Robins, Bats, and Other Critters

[trafficlightsarethenewkickass]

Hi! Green, here. They/he/nyx/she. So far braver on here than on my main blog :D. I'll reblog any well argued ideas/headcannons, but don't always agree with them, if you want to know my opinion, ask! Using this blog for DC (Batfam) stuff, and Shoot From The Hip because my two main fandoms can share space.

Main blog: @yellowprosegreenpoems

AO3: TheGreenInYellowJournalism

***My icon is a picture I took of my copy of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller! The blog banner is a picture I took of a really cool page from Riko's issue in my copy of We Are Robin Vol. 1***

[arcade-confetti]

Bad doodle comic time

[kitkat5628]

Debunking the misinformation about Barbara Gordon Part 4: "Barbara doesn't respect Dick, Dinah and others' boundaries"

Welcome back to my talkshow about revealing the truths behind the misinformation that goes around about the splendid Barbara Gordon, alias Batgirl and Oracle!

In the previous episode, we talked about the misinformation going around about how Barbara psychically and verbally abuses Dick Grayson.

In this episode, we'll talk about the famous: "Barbara doesn't respect others' boundaries".

Let's start this... Oh hell, I'm tired of being captain obvious but oh well.

I'm sure everyone knows this panel:

Does anyone even know where it's from, by the way? It's not important in this case, but I'll show you anyways, because I share sources.

This is the complete panel, from "Gotham: Secret Files and Origins". But that's not the point, is it?

I'm also sure everyone read the article that includes the specific imagine cut. Let's read what it says...

Except for the fact that the very first lines are wrong... In Nightwing, Barbara first appear in Nightwing #0.5 to help Dick, then in issue #7, then #14. From issue #14 we'll start to see her more... "Constantly watching Dick from the earliest issues" and yet it's not so constant until 14 issues later... I mean okay I guess, maybe we have a different concept of "earliest". And when she did appear, she was mostly helping him out... But sure. Constantly watching. Got it.

"The Grayson cam is a series of cameras that Babs installed in Dick's residence in order to spy on him."

This... Okay, seriously I hate saying "they don't read comics"... But come on, you can't read them and say this.

Every time we see Dick and Barbara talking and seeing each other, it's through only one place... His computer. I can give some examples.

Nightwing #24 (1996)

Nightwing #0.5 (1996)

Nightwing #18 (1996)

(You can't see Babs in this particular panel, but he's clearly in front of his computer)

Nightwing #18 (1996)

And for more, you can read Nightwing (1996)👍

Now, shall we take a look at Dick's apartment?

From the main entrance, the room immediately there. On the left, there's what seems to be the kitchen. And, right outside the kitchen, you can see Dick's computer and tv-links, as the text and drawings shows. So let's go back to see the "Grayson cam". Where is Dick?

Oh!

He appears to be in the kitchen, having breakfast! Mhmm crocky crunch... Ahem anyways! I hate to break it to you, but there is no "series of cameras that Babs installed to spy on him". It's the camera of his computer. And come on... People complained about the name. How was she supposed to call it? "Cam N.381"? It's of Dick's computer, finding it is faster if called with his name...

"She does this without his permission."

Lol. Dick knows. He knows Barbara can always see him if she wants, and she will. He's very aware.

And even if he didn't want to? Easy solution! Dinah is the first one who tried this, actually. Let's hop onto Birds of Prey!

Birds of Prey #1 (1999)

In the very first issue of BoP (1999), Barbara sends Dinah a computer, so that they can talk more easily, send each other datas and all. So, what's Dinah's solution?

Et voilà! Easy, right?

So Dick is either stupid and can't even think "well... She can't see me if I cover the camera of the computer!" or he just... Doesn't care.

So what do you think this camera is called? "Lance cam"? "Canary cam"? Do we think she has a "Canary cam" because she enjoys watching her in scantily clad attire?

Anyways... I'm also sure everyone knows this other panel.

And here Barbara is clearly an hypocrite because Bruce installed cameras at her place when she "did" too...

Honestly... You really can't compare this. The situation is different.

Anyways do y'all know where that panel is from? This time, it is important to understand what happened, especially because here we only see Barbara's face...

I'll tell you very soon, but first, let's track back to Birds of Prey #1!

