An Everlark Gathering.

I probably won’t be up to follow along with the discussion, but I have a couple of questions for you guys.

Here’s the first:

My husband and I each read the book and we each have different issue with the ending.

He doesn’t believe Snow would just all of a sudden hunt down and shoot Lucy Grey. I disagree. Snow said running off to the woods was his only option because of his DNA on the missing gun. Once he found it he realized the only thing potentially standing in his way back toward a life in the Capitol was Lucy Grey’s knowledge of his crime.

My husband thinks someone else should have killed her, thus setting him off. What do you guys think?

Thanks @norbertsmom

I think I would need your husband to expound on why he thinks that doesn’t make sense. Snow is the ultimate preservationist and that is the pinnacle of the story line, that Snow will always choose himself and believes that everyone is inherently evil and will choose themself over another. I would suggest he reread that chapter again. And like you said, Lucy was the last thing that could connect him to the murders, he would never feel truly free unless she was dealt with.

But then you say your husband THINKS someone else should have killed her, which is a totally different thing than believing it doesn’t make sense. Does he mean setting Snow off into killing the person who killed her? Because if so, again, he is the ultimate preservationist and would never harm someone for killing her. He wouldn’t risk his life for vengeance. He wouldn’t risk his life unless forced, like when he’s forced to retrieve Sejanus. He didn’t actually love Lucy Gray, he was infatuated with her and she was a pawn for him. It was all about control. Once she was useless to him she was disposable.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

@lovely-tothe-bone

I think the point is that Snow choosing to shoot at her demonstrates him willingly giving up on love (something that’s ultimately selfless) in order to improve his own lot in life (a selfish behavior). Throughout the entirety of part 3, I thought she was going to break his heart. That was the only thing I could think of that would make sense for why he turned to the dark side (pardon my Star Wars reference). the fact that he WILLINGLY chose to turn his back on her makes it even worse, in my opinion. He wasn’t betrayed. He betrayed her. Transition to villain complete.

@hutchhitched, he did give up on love. Remember in the end he said he didn’t like love. It only made him feel stupid and vulnerable. He said he’d marry someone he hated like Livia Cardew because he couldn’t be manipulated then.

@mtk4fun, Yes? That’s what I said. He willingly chose to give up on a love, a selfless thing, because he doesn’t like how it makes him feel to be selfless and vulnerable–which is a more villainous decision that giving up on love because he’s been betrayed.

norbertsmom

Thanks @hutchhitched and @mtk4fun I struggled with how to explain to my husband that it was Snow’s choice to truly turn evil. He chose self preservation over love.

I think my hubs was looking for or hoping for an outside influence, like perhaps Dr. Gaul killing Lucy, to turn him evil, like you would get with a comic book super villain.

I don’t think my hubs, the sweetheart that he is, can comprehend choosing himself over love.

javistg

To me, Snow’s actions here make perfect sense.

It’s like @norbertsmom said. “Snow said running off to the woods was his only option because of his DNA on the missing gun.”

He’s not running away because he’s madly in love with Lucy Gray and can’t imagine living his life without her. He’s leaving because of the gun. If he had known that the weapons were safely stashed away in the cabin, he wouldn’t have made plans to escape. Especially after learning he’s been accepted into the training program.

His actions might be sudden, but they’re not unexpected. Even before he discovers the guns, we see how he starts to have second thoughts. He’s a Snow. Born and raised in a penthouse in the Capitol. The prospect of living out in the wild is not appealing to him. In the least. He doesn’t belong out there in the woods, hunting, and gathering, and foraging.

No, this is NOT the life he’s imagined for himself, or the future he worked so hard to get.

The second he finds the guns, he knows that everything he’s always wanted is within his reach again. The only thing standing between him and his bright future is Lucy Gray.

I believe Lucy Gray knows this, too. That’s why she sneaks out and tries to run.

#TBOSAS #ballad spoilers

So, best new character?

the-tesseract-wrinkling-time

Sejanus Plinth. He’s Peeta’s compassion mixed with Haymitch’s activism and Katniss’ indecision in how to make things better.

everlarkedalways

I don’t know how to categorize him and maybe that’s why this makes sense in many ways!

Sejanus Plinth for sure. He reminds me of Simon in Lord of the Flies. His death symbolizes the end of goodness and reason in Snow.

#ballad spoilers #tbosas

I’m only half-way through the books - does December 15 ever get mentioned again, except for one mention towards the middle of the book (I think it was either when they get the turkey, or one of the big days during the war)? Because I’ve read timelines that place the end of the war in MJ as being around December, and I wondered if this was SC’s way of giving us a clue when that ended. December 15 seemed like an awfully specific date. It might also be a date in history, but I haven’t researched it

So I’ve always timelined the war ended in January. But no, December 15th doesn’t get mentioned again. Someone research December 15th!

