stan logic

breaking down this (an anti-transmed list of sources) under the cut

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brits-against-trumeds

I understand that the NHS site says that androgynous people are gender diverse, but if they meant “androgynous people don’t have dysphoria but the rest do” they would just say that?

I personally think it’s willful ignorance to suggest that when the NHS says that “not all gender diverse people experience gender dysphoria” that is actually must mean androgynous cis people. It means all trans people, (I do disagree with the inclusion of androgynous) but I think you’re just discrediting the source on a technicality.

I would ask you to maybe not say that this source isn’t trustworthy because of that one part you have nitpicked out from it, especially since people are going to see that you refuted it in some way and then run with it, saying that it’s false and wrong when it really isn’t?

#thanks for trying though #rb

the reason i specifically centred on this wasn’t nitpicking.

the site says “it is important to note that not all gender diverse people experience gender dysphoria,” and in the next paragraph (your screenshot) lists androgynous people as part of the “diversity of people.” therefore it’s not in support of the “you don’t need dysphoria to be trans” argument.

it’s a very short page, so i wouldn’t expect lines upon lines of explaining their wording, but because the page is so short it’s apparent to me that the two (gender diverse people and androgynous people) are conflated. this is how i read the page personally, and i’m not the original writer so i can’t be sure but i doubt you wrote it either.

and i didn’t say “don’t trust the nhs.” i said “this source also says that “genderdivers[ity]” includes people who are androgynous. you can be cis and androgynous,” discrediting the site as a source for “you can be trans without dysphoria” as opposed to a source overall. maybe you’re the one nitpicking because in my original post i actually said this:

"but psychology has always been a left-wing field" this is because science itself is left-wing, because the right-wing is anti-science.

that may be true for a lot of right wing people (e.g. american conservatives denying climate change, or christian creationists denying evolution) but a political bias is still a bias and being subjective in science isn’t a good thing. also just to be entirely clear i’m not right wing or conservative by any means.

here are some quotes from the sources i listed in the post that show what i mean:

[Psychology being left-wing] discouraged conservative students from joining the field, and it discouraged conservative members from pursuing certain lines of argument.

The topics that social psychologists chose to study and how they chose to study them, he argued, suffered from homogeneity.

“It’s not like the whole field is undercut, but when it comes to research on controversial topics, the effect is most pronounced,” he later told me.

“The same people who are exquisitely sensitive to discrimination in other areas are often violently antagonistic when it comes to political ideology, bringing up clichéd arguments that they wouldn’t accept in other domains: ‘They aren’t smart enough.’ 'They don’t want to be in the field.’ ”

“Science benefits from diverse perspectives, and key advances often occur when ideas slip across disciplinary borders. But many invisible norms and practices in a field can discourage the mingling of diverse ideas.”

Political homogeneity, he went on, comes at “a substantial cost” to research quality.

Conservative viewpoints, the Florida State University psychologist Roy Baumeister added, “would inform and elevate how we understand a huge part of life and of culture.”

As the degree of conservatism rose, so, too, did the hostility that people experienced. Conservatives really were significantly more afraid to speak out. Meanwhile, the liberals thought that tolerance was high for everyone.

Now, anyone that knows anything about conformity and social pressures would probably guess that the actual number of conservatives is higher than the number that raised their hands that day.

"What onefinds in psychological research often hinges on what one islooking for and how hard one looks” (Tetlock & Mitchell,1993, pp. 249-250). If liberal questions are asked, one islikely to get liberal answers. One is unlikely to get conservative answers, however, if one fails to characterize problems from a conservative perspective.

#ask #anon #also anon i'm not trying to attack you or deny that it's probable most people interested in psychology #are in fact left wing but many are right wing #a balanced view point is better than a biased one #long post

breaking down this (an anti-transmed list of sources) under the cut

the american psychiatric association is known for being a left-wing crowd pleaser

dr. nicholas cummings (an ex-apa president) literally admitted this (source)

and whilst he was the apa president in 1979 and the source is from 2005, especially with social media more recent apa members could easily kill their careers for speaking out. i’m not saying this is 100% the case, but psychology has always been a left-wing field (source, source, source, source, source)

also a q&a on their website written by two individuals isn’t really objective fact

to me this is worded really weirdly lol

but like the apa, organisations (especially those somewhat dependent on donations like lambda legal) are often coerced into certain views

