Back Through The Green Door

Quen | They/Them/Theirs | 25 | white, USAmerican, bisexual, aromantic, nonbinary-questioning

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

Golden Rule:

Hulk comics I have read for myself:

The Immortal Hulk

Planet Hulk

World War Hulk

Gamma Flight

Hulk: Gray

Hulk comics I may read some day:

Peter David's run

The "Dogs Of War" arc

Adaptations I enjoy:

The Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction - it's a fun video game that doesn't take itself too seriously, but very effectively portrays the power of the Hulk. That said, having read some rather good comics that explore the dramatic potential to the character, I don't think the story measures up.

Link to my fanfiction masterlist.

[milkumsumsums]

Xenmu's fucking hilarious btw

[milkumsumsums]

This direction for Red She-Hulk is honestly one of my favorite parts of Immortal Hulk.

Bruce keeps acting as though he's speaking in her best interests, but he can't look at her and not have his own self loathing rebound back at him - but as a result (and honestly in part bc he's kind of an egotistical jackass), he denies her interiority. She allows the "discomforting" parts of herself to be free, an act taken after Banner runs to her for comfort to begin with (and in the process gets her Fucking Killed as a result, even if by accident), and he can barely stomach the sight of her anymore.

So he asks to see "the woman he loves" and of course she rejects him. This IS the woman she loves, she's just the one on the other side of the mirror. The one you don't wanna see.

[milkumsumsums]

The Fantastic Four and by extention cosmic radiation as like. The ontological opposite of Hulk and gamma radiation is cool as shit wait. The adored and the reviled. The loving family and the broken home. The fantastical and the monstrous, the other side of the mirror, the same but DIFFERENT, I FW IT

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

Some contrasting 🔞 headcanons regarding Joe Fixit and the Green Scar.

Disclaimer that I haven't read anything from Peter David's run, so this is really only applicable to a post-Immortal Joe. I have read Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, but nothing else featuring the Green Scar.

I think both of them would be hesitant to hop into bed with a new partner. The Green Scar's heart still belongs to Caiera, while Joe's still in love with Betty, even if she doesn't really feel the same, and he's trying to prove to her and to himself that he doesn't want to be selfish anymore.

I think Joe would be easier to convince, though, if he accepted that he and Betty aren't good for each other, and that it's best to close the book on that part of his life. The Green Scar would be very cold to any open flirting, his partner would need to be someone he really trusts - not like how you trust a friend with your feelings, more like how you trust an ally to have your back on the battlefield. In fact, he'd make a point to keep any deeper feelings out of it. Minimal talking, no kissing, not even eye contact, just two allies getting each other off.

Joe, however, would love eye contact. He likes using his head, figuring out what his partner likes, and seeing the look on their face when he hits the right spot. That's not to say the Green Scar wouldn't reciprocate, though, he just wouldn't want his partner to be silent and leave him to figure them out like a puzzle. He intends to get his partner off, with no fuss or pretense, just like he'd want them to do for him.

If his prospective partner had a penis, I think Joe would have some reservations, but he would get over them. He's expressed sympathy for LGBT+ acceptance before, and he may be willing to explore new facets of his own sexuality.

For the Green Scar... If his partner wasn't a woman, perhaps he'd actually have an easier time convincing himself to get into bed with them. On some level, sleeping with another woman might feel like a betrayal of Caiera's memory, but sleeping with someone of another gender might not 'count' in his eyes. It's a flawed perspective, but one I could see him at least considering.

In terms of partners, I think both of them appreciate someone who can match them in power, if not necessarily physical strength. Caiera was a formidable warrior who could legitimately make the Green Scar work for a victory, and Joe appreciated Betty in her Harpy form when Bruce didn't. However, while the Green Scar's tastes would be limited mainly to his fellow monsters, Joe appreciates puny humans too, he likes it when his partners can make him feel big and strong.

Although, holding himself back for a non-superpowered partner could be difficult for Joe, since his new Cosmic-powered form is a lot stronger than his gray one was. This is especially evident at climax - Joe would love finishing on his partner's face, which is dangerous when his cumshots now feel like a slap in the face instead of just a firm pat. The Green Scar, however, would prefer partners who can take a little punishment, and I think he'd prefer them facing away. I'm not sure he'd finish inside his partner - he presumably did so for Caiera, but that might be all the more reason not to give someone else the honor. Instead, he'd likely finish on his partner's back.

