I really, really love Susie and Noelle's scenes during the Holiday Manor segments of chapter 4. Not just in a yuri sense, but specifically because there's this little meta game being done with Susie, Dess, and her memory + how it's preserved and like... the Idea Of Undertale in our perception as an audience.
Deltarune is "A game you can play after you complete Undertale", right? Toby calls it that himself. It is steeped in the expectations we have from that game. Its characters. Its plot points. Its motifs. The impact it had on us as a story, both from the audience's perspective AND from the creator's. Back when chapter 1 first came out, Toby talked about his anxieties regarding this new project, and being unable to "make us feel what we felt with Undertale".
Watsonianly, in Deltarune's story, there is this insanely intricate web of small town drama and trauma and history between Hometown's residents.
...and in barges Susie.
Susie who is the new girl. Susie who doesn't know anyone. Susie who has no respect or attachment to the "mythology" of Hometown, both in a religious sense and in the sense of the history of the people who live there.
Susie who, in the manor, says she "never played the original dragon blazers". Only Dragon Blazers 2.
To me she feels like a sort of implicit allegory for the new Deltarune fan? The one with ZERO attachment to Undertale. Because they never played it or because they played it afterwards. The one experiencing THIS story for its OWN sake.
She's unshackled by the core theme of nostalgia that binds every other character, because the objects that inspire it in Kris or Noelle or Hometown as a whole, they mean nothing to her. They hold no sacredness, no significance. So she tramples over them. A sort of desecration through cluelessness.
Which is EXACTLY what she does with Dess' memory! With her room, kept perfectly still and unchanged in the years since she disappeared, her guitar shoved in the closet to gather dust.
These are objects that MEAN something, that hold an incredible significance, to Noelle and to Carol and what and who they lost. They're something that (presumably) Carol preserved in an obsessive need to hold onto everything left of her daughter.
And it stagnates. It's frozen. It's no less dead, just because it is preserved.
...and it's precisely by desecrating that reverence that Susie is able to breathe new life into it. To create new connections with Noelle. To quite literally Make Art.
Waltzing into Dess' time-frozen room, not giving a fuck, plopping down against her bed waiting for us to make noise. You can see Noelle warn her to leave the room untouched, but she follows her shortly after. The ice melts.
Later, grabbing the guitar. playing it (badly!) but playing it for the first time in actual years. Making Noelle laugh. Reminding her of her sister.
It... kinda reminds me of the reverence we as an audience have for Undertale as the original source material.
Think about it. Didn't Toby have to calm everyone down when he released chapter 1 and reassure us that playing Deltarune would leave the ending we got for undertale untouched? Because people would be preventing themselves from interfacing and experiencing and CONNECTING with a new story, with a new piece of art, out of fear of it affecting... the one they'd already experienced. the one in the past, the one they'd already finished and closed and left to sit untouched on their desktops ever since.
This aspect of Susie is the thematic beating heart of chapter 4. It's the potential, the fire Gerson sees burning in her eyes.
And it ties back to Susie's own trauma and abuse and her being forcefully cast as the villain. Someone bad, broken, not good enough. Someone who should keep her nose out of things outside of her range.
Her confrontation with Carol when she snatches the guitar from her hands... sure she might not know the history/the context/the """sacred texts""", and that CAN isolate her and negatively affect her ability to navigate the social situations in Hometown (and allegorically her artistic output. she can't play the guitar, the piano, or write all that well), but she HAS value. Her perspective has value just by virtue of being new, original, revolutionary, her own, something SHE and only she can bring to the table. And those can improve through practice, dedication, and support. Ralsei himself, while well intentioned, makes the same mistake by shutting her healing skills down.
Total knowledge and reverence for Dess' memory and the past has frozen the Holiday family (and Hometown as a whole) in the past. It's locked them in stasis. they know how things were. they know how things "should be". they cannot deviate. every week they worship a prophecy that dictates their past, present and future.
"Only then will the worlds will be SAVED". But should that really be the goal...? When you save a game, you preserve the things you've already done in it. The only thing you can do is overwrite it or start again. It's an inherently cryogenic process.
...In the game MOTHER 3, The Dragon is a mythological creature slumbering under the crust of the earth, kept in its sleep through 7 magic needles. The needles can only be removed by someone who knows the move PK Love, when its power is needed. Once the last needle is removed, the Dragon will follow the heart of this person, good or bad, by bringing on the apocalypse and destroying the world.
