low tide

all the fandom stuff I'm interested in. current obsession is ranwan I guess. chu wanning psychoanalyst and mo ran's defense lawyer. 20+

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

my 2ha meta analysis (& other posts)

my attempts at organization. also I think most of these contain spoilers, so tread carefully if you haven't finished 2ha.

❀ Table of Contents ❀

Chu Wanning's decision: "Taxian-jun vs. 30 people" (link)

Did Chu Wanning enjoy the rape and actually consent to everything with Taxian-jun? (link)

Mo Ran's "Redemption" arc is actually a "Recovery" arc of an imperfect victim (link)

Chu Wanning deserves better? 🥴 (link)

About Mo Ran's Age (link)

Chu Wanning's Love for Mo Ran (link)

Mo Ran’s "Redemption" and the Flower (link)

Chu Wanning’s feelings for Shi Mei/Hua Binan (link)

Chu Wanning’s attraction towards teenage Mo Ran (link)

About Chu Wanning Initiating (link)

Other Posts:

Ranwan comforting each other "pain, pain, go away..." (link)

Preferred translation of "Two lifetimes, they belong to you. No regrets" (Poll) (link)

Possessive Chu Wanning (link)

Chu Wanning saying "I love you" (link)

Mo Ran's face card never declines (link)

Chu Wanning thinks Mo Ran looks like a beautiful merman (link)

Mo Ran is Chu Wanning's Weakness (link)

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

"Taxian-jun vs 30 people"

[2ha major spoilers for the ending]

so I've been re-reading the ending of 2ha so I could explore something that bothered me the first time I read it. It's the scene when Hua Binan forces Chu Wanning to make a choice: Chu Wanning has to let 30 people die and in exchange Hua Binan will free Taxian-jun from his control vs. kill Taxian-jun to save 30 people.

At first I contextualized it as similar to the trolley problem: would you rather save the person you love most, or would you rather save 30 random people? And that's what bothered me about Chu Wanning's decision, because he choose to kill Taxian-jun to prevent other people from dying. It left me feeling uncomfortable because I thought if it was reversed, Mo Ran would definitely choose Chu Wanning in this situation right? Mo Ran would sacrifice any amount of people for Chu Wanning, but Chu Wanning wouldn't do the same for him. It made me wonder, is Chu Wanning's morality so important to him that it takes priority over Mo Ran? And worse, that it somehow made Chu Wanning's love for Mo Ran inferior to Mo Ran's love for Chu Wanning.

But I realize that I've been looking at it wrong for multiple reasons.

First of all, it's not actually 30 random people vs Mo Ran, it's just the false dichotomy that Shi Mei presents to Chu Wanning, because Chu Wanning already knows that if 30 people are killed to open the doors of the demon realm, it will destroy the world because heaven will enact retribution over the mortal world. So instead, the decision is more like having to choose between "Taxian-jun vs the world" which has far more gravity.

Two, Taxian-jun is not a living being. He is a re-animated corpse that might have wisp of soul left in him, but he is still a corpse nonetheless. He is only "alive" because he is under Hua Binan's control, so once that control stops, he will disintegrate. Chu Wanning already saw the living Mo Ran die, so Mo Ran in both lifetimes is fully dead, even if his corpse appears to be sentient and alive and acts on it's own will (to an extent). Even if Taxian-jun is set "free" by Hua Binan, that freedom does not mean life, because he is already dead.

Three, Taxian-jun will get forced into more violence. Shi Mei is manipulating him as a puppet to kill 30 more people because he does not have the power to do it himself. Letting this happen would mean Chu Wanning is allowing Mo Ran to become a killer again, adding more burden and suffering to Mo Ran's soul, when Mo Ran's original wish was to save people and protect them. In Mo Ran's words as a youth, "I want a weapon like Tianwen so less people have to suffer."

Four, when Mo Ran is fully alive and in danger, Chu Wanning does prioritize him and put him first. Mo Ran gets his golden core taken out (during his punishment at Tianyin pavillion), Chu Wanning rushes to go save him, and he kills 11 innocent cultivators and injures hundreds so he can save Mo Ran. Chu Wanning will act without hesitation to save Mo Ran, even if it means innocent people have to die.

Five, by killing Taxian-jun, Chu Wanning was actually the one who set him free, instead of conceding to the false "freedom" offered by Hua Binan. By killing Taxian-jun, it would free him of Hua Binan's control and he would no longer be a puppet. It would allow his soul and his body to rest in peace. If Chu Wanning had chosen to concede with Hua Binan, it would be a selfish decision on his part, to keep Mo Ran with him, instead of doing the selfless thing of mercy killing Taxian-jun to allow him to have true freedom, and also saving the world in the process. Instead of choosing what he would want most, to be with Mo Ran, the person he loves most, he chooses to be selfless and make the decision that's best for Mo Ran, even if it broke his heart.

Six, it would be idiotic to trust Hua Binan in this situation. If he allows for 30 people to get killed, would Hua Binan truly let Mo Ran go free? What even is "freedom"? Is it life? And as discussed before, it would not be life, because Mo Ran and Taxian-jun were already dead. And although Hua Binan told him "it would only be 30 people," Chu Wanning knew that by opening the demon gates, the whole world would be in peril. Hua Binan’s offer was a lie from the start, because he never told the whole truth.