Naturally, the Green Scar would not want to cuddle after, he'd want to go somewhere else as soon as possible to maintain some distance. However, if aftercare were necessary, the Green Scar wouldn't forgo it, even if it feels awkward.

On the other hand, I think Joe would want to show his partner some appreciation, he doesn't want to be the kind of guy who nails and bails anymore. He'd provide aftercare, cuddle, if he really liked the person he spent the night with he might stay until morning and try to fix breakfast - I don't know if Joe cooks, but after Immortal I could see him wanting to pick it up.

[silverquickie]

this is the picture i mean when i say sensitive emo hulk btw

[fakelawyerbug]

I've seen a bunch of "fandom etiquette" posts on my dash today and I'm going to say something that is maybe going to be unpopular but;

The absolutely pervasive mentality that unwanted criticism or critique shouldn't be given and should be ignored is why fans of color don't stay in fan spaces.

And I am not going to mince words here:

A lot of you are racist. A lot of your fan works are racist.

That might have been difficult to hear. And if it was, you should probably reflect on why that was.

"Fandom etiquette" has created a space where fans of color either bite our tongues and eventually leave or say something, get dogged on, and then eventually leave.

So much of "fandom etiquette" seems to be about insulating creatives from Feeling Bad and hostility to any kind of negative feedback is a pretty big contributor to why bigotry festers in these spaces.

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

So, I'm not a big X-Men fan. And I do, on some level, agree with one common criticism of the "superpowers as an allegory for marginalized people" trope: that superpowers are legitimately scary and dangerous, which leads to fear and hatred for the oppressed being portrayed as rational and even justified.

However, I do think there's a response to this criticism that might work.

Humans tolerate a lot of danger already.

I'll let Devil Hulk open the argument:

Humans have technology. We have weapons, ranging from assault rifles that many in the United States feel should be accessible to the average citizen, to bombs that can level entire cities in an instant. Some humans willingly consume toxic substances just to alter their moods. Hell, the average citizen is expected to operate a fossil-fueled, few-thousand pound death machine just to navigate their community. Shootings, substance abuse, and car wrecks are just facts of life, and many people support the development and even use of nuclear weapons as a deterrence against their nation's adversaries.

To be fair, aside from physical destruction, you could point to telepaths, beings who can read and even alter thoughts, a power with no real technological counterpart. Though I will say, if privacy was your concern, I'd point to the fact that many humans use technological devices and accept that they're used to collect data from them - many humans have conceded a lot of their privacy to reap the benefits of technology.

Now, all of that's in the real world - human science in the Marvel Universe is much farther along, and has produced weapons and warriors that rival the powers of mutants.

And back to telepathy, I believe there is technology that can counter telepathy in the Marvel universe, Magneto's helmet is a popular example. Maybe the humans should start asking those with all the money and power why they're so preoccupied with building giant killer robots, when they could be developing practical defenses against mutant powers and making them available to the public, which could allow mutants to actually integrate into society instead of facing exclusion and extermination.

This ties into another popular criticism of the X-Men in concept, that they share a setting with other superheroes, who provoke a very different reaction than mutants do. But that's just it. Mutants aren't hated because their powers are dangerous, we've established that danger can come from many places, but because of where that danger comes from.

Let's look at our other 'heroes'. We have super soldiers like Captain America, who was granted his powers by the U.S. government to be used to fight a war. We have geniuses like Iron Man, who used his own knowledge and wealth to develop incredibly powerful weapons, now for his personal use rather than for sale. We have literal gods like Thor, whose power is associated with human religion and morality. We have everymen like Spider-Man, who were just in the right place at the right time to get their powers.

Unlike mutants, there's a connotation of legitimacy with these origins. Steve Rogers and Tony Stark earned their powers through loyalty to his country and through wealth and genius respectively. Thor, being a god, has divine authority on his side. It makes sense that Spider-Man is in a weird grey area, beloved by some and hated from others, even frequently mistaken for a mutant himself. His powers were granted by sheer luck, after all, but even then they're still a product of science, human intervention, rather than nature.

Mutants aren't hated because they're dangerous. Lots of things, real and make-believe, are dangerous, and that danger is overlooked or forgiven due to the benefits they provide. Mutants are hated because they aren't normalized, because they don't have a place in the status quo. It's not an issue of logic or rationality, but an issue of perception. A perception very beneficial to those who rely on anti-mutant panic to earn votes or sell giant killer robots.