I knew there was definitely a bit of meta commentary and connections going on between Susie acting a lot like Dess used to, beating up Darkners like Dess didn't care for her instruments, being fiercely defensive of her friends, playing piano but giving up because she wasn't good at it, and hell even literally playing Dess's guitar It said something about how Susie is starting to fill the hole that Dess left behind and helping Noelle and Kris, and hopefully eventually the entire town, move on from it. And of course her being the only one in the dark (heh) about the prophecy also places her in this unique position as the new girl, out of place, kicked around and yet the best person to make a change.
But I LOVE the idea that she literally represents a new Deltarune player, someone who's never seen Undertale and doesn't see how "sacred" Toby's work is, how important it is to be kind, to see everything, to treat these characters like an art piece rather than... a game. A story. A new experience. There's something both us and the town can learn from her naïve hope and I think that's beautiful. Maybe we should break the rules a little!
Also you can kill me for this but I think Sans and Toriel at the end of Ch4 also connects to this. Obviously from an in-world perspective it does just kinda suck seeing your mom inappropriately drunk and inviting a love interest into your home. It is perfectly normal for a kid to feel uncomfortable about that, but ultimately that discomfort largely stems from a fear of change.
Sans barged in similarly to Susie. He's the new guy in town, even more recent than Susie (though somehow fitting in perfectly - something he's noted for being good at doing in Undertale). The new guy who starts to help Toriel move on from Asgore and find love, who shatters the norm and stakes his claim in Kris's home. And yeah that change is uncomfortable, but maybe it'll ultimately be a good thing for Kris, who clearly has their own issues moving on beyond just their parents' divorce, to start to accept change. That's probably why Sans and Susie have such good chemistry with him trolling her.
That also probably connects back to Gerson? And the way Susie's developed beyond Dess's character. While yes she doesn't hold the Darkners as sacred and important because of some nostalgia and past connections to them, she DOES find importance and connection to them in the present, in her experiences with them in Dark World.
That culminates with Gerson, who's not just a Darkner, but a dead lightner. A person she cares for so much that she actually does make a Dark World in hopes of bringing him back, in preserving his image and being able to stay with him just a bit longer. And it ultimately backfires. Because she only knows him as he is, not as he was. Because she needs to keep moving forward.
There is no place in the past for the girl with hope crossed on her heart.
The gall to call op naive about sa because you couldn't bother to fully read the post is fucking astounding, all that because of a reading -that the creator themselves didn't fucking like and changes the scene it came from-you like, you can read it homether you want sure, but think for a moment why calling a trans character a rapist is a bad thing, please think for a moment about where that comes from, think about what this is insinuating
My heart hurts for the people who are affected by sa, it's horrific, but please, think for a moment why spreading a reading of trans character raping somebody isn't the smartest thing, especially with all the rampant transphobia already going around the world
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but please at least read something fully before disagreeing with somebody, cool your head for a moment and just reread what you're replying to so you respond to what they actually said instead of what your righteous anger driven brain read
I'd like the clarify that I did follow up kirbyofstars with a much better articulated post that explained my thoughts on their accusations in a much more level headed manner. I admit my first reply was a bit knee-jerk and I apologize for that, however after my second reply they proceeded to insult and block me, which makes it pretty clear that they are not open to discussion on this subject, which is unfortunate.
I'm going to make my point clear though. I think the interpretation of this scene as possibly transmysogynistic is actually very interesting and opens up some uncomfortable discussion of the narrative. (I detailed more of that in my last reply to kirby.) But if you dare use that as an excuse to insult sa victims who saw themselves in that weird route scene, people who correctly interpreted an allegory Toby clearly meant to write (just not literally), then you are a shitty person that just wants to act like your experiences matter more than others. I don't even use Tumblr that much anymore, but with how disgusting of a take kirby had and how many people agreed with them I could not let that slide.
If op simply wanted to call out the people who were actually blaming and calling Kris a rapist for this scene (which is a VERY small amount of people), they should've said so. If they were angry with Toby for a writing a nb character as forced to rape a lesbian character (again, not actually, just metaphorically), they should've said so. But as worded it's clear their post and those who agree with them was fueled by nothing more than hate and a complete lack of empathy towards people who, due to their own personal experiences, understood this scene far more than anyone should have to.
Finally I'd just like to point out how rediculously and obviously looking for conflict kirby's concerns were. I mean, if you're actually worried about this scene spreading transmysogyny, you need to think for a second. If you're a transphobic Deltarune fan, you don't see Kris as nb, and there's a good chance you don't think Noelle's lesbian either. A miniscule amount of you will pick up on the egg man room possibly implying Kris is amab. Deltarune is NOT a game that caters to bigots, no one that already correctly interpets Kris and Noelle's characters and identities is going to find actual transmysogyny in this scene.