Lastly, I think truthfully, Mo Ran would choose the same thing if the situation was reversed. Perhaps Taxian-jun would choose Chu Wanning over the whole world, because on the surface it's the obvious (and selfish) choice, of course he would choose Chu Wanning over everyone else. But Mo-zongshi would most probably choose the same thing as Chu Wanning. He would be driven by his responsibility to protect the world, he would want to save people, and he would understand that Chu Wanning would be a lifeless corpse that needed to be put to rest, even if it would be heartbreaking to destroy the last remnants of Chu Wanning. Because in the end, Chu Wanning would want him to make that decision too.

TLDR; Hua Binan tried to scam Chu Wanning and Chu Wanning didn't fall for it. As hard as it was, he made the right decision.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

ranwan comforting each other "pain, pain, go away..."

after chu wanning gets injured protecting mo ran in vol. 1, mo ran stays by his bedside and cradles him, comforting him through the pain

then later, when mo ran is in pain after getting his core taken out (which was a consequence for the chain of events after mo ran takes the flower to protect chu wanning), chu wanning holds him in his arms and comforts him through the pain

they are each other's biggest comfort :')

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

Did Chu Wanning enjoy the rape and actually consent to everything with Taxian-jun?

[2HA spoilers for the whole book]

Long story short -- it's complicated.

But for the more expanded answer (in my opinion).

He ALWAYS loves the act of having sex with Mo Ran. He loves Mo Ran's body, is completely and fully attracted to him (and is attracted to no one else BUT him), to the point where his sexual desire for Mo Ran is capable of overpowering all his ascetism he has built up his entire life. All Chu Wanning's reservations and shyness melt in the face of Mo Ran, and all that's left are residues in his failing attempt to save face. He loves Mo Ran, he loves Mo Ran's dick, he loves getting dicked down, he loves getting ravaged, he loves when Mo Ran is rough and does whatever he wants, and he finds it very hot.

He loves Mo Ran's overwhelming love and desire for him. He loves being loved by Mo Ran. But most of all, he loves to make Mo Ran happy and wants Mo Ran to feel loved too.

What he didn't love regarding the rape was the context and reasoning around it.

Pre-flower knowledge: he loathed that Mo Ran fell into madness seemingly of his own accord, hated that he subjugated the entire world and kidnapped and raped him and committed unspeakable deeds. He hated that the boy who used to be so full of love and life and wanted to be a good person became this monster who fell into darkness and was seemingly reveling in it so he could get his revenge after Shi Mei's death. He thought Mo Ran was "deficient by nature, beyond remedy" and wanted to kill him. And he hated himself for being a bad shizun and failing to prevent Mo Ran from going down this path.

Post-flower knowledge: he blamed himself entirely ("it was I who wronged you, I won't blame you in life or death") and he started to engage in all the sex willingly (even if he hated it and it was extremely hard for him to go through) because he knew it wasn't Mo Ran's fault (and he had to go along with it in order to hide his newfound knowledge). He thought it was his fault for not detecting the flower in Mo Ran sooner, he thought it was his fault for thinking Mo Ran committed all his crimes of his own accord, and he thought it was his fault for failing to protect Mo Ran. He knew that Mo Ran was incapable of feeling genuine happiness and love at that point, and all that was left of Mo Ran was a vessel of hatred and obsession and lust. He wanted to love Taxian-jun but couldn't show it (at risk of being exposed to the mastermind behind the flower). All that was left that he could do was go along with Taxian-jun's whims and covertly hatch up a plan to save him (which did end up being successful because Chu Wanning is a badass).

What he hated about the rape pre-flower knowledge was that Mo Ran had fallen into darkness, he was no longer the boy from before, and he was truly evil. What he hated about the rape post-flower knowledge was that Mo Ran was suffering and getting tortured, and Chu Wanning had to witness it firsthand while also getting tortured whilst blaming himself for not protecting Mo Ran.

And what he REALLY hated about the rape was NOT the sex itself → it was Taxian-jun's disrespect and complete disregard for Chu Wanning as a human being. As a person who has agency and feelings. As someone who deserves to be loved properly. Taxian-jun wanted to use Chu Wanning just for his body, as an object of lust who doesn't deserve to be loved, as an object of loathing as revenge for letting Shi Mei. He forced Chu Wanning to become his concubine Chu Fei against his well, and then forced him into having sex.

This is especially hard because --as revealed through Chu Wanning's backstory-- Chu Wanning was created by Huaizui from the Flame Emperor's divine wood. He was not born like a regular human being, and he was not treated like a human being his entire life. Huaizui treated him like a wooden replacement for Chu Lan and he would be given to Chu Xun so Huazui could apologize for what happened in Lin'an. He raised him to be the perfect replacement for someone else and he had already decided Chu Wanning's fate for him. He never treated Chu Wanning like a human being who could choose what he wanted to do with his life.