To turn back to the real world for one final note - in my day job, I work with people who have intellectual disabilities. This doesn't make me an expert or an advocate, at the end of the day, it's just my job.

But I have worked with clients who've displayed assaultive behavior. I've been slapped, scratched, and even bitten on the job. Some would label these clients as "dangerous". Many would feel afraid of them. Some, if emboldened enough, might even advocate for their exclusion. And their behavior does affect the way we serve them. For example, if a client is known to lash out at those who enter their personal space, we'd give them some distance we wouldn't necessarily give another client. But that doesn't mean we don't serve them, and it doesn't mean they don't have a place in the community.

Everyone, however they're born, has the capacity to be dangerous, but they're still human beings who have rights. To paraphrase one of the X-Men movies, we may require a license to drive a car or own a gun - but we don't require a license to license to live.

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

I think the reason so many people struggle to imagine what a good Superman game would look like is because they're caught in the assumption that "superhero game" equals "action game where the goal is to defeat enemies while avoiding being defeated yourself", and such a game would not be the best fit for a character who's known to be invincible save for a handful of very specific weaknesses.

But not all video games are designed like that, and I'm going to be bold and point to the Tony Hawk franchise as a place to take inspiration from.

There are no enemies in a Tony Hawk game, in fact your skater can't die at all, falling off of your board is a very brief setback. But even though bailing isn't a game over, the player is still inclined to avoid it because it wastes time, and impacts their score.

The object in a Tony Hawk is to complete a list of objectives within a time limit, and that lines up with what Superman usually does: responding to a crisis, and trying to save as many people as he can as quickly as he can.

The game can feature levels set in parts of Metropolis, Smallville, perhaps the bottle city of Kandor, etc. And they can portray a wide variety of supervillain attacks, chases, accidents, natural disasters, etc. Each level is full of citizens in precarious positions, each of which require some combination of Superman's various powers to rescue them, and the player can tackle them in any order. To get the best possible score, the player has to master Superman's mechanics and figure out the most efficient route to save as many lives as possible within the time limit.

Superman doesn't need to have a health bar for his weaknesses to be portrayed either. To use the most obvious example, perhaps kryptonite just weakens him for a moment, maybe causes him to slowly descend if he's flying, until he gets out of range. It won't kill him, but it is a setback that players going for a perfect score will want to avoid, by either negating the hazard from a distance or simply avoiding it.

Failing to save everyone isn't a game over, and you don't have to get a perfect score to clear a level. This means casual players can still have a complete experience of the game, but more committed players have room to learn and improve if they invest the time. And for a game to gain a wide audience, it's important to have both a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling.

If there are any combat encounters, I still don't think Superman would have an action game moveset or anything like that. I could see him having a basic punch (that can be combined with running and flying for more power), the ability to grab and throw things, and of course his heat vision and his super breath. The game Butthead: Arkham City features a stealth-focused boss fight with Mr. Freeze where he adapts to each of Butthead's offensive options, forcing the player to be creative, and I think that kind of game design would be a good fit for this game. When it comes to less powerful enemies, I feel like Superman wouldn't even want to punch them, I think the player would have some tools for subduing enemies instead (bending a steel bar to wrap around them is a classic).

If any one boss would have a health bar, it would be Doomsday, which just emphasizes him as a unique threat that forces Superman to use brute strength to actually kill his target.

I like the image of the score display screen having the esthetic of a newspaper page, like it's a Daily Planet article reporting on Superman's latest adventure.

Depending on time and budget, perhaps the game could include allies of Superman with similar powers to his own, with different stats and controls that add novelty to replays of familiar levels. Plus, this could also be an avenue to include co-op levels that test cooperation on top of the usual skills.

Besides the citizens in peril, I could also see the levels featuring collectibles. Like in the Tony Hawk series, this could include stat points that improve Superman's characteristics. It could also include alternate costumes, as I wouldn't want to lock too many of those behind high scoring gameplay - a more suitable reward for that might be additional difficulty modifiers, to further challenge the most skilled players.

