Thoughts On Poldark

Poldark book and Tv show enthusiast with a point of view.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Debbie Horsefield on adapting the Poldark books to a television series.

“When you write your own original material nobody knows what it is until it’s there, until it exists. So nobody has any preconceived ideas about what it ought to be.”

“Everybody has their own unique take on what the real version of something should be.”

Debbie Horsefield (From Debbie Horsefield -Remembering Poldark aired 9th July BBC4

Any thoughts from book readers on Debbie’s version versus Winston Graham’s?

[thoughtsonpoldark]

'Ross had suddenly come upon them, travel-dusty and scarred, appearing without warning, from America, from Winchester, from Truro to remind her of her childish promise, like the re-emergence of someone dead.''

Elizabeth’s thoughts - First edition ‘Demelza’ Chapter six.

Ross and Elizabeth's Sham Childish Love! A Past and Mistaken Identity

How Ross Poldark's childish love of Elizabeth is the root of his sham desire of her since they both grew up and changed when they were long

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Thank you for taking this question. In the Twisted Sword Valentine has approached Ross, the conversation is leading up to the question is Ross his father. Ross sees the question coming and thinks:

'This unsought meeting stung him emotionally, made him feel as if the central fact of his whole existence, the hub from which all the spokes of his later experience led away, lay in the few minutes of anger and lust and overpowering frustration from which Valentine could have been born.'

I need your insight on 'the central fact of his whole existance, the hub from which all the spokes of his later existance led away'. I dont understand at all. I don't know how to phrase my confusion. I'm hoping for your interpretation. What is Ross thinking?

I cannot thank you enough for you essays. They are immensely helpful and appreciated.

Hi there,

I agree that text that you have selected here may seem to include dramatic or rather flamboyant word choice and imagery and actually it would make more sense to me if it was Ross thinking of Valentine and therefore of 'the central fact of Valentine's whole existence..... all the spokes of Valentine's later experience led away,,,,,,,' However it reads that he is speaking of himself and while I recognise that for Ross, Valentine's existence and his meeting with Elizabeth in 'The Four Swans' where Elizabeth indicated he may be Valentine's father, was a massive issue for him to carry thereafter, I think it may seem extreme for Ross to think of his night with Elizabeth, his conduct and the possible conception of Valentine then as the central fact of his (Ross's) whole existence etc. Or perhaps I am wrong and not placing enough weight on Valentine's significance to him.

I do take the view that this passage is essentially about the weight of guilt and the shadow on Ross's life of the unknown paternity question that Ross will have carried around over the last 19 years at that time (from 1996 when he met Elizabeth at the Church Yard). He will have had the fact that he could possibly be the father of this boy turned man on his mind over the years, and earlier in the passage it states that he watched Valentine from afar and what he had seen and heard of Valentine was 'unfavourable'. It was an uncomfortable matter and there was that scene in The Miller's Dance where Verity innocently suggested to Ross that Valentine looked like him and then she changed her mind about that linking him to Ross's father instead because of his bad behaviour and then discussing how deeply troubled Valentine was. Ross then had the conflict of not wanting to upset Demelza about this issue and generally avoided Valentine over the years. However just before the extract you cited there is the text that says 'But too seldom had he (Ross) faced the facts of his own responsibility, psychological or actual, for the situation as it had come about.' By then he knew Valentine did not get on with George. He probably heavily suspected that he was Valentine's father and was responsible for his issues with his putative father (George) and with how he had turned out.

So I would say that this passage is Ross being more honest with himself that Valentine was, more than likely his son, that he was to blame for the tragedy and trauma that Valentine had experienced because of his attack on Elizabeth and that over the years he had not accepted responsibility for this and continued to abandon/ignore the problem and a person who may have been his son. He was no longer in avoidance or denial mode. If this Valentine issue was a 'spoke' in Ross's later existence then that is because it was a dark unresolved complicated by ignored issue in his life which particularly if Valentine was indeed his then it was a central matter to his life. An unclaimed /secret child living in the area would be and at the same time it was a sore spot or sharp pain for both him and his family (Nampara household), which I would say is reflected in the ‘spoke’ analogy. That would include the fact that there was hurtful gossip that he was Valentine’s father. As Valentine encroached on his family Ross and Demelza had to be shifty in trying to ensure Valentine did not become too friendly with Clowance when he stated socialising with them without explaining to Jeremy and Valentine why they wanted them to keep their distance from him.

I am not sure if this even touches your confusion but that is how I interpret this text overall and we see that in the next book Ross no longer shirks on his responsibility to Valentine and tries to help him.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

I have always thought that Ross took Elizabeth against her will but I cannot reconcile that with the following passage.

‘…I came to recognize things which no doubt I should have had common sense and insight enough to have known without the experience but did not. One is that if you bring an idealized relationship down to the level of an ordinary one, it isn’t always the ordinary one that suffers. For a time, after that night, things were upside down – for a time nothing came clear. When it did, when it began to, the one sure feeling that stood out was that my true and real love was not for her but for you.’

…

‘May I ask a question?’

‘Of course.’

‘How did you come to feel that, Ross? What persuaded you of it? I mean, the experience itself can’t hardly have been unpleasant.’

‘What experience?’

‘Of making love to Elizabeth.’

‘No … far from it.’ He hesitated, a little put out. ‘But I wasn’t seeking just pleasure. I was – I suppose in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I’d found in you, and it was not there. For me it was not there.’

How do you reconcile that he found the encounter pleasurable?

And that he was “seeking pleasure”. Does that mean he went to Elizabeth intending to make love?

Does he ever confess to Demelza that he took Elizabeth violently later in the saga?

Hi there,

I guess this is all about Ross's pleasure during his night with Elizabeth, the significance, if he could have felt this in a scenario of taking Elizabeth against her will and if it was premeditated on that 9th May.

Pleasure

I think that the issue of pleasure for this incident speaks to the physical side of Ross's experience with Elizabeth. Not the emotional side (which is crucial). I am also mindful that while you ask how do I reconcile that Ross was 'seeking pleasure' in sleeping with Elizabeth, with the idea that he forced her against his will, the text has him saying that he was 'not just seeking pleasure' and we should also recognise that there was an element of opportunism in the incident too.

What man is going to pursue or force sex with a woman he fancies without thinking, expecting and wanting this to be pleasurable? The pleasure could be derived from a romantic sensuous experience or two people having angry sex or in Ross's case from him expunging his pent up anger, lust and the overwhelming frustration. These were the emotions that Ross later reflected was his feeling at the time in the few minutes he determined Valentine was conceived. Then, in addition to that he was forcing himself on a woman he fancied, found attractive and had desired and wanted for so long. Without a thought for his wife in his head at the time, I think that of course he would think the sexual experience would be pleasurable. Also remember his state of mind at the time had him say to Elizabeth "Life is an illusion...Let us make the most of the shadows" So in that moment he had a similar feeling that Demelza had with Hugh Armitage of escapism and not being in the real world. His comment suggested that they should take the opportunity to do something forbidden but enjoyable and he was determined to follow through with this irrespective of Elizabeth's consent as he took her to the bed.

The physical experience of arousal and release of frustration would have been be pleasurable to Ross as he forced himself because of a number of factors. For instance, it is indicated in the book that though Elizabeth initially resisted, that she did not keep this up. Neither did the text suggest that she reciprocated. In a case of acquaintance rape (and even stranger rape), of the five F's Elizabeth may have flopped or frozen, so that Ross was not in a situation that he was fighting and struggling with Elizabeth throughout. Now that would not have been pleasant for him! But it would explain why contrary to Elizabeth's private thoughts post incident, he considered that 'in the end' it was not so much against her will. This therefore would have enabled Ross even more so to have had a pleasurable physical experience as most men do with the physical aspect of sex and how that feels. However, I do not think this is quite as it would have been if Elizabeth did what Demelza did with Captain McNeil where she fought with him, bit and pushed him away etc. That does not seem to have been the case for Ross from Elizabeth.