The cultivation world is no different. They all treat Chu Wanning like an untouchable god who is incapable of being on the same level as mere mortals. That Chu Wanning has no need for petty 'mortal' things like the company of others, being loved, having romance, or being sad after you get hurt or injured. He's untouchable and invincible in their eyes -- which means he doesn't get to be mortal, and he is given absolutely no grace to be imperfect or to make no mistakes. He is simply a giant tree, a looming, all-powerful, inhumane thing that watches over everyone and can take care of itself, while everyone else gets to enjoy being human. Over the years Chu Wanning has quietly grown to accept this, but it's very clear on the inside he is very hurt by this.

It hurts when everyone treats you this way, but it hurts most of all when the person you love treats you this way.

When Chu Wanning had sex with Taxian-jun, he loved the actual sex and thought it was hot. But most of all, he wanted to feel like Mo Ran loved him too. But he thought it was not true and that it could never be true, with or without the flower. Which is why the rape was so painful for him.

He hated that the sex was not an act of love.

In the 2nd timeline, once it's revealed that it's mutual and they both love each other: Chu Wanning loves ALL the sex he has with Mo Ran. It doesn't matter if it's rough, it doesn't matter if it's gentle, it doesn't matter if he's having sex with Mo-zongshi, it doesn't matter if he's having sex with Taxian-jun, it doesn't matter if he's tied up or if aphrodisiacs are used on him, he loves all of it because he loves having sex with Mo Ran, loves Mo Ran's body and dick, and he just straight up loves Mo Ran and wants to belong to him completely - whether it's Taxian-jun or Mo-zongshi. It doesn't matter if Mo Ran is insanely lustful and obsessive (also because Chu Wanning is too he just shows it in a far more subdued way EXCEPT when he gets jealous). He loves being loved and cherished by Mo Ran and treated like a spouse, instead of treated like an object. But most of all, he knows that Mo Ran is in his right mind, he's enjoying it too, and it makes him happy. He loves to make Mo Ran feel loved. And now, sex for them is fully an act of love.

(the only thing that he actually doesn't really like is voicing out his consent out loud, because Chu Wanning is a shy cat. And also let's be real, he likes it rough more then he likes it gentle but that's just down to Wanning's preference LMAO).

TLDR; Did Chu Wanning like getting raped? my answer is pretty much: it's complicated. He loves Mo Ran. He loves Mo Ran beyond anything and more than everything.

[finisnihil]

One thing about me is that I typically find characters who are genuinely bad people and who chose to be better much more interesting than misunderstood antiheros. Allow characters to actually make real impactful mistakes and bad choices. Allow them to be unlikable. Allow the discomfort of reckoning horrific past choices with better future ones.

I find that someone who was god awful and chose for whatever reason to be better, to try and help fix the harm they caused and reduce similar harm going forward, who struggle and struggle as guilt and frustration eat at them, and yet don't forsake growth for the sake of the safety of stagnation, is much more interesting and complex than someone who killed people but it's okay because the people they killed all deserved it so they're fine the way they are.

If your character makes one shallow oopsie and grows from it that's not redemption that's an after school detention. Redemption should be messy and difficult but ultimately worth it. You will only be able to pull off such an effective redemption if you aren't afraid of your audience having mixed feelings on the character in question.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

I love this and I agree and I think characters who are genuinely bad people and need to be redeemed are super interesting....although I think Mo Ran (from 2ha) in particular is kinda....complicated when it comes to his arc. [2ha spoilers for the entire book]

personally I don't think that Mo Ran specifically had a "redemption" arc, I feel like he had more of a messy 'recovery' arc where he was not a perfect victim. Without the flower it 100% would have just been a pure redemption arc, but with the flower that ultimately brainwashed him and influenced his decisions, amplifying his most evil and depraved desires by 1000x (causing him to do what he did) and erasing his most happy memories, along with forcing him to fall in love with the perpetrator, I don't think Mo Ran is really at fault over his sins (or at least not completely).

He's definitely at fault for his more nefarious thoughts like wanting to burn down Rufeng sect or subjugate the entire world, but without the flower they would have stayed thoughts. The flower takes even random passing evil thoughts and forces you to act on it. Like they said in the novel, it would take the literal Bodhisattva to be able to resist it and not fall into madness. He's at fault for burning down the Drunken Jade House, but I think that falls under the example of the post of "killing someone who deserves it," considering he was abused by Madam Mo and Mo Nian & his friends and was locked in a cage and locked in a shed with a dead girl who was raped (by Mo Nian & friends) and blamed for being the one to rape her.

Maybe Mo Ran did have more capacity for evil (especially considering his past), but I think the novel shows that he would not have gone down that path if it was not for the flower (as evidenced by Mo Ran going to Red Lotus Pavilion to try and talk it out with Chu Wanning after he got whipped instead of harboring resentment for him. He was ready to completely forgive Chu Wanning after thinking it over for a few days. And he even confessed that he liked Chu Wanning and tried to protect him from taking the flower instead). Once the flower's effects start wearing off he makes every effort to be a good person, he grows into Mo-zongshi and learns to appreciate and love Chu Wanning and Xue Meng and care about the people around him.