and regardless, a legal company aren’t gonna be at the front of transgender science, even if they’re an lgbt focused firm

this source also says that “genderdivers[ity]” includes people who are androgynous. you can be cis and androgynous

gender dysphoria can’t be a mental illness because you can’t “fix” it with therapy or medication that focuses on your brain - most transmeds know this, and most think it’s a neurological disorder

the second link also says “it’s a recognised medical condition”

and whilst yes the last quote says that the distress is due to the disconnect, to me it reads like a ~universal causation~ i.e. the mismatch will cause some level of discomfort or distress as opposed to “some people experience the discomfort or distress”

the source also pretty much point-blank states and consistently implies that the mismatch will cause some levels of discomfort/distress - “treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help reduce or remove the distressing feelings of a mismatch between biological sex and gender identity,” “[adults with gender dysphoria] may also have a strong desire to change or get rid of physical signs of their biological sex,” “the assessment will determine whether you have gender dysphoria and what your needs are, which could include: whether there's a clear mismatch between your biological sex and gender identity [...]”

i’m not debunking the nhs as a source because it comes from a medical (not specifically psychiatric) organisation with clinics and doctors trained specifically to deal with transgender patients, their site has been assessed by an external board, and they don’t really care about being controversial regarding trans people (e.g. their wait times for clinics can go up to 4 years and it’s basically illegal to surpass 18 weeks). i don’t trust them fully but it’s personally the most valid source

if you follow the citation in the first cap, the original proposal states “the diagnostic criteria should be distress based,” nothing about “identity (per se)”

the second cap is just true lol

i think what the person writing the google doc is trying to say is “associated doesn’t mean always” but in a diagnostic sense associated means they’re literally connected. in the same book for example it says “depression is associated with sadness” and the first diagnostic criterion for depression is feeling low

and i know there’s a lot of debate about if the dsm is reliable but that discourse is mostly between the dsm-5 and previous versions - the criteria for gender dysphoria really hasn’t changed, only through semantics

the dsm is a psychiatric manual though, so whilst i may be in agreement with this i don’t know how much i trust it regarding transness

transequality says that there’s nothing inherently upsetting about being trans and that it’s all about society lol. also they aren’t a medical organisation

nbcnews cites the APA’s q&a regarding gender dysphoria. see above

ftmmagazine’s page about gender dysphoria has been taken down

medium’s article is anecdotal

genderanalysis’s is also anecdotal

and just while i’m here, the link provided spreads misinformation about hrt. “if you decide you don’t like hrt, you can easily stop after a month or two with little or no permanent changes” - this may be more true for trans women (who they’re talking about) than trans men, but chest tissue still changes and it only takes a couple of months to become sterile forever, and it definitely isn’t true for trans men on hrt yet this difference isn’t mentioned at all.

it also defines dysphoria as “vivid repulsion” and “strong, clear aversive and negative feelings” towards ones sex characteristics, but there’s a lot more to it than that - a fundamental misunderstanding of dysphoria isn’t a great look for a source about dysphoria

i agree with this! again i think it’s a neurological disorder

however scientificamerican discusses demedicalising being trans full stop, and endorses informed consent

dictionaries aren’t medical resources

wikipedia is useful, but everyone knows it’s unreliable

transstudent doesn’t say that dysphoria or distress isn’t required

rcpsych is a british institute that again talks about “gender diverse people” i.e. androgynous people

transmeds really don’t think there’s a strict 100% male or female brain, just brains with masculine and feminine features and that’s what these sources agree with!

newscientist says “If a neuroscientist was given someone’s brain without their body or any additional information, they would still probably be able to guess if it had belonged to a man or a woman” - that’s the whole point

fastcompany says “Indeed, there are some differences in the brains of men and women. Men’s brains are about 10% bigger than women’s brains, which happens to be about the same as our height and weight difference” - again, that’s the point

sciencedaily says “you often find that the differences are minimal” - there are still differences

plaidzebra discusses a study that only focused on the hippocampus. it also comes from somebody who thinks all of gender is socially constructed (it isn’t. people are trans for a reason)

transmedicalists cite other studies (see the first three sources), but the last two links still provide evidence there are differences, even if minute

them makes the mistake again of thinking “brain sex” means “brains are 100% male or female”

they admit that there is observable difference between a transgender brain and a cisgender brain, but persists in the idea that observing this is transphobic - biology isn’t transphobic

thedailybeast brings up some good points about brain studies potentially leading to eugenics, but i feel like instantly treating trans science as a conspiracy is jumping the gun - the consensus of the people behind these studies is that these studies are to advance transgender care

they also say that lgbt science doesn’t affect the public’s view of lgbt people in any way, but that trans science could see a surge of conversion therapy. so what is the truth?

