I think people haven't explored the idea of an "everyone lives" universe that doesn't really ignore stuff like Amane's illness enough
I know we don't get much of a descriptor of what exactly he had, but we know some facts: he was born with it, the symptoms point towards the issue being in his heart and, at the time, there was no treatment. Key words are "at the time"
Obligatory disclaimer to take all my info with a grain of salt bc, in the end of the day, I'm just some uneducated 20-something yo with too much free time and access to Google, BUT I feel pretty safe saying Amane had some kind of CHD (congenital heart disease). Back in the 50's, when Amane was born, the survival rates for kids born with CHD were very low. Heart surgery was a pretty new thing, still being experimented on, and not available for someone as young as he was. In the late 60's/early 70's a series of medical advancements made operations on young kids far more reliable and the number of early deaths began to decrease dramatically, which is pretty sad from the perspective of Amane's story. If he was born only a decade or so later, he probably could have gotten the treatment he needed. If Amane wasn't dying, Tsukasa would have never had to make a wish. Without Tsukasa's wish, they could have been happy
So if we put Amane in a setting where he is born at the same time as Yashiro, him surviving long enough to meet her and the rest of the cast should be very much possible, but surviving doesn't mean that he has no issues. A bit of research lead me to many posts from people with CHD talking about issues they had growing up, from physical pains and limitations to how people around them reacted to it, and there lies the plot potentials:
How do the Yugis as a whole deal with the situation? Do the parents explain things to the kids about what exactly is wrong with Amane or kinda leave them in the dark about the specifics in a misguided attempt to save them from worry? Are they kinda overprotective over Amane as leftover fear from the scare they got from when he was a baby? If yes, how much does it bother Amane to be coddled even as a teen? What if he tries to rebel by doing stuff they tell him not to but goes too far and actually ends up hurt from it? He canonically loves PE, so a scenario where he isn't allowed to take as much part in it as he desires is interesting to me. An "even alive he's still stuck and unable to do it all" sort of thing, a world that is better but not quite picture perfect
Focusing on Tsukasa for a moment, how does he respond to the situation? Does he act completely carefree as if it is a non issue or does he kinda worry more openly about his brother? If he saw Amane running around more than he should would he not care, try to stop him or go "ooooh im gonna tell mom and you're gonna get in trouble!"? This being a world where he didnt effectively sell his soul to the devil/get trapped in red house limbo for 50+ years it's safe to say he would be a less unhinged version of himself, but I mean, it's still him. There's plenty of room for open interpretation with how he'd actually behave
I imagine Amane kinda trying to hide the fact he has any sort of health issues at all from his friends when he first meets them, not wanting to be treated any differently, thing that would likely backfire in some way. How would Yashiro and Kou deal with a situation like that? Akane would probably know thanks to his status as class representative/vice in the student council, would Amane try to make him keep quiet about it? I can picture Akane scolding him and dragging him to the nurse's office if he ever pushed himself too hard
What if we throw Amane and Mei together and make them bound over shared medical issues? Maybe she could try and teach him to draw a little to pass time when he's forced to sit out of physical activities, he could ramble to her about whatever astronomy book he's reading. I think they'd be good friends
I could probably go on, but this is long enough as it is and I feel like I got the idea across, so I'll leave it here
Does anyone ever think about how it was like when Hanako first became a ghost?
How was it like for him to wake up in the school again and realize what had happened? Was he scared and freaking out outwardly or did he even then try to swallow it down? How was it like for Tsuchigomori to see this boy, his student, the one meant to grow up and become his coworker and friend suddenly dead? Did he default to trying to help him, or did he cope with the guilt of not having done more by becoming detached from the start, leaving Hanako to fend for himself? Do you think he went after the Clock Keepers to try to understand this inconsistency with time and it just lead nowhere? How long did it take for Hanako to stop refering to him as his teacher, and for him to stop calling Hanako by his real name?
Back to Hanako, I imagine getting used to not having to sleep must have been hard. Sure, he can sleep, but I'd imagine that after everything he went through, if he tried, he'd be only met with nightmares and since he doesn't have to sleep he can't ever come to a point where the exhaustion wins him over. So he'd try to look for something to do, but there are only so many times he can annoy the other mysteries until they get tired of him, so many games he can play with the mokke before it loses meaning. So he'd end up just having to sit there, alone with his thoughts, for hours, with only the moon watching over him. Would he take being able to stare at the night sky as a consolation or as just another layer of punishment, reminding him night after night of what he'll never have?
Also, what about Minamoto grandma? She's the one who sealed Hanako, what happened between them? Was it a one event thing or did they interact more? Did she treat him the way Teru does, with judgment and hatred, or was she more empathetic like Kou? Or secret third option? Did she want to seal him or did she feel like she had to? Did he fight back against it, or did he just accept it?