Heck, I don't even think the plot truly punishes him for what he did (in the 1st timeline). When he goes down to the underworld (to rescue Chu Wanning) his soul is checked and it's shown that thousands of people scorned him and cursed him to death, but in the next second he's clean and just goes free. At Tianyin Pavillion, he's not punished for any sins Taxian-jun committed in the 1st timeline (they don't put him on trial for his genocide of the world for example), they don't condemn his soul to be shattered and to have him never go through the cycle of reincarnation again, he gets his core taken out by Mu Yuanli (for plot reasons), and he explains his whole backstory to the cultivation world and he still has Shisheng peak on his side and Ye Wangxi on his side (and like half the crowd is not onboard with punishing Mo Ran, there's a visible uneasiness in the audience with conflicting opinions), and he's just punished for Taxian-jun killing the cultivators on the island (I read this part in MTL so that's my bad aha).

It is true that Mo Ran's arc is very messy and difficult and he doesn't let himself up and guilt and frustration do eat away at him and his recovery is a very difficult process for him, and he tries to fix all the harm he caused and never wants to repeat any of it. But! Similar to Chu Wanning who is self loathing and hates himself and believes that he is unlovable, Mo Ran is very unreliable when it comes to introspection regarding himself and this is made infinitely more complicated with the flower.

Mo Ran feels guilty ofc and thinks he committed all his sins and he's at fault for everything because he doesn't want to let himself off free and genuinely wants to be a good person, but Chu Wanning doesn't even think he's really at fault for it which is why Chu Wanning doesn't even forgive him. Chu Wanning doesn't even forgive him because he thinks Mo Ran doesn't even need to be forgiven. He instead thinks "I'm the one who should be apologizing to you. It was me who failed to protect you."

We actually do see what happens when Chu Wanning thinks Mo Ran became Taxian-jun of his own free will without flower influence -- Chu Wanning starts hating him and actually thinks about killing Mo Ran and even attempts to do so! When he figures out that Mo Ran is being influenced by the flower though, he willingly gets subjugated by Mo Ran** (it's complicated but he does allow Mo Ran to go through with it even if it hurts him immensely). And then he tries to save Mo Ran because he thinks Mo Ran can be saved, and splits his soul and sacrifices himself for Mo Ran in order to give Mo Ran a second chance. But before the flower? He thought Mo Ran was "deficient by nature, beyond remedy" (and he genuinely means this).

And then after Chu Wanning gets all his memories back (after going to Mount Longxue, being kidnapped by Shi Mei, and then being out of it for a few days) he loves and accepts Taxian-jun completely. Completely different then what happened with Shi Mei, who Chu Wanning blames for everything (ehh he also blames himself in some part in typical Chu Wanning fashion, thinking he was a bad teacher). But Chu Wanning calls him a bastard, fights him to death, and he gets the full extent of Chu Wanning's hatred.

Personally though, I don't have a problem with Mo Ran's arc not being a 'redemption' arc because I think having him being a victim on the road to recovery is also interesting. And it also makes Shi Mei extremely interesting too (he's very complex as the main villain), and he's the one who really gets the redemption arc (whether he's redeemed is up to the audience or not). I think Mo Ran being a puppet for a large part of the novel makes his storyline very tragic and makes his relationship with Shi Mei and the ethics surrounding the BBBF's very interesting. The inhumane treatment of the BBBF's causing Shi Mei to do what he did and use the flower on Mo Ran, a fellow BBBF, even though he swore to never hurt a BBBF and to save all of them, and allowing for the genocide of the world in order to save his people demonstrates the hypocrisy of Shi Mei and perpetuates the cycle of abuse, that hurting people to save others just continues to keep hurting more people.

And I don't think the flower plotline was out of the blue, considering the foreshadowing (Mo Ran meeting the dragon who saw two souls inside him, sensing that he had evil energy, Bu'gui having a weird effect on Chu Wanning at the auction), and Mo Ran having visible gaps in his logic right from the jump (his reasoning over why he "hates" Chu Wanning that readers can see right through, his reasoning for why he "loves" Shi Mei, him wondering why he has empathy towards the people of Lin'an etc.).

I will say though, I think he did Song Qiutong dirty, and she did deserve better. But in this case he never really had a chance to right his wrongs with her (nor did he even think it was a wrong in the first place), and she ended up dying in brutal way in both timelines. Rong Jiu is more complicated but I do like the way the narrative gave us his side and why he did the things he did...unlike Song Qiutong who is fully framed as this faux innocent seductress who is only out for herself without exploring any of the reason for why she did the things she did.

TLDR; I don't think Mo Ran arc really qualifies for a redemption arc, even though everything he goes through is very similar to one. I still think his recovery arc is very interesting and he was 100% not a "perfect victim." But the flower is very important when it comes to analyzing why everything in 2ha happened the way it did.

(and end note I think 2ha would be veryyy different if Mo Ran did that all with no flower influence. Actually I think at that point he would be a different character then the Mo Ran we have now, if he was truly able to commit genocide on the world, torture and rape Chu Wanning for more then a decade just based off the reasoning that TXJ and MR 1.0 gave. I also think 2ha would not have a happy ending for Mo Ran to get his no flower redemption, but hey that's just me lol).

[finisnihil]

I am not caught up totally on 2ha so I'm not gonna comment on this for now (I have no idea what flower you speak of HELP) but I included him in the tags from what I have seen of his character so far. Apologies if my lack of late series context makes him an incompatible example for my original post! When I finish reading the story I might come back and give an actual developed addition to your response as I don't want to argue or agree with something I don't have an understanding of haha!