and they compare the idea of finger length indicating sexuality (from 2000) to brain studies. being transgender has a medical basis, sexuality vs. finger length does not

the guardian conflates gender roles and the effects of gender roles with gender

and they say that they deny brain studies because if brain studies are correct “the oppression of women and queer people has a natural basis” ????

these really aren’t reliable sources about being trans

honestly call me lazy but i’m not gonna touch on this bit as i believe an agender type of identity probably does exist, and a lot of transmeds do as well. if you wanna break it down yourself absolutely go for it

also the APA is bullshit

the links are all broken

that being said, most nb genders that aren’t western don’t apply to our idea of non-binary anyway (it’s like trying to apply fundamental hindu ideas to christianism)

and they tend to come from places of homophobia and misogyny anyway, as ways to punish gender non-conformity, intersex people, women, and homosexuality

in conclusion: don’t trust the APA, the NHS doesn’t say you don’t need gender dysphoria to be trans, a law firm isn’t a medical source, gatekeeping is healthy if it protects resources and support that certain people need to survive

#this comes across super messy i just can't write i'm sorry fjghjkfg #transmedicalist #transmed #truscum #anti tucute #txt #also what i say isn't 100% objective truth either it's just my take

no-steppy-snek

For the last time, it’s fuckin simple. People are attracted to your *perceived* sex, aka your sex characteristics, NOT your identity, and NOT your chromosomes either. If a trans man completely passes, people attracted to men might be attracted to him, whereas if he doesn’t pass, people attracted to women might be attracted to him (and vice versa for trans women.) Also: if someone finds out that you’re trans and doesn’t want to sleep with you because of your genitals, THATS PERFECTLY FINE AND REASONABLE.

myragewillendworlds

Sources

First known use of “transgender”

Comparison of BSTc size and shape

Quality of life in treated transsexuals

Common questions

Am I supposed to feel like a specific gender?

How do I know I’m experiencing gender dysphoria? [1] [2] [3]

What else could these feelings be? [1] [2]

What’s the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria?

Should I use inclusive language for transgender people?

Does not being attracted to transgender people make me transphobic?

How can I help loved ones that are transgender?

Research & info

List of peer-reviewed papers on gender, transgender and intersex conditions

Collection of transgender studies on Tumblr

Helpful information for and about transgender people

You are free to repost this elsewhere, provided you link back to the original post.

mogai-watch

This is EXCELLENT

awolspaceman

informative? pretty? sources cited? easy to understand? this is PERFECT

truscum-vivi

reblogging this again for an anon who wanted good sources and cites!!

transgenderedfugo

cis tucute? that’s a funky way of saying transphobe

tem-pissed-in-a-t-pot

I wonder how truscum/transmeds would feel knowing that my gender therapist, upon hearing me explain what truscum were, laughed because of how wrong they were. She genuinely thought I was joking at first, especially with the stuff about the DSM-V and the APA.

Whodda thunk that a licensed professional would be anti-transme—-oh wait, basically any anti-transmed with half a fucking brain. Hm.

bi-kisses

😒

@the-defiant-pupil can testify that the voice of one medical professional certainly doesn’t outweigh… countless others. He’s had therapists literally say the OPPOSITE and scoff at tucutes so ig your therapist isn’t the be all end all of opinions :/

beelzeboofo

How much y'all wanna bet op told their doctor that truscum were foaming-at-the-mouth transphobes who think you need to hate yourself to be trans while claiming tucutes are innocent white knights of trans rights who do no wrong

Because I am betting BIG money.

no offence but transness isn’t a spiritual experience, a world view, a lifestyle, or any other hippie shit. you’re trans or you’re not, that’s it.

josh-sj

how do trans want everyone to accept them when they couldnt even accept themselves from the start?

????

i accept myself i accept trans people i'm talking about people who act like being trans as something interesting and #woke when it really isn’t its just a thing people are

also i think everyone wants people to accept them and treat them with basic dignity and respect but maybe that's just us silly trans people haha :)

#i saw another bs post about this i'm so tired #transmed #truscum #transgender #txt

no offence but transness isn't a spiritual experience, a world view, a lifestyle, or any other hippie shit. you're trans or you're not, that's it.

lost-boy-discourse

You know, if you’re a cis gay male and you don’t want to date a trans man because you aren’t attracted to him, that’s fine.