Again it is important to note Ross's state of mind at the time. Before Ross took Elizabeth to the bed he was not even listening to her pleas. He tuned her out. He likely was in his own world during those few minutes of initially forcing his way on Elizabeth while eventually finding no resistance so he could continue with ease and the unpleasantness of a fight and an obvious show of disgust from Elizabeth. While he may then have been only half aware of what Elizabeth was doing (or not doing) and then Ross would surely have experienced the arousal and release that secures the pleasure in sex on a physical level. It is not hard to think of a man still feeling pleasure with a woman who was barely participating. Reverend Whitworth seemed to. This is not just with Morwenna but also his previous wife. For him it was self gratification. Ross's selfishness in self gratification was probably more so because of a narrowminded anger and frustration driving him at the time.

But I do think the pleasure stopped for Ross there at the release/arousal from sex. Once the red mist had clear for him I believe that in his consciousness he was confused, unsure and felt discomfort in what he had just done, since it was essentially a major loss of temper and control. Therefore I think it is somewhat misleading to label the experience as pleasurable without it being more nuance. I would say the pleasure he felt was limited to that physical arousal and the release of frustration only. However in Ross's saner mind it was not pleasurable on an emotional level. Ross was actually distressed and Winston Graham narrated that ever since he left that night he was in torment. Supposedly because of the magnitude of his action which had dawned on him, perhaps immediately afterwards. For him that will have included the likely impact on him and both women. Despite his admission to Demelza of finding the sex pleasured him, he never did look back on the night as romantic with Elizabeth but one where he did something offensive on impulse.

Premeditation

I am very confident in my view that Ross did not go to see Elizabeth that night intending to sleep with her (even though Demelza believed this is what would happen). He wanted to stop the wedding and during the discussion with Elizabeth he offered to leave if she admitted that she did not love George. It was only her claim that she loved George to distraction that triggered Ross to an angry response. Otherwise if she had answered in a way that was less triggering for him (and true- since he knew she was lying), he may then have left. This means that sleeping with Elizabeth was not Ross's intention. Also part of Ross's discussion with Elizabeth was to suggest that she could marry any one else but George. So this again suggests that possession or a the taking of Elizabeth for himself was indeed not the intention and thus not premeditated. Instead he wanted to explore other options for Elizabeth that did not include her going ahead with marrying George.

Another indication that Ross did not intend to take Elizabeth is where the text narrated Ross's later reflections that when he broke in to Elizabeth's house to find a solution to the matter, that '.....the thing had blown up like a squall in his brain; there had been no time for calculated motives or reasoned intentions. Reason came after and reason was still out of it's depth.' I think this makes it clear his forcing himself on Elizabeth was not premeditated, that it was a loss of reason that made him do what he did and that things had got out of hand to be something he could not have anticipated. He also did think that he could not explain what was 'impossible' of him to do, to Demelza. That again supports the idea that he had not forward planned his attack / unfaithfulness.

Pleasure Vs Emotions

I do easily reconcile the first paragraph that you extracted to Ross's actions and even his experience of physical pleasure. This is because that first passage you listed focuses on feelings over the physical pleasure.

It is clear the incident with Elizabeth was a crucible for Ross to face up to the issue of his feelings (and emotional connection) for the two women by way of comparison, and this is what he was trying to do afterwards. Ross is helped by his self soothing that although he took Elizabeth against his will, he was satisfied she did not treat him like the devil and it may not have been so much against her will in the end. So Ross was not looking at the night as one of rape. The percentage of male perpetrators of acquaintance rape who do not see what happened as rape is very high. Naturally that is especially if the lady did not resist, or did not in the end (capitulation). So Ross is just viewing this incident primarily as a night of unfaithfulness with a bit of aggression to start with and a woman who wanted it anyway. The text did say that in the very near aftermath 'He could not evaluate his feelings yet......' and that he found that in his deliberations 'All his old values had been overthrown and he found himself groping for new ones. As yet they were not to be discovered.' I see that he was thinking about what the two women meant to him and eventually he explained well to Demelza that he had worked out his values, which I think were qualities, shared principles and character/personality that meant so much to him in a woman, lover, friend, wife. That led him to feeling he had inflated Elizabeth's value when perhaps realising in his soul searching that Elizabeth did not have those things. Personally I believe that Ross had had fleeting thoughts of doubt on Elizabeth beforehand. For instance when he thought in 'Jeremy Poldark' that maybe if he had got married to Elizabeth, that they would not be happy together because elements of their character would make life difficult.

Anyway, the point is that Ross did not place great value on the physical pleasure of sleeping with Elizabeth over the emotion he lacked for her in the end and had for Demelza. It was the emotional connection. He did not find this in intimacy with Elizabeth. Ross had this attitude about sex for long before and though he had been pleasured by Margaret in the first book in order to help him get over or move on from Elizabeth, he resumed his celibacy after it since he did not feel that this lustful experience was helpful and he was not interested in that kind of pleasure which he found empty. Ross also once told Demelza in 'The Stranger From The Sea' that sex with her (Demelza) after falling in love with her was '....was different....Instead of just the physical thing...Without emotion there's nothing, is there. Nothing worth recalling. A shabby exercise. Thank God it's never been that between us since.' So I do think that the pleasure Ross experienced in sex with Elizabeth (as with Margaret) is not something to focus or dwell over, since for him it was about the emotion and as stated I really don't think he emotionally connected with Elizabeth when he slept with her. He no longer desired her afterwards.

I have actually just done an essay about a note in Winston Graham's archived story planning notes where in his own handwriting he wrote that 'Before Elizabeth marries George Ross has his way with her ....Ross finds that his desire for Elizabeth is a sham.' I think that this outlook from the author about the significance of Ross's night with Elizabeth helps with understanding, If you want to check out the whole essay it is here Ross Poldark’s Fall Out Of Love With Elizabeth (Winston Graham's Notes Of Ross's Sham Desire) | Thoughts On Poldark

I don't think Ross was explicit with Demelza about how he took Elizabeth. He found it uncomfortable discussing his infidelity with her as he admitted after their shopping trip together when they were essentially not together but civil. He said "I think there is an etiquette even in adultery, and I cannot bring myself to discuss one woman with another, ..." So he never likely to go into detail and ideally would have tried to avoid as much as he could including the bad bit of his behaviour. Also Ross was taken aback when Demelza asked him to comment about the pleasure of the physical act with Elizabeth. After they got into an argument and Demelza nearly left him he preferred to avoid conversation about Elizabeth thereafter lest they end up in a similar argument where she might twist his words.

It seems that Demelza however guessed that there was force involved in Ross's night with Elizabeth but maybe not exactly how violent. She did make a comment to Ross implying that he had probably taken Elizabeth by surprised and also supposing that Elizabeth may not have performed to the best of her ability for that reason. Also thinking Elizabeth not to be a light woman Demelza supposed that Elizabeth was conflicted by her promise and engagement to George so she seemed to have envisioned that while Ross was highly charged Elizabeth may not have been as committed in the act. Perhaps passive (as I believe she was indeed). Demelza again showed that she was conscious of there being some force involved in the incident as in 'The Loving Cup' she encouraged Jeremy to reject Ross's advice on how to get Cuby and told Jeremy that he could not just go over and 'take' a woman as Ross had suggested.

I hope this response has given you some food for thought.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Love your analysis on Poldark.  Just saw your reply to ‘’why did Ross spend the whole night with Elizabeth’’. 