Anyways I appreciate your analysis even most of it goes over my head rn 😭🥀

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

HAHAHA no worries, and I'm sorry that I ended up spoiling you! 😭😭 Not gonna lie, it might be better to forget about everything I wrote because 2ha part 3 hits you like a truck when you have no idea what's coming.

But yeah I really do recommend coming back to the post that I wrote after reading the entirety of 2ha so you can come to your own conclusion. But one thing that I will say though, I love Mo Ran and I think his arc was very well done <3

[finisnihil]

One thing about me is that I typically find characters who are genuinely bad people and who chose to be better much more interesting than misunderstood antiheros. Allow characters to actually make real impactful mistakes and bad choices. Allow them to be unlikable. Allow the discomfort of reckoning horrific past choices with better future ones.

I find that someone who was god awful and chose for whatever reason to be better, to try and help fix the harm they caused and reduce similar harm going forward, who struggle and struggle as guilt and frustration eat at them, and yet don't forsake growth for the sake of the safety of stagnation, is much more interesting and complex than someone who killed people but it's okay because the people they killed all deserved it so they're fine the way they are.

If your character makes one shallow oopsie and grows from it that's not redemption that's an after school detention. Redemption should be messy and difficult but ultimately worth it. You will only be able to pull off such an effective redemption if you aren't afraid of your audience having mixed feelings on the character in question.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

I love this and I agree and I think characters who are genuinely bad people and need to be redeemed are super interesting....although I think Mo Ran (from 2ha) in particular is kinda....complicated when it comes to his arc. [2ha spoilers for the entire book]

personally I don't think that Mo Ran specifically had a "redemption" arc, I feel like he had more of a messy 'recovery' arc where he was not a perfect victim. Without the flower it 100% would have just been a pure redemption arc, but with the flower that ultimately brainwashed him and influenced his decisions, amplifying his most evil and depraved desires by 1000x (causing him to do what he did) and erasing his most happy memories, along with forcing him to fall in love with the perpetrator, I don't think Mo Ran is really at fault over his sins (or at least not completely).

He's definitely at fault for his more nefarious thoughts like wanting to burn down Rufeng sect or subjugate the entire world, but without the flower they would have stayed thoughts. The flower takes even random passing evil thoughts and forces you to act on it. Like they said in the novel, it would take the literal Bodhisattva to be able to resist it and not fall into madness. He's at fault for burning down the Drunken Jade House, but I think that falls under the example of the post of "killing someone who deserves it," considering he was abused by Madam Mo and Mo Nian & his friends and was locked in a cage and locked in a shed with a dead girl who was raped (by Mo Nian & friends) and blamed for being the one to rape her.

Maybe Mo Ran did have more capacity for evil (especially considering his past), but I think the novel shows that he would not have gone down that path if it was not for the flower (as evidenced by Mo Ran going to Red Lotus Pavilion to try and talk it out with Chu Wanning after he got whipped instead of harboring resentment for him. He was ready to completely forgive Chu Wanning after thinking it over for a few days. And he even confessed that he liked Chu Wanning and tried to protect him from taking the flower instead). Once the flower's effects start wearing off he makes every effort to be a good person, he grows into Mo-zongshi and learns to appreciate and love Chu Wanning and Xue Meng and care about the people around him.

Heck, I don't even think the plot truly punishes him for what he did (in the 1st timeline). When he goes down to the underworld (to rescue Chu Wanning) his soul is checked and it's shown that thousands of people scorned him and cursed him to death, but in the next second he's clean and just goes free. At Tianyin Pavillion, he's not punished for any sins Taxian-jun committed in the 1st timeline (they don't put him on trial for his genocide of the world for example), they don't condemn his soul to be shattered and to have him never go through the cycle of reincarnation again, he gets his core taken out by Mu Yuanli (for plot reasons), and he explains his whole backstory to the cultivation world and he still has Shisheng peak on his side and Ye Wangxi on his side (and like half the crowd is not onboard with punishing Mo Ran, there's a visible uneasiness in the audience with conflicting opinions), and he's just punished for Taxian-jun killing the cultivators on the island (I read this part in MTL so that's my bad aha).

It is true that Mo Ran's arc is very messy and difficult and he doesn't let himself up and guilt and frustration do eat away at him and his recovery is a very difficult process for him, and he tries to fix all the harm he caused and never wants to repeat any of it. But! Similar to Chu Wanning who is self loathing and hates himself and believes that he is unlovable, Mo Ran is very unreliable when it comes to introspection regarding himself and this is made infinitely more complicated with the flower.

Mo Ran feels guilty ofc and thinks he committed all his sins and he's at fault for everything because he doesn't want to let himself off free and genuinely wants to be a good person, but Chu Wanning doesn't even think he's really at fault for it which is why Chu Wanning doesn't even forgive him. Chu Wanning doesn't even forgive him because he thinks Mo Ran doesn't even need to be forgiven. He instead thinks "I'm the one who should be apologizing to you. It was me who failed to protect you."