Here, we can see Barbara wandering around her place. Her computer left on the table, not facing her but the opposite side. However, we can see her rolling back to it from a high point of view. Her imagine appearing on a screen and a shoulder.

Someone is clearly spying on her and not through her computer.

So why are we back to issue #1? Well! The Bruce panel is from here! And no, I'm not going to talk about it yet. Let's move forward to the next issues.

Birds of Prey #2 (1999)

Here, we see Barbara again. And, again, from a point of view behind her and her computer. Unless she keeps them on...the floor...? And where she can't use them fast at that...

Birds of Prey #4 (1999)

Here, we can see Babs leaving the room full of computers, and yet? There's another camera, watching her. Spying on her.

Birds of Prey #5 (1999)

We can see the PoV from behind Barbara, from behind the computers...

And issue #6? It starts with many different PoV's.

From up in the corner of the room (where I doubt she could keep a computer...), from her sides, from behind, from up her head and many other angles... Turns out, obviously, that this is Bruce's doing.

He did it for her... But still...

"You thought I didn't know you were watching me."

Barbara does know, of course... But she wasn't supposed to know. Unlike Dick and Dinah.

And no, they couldn't be computer's around or cameras Babs herself installed at the place.

"Thanks for not installing one in my shower or bedroom, "big brother"."

She says it herself, Bruce installed cameras at her place.

No, Barbara never installed anything at Dick or Dinah's places. She hacks into them. Another example of her doing this is here:

Nightwing #66 (1996)

"You have cameras in the white house?"

"Don't be silly. The white house has cameras in the white house. I've just tapped into them."

Again, Barbara doesn't install, she hacks. That's... Literally what she always does...

The difference between the Dick/Dinah situation and the Bruce one is that Dick and Dinah is that they know about the camera. It's the computer's camera and they could always cover it if they don't want Barbara to see them. She literally had to ask Dinah to uncover it. Because otherwise, she can't switch camera and watch her from somewhere else.

With Bruce, he installed cameras all over her place without having her knowing. While she di know, she wasn't supposed to, she couldn't cover them if she wanted to.

No, Barbara isn't acting like an hypocrite. Everyone usually knows she can see them, she "didn't".

Some other moments people complain about is how Barbara owns Dinah's apartment building. Which... Isn't that better? Her job is also making sure her team is safe, this is a fast and better way for sure.

Or the recent Nightwing run by Tom Taylor.

Nightwing #107 (2016)

Apparently, Barbara can see through Dick's mask. And that's... Not respecting his privacy.

It's... Come on...

If Barbara is working as Oracle and not on the field, being able to see through Dick's mask is a good thing. By the way, he's fine with it and aware, just saying... And on the note "she doesn't want Dick to help Bea because she's his ex"... She's worried, gods. She's worrying about her boyfriend's safety. Even knowing his skills, it's normal to worry,

Okay guys, lesson learned from anti Babs people: If your partner worries about you, leave them. They're absolutely toxic and you shouldn't be with them.

Also this isn't the first time Barbara watches through a mask. She did the same with Dinah... You know... For the job?

Birds of Prey #1 (1999)

The only difference is that she had a mask for it. Dick already has one, so it's easier to put the camera there than giving him another one.

And I doubt Dick would be like "who cares about the job and saving people, my privacy comes first! I don't want my girlfriend, the woman I literally want to marry, to see me when I'm out."

So... Yeah. Barbara might "not respect boundaries", but everyone is aware and could easily stop her.

That article against DickBabs is so bad... They literally made up stuff? And of course, guess what site guys?

Never trust CBR articles guys... And never trust posts that doesn't give you the whole context of the scene or source of the panel.

Dislike Barbara all you want, but literally making up stuff about her is... Sad? Petty? I don't know. Not cool!🫵 It's not cool.

Took me so long to make this post... I kept stopping to look at Babs and Dinah in BoP! They're just... So beautiful.

[petchya]

A pitfall a lot of people fall into when drawing afro-textured Black hair is that they draw the curls as if they were loose, using sharp shapes that imply a very different flow than you'd find with 4c-adjacent coils.

See below:

While all three are hair textures people can have, larger shapes and sharper points show an increased loss of texture. Ideally, you should be using small, fairly uniform shapes if you aren't familiar enough with Black hair to experiment with how you show texture.