But if you start calling him a “straight girl” or a fujoshi and saying that he’s fetishising gay relationships and constantly bring up the fact that he’s a biological female, then you’re just an asshole. No one is forcing you to date them, so there’s no need for you to get worked up anyway, but for you to go this far to severely misgender people intentionally is so beyond disgusting. I’ve read comments that have literally made me sick because my dysphoria got so bad. I think you should rethink your morals

#this is about 'not all trans people suffer from gender dysphoria' btw #i'm doing a post debunking a bunch of anti transmed sources its gonna take a while but felt this was worth sharing #transmed #truscum #*m

an ex president of the APA literally said they're influenced by left wing activists and this was before social media and witch hunting. a q&a on their website written by two individuals with no evidence doesn't hold any weight whatsoever

spill-the-gender-tea

for anon

#both are good :(#rb

Being trans is not a trans person’s defining trait and shouldn’t be treated as such. They should be treated like any other person, by their personality traits. It’s an illness, not your social/political movement.

it’s not an illness thanks

It is closely tied to an illness, as you cannot be trans unless you have gender dysphoria. You wouldn’t claim to be schizophrenic if you had no schizophrenia, would you? It’s a medical phenomenon, not a fashion statement or a hip way to give yourself personality. It’s not really that hard.

shyness, awkwardness and introversion are commonly associated and closely linked with anxiety disorders but you can have those traits without having anxiety and being shy isn’t an illness

I don’t care for your stance on transmed/tucute debate, calling being transgender an illness is really fucking offensive, disgusting, dehumanising and just fucking wrong. It’s hurtful and gross and is literally copy-pasting the transphobic arguments made by cis people as to why being trans is wrong.

If you are cis: stop

If you are trans: work on your internalised transphobia

transmedicalist or not, could you just explain to me why you think the idea of someone having an illness is “really fucking offensive, disgusting, dehumanising, […] hurtful and gross”?

(and before this gets misconstrued: if for example you’d said “calling being chinese an illness is dehumanising” i’d agree with you 100%, but you don’t pursue medical treatment for being chinese and there aren’t conditions linked with it in the way dysphoria’s linked with being transgender.)

many people who even say they’re non-dysphoric pursue (or want to pursue) medical transition. endocrinology is a branch of medicine, surgery is a branch of medicine, gender therapy is a branch of medicine - these all aid transgender people specifically regarding them being transgender, and are pretty essential to most being able to live their lives or even just being able to function comfortably.

treatment can be defined as “medical care given to a patient for an illness or injury” and illness, whilst not the best word i do agree (condition would be better), can be defined as “a period of sickness affecting the body or mind” - would you not agree this aligns with being trans?

I’m not feeling like reading the entire message so I’m just gonna answer your question:

There’s nothing wrong with having an illness, I have never said that. But being transgender is not an illness and is literally what transphobes have been saying for years as a reason why we’re unnatural and should go to conversion therapy instead of transitioning. Transmed discourse aside, you shouldn’t be reusing the same argument used to dehumanise and harass trans people.

treatment for trans people’s transness exists. you don’t treat nothing, therefore transness is an illness, condition, or disorder.

illness: “the condition of being ill, or in poor health” condition: “an illness or other medical problem” disorder: “a problem or illness which affects someone’s mind or body”

there is a loaded history between being trans and the word ‘illness,’ i recognise that, but there’s also a loaded history between being, say, schizophrenic and the word ‘sickness.’ it doesn’t mean that in a well-intentioned, educated, or medical context ‘sickness’ isn’t an appropriate term for schizophrenia.

personally illness doesn’t feel like the correct word for being trans, but when i was questioning a long time ago the words i used a lot were “disorder” and “illness.” it’s also more appropriate if you were to come out to a very young family member for example, to say “i have an illness where my mind doesn’t match my body and it makes me a boy” instead of “i’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria which means neurologically my sex is disconnected from my gender.” doesn’t mean you’re dehumanising yourself.