We actually do see what happens when Chu Wanning thinks Mo Ran became Taxian-jun of his own free will without flower influence -- Chu Wanning starts hating him and actually thinks about killing Mo Ran and even attempts to do so! When he figures out that Mo Ran is being influenced by the flower though, he willingly gets subjugated by Mo Ran** (it's complicated but he does allow Mo Ran to go through with it even if it hurts him immensely). And then he tries to save Mo Ran because he thinks Mo Ran can be saved, and splits his soul and sacrifices himself for Mo Ran in order to give Mo Ran a second chance. But before the flower? He thought Mo Ran was "deficient by nature, beyond remedy" (and he genuinely means this). But AFTER he finds out it was because of the flower? "It was I who wronged you. I won't blame you in life or in death."

And then after Chu Wanning gets all his memories back (after going to Mount Longxue, being kidnapped by Shi Mei, and then being out of it for a few days) he loves and accepts Taxian-jun completely. Completely different then what happened with Shi Mei, who Chu Wanning blames for everything (ehh he also blames himself in some part in typical Chu Wanning fashion, thinking he was a bad teacher). But Chu Wanning calls him a bastard, fights him to death, and he gets the full extent of Chu Wanning's hatred.

Personally though, I don't have a problem with Mo Ran's arc not being a 'redemption' arc because I think having him being a victim on the road to recovery is also interesting. And it also makes Shi Mei extremely interesting too (he's very complex as the main villain), and he's the one who really gets the redemption arc (whether he's redeemed is up to the audience or not). I think Mo Ran being a puppet for a large part of the novel makes his storyline very tragic and makes his relationship with Shi Mei and the ethics surrounding the BBBF's very interesting. The inhumane treatment of the BBBF's causing Shi Mei to do what he did and use the flower on Mo Ran, a fellow BBBF, even though he swore to never hurt a BBBF and to save all of them, and allowing for the genocide of the world in order to save his people demonstrates the hypocrisy of Shi Mei and perpetuates the cycle of abuse, that hurting people to save others just continues to keep hurting more people.

And I don't think the flower plotline was out of the blue, considering the foreshadowing (Mo Ran meeting the dragon who saw two souls inside him, sensing that he had evil energy, Bu'gui having a weird effect on Chu Wanning at the auction), and Mo Ran having visible gaps in his logic right from the jump (his reasoning over why he "hates" Chu Wanning that readers can see right through, his reasoning for why he "loves" Shi Mei, him wondering why he has empathy towards the people of Lin'an etc.).

I will say though, I think he did Song Qiutong dirty, and she did deserve better. But in this case he never really had a chance to right his wrongs with her (nor did he even think it was a wrong in the first place), and she ended up dying in brutal way in both timelines. Rong Jiu is more complicated but I do like the way the narrative gave us his side and why he did the things he did...unlike Song Qiutong who is fully framed as this faux innocent seductress who is only out for herself without exploring any of the reason for why she did the things she did.

TLDR; I don't think Mo Ran arc really qualifies for a redemption arc, even though everything he goes through is very similar to one. I still think his recovery arc is very interesting and he was 100% not a "perfect victim." But the flower is very important when it comes to analyzing why everything in 2ha happened the way it did.

(and end note I think 2ha would be veryyy different if Mo Ran did that all with no flower influence. Actually I think at that point he would be a different character then the Mo Ran we have now, if he was truly able to commit genocide on the world, torture and rape Chu Wanning for more then a decade just based off the reasoning that TXJ and MR 1.0 gave. I also think 2ha would not have a happy ending for Mo Ran to get his no flower redemption, but hey that's just me lol).

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

What is your preferred translation of "Two lifetimes, they belong to you. No regrets." ?

"Two lifetimes, they belong to you. No regrets." (fan trans/mtl)

"Two lifetimes, I've been yours. No regrets." (Official)

"In both lifetimes, I belong to you. No regrets." (Most direct/accurate)

Voting ended onAug 10, 2025

Small Correction: The Official is "For two lifetimes, I've been yours. No regrets."

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

possessive chu wanning I will always love you. one of his sexiest moments ever.

"I don't remember giving you permission to hurt my disciple (husband)" !?!?!? The way he protects Mo Ran!! His cold smile! The way he acts so conceited in this scene! Like how fucking dare you hurt him and injure him he's MINE.

He paused, then pulled Mo Ran closer. "Listen up: this person is MINE. I'm taking him."

Go and claim what's yours! Go and take Mo Ran, he belongs to you and no one else, he's only yours Wanning!! I love this scene so much.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

chu wanning deserves better? 🥴

sorry I will never understand people who ship shi mei and chu wanning together as a genuine viable alternative to 2ha. maybe (and I mean *maybe* the size of a speck of dirt, and by maybe I mean actually no) you could make a case for shi mei 2.0 but HUA BINAN??? OG TIMELINE SHI MEI???? And the reasoning is because mo ran is a terrible person and chu wanning deserves better? Don't make me laugh!

The same Hua Binan who literally wanted to commit genocide on the whole cultivation world, who was going to use the flower on chu wanning (who he supposedly loved by the way!), who successfully used it on mo ran and completely took away his agency and made him a literal puppet, watched as chu wanning was suffering and was like "damn wish I had a turn to get some of that shizun ass" (instead of feeling even the slightest empathy for him), tries to rape him with no manipulation whatsoever, views him as a literal plaything instead of a human with feelings, AND THEN had the audacity to put all the blame on mo ran and say "nah it was all him he had some dark thoughts, my hands are clean!"