And for those that still do, that's why Toby changed the flower imagery, to make the allgeory less literal and ensure that Kris did not literally rape Noelle. Even if you still think it comes off that way, the fact is the player is forcing this to happen. This is not "trans person rapes a lesbian". This is "You, yes you the person playing this game, just made someone (metaphorically) rape someone". The blame is on the player, not Kris, who is just as much as a victim in this scenario. And frankly kirby's complete dismissal of the player's involvment in the allegory as nonsensical is just gross and demeaning.
So with how miniscule an impact this scene has towards transmysogyny in mind, why are you as a person deciding to take this scene that is so representative of rape and resonates with so many sa victims, and finding the one way you can make it about you?
And if you still want to be mad about this scene, as rediculous as I think that is, direct that anger at Toby. Like I said before, he's the one who wrote the scene that way. Don't attack sa victims who merely picked up on the message. It's just selfish.
obligatory I Am A CSA Survivor disclaimer here. holy shit how does nobody see the reading of the thorn ring as a metaphor for a nonbinary character doing penetrative rape towards a lesbian as like. Horrifyingly transmisogynistic. Can anyone hear me.
“but survivors of CSA deserve to see themselves represented!!!” awesome can you stop for a minute and fucking think with your brain as to why this is not a reading of the situation that Toby intended or wanted to encourage.
Holy shit what a grossly naive and selfish thing to say about sa survivors seeing themselves in Noelle and understanding the very intentional subtext of this scene. What is wrong with you.
I have experienced SA firsthand at the hands of a biological parent; this is not a subject I am “naïve” about. I am asking people to consider the transphobic and specifically transmisogynistic implications of a nonbinary trans character (who is heavily implied to be transitioning from being assigned male at birth, if we take the Chapter 3 egg room into account) being forced to partake in an act of penetrative rape toward a lesbian.
You choosing to be offended over something that isn't there as way to insult and demean other sa victims is severely diminishing the importance of these thematics. I'm sorry that happened to you, but it does not give you a right to treat other survivors like this.
You are being far more transmysoginistic than anything that Toby ever wrote and sa survivors ever interpreted by choosing to see this scene as offensive for daring to portray rape because of Kris's identity. You are doing no good in the world by attacking people for not doing representation the right way to you, and giving the ACTUAL transmysogynistic people (as well as other bigots) more fuel.
Besides, Snowgrave is as much about erasing Kris's identity as it is Noelle's, and heavily implies that you are forcing this nb kid into a traditionally masculinr role and their lesbian friend into a straight relationship with them. No one seriously interpreting this scene still thinks Kris literally sa'd Noelle, but the horror of the player forcing them to do these things is clearly an allegory for sa. The blame is on the player, not Kris. If you'd bother to analyze your own interpretation, you might have realized this. Instead, you chose to be offended, and attack anyone for daring to pick up this subtext.
And if you still want to be mad about it, have some self awareness and turn it towards Toby, instead of the people correctly interpreting his writing.
obligatory I Am A CSA Survivor disclaimer here. holy shit how does nobody see the reading of the thorn ring as a metaphor for a nonbinary character doing penetrative rape towards a lesbian as like. Horrifyingly transmisogynistic. Can anyone hear me.
“but survivors of CSA deserve to see themselves represented!!!” awesome can you stop for a minute and fucking think with your brain as to why this is not a reading of the situation that Toby intended or wanted to encourage.
Holy shit what a grossly naive and selfish thing to say about sa survivors seeing themselves in Noelle and understanding the very intentional subtext of this scene. What is wrong with you.
Thank you to @pukeseven for helping with dialogue.
Link, green Addi, belongs to @pukeseven
Iris, dark purple Addi, belongs to @/VINCEPTION on Twitter
What is actually happening is Click is slowly dying inside the Freezering, his body goes into a coma and his memories and final emotions make him experience these hallucinations, thinking he’s an 80s yuppie, until he finally goes braindead
A fun discovery I made while researching Snowgrave for my AU: There's still an Addison in Castle Town post-Snowgrave. And it's Blue. Still got the Spammequin dressed in Ralsei's clothes, doesn't say anything different, but really makes ya wonder... *why did they still come?*
For my snowgrave comic I just imagined it could be a different blue addison but here have my take on it:
I find it funny whenever people abbreviate non-binary as nb because "nb" is the shorthand notation I use in sheet music to remind myself not to take a breath in certain places, otherwise it ruins the flow between two notes.
So whenever I see someone use nb I'm just like, "Ah yes, the breathless ones."
Awww love the detail that Hero and Aubrey are automatically worried, Kel calmly comforts Sunny, and Basil starts happily tearing up too because he probably knows exactly how Sunny feels.
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