There are a lot of ways to use sharpness and small detail when designing Black hairstyles that don't necessitate looser curls! Shaping/styling can really take you almost anywhere.

And don't just listen to me! Check out Ice @creatingblackcharacters for beautiful Black-made art and her incredibly detailed syllabus. The more you pay Black people their due attention, the better you'll get.

[disco-troy]

DC: Look! Owlman murdered all of Dicks friends so Dick would have no support system and blackmailed him into changing himself for a mission, isn’t that insane! He’s so evil lol DC 2 minutes later: Bruce is isolating Dick from his friends again and forcing him to change himself for a mission. It’s hard but he’s a good father.

[disco-troy]

I actually really want to follow up on this, because Owlman is supposed to be a “Dark Reflection” of Batman, but he’s literally just a Bruce that went farther in the same direction. It drives me unhinged how DC literally shows this in Justice League (2011) 25 and Nightwing 30 are basically the same issue if you just switch the father figure. Both issues involve Bruce/Thomas fighting Dick in order to make him complete a mission for them (the Spyral mission, and pretending to be Talon respectively). 

“I’m here for you”

First, both men want total secrecy for their “talk” with Dick 

[Alfred: Master Bruce, my apologies, but there appears to be a malfunction in the lift. The door simply will not open. Bruce: The cave’s been having problems, Alfred. We’ve lost the cameras as well. I’m working on it. Get back to the mansion. It’ll be fine soon.]

Owlman: I want the cameras off when I go inside to talk to Grayson, Grid. I want to be alone. Make sure he obeys me Alfred” Alfred: “Yes, master Thomas”

Then, they both begin the fight by setting the stage: the world is in trouble. Things are dire. Owlman implies Dick’s culpability, Bruce goes farther and explicitly confirms it. He wasn’t enough. Nothing he does is enough. Being captured, being killed, the world nearly ending, he didn’t do enough to stop it.

Panel 1- Owlman: Everyone knows your real name, Richard. The society has already leved your apartment in Chicago. Your friends have been hunted Panel 2 - Owlman: His goal is nothing less than to enslave your earth and amass its power for himself, driven by his paranoia and fear. Panel 3 - [Bruce: “You let the crime syndicate capture you. You let them torture you. You let them give your secrets to the world. Dick: You weren’t there. Bruce: You let them turn you into a bomb. You let them kill you. Before Luthor rescued you, you let everyone watch you die”]

Then, they turn the situation over to Dick, he’s the only one who can help them, he’s the only one who can fix this. He is needed. This time, Owlman is explicit in explaining that Dick doesn’t have a choice. Bruce explains Dick is the only person who can do this. And if he doesn’t, it’s his friends and family who will pay the price.

Panel 1- Owlman: I don’t want your help destroying your world Richard. I need you help saving it from the crime syndicate. Panel 2 - Bruce: If you know our secrets, we won’t be able to fight. Dick: How can you ask me to do this Bruce? Bruce: Do you know how many people will die if we can’t fight? Panel 3 -  and for that I need your help Richard Panel 4 - Batman: We need a man inside, fight out what Spyral knows. What they want to know. We need you. They’ll come for you know. They’ll want someone like you. Someone who knows our secrets Panel 5 - Owlman: These are your only options Richard.

Dick says no. He says no to both men, a million different times in a million different ways. But it doesn’t matter. It was never going to matter. No matter the amount of times he said no, no matter if he won or lost the physical fight, they would not stop until the answer was a yes, and his life was decided.

Panel 1 -  Dick (to Owlman): No, thanks. Panel 2 -  Dick(to Bruce): … I just can’t Panel 3 -  Dick(to Bruce): No. I won’t do this. I can’t stay dead. I can’t do it to them! Panel 4 - *Dick kicks Bruce* NO! Panel 5 - Owlman: Until we’re ready, I have to chain you back up. Dick: No… Owlman: You’re in no shape to fight me any futher Richard. And if the syndicate find you free, they’ll kill you.

So to recap: Dick wakes up in an unfamiliar place, has to fight a man who “raised” him, who gives him an illusion of a choice, and forces him to change an identity and sacrifice his life, because everything depends on Dick. Then Dick wakes up in a bomb, almost dies, and then wakes up in an familar place, has to fight a man who raised him, who gives him an illusion of a choice, and forces him to change an identity and sacrifice his life, because everything depends on Dick.