Now, I can understand that a puzzle-ish game with discreet levels isn't what every fan wants, there are for sure many who dream of a game where you can fly around and open-world Metropolis as Superman. And I could imagine a "free flight" mode where you can explore an undivided Metropolis, or Smallville, or wherever, and seek collectibles without the pressure of a time limit. Perhaps random events can occur in free flight mode, usually involving a small number of citizens in peril, again with no time limit.

[misscammiedawn]

For character asks: Devil Hulk!

For our Core Lies meme (Bruce has already had an entry)

Devil Hulk (The Immortal Hulk)

So, there are two eras for Devil Hulk.

The Jenkins era in the early 2000s (and the Ultimate Devastation video game) and Ewing's Immortal Hulk.

For the most part I will talk about the Ewing version.

So, full disclosure to our Tumblr audience, Turq and I discussed this on Discord and the "I take that personal" catchphrase that appears on the above image.

Turq said that the first time it was used was after Shadow Base captured the system and did invasive tests on Devil. As he intentionally takes a life, murders with willful intent (as opposed to a consequence of a Hulk's rampage) is claimed to be because the victim in question hurt Banner and when you hurt Banner, he takes it real personal.

Now... we should probably note that Hulk taking life, accidentally or otherwise, is a contentious thing unto itself. It's brought up within Immortal and Devil casually accepts Amadeus Cho's theory that the system calculate potential damage to steer any active Hulk from killing people. It's convenient for protecting Bruce and so he doesn't dispute it.

Devil's motivation in Jenkin's run is to force Bruce into the mindscape where he could live in a happy fantasy, free from the horrors of reality. In Ewing's run it is to "destroy the status quo" because the world as it is under capitalism is something that hurts Bruce and he wants to lash out at anything that hurts Bruce.

Now... the hard thing to note is that Devil is outwardly dishonest. I think Devil is just doing whatever he can to protect the whole system after their successful assisted suicide in Civil War 2. Devil woke up because Bruce killed himself. He was beyond despair and Devil is doing anything he can to repair them all.

It's clear by the end that his plan was always to pass the reigns of protection on to Joe.

I think that Devil internalizes a lot of the building blocks that make him what he is and he embodies them to push the system forward but never envisioned a future with him in it.

Not to post The Page again but...

I believe Devil's core lie is that he is built off of the building blocks of Brian Banner. Bruce cannot imagine love with pain, he fears the anger that exists within him.

He knows that he can never be the father that Bruce needs. He can't protect him forever. He's just doing what he can because the system needs him.

I believe he's internalized some of that.

That he is the monster Bruce sees him as, so he acts it. That Bruce is afraid of him, so he keeps him at arms reach.

My belief is a sad one. "Bruce will be better off without me."

He's just there until Joe can take his place.

For an alter who was released from imprisonment because the system committed suicide, Devil has no attachment to living for himself.

I think that Devil actually has a lot of personal drive and impulse of his own. But he supresses it or rationalizes it to be about helping Bruce. Because he keeps telling himself that he has to go away when they're safe. That "safe" is a world that doesn't have him in it.

Which is kind of sad.

...speaking of Joe. I have another ask in my box...

---

For other core lie asks:

Daine (Tamora Pierce's Tortall series) and Susan (Terry Pratchett's Discworld series) Bruce Banner (Hulk) and Jesse Faden (Control) Elliot Alderson (Mr. Robot) Evangeline Morgan (Of the Devil) Juri Arisugawa (Revolutionary Girl Utena) Master Aqua (Kingdom Hearts) Briar Moss and Trisana Chandler (The Circle of Magic) Rei Ayanami (Neon Genesis Evangelion)

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

Even though "Set Me Free" by Velvet Revolver is associated with the Hulk film from 2003, the lyrics make me think of The Immortal Hulk. Let me break down my thoughts:

You operate and motivate on synthetic fuel

This one might be a reach, but Bruce's "synthetic fuel" may be his telling himself that he can use the Hulk to change the world for the better.

In his conversation with Amadeus, Bruce admits that he doesn't believe in heroes, that he doesn't see *himself* as a hero, that *he* can't build a better world. His plan is to aim the Hulk at those who are slowly burning the world down for profit, and let the task of building something better "fall to other people" in his words. It's worth wondering if Bruce really believes the new world will be better the one he's setting out to end. If he doesn't have what it takes to build that world, then who does?

Perhaps he really does believe in what he's doing, I'm not ruling that out by any means. But at the same time, I think on some level he wants a sense of belonging and purpose. If he can't be a hero, maybe he can find some meaning in being a Hulk.