Anyway I think about this manga a healthy and normal amount-
Still in the middle of the quest but I was NOT expecting to hear Thelxie's lullaby when Durin was running through the void I swear to god I'm not going insane here listen
You dont understand the neuron activation these notes have on me I recognized it INSTANTLY
Durin and Fremi have so many connections with fairytales and their grief over their mothers and even the whole thing with the stars but I was not expecting they'd be bold enough to pull this on me
Hoyo for the love of god PLEASE let these two meet already I swear
I was rereading chapter 130 and found something odd
This may just be the translation being a bit wacky and not important at all, but since idk and I cant find anyone else commenting on it I figured I might as well
So, chapter 130 confirms that Yugi dad abandoned the family when things went south. By Amanes own words, he left and never came back
And this would be completely fine and understandable if it wasn't for the fact that one of the only few things we know for a fact about the day that everyone died is that there were 4 victims in the house
So we're left with a few possibilities here:
1 - Someone else entirely not only was there, but died that day with the rest of the family (I feel like its way too late to introduce a stepdad or something like that, but I guess it could be someone from the outside that got somehow caught in the middle of the chaos?)
2 - Something big enough happened for Yugi dad to return to the house on the day of the incident just to then die there with everyone (maybe they didn't die all in one go and he somehow knew something bad was happening in the house and came to check? Maybe he was called there and couldnt say no despite being so off contact?)
3 - The impact of whatever Kako and Mirai changed in the past goes beyond the whole thing with the time travel attempt to save Tsukasa and already made this Amanes life different from the one from the original timeline (which would make any information about the Yugi family we get here unreliable)
4 - the translation is a bit off and what Amane was meant to say is that the father just isn't present on his life anymore, not necessarily divorcing/not living there with them
I have to admit to lean more towards 4, maybe 2, but again, since I'm not entirely sure I'll leave it to you people on the internet to overthink it with me
Susie is, and was always meant to be, The Girl from Deltarune's prophecy
I've seen a lot of people who believe that "The Girl" was meant to be somebody else- particularly, Noelle. To be blunt, this is false, and I'm tired of seeing this interpretation pop up everywhere. I can understand how one could come to this conclusion initially- hell, I used to believe this theory- but when you look at all the evidence, it just doesn't line up whatsoever. So let's get into why.
First off, let's tackle the big one.
THE SECOND HERO.
THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
I'm gonna tackle this one argument at a time, so...
"The silohuette looks nothing like Susie!"
I mean... eh? I can see the point being made here, but... would you really say this looks more like Noelle?? The silohuette is vague in general, and hardly resembles either of them, to be honest - but if I had to pick one of them, the hair at the back reminds me more of Susie - it's much spikier, more reminiscent of Susie's hair than Noelle's.
Apparently some people think that the hair is angel wings? I can... kinda see it, but, like... let's take a look at another prophecy panel for a moment.
The hero on the left here looks very much like Susie. The silohuette evokes specifically her hairstyle- Noelle's hair just doesn't look like that whatsoever, there's clearly no wings in sight, and the silohuette also lacks antlers. And they can't be wearing a hood, like the White Mage does in MAN'T'LE - that's clearly hair.
Plus, Kris's silohuette is accurate to their appearance, and Ralsei's is accurate to how the prophecy typically depicts him, always with his cloak, so I don't see any reason for The Girl's silohuette to just... randomly be wrong here, if it's meant to be Noelle.
"The Girl is wielding a sword! Susie can't wield swords, but Noelle can!"
Alright then, let's see what swords Noelle can equip!
Jingle Blade - Light World: Holiday Pencil
Black Shard - Light World: Black Shard
So, we have... literally her pencil, which isn't exactly strong evidence, and... the Black Shard. Now, let's look at the description for the Black Shard real quick...
"dagger-like", huh? That doesn't sound much like a sword to me... plus, it's also... not that big. Or sword-shaped. It's... kinda just shaped like a piece of glass. Now, where did we get the Black Shard again?
The Roaring Knight, who- regardless of which of the two candidates you're rooting for- is 100% a Holiday. With this in mind, along with the Black Shard's description, I think you can understand why I don't think The Girl wielding a sword is very strong evidence towards The Girl being Noelle.
But the silohuette still wields a sword, not an axe, which is quite interesting... but I think people are looking at it from the wrong angle here. Let's think about this a different way; Here, take some dialogue from Gerson's fight.
This comment about the "white pen, known as hope" intrigues me, because... well, as Susie says herself, Kris has the pen, and... hm. What do Kris's weapons become in the Light World, again? Let's go through one by one.
Pencil -> Wood Blade
Halloween Pencil -> Spooky Sword
Lucky Pencil -> Trefoil (UNUSED)
Eraser -> Bounce Blade
Mechanical Pencil -> Mecha Saber
Cactus Needle -> Saber 10
Quill Pen -> Winglade
Holiday Pencil -> Jingle Blade
Black Shard -> Black Shard
Even if you don't count the Trefoil, there's clearly a pattern here - most of Kris's weapons, which are all swords, are writing equipment - with the majority just being pens and pencils outright! Now, this is purely speculative...