And then when Chu Wanning gets in the way of his plans, he tells chu wanning "actually I should have killed you." You think THAT'S a better option for Chu Wanning then Mo Ran??

And even current timeline Shi Mei worked with Hua Binan to infect Mo Ran with the flower and keeps trying to manipulate his feelings so the flower keeps working. He might be a bit more genuine in his feelings but still???

And don't get me started on the Chu Wanning side of things. The most his feelings ever go for Shi Mei is "he's my disciple so I care about him" which is pretty much obligatory from teacher towards a student. He doesn't even come close to xue meng in terms of having chu wanning's affection, mo ran is completely incomparable. There's a reason why during most of the novel Mo Ran was only ever jealous of xue meng and never shi mei. It's because he never thought shi mei was competition in the first place lmao! (plus flower manipulation to always see shi mei in a good light).

And chu wanning is jealous of Shi Mei for like 2/3s of the novel! "oh why wasn't I as pretty as shi mei, I wish mo ran could love me, I wish I was more gentle so I could be mo ran's beloved instead of shi mei"

Hell, when chu wanning comes out of his 5 year seclusion shi mei gets all teary eyed and was like "this disciple missed shizun so much" chu wanning was literally like "this sucks, I lost to my competition, also where is mo ran??? this banquet is not complete without mo ran! :( " When he's not just trying to be a good teacher, he literally just thinks of Shi Mei as competition. (Albeit he thinks he has no chance of winning against his competition, but it's competition nonetheless).

He arises no feelings of love, desire, or even the barest minimum of attraction in chu wanning, he just sees shi mei as like some objectively beautiful person like how a flower looks nice, and all that makes him feel is jealousy.

And when Hua Binan tries to rape him, he feels horrified and disgusted. Like *completely* disgusted, he hates it so much. With Taxian-jun it was like "this arises desire in me, I desire him and I feel electric when he touches me, I want to be loved but not in this way, but in the depth of all this passion I can pretend that maybe he does love me back." With shi mei it's just like "nah fuck you get off of me!" and "where did I go wrong as a teacher??" and "he looks completely different from mo ran, mo ran is so hot and his body is so hot, shi mei is just not my type." chu wanning has only ever felt love and sexual desire for *one* person, and I think by now you can guess who it is (spoiler, it isn't shi mei).

Also he tells shi mei he wishes that he were dead. That he should have died at the heavenly rift. He tells him "forget about comparing yourself to mo ran, you can't even compare to xu shuanglin" He can't even compare to discount!mo ran from temu.

And near the end they both wish each other were dead and they battle to the death. Like genuinely, with no regrets, no reservations, they just wanted to kill each other.

"Chu Wanning deserves better" LMAOO he already got the best! And he KNOWS he got the best! He literally has a few paragraphs where he goes "Mo Ran is literally perfect, he is the best person in the whole world (189)" AND "Mo Ran is my everything, my entire world" (280), AND "Mo Ran is the most handsome and best person ever" (280). The stuff he says in 280 (and 279 too it also has some super romantic love affirmations from chu wanning towards mo ran) is all AFTER he gets all his memories back!

In conclusion: ranwan only love each other and ranwan love each other forever and ever. amen. I mean the end.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

Hearing Chu Wanning say "I love you" out loud hits so much you have no idea. The "good night Mo Ran" and the "there's fire, lights, and home" part is very sweet yes but to finally hear Chu Wanning say he loves Mo Ran?? The one thing I was waiting for while reading the novel?? I love Chu Wanning verbal love affirmations I need it injected into my veins.

And it's not even *just* 'I love you' it's "I'll always love you, I've always wanted to be with you, I've loved you in both lifetimes, I would marry you again, I would split my souls for you, I would surrender to you"

If Mo Ran wasn't physically dying he might've still died from that anyways even if he was perfectly healthy lmao.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

Before I finished 2ha I got spoiled on the "Two lifetimes, they belong to you. No regrets" quote (probably around when I was reading the end of book 2) and I was going crazy predicting whether mo ran or chu wanning would be the one to say it. I was hoping it would be chu wanning because idk if mo ran said it I feel like it wouldn't hit me as much.

And then I got spoiled for the line "I'll always be yours as well. No regrets." And I knew chu wanning said it so I was like 'oh I guess the context is that they are saying it to each other.' Little did I know chu wanning says BOTH LINES sjhgdjkflflfp best surprise ever.

(I think it hit me more that chu wanning says both lines because at the time I reallyyy anticipated hearing verbal affirmations of love from chu wanning towards mo ran. And I was waiting to see how the story would handle chu wanning’s feelings toward mo ran after he learns about his past life.)

[thegreymoon]

Do you think Shi Mei actually loved Chu Wanning? I was thinking about how when Shi Mei captured Chu Wanning at Mount Longxue, he kept on insisting that CWN forget MR and accept him. Although very different, TXJ too wanted CWN to want him back. Of course, these two feel vastly different (as MR had the flower) but the common factor is that in different ways, both want CWN to choose them which makes me wonder if Shi Mei ever loved Chu Wanning

I don't think that Shi Mei was capable of love, at least not of love towards individual people and certainly not outside of his own race, except maybe for his sister because she was so wholly devoted to his cause. There was simply too much damage there, he was too warped, but I do think there is nuance between 0.5 and 2.0 timelines.