You're mother nature and an atom bomb

This makes me think of the dual nature of the Hulk. Bruce Banner is a man, and a monster. Sometimes a savior, sometimes a destroyer. The Devil Hulk wants to end the world in order to save humanity. Gamma radiation is both science and magic. The ones above and below creation are two faces of the same entity.

The reference to "mother nature" could also tie into Devil Hulk fighting the forces causing climate change.

As long as you're kept full of pretty bodies Your little secret will be safe with me

This line I'm admittedly unsure about.

The first thing it made me think of was actually Dr. Frye, creating many dead bodies both directly and through his son Del, all because he wanted to keep his own wrongdoing secret. But the rest of my thoughts on this song are about Bruce Banner and the One Below All, not Dr. Frye. Perhaps Dr. Frye's actions could be seen as a reflection of the human world that Bruce wants to end, allowing many to suffer and die because those with power are unwilling to confront the source of the problem?

Or maybe it's a reference to Bruce containing multitudes, being plural, being the ideal vessel of the One Below All (and Devil Hulk reforming around Dr. Clive that one time)?

The term "pretty bodies" also makes me think of the One Below All using the forms of others, like Rick Jones, Thaddeus Ross, Jackie's dad, but those forms being hollow shells of the people they represent.

Around again, insane again It comes again and sets me free

A reference to the cyclical nature of the Hulk's story, and the stories of comic book heroes' stories in general, always snapping back to their status quo. Though, admittedly, that sounds like quite the opposite of being set free, at least in the long term.

So set me free, set me free 'Cause I think you need my soul Set me free, set me free

This line especially makes me think of The Immortal Hulk, specifically those possessed by the One Below All, who needs to wear the souls of others as masks, as it does to Brian Banner, Samuel Sterns, and Bruce Banner/the Hulk in the far future.

Though the one being set free isn't Bruce Banner, but the Hulks, who were always a part of Bruce, but given new power and influence by the Gamma bomb that also opened the Green Door. In a way, Bruce set his own alters free and set the One Below All free with the same act.

You're kept alive and polarized with one thing in mind Metabolize everything that you see

Another reference to the One Below All, this time it's desire to destroy everything and leave itself as the lone presence in the cosmos, a desire reflected in the Hulk's tendency to rampage against those who won't be left alone.

This could also be taken as a reference to the human world, consuming resources with little regard for sustainability.

But now and then or a little later Now I'm gonna take you down with me

This makes me think of the future where the One Below All possesses Bruce, and how it's framed as inevitable, not even undone by Farys's tiding fly.

Alternatively, this could also be in reference to Bruce resolving to tear down the human world, even if it means burning bridges with the superhero community and being branded as a terrorist.

So take me down Take me, down, down, down, down Take me down, take me down

The Immortal Hulk constantly makes use of "the Below-Place", "the One Below All", "as above, so below". Could also be taken as a reference to Bruce Banner's death wish.

[otterlogic]

Imagine… REVERSE HULK

[milkumsumsums]

ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING ANGLE. If Hulk is destruction and anger, and also a being that exists in everyone up to and including God ("we've all always been here.") then some people are demonised for their Hulks while others get too many chances. And so yes, of course Jackie wants to be like Hulk, bc his anger is righteous and excused and covered up, while Jackie's (a black woman specifically) anger is something to be afraid of, dismissed or punished. Everyone gets a Hulk, but some people get to indulge in it! And if you aren't allowed, you're now A Problem.

This also makes She-Hulks response to him implicating they're similar now particularly interesting: She-Hulk (until relatively events that I'm not privvy to made her more Hulky) has always been one of the more "palpable" Hulks; toned and tall but not monstrous, confident and unshakable and stable, not at all the image of a Hulk, and the idea of embodying that scares the shit outta her, bc it's potentially the loss of what gives her widespread acceptance.

[combrod]

There’s an endorsement career in his future.

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

Gamma Flight story where Carl and Charlene get cornered by a giant Gamma-mutated mouse, seeking revenge for the time it got disintegrated for science.

[aint-he-unglamor-rays]

Picture Thaddeus Ross, but instead of turning into a big red guy he gets really short and starts selling insurance with Shaquille O'Neil.

[allypupp]

Betty and Harpy ❤️ I want to pet her fluff very badly….

.♡