#ballad spoilers #the ballad of songbirds and snakes

So, what exactly are the Covey? Are they like the Romani/Roma? Are they real or original SC creation? Or Is it just the name of their troupe? And what about their names... I’m only on chapter 23, but it seems they sort of named themselves?? What do y’all think?

As far as I know there is no such thing as a real basis for the Covey but I’m sure SC drew from at least a couple different groups, it’s possible they are meant to have some mirroring of the Romani but I don’t know. The word covey means a small flock of birds or a small group of people, so pretty obvious why she chose that, she presents them as mockingjays. I wouldn’t call them a troupe because it sounds like they are an ethnicity. They travelled around as a big group before districts were locked down, though it seems they didn’t always stay in districts. You will get answers to their names soon :)

@lovely-tothe-bone

#ballad spoilers #the ballad of songbirds and snakes

Thank you, everyone!

We appreciate your thoughts and comments! We are going to study this book together and we’re excited to unpack it. It’s a lot to discuss! We’ll have another live chat soon!

@lovely-tothe-bone & @everlarkedalways

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

Favorite fact discovered?

Reaping is July 4th. I have seen so many timelines of the books. @bookgirl318 did one, but there are others too. Wonder if anyone guessed right on this?

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

It’s pretty fascinating and I think that we get to feel validated as a fandom.

Here's my second question:

My problem is when Snow and Lucy are running away and she says she's going to dig up some katniss tubers. Why did Lucy Grey run and hide? How did she know that he was going to try to kill her? Sure, she's smart, but how did she know?

I look forward to reading what you guys have to say.

Sejanus was like a brother to Snow, he allowed that projection of their relationship, he allowed Lucy to believe he went into the Arena to get Sejanus under his own will, he showed protectiveness of Sejanus. So if Snow could betray Sejanus for Panem, why would he not do the same to her? To Lucy Gray, trust was everything, it was more than love. But not only was it about the trust but that he clearly supported the Capitols beliefs. His betrayal of Sejanus had shown he wasn’t the person he led her to believe he was during her time in the Capitol.

Does anyone else want to add on?

@lovely-tothe-bone

#the ballad of songbirds and snakes #question #submission #ballad spoilers

Favorite fact discovered?

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

I probably won’t be up to follow along with the discussion, but I have a couple of questions for you guys.

Here’s the first:

My husband and I each read the book and we each have different issue with the ending.

He doesn’t believe Snow would just all of a sudden hunt down and shoot Lucy Grey. I disagree. Snow said running off to the woods was his only option because of his DNA on the missing gun. Once he found it he realized the only thing potentially standing in his way back toward a life in the Capitol was Lucy Grey’s knowledge of his crime.

My husband thinks someone else should have killed her, thus setting him off. What do you guys think?

Thanks @norbertsmom

I think I would need your husband to expound on why he thinks that doesn’t make sense. Snow is the ultimate preservationist and that is the pinnacle of the story line, that Snow will always choose himself and believes that everyone is inherently evil and will choose themself over another. I would suggest he reread that chapter again. And like you said, Lucy was the last thing that could connect him to the murders, he would never feel truly free unless she was dealt with.

But then you say your husband THINKS someone else should have killed her, which is a totally different thing than believing it doesn’t make sense. Does he mean setting Snow off into killing the person who killed her? Because if so, again, he is the ultimate preservationist and would never harm someone for killing her. He wouldn’t risk his life for vengeance. He wouldn’t risk his life unless forced, like when he’s forced to retrieve Sejanus. He didn’t actually love Lucy Gray, he was infatuated with her and she was a pawn for him. It was all about control. Once she was useless to him she was disposable.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

@lovely-tothe-bone

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

I think the point is that Snow choosing to shoot at her demonstrates him willingly giving up on love (something that’s ultimately selfless) in order to improve his own lot in life (a selfish behavior). Throughout the entirety of part 3, I thought she was going to break his heart. That was the only thing I could think of that would make sense for why he turned to the dark side (pardon my Star Wars reference). the fact that he WILLINGLY chose to turn his back on her makes it even worse, in my opinion. He wasn’t betrayed. He betrayed her. Transition to villain complete.

(based on what I’ve heard from others!) one of the most interesting things I’m looking forward to analyzing when my book arrives is the meta narrative of Katniss and Peeta almost exorcising Panem’s ghosts (just noting all the connections between them and Snow people have mentioned) - what’re people’s thoughts? redemptive arc for Panem? ironic comeuppance for Snow and his demons?

This is a fantastic question. What are your guys’ thoughts?

alliswell21

Honestly, so far, Snow reminds me a lot of Gale, in that both of them grew up with this image fed by their childhood experiences and discontent, then found themselves in situations where it seemed they bit more than what they could chew, and both of them loved “songbirds”.

I’m enjoying the contrast story, the learning where certain thing come from and the ease in which you can see how some other things not addressed in this book may have come later. I think Snow learned a great deal about how to best shape the games to be as oppressive as they could, yet harness the same weapon as entertainment from his time in this period... did Snow (the President) get his comeuppance in an ironic manner? Yes and no: Tigris helped Katniss get to him, and I truly want to know how she got to that point, but died at the in the exact place he feared he would, and in that way, his death doesn’t seem all that ironic to me.