I personally don’t think he spent the night. Ross, as we have come to know him so far up until this point in the story (and after) is a man of action, movement, so the idea of him just spending a few hours on his back, in silence, next to Elizabeth, it’s just not something I can imagine, nor could I imagine Elizabeth do the same, without even as much as :’’What the hell???’’.  Everytime when Ross goes through emotional turmoil we see him ‘’do’’ something (when he comes back from America and he is heartbroken, he works his butt off, when Julia dies, he instigates a riot, when the Demelza and Hugh affair happens, he goes to London, when Elizabeth dies, he goes for a walk, even his night with Elizabeth, etc etc).  

As you have astutely pointed out, we don’t know when Ross left Trenwith (only when he got home). ‘’The early hours of the morning’’, when he left, is defined as ‘’between twelve o'clock at night and the time when the sun rises’’. The sun rises at 5 in May, which is the time Ross got home. It is not improbable that he had left Elizabeth as soon as the ‘’thing’’was over and went for an aimless walk to settle his ‘’demons’’ (Ross needs to do something).  I believe that the scene  in the series, after that night, may be one of the few things Debbie actually nailed. The awkwardness, the discomfort, him eager to leave the room, her expecting ‘’something’’. Again, not at all improbable that after the fact, Ross took a few minutes to regroup, get dressed and leave. ’’Gotta go’’ What now? ‘’ I don’t know, we’’ll talk’’ sounds like something that may have happened given that we know for a fact that they never discusses their feelings, what had happened or what will happen next. 

Elizabeth’s expectation for Ross to return, though admittedly something she would expect given she is a very vain woman and I don’t think she had any doubt that Ross would leave Demelza and come back to her (or at least propose it), looks like it’s born out of more than him not showing up, maybe it came because of a commitment (either said or implied) from Ross that he would return. We also see this in Ross, who struggles with himself not going to Trenwith because, even though it’s the right thing to do, his heart is just not in that place. This also brings me to the Sawle Church meeting a few years later, when he tells Elizabeth ’’ I could not come to you again’’. Though I know he tried to calm Elizabeth as she was, rightfully so, angry, the way he says it, again, makes me think that he somehow promised he would come back and he’s trying to explain himself, by lying, to make her feel better and to get the focus on the important issue, which was Valentine.

But I have to admit I am so intrigued and utterly amused (I know, I’m the worst!) by Winston’s stubbornness at providing any details when it comes to Elizabeth and Ross. We don’t know how they met, though he spends pages describing Ross and Demelza’s encounters, we don’t know how he fell in love with Elizabeth, though we get 10 pages of the Pilchards catch describing how Ross falls in love with Demelza, etc etc. He really doesn’t want to give any sort of romantic or ‘special’ characteristics to their relationship, does he? And this goes on throughout the saga, even at the end of Bella, Elizabeth is simply qualified as the woman who ‘’married George’’ while Demelza is the woman that ‘’meant more to him than any other’’. I’m going off on a tangent, sorry. 

Hi there,

I just wanted to say on this old matter that I agree with much of what you have written here and your reasoning would be sound to me with issues contradicting it on the text. In fact I have probably previously taken the same view that Ross did not stay the night with Elizabeth and that perhaps he fell asleep, left and went for a walk etc. However on reflection I cannot get around the text which says that he left the house in the early hours in the morning having arrived before 11pm.

While I agree that Ross's reaction is normally to strike and then run and I also think the depiction of him leaving Elizabeth awkwardly would seem like what might have happened when he did leave, what about the missing hours? They only had sex once. I believe that contradicts the suggestion that on this occasion he struck and then ran.

The 70s depicted the aftermath differently. This is all they showed below. I did not cover the missing hours and like you say it is hard to imagine that stayed up in silence for hours.

So my starting point is to accept that Ross did not leave straightaway. Neither do I believe that they both sat in silence.

Ross's post incident thoughts were that he did not know Elizabeth's feelings and so I deduce from that that any discussion they had was scant, surface or did not explore the '"what now?", "how do we feel?". and what they both wanted now.

Ross saying that he was looking for what he found in Demelza with Elizabeth seems a strange thing to say when comparing his romantic marital lovemaking with a 10 minute anger fuelled forceful sex session that he then left from straightaway. Especially, when Ross had previously mentioned that there was more to a relationship than the physical. If there was just sex and no attempt to emotionally connect with Elizabeth afterwards (even through awkward dialogue) then on what basis could he have made that comparison fairly. So the comment he made makes me think he must have spent a bit more time with Elizabeth after the sex and this fits with the text that he left hours later.

Then if Ross took Elizabeth by force and left straightaway I would imagine that this would be an added feature that they would both think about in their post incident thoughts as particularly egregious and it would have been mentioned when they met again. Elizabeth mentioned he came in like a devil but did not mention that he just left that way too.

I do think that leaving straight away is more typical of stranger rape scenario rather than acquaintance rape. I think generally this is less likely with acquaintance rape because there is a relationship there. This is especially when the woman may have not resisted or may have given up resisting during the course of the sex. There is also the dynamic of the woman feeling partly to blame - whether in this case it was because Elizabeth knew marrying George was hurtful to Ross and she had been dishonest beforehand or because she thought (wrongly) that she was to blame for aggravating Ross with her come backs before he took her by force. With Ross feeling that the sex was not so much against Elizabeth's will in the end, that too may have changed the dynamic where Ross may then have been less likely to want to flee and abandon her so rudely. That would be a further disrespect. After Ross's red mist had gone I imagine that he may have been shocked, quite apologetic, there may have been some talk around that, about needing time to think but nothing committal so that neither of them had closure on where the other person was at. Hence Ross making a promise to return could apply in this scenario or in a scenario of him leaving immediately.

Ultimately this is all guess work because as you say Winston Graham did not give us hardly anything to go on. While I do not necessarily think Ross left straightaway I struggle with the idea of him staying for hours afterwards and I cannot find any context or clues as to how this time will have been filled. So I think the mystery allows open season on speculations and that Winston Graham intended it that way. This is particularly if he was cautious on how anything he said would impact the readers view on whether this was a rape or not. I am aware many feel it was not. If he was clearer about the missing hours and what was done during them this would greatly influence the reader maybe rightly or wrongly on this issue.

I agree with you also about Winston Graham's reluctance to provide any romantic context and background to Ross and Elizabeth's relationship and there is no reference as far as I am aware of Elizabeth thinking of Ross romantically. Even when she thinks of how he looks, references is made to his bony face but she does not ascribe any romantic ideas to him such as even that he look handsome or that he made her feel something positive. It is therefore hard to understand on what basis she loved him (if she did) or what was the basis for her fondness of him. In fact there is more in the book about the aspects of George that she liked and respected. Not much though! I think there was a character bias from Winston Graham against Elizabeth and that he actually gave Ross and Elizabeth an anti romantic profile as a couple because he did not believe in them and because he operated on the basis that she was not a nice character and was presenting as an ideal rather than truly being one. On that basis perhaps it was not in him to write this but he seemed not to give Elizabeth a romantic nature but rather a pragmatic one.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

At the Trevanance party, Elizabeth confesses to Ross that she did not think him dead but that she loved Francis more. So why does Ross, many years later, tell Geoffrey Charles, Valentine and his kids that Elizabeth married Francis because she thought him dead? Or that Elizabeth’s mother influenced her to marry Francis?

And why do you think Ross never confronts Elizabeth about her duplicity, nurturing and hiding a relationship that obviously had enough foundation to result in a marriage proposal from his greatest enemy?

Hey there,

Ross essentially lied about why Elizabeth chose Francis over him because of wounded pride and arrogance.