Hua Binan certainly did not love Chu Wanning. He did want Chu Wanning to love him, he wanted all his attention and abilities focused on him and only him, which is inherently selfish and not loving at all. I think he sensed that being loved by Chu Wanning is very beneficial but he didn't understand what love is. Remember, Chu Wanning was his first intended victim for the flower. Where is the love in that? It is selfishness and cruelty, but it would give him the illusion of love, and Shi Mei certainly felt that this was exactly the same as true love, as long as he got to reap the benefits of having sex with him and of Chu Wanning's immense power working for his cause until the moment came when he would sacrifice him the same way he did with Mu Yanli. Everyone who was not a Butterfly Boned Beauty Feast was expandable to him, and even his own people sometimes were too, as we see with Song Qiutong (and Mo Ran, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt there because he didn't actually know). He saw Mo Ran being given everything by Chu Wanning even though he was the absolute worst version of himself, and he wanted that for himself too, but only because it would have given him pleasure and benefits. We saw that he never actually understood the dynamics of real love because, on Mount Longxue, he seemed to think that he and Mo Ran were interchangeable. He felt like Mo Ran had had his turn, they were both disciples, so why couldn't Chu Wanning now sleep with him too, and direct all his energy to his cause? After all, Mo Ran was Taxian-jun, and Chu Wanning was still willing and still ripped space and time for him. In his mind, he saw no difference. He died and he never understood love.

Shi Mei from the second timeline started out pretty much the same, but the horror his other self had wrought snapped something in him and he was able to access some real emotions, including love and respect for Chu Wanning. We can tell, because his final actions there were selfless. He understood he would never be forgiven and that he had nothing to gain but he still released Chu Wanning because you do not inflict unending horrors on someone whom you love and respect and who had been nothing but good to you. IMO, this is still too little too late and while people can head-canon whatever they want, I find the idea of him being forgiven by anyone on Sisheng Peak downright insulting. The only thing Shi Mei is entitled to with this final act of selflessness is a chance to embark on a journey of repentance, far away from his victims, and maybe save his soul from eternal damnation.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

I completely agree with this and I just feel like adding on with this book passage from Ch. 302

"If I were to start over....I'd definitely kill you." Lmao so much for your "love" Hua Binan.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

about Mo Ran's age

personally I don't really agree with the fact that Mo Ran is actually 32 (mentally) at the start of the novel. I've seen some people say that he is, because he died at 32 and was transmigrated into his new life, but I think mentally he's still 15 years old. That's because I think his growth and development stopped around the time he got affected by the flower. Even as a 32 year old in his previous life, it's very clear he was still behaving like a 15 year old with heavy outside influences affecting him (as seen by his unhinged lack of emotional regulation, immaturity, and lack of self-control). Furthermore, he was drowning in hate, stayed inside all day to study Zhenlong chess formation, and then took over the world and spent the rest of his time in Wushan Palace. He never got a chance to properly grow up; that's still a 15 year old (mentally) in a 32 year old man's body.

We can even see during book 1, that Mo Ran 1.0 clearly does not have the mind of a 32 year old. He's immature and has to redevelop his sense of empathy (both as a teenage thing and also due to the flower). He has gaps in his memories, logic, and reasoning, and he clearly behaves like a teenager, especially when you observe his dynamic with Chu Wanning.

The point I am trying to make is: let transmigrated Mo Ran be 15, because he's not an adult and deserves a second chance at his childhood. Only once he goes through puberty (the 5 year gap that Chu Wanning was gone) was he able to mature and grow up, and develop mentally into the adult he is at the end of the novel.

TLDR; in his second life his mental age completely matches his physical age. he's a 15 year old.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

at the end of the day after everything has happened in 2ha the one thing that you cannot take away from mo ran is that he's gorgeous. insanely good looking. according to meatbun the legit most handsome man in the world. he knows it, chu wanning knows it, hua binan knows it.

even when he's a starving child, even when he's covered in dirt and shit, even when he's a dumb teenager, even when he's about to get executed. man's face card has never declined in his life.

it makes me laugh so much that when hua binan is asking chu wanning why he likes mo ran he's like "why, just because he's got a good face?" and I was sitting there giggling like lmao even if you hate him you still have to acknowledge that he's good looking. god bless.

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

chu wanning describing mo ran as a beautiful merman

no thoughts head empty just that chu wanning thinks mo ran looks like a merman

[h0rsegirlpercy]

Percy age 12: And if the mission required someone to push me down a flight of stairs for it to succeed… you’d want someone who won’t hesitate when they do it

Percy age 17:

[whatever-i-hyperfixate-on]

it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that chu wanning's "pride" isn't him trying to uphold his image as the number one most untouchable, best cultivator in the world - but instead it is a shield he has built up over his lifetime to mask his fear of rejection and his hopeless desire to be loved when he thinks no one loves him.

“pride” aka my mask that I show on the outside to tell the world "I can handle myself" because it's too embarrassing and shameful to show you that actually I am lonely and want you to care about me