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

The interesting thing about being in Snow’s head was that it was easy to take his side -- I kept thinking his behavior wasn’t so bad, of course he slowly began crossing lines. But the way it was written, in a lot of cases his actions seemed logical. If he was the one who eventually changed the Games so that the tributes were treated better --put in a luxury hotel-setting, fed well, and even trained -- I’m sure he thought he was good for being so generous (in comparison to how they were treated in earlier Games). This aspect really makes me think about how easy it is to rationalize our own behavior.

So, best new character?

I love Lucy Gray. I read her speaking in Dolly Parton’s voice and it really seemed to fit. I also like her cousin Maude Ivory, who I’m calling as Katniss’ future grandma.

alliswell21

I I second the Dolly Parton voice!

#balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

oakfarmer-deactivated20210904

(based on what I’ve heard from others!) one of the most interesting things I’m looking forward to analyzing when my book arrives is the meta narrative of Katniss and Peeta almost exorcising Panem’s ghosts (just noting all the connections between them and Snow people have mentioned) - what’re people’s thoughts? redemptive arc for Panem? ironic comeuppance for Snow and his demons?

This is a fantastic question. What are your guys’ thoughts?

My initial reaction was (maybe still is?) that Collins usurped all the important symbolism tied to Katniss in order to tell a more ‘on message’ story.

But the Katniss and Peeta as exorcists idea is appealing.

lovely-tothe-bone

While I totally agree right now, I’m hoping that my reread will help me break that down and find deeper meaning. But here’s my answer prior to yours.

I think that a lot of people are getting caught up in the literary aspect and we really need to take into account all angles. This is still a war story. SC specifically said the story is exploring what do people need to survive. So I would consider this an extension of THG trilogy in a different way than we view an actual prequel, time line wise yes it is a prequel but subject wise it’s like a major character study, of THG characters and the character of humanity. The further you get along the more you realize how Ballad characters parallel THG characters. Going back to decentralizing the literary aspect, the focus of the narrative is less about the main character which is why I think a lot of people are struggling with it, myself included. The story is actually not about Snow, he is a vehicle for exploring themes presented, specifically the ramifications of war, not just individually but as a country. So no, I don’t see THG as a redemptive arc for Panem or a comeuppance for Snow. The downfall of Panem began long before it became Panem and Snow is not wholly responsible for the atrocities of Panem. But like I had mentioned previously I plan to reread THG to make lots of notes in relation to Ballad. This is all super initial reaction without tons of deep digging. We could bring this up again in 6 months and I might have a totally different view.

#thanks for throwing in that hp reference #makes life so good #both lovely and i heart you #we need ang at the next toastcon #i'm serious #balladspoilers #songbirdsandsnakes #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #tbosas

I agree that this book isn’t a prequel in the normal sense of the word. It’s a cautionary tale and a social commentary. Snow and Sejanus and Lucy Gray and others are foils and/or mirrors of the characters we know and love from the original books. The difference is that (just like Harry Potter) Katniss and Peeta make choices to be compassionate and kind toward others and to look outside of themselves. Snow makes choices that ultimately lead to the destruction of others for his own personal gain.

I probably won’t be up to follow along with the discussion, but I have a couple of questions for you guys.

Here’s the first:

My husband and I each read the book and we each have different issue with the ending.

He doesn’t believe Snow would just all of a sudden hunt down and shoot Lucy Grey. I disagree. Snow said running off to the woods was his only option because of his DNA on the missing gun. Once he found it he realized the only thing potentially standing in his way back toward a life in the Capitol was Lucy Grey’s knowledge of his crime.

My husband thinks someone else should have killed her, thus setting him off. What do you guys think?

Thanks @norbertsmom

I think I would need your husband to expound on why he thinks that doesn’t make sense. Snow is the ultimate preservationist and that is the pinnacle of the story line, that Snow will always choose himself and believes that everyone is inherently evil and will choose themself over another. I would suggest he reread that chapter again. And like you said, Lucy was the last thing that could connect him to the murders, he would never feel truly free unless she was dealt with.

But then you say your husband THINKS someone else should have killed her, which is a totally different thing than believing it doesn’t make sense. Does he mean setting Snow off into killing the person who killed her? Because if so, again, he is the ultimate preservationist and would never harm someone for killing her. He wouldn’t risk his life for vengeance. He wouldn’t risk his life unless forced, like when he’s forced to retrieve Sejanus. He didn’t actually love Lucy Gray, he was infatuated with her and she was a pawn for him. It was all about control. Once she was useless to him she was disposable.

Anyone else wanna chime in?

@lovely-tothe-bone

#the ballad of songbirds and snakes #motivation questions #submission #ballad spoilers