It gets even worse when you look at the differences between the two fights, because Bruce was wearing his gauntlets the entire time they were fighting while Dick only had his hands wrapped up. Both Owlman and Batman had their cowl on. In both of the fights, Batman and Owlman are masked the entire time. Dick does not have the luxury of a mask during his fight with Thomas, and during his fight with Bruce, he loses it through the fight.

The fight with Bruce is also a lot longer and a lot bloodier. I mean just look at some of Dick’s body language. With Bruce, Dick is more ready to fight, he says no more, but it does nothing to change the outcome of the fight, except make it more painful for him.

Bruce: Everyone think you’re dead. I need you to stay dead.

Someone from a literal evil parallel universe hurts Dick less than the man who raised him? Every step of the way, the fight with Bruce is worse - he says Dick is at fault instead of implying it, he hits Dick harder and for longer, and the fight is in a familiar space, now weaponized.

Do you think Dick woke up in the batcave, finally feeling safe after a horrifying ordeal, only to be subjected to the same nightmare he thought he was saved from? Only to have it be even longer and even bloodier?

I genuinely can’t tell if these parallels were planned or not. Both issues are from different writers; Jl 25 (2011) was written by Geoff Johns and Nightwing 3 by King and Seeley, in preparation for Grayson. 

The parallels are so explicit, it’s difficult to imagine them not being planned. But on the other hand I can’t imagine them wanting to explicitly portray Bruce as an abuser to the same level as Owlman - a character who killed anyone Dick got close to in order to keep him dependent. If the parallels are on purpose dc is explicitly saying Bruce is manipulative and abusive. But it’s not what DC says in any official capacity and even if it was, it is never addressed again; Bruce is never seen realizing how horrible and abusive and isolating his actions are.  Dick says that if he goes on the mission, things can never be the same again, and then they just are?!? And a part of it is the circular notion of comics, things need to go back to the way things were, but it’s no excuse for why DC runs right up to the line, alludes to a horrifying conclusion, and then pretends nothing happened??

People tend to defend Bruce by saying that even if what he does is abusive, his intentions are good - which is absolutely not a valid reason to excuse abuse, although it’s very common. But Owlman loves his Dick Grayson too - his intentions are the exact same as Bruce’s. And there is no conceivable way to excuse Owlman’s overt manipulation and isolation of his Dick Grayson. What DC is saying, or what DC should be saying by presenting these parallels, is that what Bruce does to Dick is not okay. That even though he loves Dick, he still hurts him because of the actions he chooses to take. DC will literally walk all the way up to explicitly saying so and then just turn around and pretend this entire story arc doesn’t exist?????????

The other option, and maybe even worse than the first one, is that dc doesn’t even properly realize the parallels they are drawing. And if it was an accident, What does that mean about how DC sees Dick and Bruce’s relationship, that they can accidentally parallel Bruce to his evil self? That a writer writing a villain manipulating Dick when he’s at a low point will structure a story in the exact same way a writer writing Bruce sending Dick on a mission?

But maybe the most chilling question of all,  if the Dick Grayson of Earth-3 had to die to get away from his Owlman, what does that mean for our Dick Grayson?

[three-semicolons]

Nahhhhh these guys ain’t fighting over spying on each other when we know damn well they’re playing rock-paper-scissors for camera space economy in Dick’s refrigerator

[qqchurch]

[badalloc]

Torture? Fine. Psychological trauma? OK. Forcing that character into a torment nexus where she meets her worst fears? Sign me up!

Put that same character into a mildly embarrassing social situation and I am *struggling* to get through that chapter.

[hotwingenthusiast]

Average Robin has two dead parents statistic is actually incorrect, Jason Todd, who had six dead parents is an outlier adn should not be counted

[three-semicolons]

Mothering. Meet hen house.

For what it’s worth, they’re both very sorry for the inconvenience.

[three-semicolons]

Dick defending and/or glazing Roy is my favorite thing ever. Roy is great and wonderful and you need to respect him NOW >:(

(And also. Also.

“You can write a poem about it later”, Damian says. If I may quote Dick’s own thoughts:

I see what you’re doing here, Damian.)

[applepixls]

hey uh. so you wrote that thing A While Ago but.