As you imply Ross did know the real reason Elizabeth married Francis instead of waiting for him. Actually it wasn't just at the Trevanance party that Ross got an indication of why Elizabeth did not wait for him. When Verity visited him after his return, she was trying to console him about losing Elizabeth but admitted that when she first met Francis "It was just one of those things that happen. You do not argue with the clouds or the rain or the lighting...it came from outside them. I know- Francis and he could not help himself." So the first impression she gave Ross was that Francis and Elizabeth were powerfully attracted to each other and further that Elizabeth had told Francis that she was 'friendly' with Ross. Verity did then say that afterwards there was the rumour he had been killed. So the general impression first and foremost was that Elizabeth had fallen for Francis and the rumour was just another issue which relinquished Elizabeth of her guilt in pursuing another man and not waiting for Ross. Then there was Ross's meeting with Elizabeth in that post Easter week 6 months later in 1784. That was after Ross had just met Demelza and came to the house to see Uncle Charles for advice but met Elizabeth instead. This is when Ross lost control and confronted her about how upset he was about what she had done. Despite Verity informing him of the rumour he did not approach the conversation as if he believed that was the reason for her not waiting for him. There is a fuller text of their conversation in the first edition of the first book and Ross's first point to Elizabeth in his upset was that he had been devoted to only her while he was at war and trusted that she felt the same as he did but that he had clearly made an error. He did say resentfully that she had the right to choose who she wanted as a husband and suggested that 'childish promises' didn't have an enduring quality. So he appreciated this was Elizabeth's preference and free choice. Elizabeth's response showed that the primary reason for choosing Francis was indeed because "You went away and I met Francis. I loved him. I had grown up. We could not be happy together, we are are not the right temperament to blend, to live in amity. with Francis it was different." Again it was only as an add on that she then said "Then came the word that you were dead." So again that was just an additional factor to a decision which she had already made in preference of Francis over Ross. Further she told Ross she was just fond of him (Ross) and they had a boy-girl attachment. Don't forget that Elizabeth had previously told Ross on her wedding day that she had made the decision to marry Francis willingly and not because of her mother. Neither did she mention her mother/parents as a factor when she spoke to him at the Trevanaunce party.

I think that despite knowing full well that Elizabeth married Francis because at the time she preferred him and they fell in love, Ross is an arrogant man with some ego and since there was a byline raised in previous discussions about this rumour of him being dead, he could put that forward when speaking to third parties who would none the wiser being far removed from it. It is not an unnatural thing for people to do and after Ross had left Elizabeth after that confrontation there was reference to his self esteem. There was an element of wounded pride and what arrogant man will be totally honest in such a situation when asked why the woman they loved and waited for to marry, had married someone else and admit it was because they were second best? Especially when they can put forward a half truth or factor that had been raise that over the years they may have tried to focus on as being more significant than it was ever claimed to be. It is cognitive dissonance and self soothing over so many years . Some people get tempted to reframe a disappointment to one that helps them cope better with it and also gives the other person (Elizabeth) the benefit of the doubt. Or otherwise it was a skewing of the truth to save face and not look so pitiful to whoever he was talking to.

Why did Ross not confront Elizabeth about how she was secretly courted by George Warleggan?

As for confronting Elizabeth about hiding her relationship with George which was developed enough to lead to a marriage proposal, he did confront! It just went badly. Ross got the letter and marched over to Elizabeth's house at night and there was a fiery conversation which was not necessarily constructive. He clearly was not in the rational and calm state of mind to ask her for a step by step on how this proposal had come about but he did accuse her of disloyalty when he remarked that he thought she was his greatest friend. It may be that had he left when he offered to and calmed down, that they may later have had a proper conversation. Unfortunately Elizabeth saying that she loved George to distraction seemed to send Ross off and derailed the situation into violence. From that night Ross then did not really see Elizabeth for three years. He considered her a stranger and seemed to write her off now as 'George's wife' who he would forget. When they did meet by chance it was not really his place to start going on at her about her deception because his attack on her was now the dominating and overshadowing offence which was then joined by her revelation of the paternity suspicions of Valentine and how this was destroying her marriage.

I think that Ross probably did not need or want the details of Elizabeth's betrayal. Bear in mind that he had some preparation of the risk that this might happen. He thought that George's mission had been to drive a wedge between Francis and Elizabeth and him, that he had succeeded with Francis. He told Demelza that he had given Elizabeth £600 anonymously because "In trying to help Elizabeth now, he (George) is only continuing the same tactics. Although that wasn't my aim in arranging for her to get this money, it does have the effect of strengthening her hand against him." He knew that she was receiving small favours from George and after the betrayal did happen he could probably fill in the blanks that George made her a deal that the £600 Ross gave her was not enough to stop her from accepting.

After explosive initial reactions Ross later had a tendency to avoid hurting himself more in getting the details of a betrayal against him.

Indeed Ross had great difficulty coping with betrayals from those he loved. He knew/suspected that Francis had betrayed him revealing the names of the Carnemore Copper company to George. It made him so angry he attacked George at the mere suggestion of it and that this was for money. However Francis revealed to Demelza that Ross would never let Francis start a conversation on this so he could admit the details of what he had done. Ross would shut the conversation down or steer this away. Equally Ross knew Demelza had been unfaithful with Hugh Armitage yet he did not want to know the details and he never asked her for this. When she started a conversation once about how she had failed him he replied in a way so as to stop her proceeding further with this line of conversation.

It seems to me that Ross's character was one where in such personal scenarios of betrayal he preferred to protect his peace and otherwise his rage could result in an explosive emotional reaction. So I see this trait of his as a coping mechanism and him being quite insightful on this. At the same time as not knowing the details he sometimes would try to rationalise and again reframe the betrayal to something that was less hurtful. For instance he softened about Francis's betrayal thinking that Francis had suffered with his conscience in the aftermath and that he had done it because of a sudden anger over the verity elopement. After George told him it was for money it was written that '..out of some knowledge of Francis's character, he rejected it, it was the impulse to reject it which had led to the fight.' When he later stewed over it and thought about confronting Francis about that aspect of his betrayal, as a spectator to Francis and Blamey confronting each other he decided that he too would just leave it in the past and forgive Francis with some awareness that knowing the full truth would change his relationship with Francis in a way that he did not want. Equally with Demelza he decided that Demelza had betrayed him with Hugh because she had been vulnerable to Hugh's dogged persistence and even consider her as a flower blown by the wind in this situation. So I think that after the initial anger over betrayal Ross tended to think of the consequence of full knowledge, the impact this would have with the relevant relationship - he would refocus and see the good in the other person and in protection of that relationship decide to wipe the slate clean and start again (which is what he did say to Demelza in the end). The only difference with Elizabeth is that with her now being George's wife she was kind of out of reach and he chose to 'forget her' and then had some guilt for his behaviour to her.

[loveofromance]

Demelza, 1x04 | 3x02

     requested by @xxsparksxx

[thoughtsonpoldark]

What an evolution!

From an urchin to a lady.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

On World Book Day (international) it’s a pleasure to share a collection of Winston Graham’s thoughts on Poldark on thoughtsOnPoldark.Com

Winston Graham's Thoughts on Poldark (Words from the Author)

A collection of many of Winston Graham's comments on Poldark and its characters as taken from a range of interviews over the years and his m

[thoughtsonpoldark]

A Sham Desire!!!

Ross Poldark’s Fall Out Of Love With Elizabeth

(Winston Graham’s notes of Ross’s sham desire)

‘Before Elizabeth marries George Ross has his way with her ....Ross finds that his desire for Elizabeth is a sham.’

Winston Graham's handwritten story plan notes - Poldark note book 2 (Early) page166 (The Courtney Library at The Cornwall Museum)

Ross Poldark’s Fall Out Of Love With Elizabeth (Winston Graham's Notes Of Ross's Sham Desire)

Inspired by Winston Graham's archived story plan notes of Ross Poldark's sham desire of Elizabeth, how and why this shaped how he wrote the

[thoughtsonpoldark]

It’s World Book Day in the U.K. today.

Shining a light on a rare Poldark gem of Winston Graham’s. So why not read his short story ‘MEETING DEMELZA’.

What a dedication!