Hooo boy there’s a lot of shit to unpack here but let’s just throw away the whole suitcase

“in context and with the right intent some words are useful” “good luck with your internalised transphobia”

anyway the word illness isn’t like tr*nny - it wasn’t created to hurt trans people, it doesn’t now exist to hurt trans people, and it’s never been co-opted so broadly to hurt trans people that it justifies outlawing it.

if you’re serious in your convictions but you’re tired and have a headache, sleep and reply when you’re next ready. don’t have a discourse blog if you’re just going to throw some tumblr line at me when you can’t be bothered to break down what i say - if there’s so much to unpack it should be easy.

It’s… Not a discourse blog

your url fits the “xyz against abc” discourser urls, you have a list of discourse/political stances in your about, and you engage in discourse, so i hope you can see where i got that idea.

however, if that’s all you have to say i hope we can agree to agree.

Being trans is not a trans person’s defining trait and shouldn’t be treated as such. They should be treated like any other person, by their personality traits. It’s an illness, not your social/political movement.

it’s not an illness thanks

It is closely tied to an illness, as you cannot be trans unless you have gender dysphoria. You wouldn’t claim to be schizophrenic if you had no schizophrenia, would you? It’s a medical phenomenon, not a fashion statement or a hip way to give yourself personality. It’s not really that hard.

shyness, awkwardness and introversion are commonly associated and closely linked with anxiety disorders but you can have those traits without having anxiety and being shy isn’t an illness

I don’t care for your stance on transmed/tucute debate, calling being transgender an illness is really fucking offensive, disgusting, dehumanising and just fucking wrong. It’s hurtful and gross and is literally copy-pasting the transphobic arguments made by cis people as to why being trans is wrong.

If you are cis: stop

If you are trans: work on your internalised transphobia

transmedicalist or not, could you just explain to me why you think the idea of someone having an illness is “really fucking offensive, disgusting, dehumanising, […] hurtful and gross”?

(and before this gets misconstrued: if for example you’d said “calling being chinese an illness is dehumanising” i’d agree with you 100%, but you don’t pursue medical treatment for being chinese and there aren’t conditions linked with it in the way dysphoria’s linked with being transgender.)

many people who even say they’re non-dysphoric pursue (or want to pursue) medical transition. endocrinology is a branch of medicine, surgery is a branch of medicine, gender therapy is a branch of medicine - these all aid transgender people specifically regarding them being transgender, and are pretty essential to most being able to live their lives or even just being able to function comfortably.

treatment can be defined as “medical care given to a patient for an illness or injury” and illness, whilst not the best word i do agree (condition would be better), can be defined as “a period of sickness affecting the body or mind” - would you not agree this aligns with being trans?

I’m not feeling like reading the entire message so I’m just gonna answer your question:

There’s nothing wrong with having an illness, I have never said that. But being transgender is not an illness and is literally what transphobes have been saying for years as a reason why we’re unnatural and should go to conversion therapy instead of transitioning. Transmed discourse aside, you shouldn’t be reusing the same argument used to dehumanise and harass trans people.

treatment for trans people’s transness exists. you don’t treat nothing, therefore transness is an illness, condition, or disorder.

illness: “the condition of being ill, or in poor health” condition: “an illness or other medical problem” disorder: “a problem or illness which affects someone’s mind or body”

there is a loaded history between being trans and the word ‘illness,’ i recognise that, but there’s also a loaded history between being, say, schizophrenic and the word ‘sickness.’ it doesn’t mean that in a well-intentioned, educated, or medical context ‘sickness’ isn’t an appropriate term for schizophrenia.

personally illness doesn’t feel like the correct word for being trans, but when i was questioning a long time ago the words i used a lot were “disorder” and “illness.” it’s also more appropriate if you were to come out to a very young family member for example, to say “i have an illness where my mind doesn’t match my body and it makes me a boy” instead of “i’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria which means neurologically my sex is disconnected from my gender.” doesn’t mean you’re dehumanising yourself.

Hooo boy there’s a lot of shit to unpack here but let’s just throw away the whole suitcase

“in context and with the right intent some words are useful” “good luck with your internalised transphobia”

anyway the word illness isn’t like tr*nny - it wasn't created to hurt trans people, it doesn't now exist to hurt trans people, and it's never been co-opted so broadly to hurt trans people that it justifies outlawing it.

if you’re serious in your convictions but you’re tired and have a headache, sleep and reply when you're next ready. don’t have a discourse blog if you’re just going to throw some tumblr line at me when you can’t be bothered to break down what i say - if there’s so much to unpack it should be easy.