I truly do appreciate that post you made about sfth's portrayal of women and the recurring patterns the guys fall into. It was around the time lock stock' first ep had dropped I think, and Maureen happened. And then I realized that even if their female characters were fun, their portrayals were always going to be limited. And I thought I would just have those thoughts inside me forever, because the "there's no way the fandom would react with an open mind."

And then I saw your post. And not only did I not see the expected "it's not that deep" or "can we keep then fandom fun" or what have you, but I saw people freely bringing up their own concerns or decision that had made them uncomfortable and actively saying "and it feels icky that they're praised for the bare minimum when playing women" and "this joke was not okay for them to make", like. The fandom is about the GROUP, yes the longforms and the d&d and the games, but its also about admiration and fondness for the members, but THAT DIDN'T MEAN THAT WE PUT THEM ON A PEDESTAL or that we denied their privilege and probable ignorance as cis men and that made me really happy. Not only was I not alone in my sentiment, but people were actively discussing it without anyone fighting and how nice is that? I don't know if that's a product of being a smaller fandom or what, but I am glad people were good sports about it. I think it got a fair amount of notes? (I'm not sure what is "standard" for a typical sfth post)

I also realized a lot with that post (I hadn't even considered the longforms. Like I saw clear as day what happened with Cindy but I hadn't realized how the majority of their female characters are created with a pre-existing "add-on" to a male character's life?)

Sorry for getting rambly here, I truly did try to make this brief lol. I'm very eepy and don't know if I'm making sense currently.

Just wanted to thank you for starting that convo. Truly, it meant a lot to me personally seeing people discussing it freely without people telling them to stop looking into it.

You don't have to answer this if you don't want, like I said, that post was A While Ago but. Yeah just wanted you to know that I appreciated it. For the thousandth time.

Hope you have a good day/night, whichever! :)

fbkgndnk thank you for the ask!!

to be honest i wasn’t expecting as good of a response to my post as it got, at best i expected a few empty reblogs and minimal notes, at worst a bunch of fandom infighting. i was really impressed with how many people were coming out with thoughtful concerns about the topic

that post might be one of the things i’m proudest of contributing to this fandom so ig thank you for the acknowledgment? i do hope that as a fandom we keep having these conversations and hold high standards about stuff like this

thanks again for the ask, have a great morning/afternoon/evening/night :))

[aofikofi]

look at my heroes dawg we're not getting saved....

[discowing-ding]

tim drake the type to pre-plan drunk texts before a night out

[amipasta]

stephanie did not become robin again for damian for people to act as though they don’t like each other. damian did not let talia take stephanie to the lazarus pit for people to act as though they don’t like each other. stephanie did not cater to exactly how damian needs to be comforted for people to act as though they don’t like each other. cassie sandsmark did not call stephanie damian’s sister for people to act as though they don’t like each other!!!!

[three-semicolons]

Both Titans romps where Dick brings a brother end with them dangling from the ceiling together.

It means a lot, actually. He’s trying to give them the authentic Titans experience. What a good brother.

[vampire-loving-vampire]

hey white people . if u dont know how to pronounce an ethnic persons name *google it* or if its someone ur talking directly to *ask them*. dont fucking do that "erm i dont know how to pronounce but __" or "im gonna butcher this haha" or "im not even gonna bother trying" . ur not funny. do u know what poc think when they hear u saying that ? u sound like a loser asshole and we dont want to spend time with u . im so fucking tired of watching youtube videos about media from my country and hearing those phrases. im tired of people saying that to my face . i respect someone who clearly looked it up and is tryong but says my name wrong over someone who just goes with whatever bad first guess they had without trying. u have too many resources at ur disposal to keep doing this. for the love of god just Fucking Try. if ur confused Just Try.

[despair-tea]

I highly recommend Forvo.com, the website where native speakers of a language contribute their time and voices to read words and names in their own language. It is a fantastic way to expand your world, open up your ears, and it's way more likely to nab a hit than just googling.

[vampire-loving-vampire]

wow , I didn't know this existed, thanks so much for sharing the resource !! I will absolutely be using it now too 🖤

[amipasta]

stephanie duke and cassandra are all very smart !!!! they are amazing detectives !!!!!! duke and stephanie have been training from a very young age and cassandra was trained closely by the batman and barbara gordon !!!!!!