Meeting Demelza - A Short Story By Winston Graham

A short story called Meeting Demelza by Winston Graham the author of the Poldark saga. This was published by Simon Parker for volume one of

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Was divorce or separation a realistic option for Ross and Demelza at that time of crisis if they had wanted this?

Ross and Demelza - The Myth of An 'Impossible' Or 'Impractical' Separation

Exploring the impossibility or impracticality of Demelza and Ross Poldark divorcing or separating if they wanted to after he cheated with El

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Hello! Regarding the meeting of Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Church. I will try to be brief but it is a loaded situation….Two things were particularly disturbing to me. 1). When Ross explains to Elizabeth why he didn’t reach out to her after the May 9th incident he said, “How could I, break up your family afresh and mine?” I wish he would have used that opportunity to affirm his love and commitment to Demelza and his son Jeremy. Lost opportunity, which left me and others disappointed in his response. This also led Elizabeth to believe his choice/decision was based on responsibility and was the least disruptive. Therefore his love for Demelza and his son is not a primary factor. Both the book and the series left his remarks that way and it would have made such a difference if he answered differently, especially when his comments were then followed by a series of kisses to Elizabeth. 2). It was not one kiss, it was at least 6 kisses, with the final kiss being more than a light kiss on the lips. If he wanted to say goodbye with a kiss, he could have kissed her hand, or at best her cheek but I think those kisses, small though they were crossed the line and left the viewer with an uneasy feeling. In the series, when Demelza confronts him about his “secret meeting and his secret kisses“, she is clearly upset and is choking back tears. So disappointing….Can you share your thoughts on this as I ALWAYS respect your perspective.

Why did Ross not finally tell Elizabeth the truth that he stayed with Demelza because he preferred her and she was his real and true love?

Thanks for your ‘ask’. It is an interesting question which I probably will expand on even more over on the blog site but have written so much here anyway.

Elizabeth was the provocateur and antagonist to Ross and Demelza’s love story in those first four books where the question of who his true love really lay with seemed to drag on. I can therefore understand that Ross’s failure to tell Elizabeth that it lay with Demelza can be seen as a ‘lost opportunity’ by many people.

I suppose that my response is to say that while this is irritating Winston Graham’s book were written with some realism and the scenario that played out in this scene with Ross and Elizabeth at the Church yard was realistic if you look at the situation, the history and Ross’s objective. I have to focus on the book narrative because while the series scene does not actually do a good job of depicting this scene accurately, Ross does not mention Demelza as you would have liked him to in the book and at least that is followed in the series. The book provides a narrative and therefore presumed explanation which makes more sense as to why Ross held back with this.

Emotionally the Grave/Church yard scene was heavily loaded and this impacted on Ross's psyche and therefore his approach with Elizabeth. Secondly Ross saw Elizabeth differently to the way many

readers see Elizabeth’s character. This was with rose coloured glasses and also he was a man often blinded by enduring loyalty. There is also a third thing to consider before we even get into the scene dynamics and that is that it was never particularly in Ross’s nature to speak cold hard truths to Elizabeth. There are many examples in the book which I will not list here but which include where he would bite his lip holding back on her and where disagreed with her outlook on something and chose to say nothing to her because he did not want to offend her. So already, together with other factors it was unlikely that Ross would change that approach with her in a confrontation where he was on the backfoot because of the wrong he had done to her at their last proper meeting alone.

Ross's Goal

The key thing is that for this confrontation Ross will not have had the goal that the reader might have had for him. He would not have wanted to take an opportunity to hurt Elizabeth or to make her feel like crap that was discarded to the side like he once felt by her in preference of Francis. Definitely not in this moment of time too. Ross was hurt when she did that to him in the first book and she would have been too if he did that here and gave her the real reason for not returning to her by declaring in a major way or in passing, his love and happiness with Demelza and by implication that his feelings for Elizabeth did not compare. In fact in the circumstances in which he met Elizabeth her, this is the last thing he wanted to do. Neither would he have actually felt there was a need to flaunt his love for his wife in the way that a reader/viewer might have felt there was a need or a wish on their part for him to do.

Making amend rather than making Elizabeth upset

Remember that even if a viewer/reader is not of the view that Ross had (acquaintance) raped Elizabeth, in his own words he felt he took her against her will. Even if he self soothed by thinking that in the end it was ‘not so much’ against her will and even if he was correct with this, Ross’s bottom line was still that whatever he did to her that night he was wrong. As a result he expected her to be angry in the aftermath and that not going to see her will have added salt to her injury. So given the nature of what Ross had done to Elizabeth that night, all that was and meeting her her was a big deal and he instead had some grovelling to do.

After the violence and disrespect shown to Elizabeth, rather than rub in Elizabeth's face that his mistreatment of her was all in vain by implying that actually there could never have been a question of wanting to be with her and of leaving Demelza, this meeting was instead an 'opportunity' not to inflame her anger but to try and dampen it down and make her feel better and less rejected by him so harshly. Otherwise it could have come off, if not quite cruel, then at the very least, insensitive. Elizabeth was prone to that not Ross! Except where Ross had lost his temper, if he had a tendency to avoid offending Elizabeth he would definitely avoid that line of honesty with her here.

Seeing Elizabeth’s Hatred

‘…he expected coldness. But he did not expect this trembling anger. It startled him and shook him.’

Not depicted in the series but it's important to really appreciate that Elizabeth’s obvious anger towards Ross in the books will have influenced his already typically delicate approach with Elizabeth so that this was to be more than his typical people pleasing approach specific to Elizabeth. But no one wants to be hated so badly by someone they once loved and still care about. Yet three years after the event Ross saw Elizabeth, as Graham wrote, literally shaking with anger and hearing the trembling anger in her voice. She even told Ross that she wished he would die. That's pretty powerful as a representation of her hatred. What would the average person do when met this way and having felt beforehand that Elizabeth would never forgive him for what he did which he thought was ‘indefensible? Ross saw in her ‘..this corroding hysteria and hatred. Hatred of him.’? So he would hardly want to throw gasoline on that but instead perhaps go above and beyond to counteract that and mollify her.

The narrative confirms Ross knew he had to be cautious and mindful with his words. At one point in the book narrative he said he didn’t want to bring up old memories as “..It would hurt you the more and I’m sure do my cause with you no good.” For Ross his cause was hinted at in the text. Apart from not wanting Elizabeth's hatred to continue against him it said that  ‘As he grew older his own tendencies were to try to repair the breaches that past enmities had made.’ He knew her well enough to strike at Elizabeth's vanity to win her round. In his reflections in the next chapter he thought that he did a good job and that in explaining his approach with Elizabeth to Demelza, that he would say “I tried deliberately to show my affection for her because it sears me to find her so hostile.  I have an uneasy conscience about her for the two misdeeds I committed against her.” He was right that it worked as the narration says that he saw that some of his words made a difference and also that he saw some of the bitterest anger had gone out of her.

Another major motivation for Ross to focus on buttering up Elizabeth up was him becoming aware of the shocking reason for Elizabeth’s more heightened and unexpected level of anger as being due to an unforeseen outcome of his attack being a possible cuckoo baby and how this was causing her unhappiness in her new life through marriage problems. Again imagine him being responsible for messing up her marriage while conveying to her that after doing what he did to her which caused the unhappiness and unkindness from her husband, that he had realised he loved Demelza too much to ever leave her for Elizabeth.

I understand that it might be frustrating that Ross did not convey this message to Elizabeth but I also can see why in this tense circumstance he would recoil and be on the offensive. He had so many more reasons to try and suck up to Elizabeth. In fact while in the past she had disturbed his peace with her disclosures, he had no desire to further disturb hers. She had showed him that he had already done that. So Ross instead phased his words neutrally so that they were factual and without giving the true reason in detail why he could not break up their lives. This meant he did not lie and Elizabeth could be left to interpret what he said in a way that offered her some comfort and less vitriol towards him. As a result their next meeting was a relatively amicable exchange outside Trenwith.  

The Kisses

I think the above thoughts of Ross’s deliberately trying to show Elizabeth affection and to make her think he loved her like there was no change in this, explains the kisses he gave her. He could have just kissed her hand or on the cheek but this was a highly charged meeting and he pushed it to consolidate the work done to softened her up to him significantly. I do think he really was sorry for the mess he caused her. It was a guilt response of over affection which was not suggestive of him still being in love with her. Except for at her death, after this meeting Ross seemed quite detached from Elizabeth in his thoughts and actions in later scenes when their paths crossed. However while this particular meeting may have been the opposite of how you would have liked it to be, this was Ross's big and rare opportunity to push his affection strategy hard and leave a positive impression with what he seemed to take as an almost last goodbye signing off “Goodbye My Dear” as if not only was it a moment of closure but that it might be the last time he saw her for a while. Elizabeth’s change of temper was something he was clearly noting and he had thought  ‘At first she was bitter and hostile. But towards the end she softened and when we parted I kissed her.’ But aside from that Ross’s thoughts are happy at the thought that this meeting was another one that confirmed that his feelings for Elizabeth did not compare to his feelings and in particular, his love of Demelza.

Demelza in the series was choking back tears when she confronted Ross about this meeting because the series followed a different narrative and this scene is not in the books at all. The changes are significant. Elizabeth for the meeting in the series was not trembling with anger and wishing Ross death. Their exchange was set out in a way that it did seem to show that Ross did not have the duress of Elizabeth's blazing anger that put him at her mercy and made him hold back on gushing about his wife. Elizabeth in the series was instead quite calm and nostalgic with him. It conveyed Ross differently and as if he was almost looking regretful that he could not come to Elizabeth. But if you look at the full book dialogue, despite not insulting Elizabeth over preferring Demelza, in some of the other parts of their talk Ross was quite sarcastic, impatient and defensive with Elizabeth. For instance such as her claim that he was a bully and a devil and also when she was sarcastic about his ideas to deal with George. The series did not include that as it followed a narrative of consensual sex togetherness until the early hours. That meant she couldn't really come across with the blazing anger she had in the book scene. The script writer tried to make the meeting more romantic and I suppose following from that made Ross seem ineffective at reassuring Demelza about it when she confronted him. It did seem as if the scriptwriter did that to explain why Demelza then went off with Hugh. It looked like a revenge response from Demelza precisely because of what was made into a romantic meeting with Elizabeth by Prudy's report.

So I agree that these revised scenes in the series reflected more poorly on Ross than the book narrative. It is easy to conflate the two together but very often the script writer was writing from a perspective of Ross still being torn between the two women and still harbouring a romantic love for Elizabeth. That explains  the revision of the Church yard scene. Whereas I believe Graham was quite clear in his narrative and interviews that Ross no longer desired Elizabeth following 9th May. The different depiction by the 2015 series does cause confusion.

I wonder if you are still so disappointed by Ross in the scene or if this might lessen and you put it down to diplomacy and Ross owing at least that to her.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Hello….As you have, I believe such a keen perspective on so many details of this story, I would like to ask your thoughts on the following: Based on the Poldark series, which provided a visual to Ross’s night with Elizabeth, if Ross acted in a moment of anger and frustration why did he stay with her until the early morning. If the infidelity was a singular act of lust due to anger, why did he stay the whole night until early morning? This is a source of confusion for me when considering the infidelity. It leads you to believe it was more than just a singular “loss of control.” (I don’t believe that Ross loved Elizabeth and his love for Demelza proved much stronger than his infidelity, but this is a gray area for me…). Can you share your thoughts on this?

Hi there, this question regarding Ross Poldark staying overnight with Elizabeth is good one for which I will first set the scene a bit on first.

Ross made some comments to Demelza at the end of ‘Warleggan’ when with a calmer attitude about it she finally questioned him about his night with Elizabeth. I think that one in particular is quite key to my thoughts. He did say “But I wasn’t seeking just pleasure. I was -I suppose in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I’d found in you, and it was not there. For me it was not there.” Also just before he lifted Elizabeth and took her to the bed that night he did say “There’s no tomorrow. It doesn’t come. Life is an illusion. Didn’t you know? Let us make the most of the shadow”

Loss of control a segway to Ross's controlled unreason

My understanding is that Ross was angry when he went to see Elizabeth and that he was further provoked by the content of the discussion he was having with Elizabeth. This included her provoking him with an untruth in the heat of the moment where she said that she loved George to distraction. It was after that that he became physical by taking her arm and pinioning it behind her as well as kissing her violently. This was anger and Elizabeth described it as hateful. However where you mention a singular ‘loss of control’ this was not a situation like where Ross beat George up and would be pulled off him and then parted from him to go their own way. Ross’s anger with Elizabeth contained in the privacy of that bedroom together, was a segway which carried him through to a point where he was too far gone to where he was presented with an opportunity with Elizabeth that he would not have got to if not for the anger beforehand.

Graham then narrated that Ross kissed Elizabeth with passion where anger gave this extra relish, until anger was lost. Bearing in mind that Ross had thought in ‘The Twisted Sword’ that Valentine was conceived from anger, frustration and lust on his part, I believe that in this scene the anger was lost to lust which in his unreasonable and destructive state of mind brought Ross to suggest that they make the most of the shadows. So from that loss of control Ross had strayed into a state of mind where he was in control but was unreasonable. It is similar to when his anger had led him to plunder the Warleggan boats when they were shipwrecked after Julia’s death. He felt discomfort at the innocent verdict he was given for that because he did not feel he lost his mind or control but similarly anger had carried him through to unreason and a purposeful destruction where he was very focused and very much in control with that goal and in taking advantage of a situation that had occurred. This is like the same with his angry tide anger which after a loss of control in his scuffle with Monk Adderly over his pursuit of Demelza (and behind that her past infatuation for Hugh Armitage), this led him to ignore good reason not to do a duel with Adderly. Once in ‘The Angry Tide’ when Demelza challenged Ross about why he went to Trenwith to look in at the party being thrown there by Elizabeth and George and how he could have been caught by George and had a scene, he said “….It was a single act of -of unreason, if you like. You have to face the fact-must have faced it long ago- that I am not always a reasonable man.” It is these comments by Ross as written by Graham as an explanation of Ross understanding of himself that do match up with many of Ross’s wild behaviour across the saga. I believe that this unreason normally followed some goad or provocation and after the initial loss of control led him down a questionable path.

The Goad of Curiosity and Unreality

For that situation with the Trenwith party Ross was not charged with anger but a long running resentment and in the moment a curiosity about what was going on at his ancestral home. In the situation with Elizabeth for the May incident it is important to remember unreasonableness had led Ross to a point whereas he admitted to Demelza he had had pleasurable sex with Elizabeth. The context of this not just being anyone must be considered. This was the woman that he had wanted to marry, that he had idealised and he said he was devoted to for 10 years. She was the woman who had ‘got away’ and had an idealised relationship with and who at certain times in the book his curiosity over her had been shared with the reader. For instance, wondering if he loved her because he knew her less, wondering about the electric shock from touching her arm once, and wondering if he did truly love her and if their personalities would clash if they had married. Remember that from the starting point of anger each emotion which had followed for Ross that had led him to this point post sex, now provided him with a massive moment to finally address his 10 year curiosity, to scratch the surface and maybe finally have these questions that may have bugged him, answered. As a man, just like Demelza on a deserted beach with Hugh was subject to temptation and a feeling of unreality as an unnamed woman, it is not that surprising that Ross would be tempted to stay for a bit too if only for curiosity’s sake and to take this experience with the woman he had idealise so long, a bit beyond just sex that post sex.

A chance to dig for a deeper connection equal to his with Demelza

"....in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I’d found in you, and it was not there."

Ross to Demelza

Based on Ross’s comments on occasion in the book where he said suggested or said explicitly that sex without emotion was empty, the curiosity in what Ross was looking for in Elizabeth that was in Demelza would not be determined from the sex alone. What Ross probably meant he was looking for in Elizabeth was a deeper connection beyond the physical act, just as he then long had with Demelza. So this would be emotional connectedness, intimacy and that spark that lit his fire as he told Demelza she did for him. Also unlike a brawl with George where he would be separated and go elsewhere, Ross was with Elizabeth in the privacy of her bedroom having just been sexually aroused by her.  In exploring his curiosity for a comparison against Demelza he may then have not left immediately for that reason. In any case with him as the offender and then in a calmer disposition, leaving straightaway might have appeared to be wholly disrespectful. My position is that this was a case of acquaintance rape which especially with the confusion about if Elizabeth was willing in the end and perhaps Elizabeth just not resisting and not treating him like the devil, even if she still did not consent, this would explain why Ross staying was not so strange. But even more so for those that do not agree that any rape occurred. These two had a long running relationship history and regard for each other and so leaving immediately or very soon after such a momentous incident would again be less likely than if it were someone without that relationship background.

I suspect that the atmosphere post sex was probably filled with their differing mixed emotions such as some shell shock for what had just happened, embarrassment, a sense of duty to stay for a bit to reframe, soften and counter the impact of what was essentially a violent taking of Elizabeth (which may or may not have seemed not to be so much against Elizabeth’s will in the end), and to try to kill the awkwardness and make up for bad behaviour. Also Ross likely wanted to see if the pleasure he experienced from the physical aspect of the experience was followed in their togetherness in the aftermath. But he found it was not. It is frustrating that Winston Graham did not describe this scene or account for what they did exactly over the length of time they stayed together into the early hours of the morning. However while we know what time he arrived at Nampara we do not know the exact time he left Trenwith. However I am supposing that their time together however long was strained, weird and lacking in conversation. That seems to be the case based on their respective post event reflections where despite Ross staying for some considerable time, neither of them seemed to know how the other felt about the incident or each other wishes thereafter. Perhaps that indicates superficial level conversation and none of it was referred to.  

A blessing for Ross's processing

If my vision of the kind of post sex scenario between Ross and Elizabeth did occur, I do think that this probably was an important occurrence to help Ross process his feelings for Elizabeth rather than for him to have left immediately and not experienced that bold in your face reality of intimacy or lack of intimacy and lack of connectedness with Elizabeth in the aftermath. Otherwise Ross might have been subject to a sanitised idealised vision which could have troubled Ross in a different way if as an idealised vision might, this made Elizabeth more appealing and competitive against Demelza. So personally I think that in a sense it was helpful for him to have stayed that night for a long period and felt what I believe was awkwardness and emotional disconnectedness. I feel this will have helped Ross to clear away his confusion over time as he grew in understanding and perhaps acceptance about his feelings and where they leaned (given that he had probably expected over so long to feel more out of this world feeling in an intimate experience with Elizabeth). Judging from his response to Demelza’s suggestion that the circumstances were not the most romantic and he might want to try again, he was not interested in that idea and all that had occurred to me was all part of the processing he went through to find where his heart really lay.  

I hope my take does not sound too oddball for you and at least offers some food for thought.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

4/10 Truths On Elizabeth’s Astonishments and Humiliations

'She was a beautiful, rather over-reserved, disappointed young woman. She was also jealous of the blossoming Demelza though she tried to fight against it.'

Demelza' first edition (Internal Book 1 Chpt 6)

Elizabeth: Envy Of The New 'Great Lady' -Demelza Pt 4 (10 Truths On Elizabeth's Astonishments And Humiliations)

Ongoing theme of a diminished Elizabeth Poldark's astonishment and humiliation seeing a blossoming Demelza be admired and welcomed into high

[thoughtsonpoldark]

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Thank you for your essays on the Poldark saga. I have gained so much understanding. I have always believed that when Elizabeth and Ross met at the churchyard by her springing on Ross that George doesn't believe Valentine is his child" then by her words "I cannot say" " I will not say" she was admitting Ross was father. Why the need to tell him if it was not true? She hated Ross at that time.And to tell him this!? I believe she had the knowledge of her menses to know when they stopped that she was pregnant and who the fathet was(sex on May 9th, married on June 20th, baby Feb 14). Demelza knew because of Verity s letter. Didn't show to Ross, she had thoughts of her own on the letter and later "they were all so wrong". What do you think? How much did Demelza guess? She could count if no one else could-Aunt Agatha? How much did she know. She was smart and I believe she knew child was definitely full term. Then...What was Ross’s responsibility? Could he have been involved in Valentine's childhood? I don't see how. George and Ross hated each other. Years later a conversation between Verity and Ross talking of Valentine and Verity saying when Valentine small he looked like Ross now he looks, acts like Joshua. I think Verity fishing for the truth, trying to get Ross to admit and he will not. Your thoughts?

Hi there. Thanks for your ask and your kind words.

On the issue of Valentine’s paternity, for some reason Winston Graham chose not to be explicit in narration about whether all the key characters you mentioned including Elizabeth, Demelza, Ross, Verity and Agatha knew about Valentine’s true paternity, and if they did, then when they had this realisation. However he gave us enough information for us to be surer with regards to Elizabeth and then indications which were suggestive for the others.   

Did Elizabeth know Valentine was Ross's baby?

Like you I think it is clear that Elizabeth did know that Valentine was not George’s child when she married him. Ironically the postponement of her intended wedding day (at her request) will have provided her enough time to have missed a menses and to then realise she might be pregnant following Ross’s visit. This is especially as Elizabeth did tell Dr Anselm that her menses were regular. Her comment “I cannot say" and " I will not say" was in keeping with Elizabeth’s way of words when trying to avoid an outright lie while also not giving away the real truth either. Like you said this only serves as an admission because if he was not the father she would have happily confirmed that.

I think it is understandable that in the heat of the moment with pent up anger over three years for the possible destruction of her marriage, that she would let it slip when finally faced with the man who she felt was responsible for it. Winston Graham conveyed that feeling when he wrote “He seemed at that moment the cause, the fount, the initiator of all her present and past miseries.’ Most people who see someone who has hurt and damaged them and see that they appear to be living their life unaware of the hurt they have caused them will want to give them an indication of this. Once Elizabeth said a bit and Ross prodded her as to the exact problem, I think she couldn’t help but say the true issue was a suspicion on paternity.

When did Demelza realise Valentine was Ross's baby?

So there is no clear indication of the point where Demelza knew about Valentine’s paternity but it made clearer that she knew in the later books when Valentine is older and encroaching on the Poldark’s life. I cannot read much into Demelza’s response and thoughts to Verity’s letter in Warleggan with the gossip that Elizabeth might be pregnant. This is because although Demelza’s sharp intelligences and her natural pessimism around Ross and Elizabeth will have meant her thinking it was a possibility that this was Ross’s child, Winston Graham is not clear on the specifics of Demelza’s reflections on it, which part/s this related to and if she withheld the letter from Ross to avoid him being wound up about the wedding in general or because of the pregnancy gossip. Though George confirmed Elizabeth’s pregnancy to Ross it is not clear if this was confirmed to Demelza by the time she thought back on Verity’s letter when she nearly ran out and left Ross at the last scenes. The other thing is that Winston Graham wrote this book thinking it was the last and also that it had a happy ending. 20 years later he decided to continue the saga and it seemed he then developed the idea about Valentine’s paternity being some key point of conflict and tension to build a new book and storylines around. I think it is less likely he had thought of this beforehand for a book he was closing happily ended and where he made no obvious suggestion of a paternity issue. For instance towards the end he covered Elizabeth’s reflections on her marriage. She was 7 months pregnant by then. Despite being heavily pregnant at the time, not only did he not cover her reflections or hints that she thought she was pregnant with Ross’s child or unsure about this, he did not mention her feelings at all about her pregnancy. That suggests to me it was not a solid concept in his mind with any certainty. I am inclined to believe that Valentine being Ross's child was an idea Graham committed to when he reopened the saga and e started the next book.

Despite the above my view is that Winston Graham wrote with it in mind that Demelza did believe Valentine was Ross’s child from her first appearance in The Black Moon. That was in mid March of 1794 and Elizabeth had given birth two weeks before. Winston Graham specifically wrote that ‘The birth and christening of Valentine Warleggan was the latest thorn in the flesh. Neither said what was uppermost in their minds; it could never be uttered by anyone.’ By then Ross and Demelza had been reconciled for nearly three months and they had processed George and Elizabeth being married, which they had by then been for 9 months. Why would the birth of their first child concern them? I do think that this alludes to a feeling of discomfort about the timing and since Demelza was quite sharp minded she will surely have guessed about the paternity. This is because if Elizabeth got pregnant from her wedding night with George then their baby would not have been due until mid-late March. That would arose suspicion for Demelza. Then whafrom t are the chances of conception soon after marriage but particularly the wedding night. Using a conception date to birth date calculator the due date would be around 26th March if Elizabeth conceived on her wedding day. Valentine's birth on 14th Feb was perfectly in line with conception on 9th May when Ross took Elizabeth against her will.

Ross on paternity and duty to Valentine

You didn't ask about Ross's knowledge of Valentine's paternity before Elizabeth told him but I think it is relevant and also to the question of him taking responsibility and getting involved with Valentine's childhood. In response to Caroline’s letter in 'The Black Moon' about Valentine's Christening Winston Graham said Ross would have been glad not to have read it and that Caroline ‘…did not know half the story.’ I think that relates to him thinking how she did not know about 9th May. Between Ross and Demelza I think Ross subconsciously did not want to think further about paternity and you might have or will notice that whenever Valentine was mentioned to him before he met Elizabeth before she raised the parternity issue to him, he ignored the subject. For instance when his cousin St John at Ralph-Allen Daniell’s dinner party told him Elizabeth had fallen down the stairs while pregnant he asked Ross if he had said something in reply. He had not and Ross said ‘I said nothing.’  He then did not make any further comment or ask any clarifying question on what he was told. Also when he went with Caroline to see Agatha at Trenwith Caroline mentioned about being there for Valentine’s Christening and Winston Graham wrote  ‘Ross did not answer.’ So Winston Graham made a point of Ross swerving any talk of Valentine. I don’t think that was because he resented it as a child of George’s and Elizabeth’s but because of the fear it could be his.

Other than Ross’s initial exclamation of “Oh God. God in Heaven.” when Elizabeth told Ross of the basis to George’s suspicions about Valentine, I do not perceive that Ross was that shocked and I don’t think Demelza would have been either. In his later reflections it was worded that Ross was shocked and worried about George’s suspicions as if George being suspicious was the problem for him rather than the fact that he (Ross) might be Valentine’s father. I think that this is because at some conscious level he had already considered that a possibility and this was why he (and Demelza) did not want to say what was on their minds about Valentine after he was born. Ross stated to Elizabeth that he did not want a cuckoo in the nest and was keen on helping her kill George's suspicion. He avoided Valentine for years until teenage sought him out in the later books. It is clear from his angry reaction to John Treneglos who implied Valentine was his son in the later books that paramount for Ross was the embarrassment caused to Demelza but he also implied to Valentine that the suggestion Elizabeth had been with another man out of marriage would damage her reputation. Elizabeth also wanted Valentine to be believed as George's child and to get his inheritance from him. Ross taking responsibility for Valentine voluntarily as if he was accepting he was the father, would have sullied Elizabeth's name, hurt his own family and complicated inheritance issues. Ross only stepped in when Valentine was estranged from George and by force due to a heavy dose of guilt for how Valentine's life was going and even then he threatened Valentine not to repeat his suspicions that he was his father. Just like men were expected to be distress if they had a mistress, if Ross got involved with Valentine earlier it would have to have been discreet but it would have been very odd before George and Valentine were estranged since George was rich and there would be no need for Ross to be involved with Valentine in a kind of parental way.

Did Verity know of Valentine's true paternity?

I feel quite certain that Verity did not suspect Ross was Valentine’s father. She lived out of town for so long and would have had no idea of Ross possibly having had sex with Elizabeth and being unfaithful to Demelza who she was close with. She was too much of a sweetheart to taunt Ross in the way of making remarks to put him on the spot about paternity and to make him feel awkward or get him to admit he was the father of her sister in law. That would be quite an explosive thing which I think she would prefer to stay away from if she had suspected anything and respect his privacy unless perhaps she perceived it was the source of discontent in Ross. I think she made the comments because Valentine actually being Ross's child was the furthest thing from her mind and that Winston Graham just used Verity's innocent musings as a vehicle to put Ross in awkward situation of that paternity issue alongside the subplot of George having difficulties with Valentine and himself reflecting on the paternity issue. Verity just commenting on an observation that she had about Valentine's likeness to a family member in the Poldark line was a mirror of when Geoffrey Charles said out loud his thoughts that Valentine looked like Ross on his rocking horse. I see these incidents as devices by Graham to taunt Ross in the former occasion and George and Elizabeth in the latter occasion that Ross was the father. It was a interesting way to show the reader that this was not a dead or unforgotten issue and the secret was a dangerous one because Valentine’s Poldark traits were occasionally noticed by people who innocently commented on this while not having a clue that there might actually be a paternity issue with Valentine.

Did Agatha know that Valentine Was Ross's Child?

I don’t believe that Agatha knew Valentine’s true paternity. She would not have had any idea that Ross and Elizabeth slept together but the circumstances of Valentines birth on a black moon and premature did get her attention. In her argument with George before she died she was taking what I think were shots in the dark around the two elements of Valentine’s birth that were unique. For being under a black moon she could run the argument that this meant the child would be evil or ‘twisted’ as she said. Then the child being premature naturally would mean he could not be the father. That was an obvious taunt to make. I say that too was a shot in the dark because she even suggested Valentine was neither a seven month or eight month baby and she had seen 8 month newborns and that they did not look how Valentine did who she said was a full term child. However according to the enquiries George later made with Dr Behenna in the next book Agatha’s claims upon which she based this on were wrong. She said that unlike full term babies 8 month babies did not have nails, were wrinkled and red and did not have hair. Dr Behenna who said in his career he had delivered a considerable number of 6, 7 and 8 month babies denied each of those assertions were quite true. Hence Agatha was taking shots in the dark with this too in order to make him think Valentine was conceived before marriage. Also just before Agatha died she regretted what she said with Graham taking no opportunity to narrate clearly that nevertheless Agatha had revealed a long held suspicion that she had and believed was true. He just narrated her questioning ‘What she had said’ as if she knew it was crazy rather than and not meaning to injure Elizabeth.  I think that especially as she hated George all along, that if Agatha really believed what she said was actually true there would have been indications along the way or little under the breath jibs about him not being full term, rather than this outburst a year and half after Valentine was born.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

2/10 Truths on Elizabeth’s Astonishments and Humiliations

‘I cant come here again, she thought. After all this time, and now it's too late. Too late for me to come here.'

( ‘Ross Poldark’ internal Book 2 Chapter 8 )

Demelza- Elizabeth's Gauche But Powerful Obstacle (Pt2 10 Truths On Elizabeth's Astonishments and Humiliations )

A second post on the theme of Elizabeth's astonishment and humiliation and where Demelza is an obstacle in her romantic intentions with Ross