But it would be really fucking cool and thematically appropriate if Susie got her hands on some sort of pen at some point, and then in the Dark World, it turns into a sword only she can equip, right??? Like- that'd be really fucking cool!! And also extremely appropriate & relevant to the game's themes!!!
But, admittedly, that is just speculation. You don't need to take my word for it - but I do think that using the fact that The Girl wields a sword as evidence that it's meant to be depicting Noelle is... a very shaky argument.
"The Girl is mentioned as both the second, and then as the last! That means there's two The Girls!"
Putting aside how needlessly obtuse the idea of there being two "The Girls" is- two people referred to by the exact same identifier... I don't have a not-incredibly-blunt way to put this-
It's a POEM.
Like- let's take a look at these prophecies, in the order they appear in-game.
THE THIRD HERO, THE PRINCE, ALONE IN DEEPEST DARK.
THE FIRST HERO, THE CAGE, WITH HUMAN SOUL AND PARTS!
AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL.
THE SECOND HERO, THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
It's a poem! And, considering the third panel, it looks like this poem follows the order they joined the party.
Ralsei first, since he uh. IDFK, had the prophecy beamed into his brain at birth or smth???
Then Kris, as we/them immediately join up with Ralsei when we first meet him.
And then Susie, who sort of joins our party twice - and the first time hardly even counts, considering that she refuses to listen to us and then joins the bad guys - she's by far the last to join the party, only truly working with us after her fight with Lancer in the prison.
They're "out of order" in the sense that it doesn't go 1-2-3, yes, but it's deliberate - maybe that's in part because of Susie's Dark World being topsy-turvy, but I don't think that means there's suddenly two "The Girls".
...and with that said, I feel the need to mention that the image for-
AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL.
-is literally just Rude Buster. Like- that's just Rude Buster. Sure, you could argue that it's also the act symbol, but the act symbol is never really referenced outside of the UI & characters talking about the UI, as far as I remember. Rude Buster, on the other hand...
...is literally used for the pattern on Susie's carpet. And you can't argue that this one is the act symbol, because... it's Susie's room. It's clearly meant to be Rude Buster...
Now- what does Noelle have to do with that symbol, if The Girl is meant to be her? Regardless of whether it's meant to be Rude Buster or the act icon, how does that relate to Noelle?? She has nothing to do with either of those things- hell, Susie even has a stronger relation to ACTing than Noelle does, what with her being the one to prompt S-Action & R-Action to exist. Now, to move onto my next point.
LOVE FINDS ITS WAY TO THE GIRL.
This prophecy! So- people think this might be referring to the Weird Route, and how "LOVE" - that is, Level Of ViolencE - will "find its way" to Noelle... but, like.
The weird route is explictly anti-prophecy.
Ralsei freaks out a bit when the ferris wheel scene doesn't happen, he literally tells you he thinks taking Noelle to the festival is "a bad decision" specifically on the weird route, and...
I think this dialogue speaks for itself. Though, some context: This dialogue is spoken by Ralsei if you tell him it's okay to not smile... specifically on the weird route. It's, like- the most blatant foreshadowing ever.
...also I don't know why everyone tries to make this panel about LOVE when that's not been a plot-point so far in Deltarune and the regular meaning of this panel would apply to Noelle on all routes anyway.
(Even weird route... in a much more unfortunate manner.)
THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
Now, I want to talk about this for a moment- the way the prophecy describes The Girl here: with hope crossed on her heart. Hope. Real quick, I'm gonna go through a bunch of mentions of "hope" in the game to prove a point - not every mention, but any that might be relevant.
I'll circle back to this one later, because I just realised something about this- just keep it in mind.
wow, it took way longer than i expected to find a thematically relevant example of "hope"...
So! This scene- it's a really big moment. We get a huge loredrop on Susie's backstory, and rather pointedly- she talks about hope, and it's the first time we get a really relevant mention of "hope" as a theme- and it's Susie who drops it. She talks about how Toriel gave her hope- and how that hope has been growing as she makes friends- and she says all this to Tenna, who's in a similar spot to the one she was in before...
...and it inspires hope in him, too. Her speech- her empathy & sympathy, and her offer to find him a new home- it gives him hope. Hope that he won't be thrown away- that he can find a new home, that he can be used and be happy again... and it's all thanks to Susie.
I've not really got much to say for this one, TBH- I think it just speaks for itself. IDK, words hard sometimes.
I brought this one up earlier, but I think it's relevant here, too- Gerson specifically believes Susie has the "white pen of hope"- the power to change fate, to change the ending and write her own- and he calls it hope. I think that's important.
I'm bringing up this Seam dialogue because, for most people, Susie- and her Rude Buster- is the only reason you could even touch the Roaring Knight. It's thanks to her that you could get that crystal - without her, you'd be shit outta luck.
(That is, unless you're extraordinarily cracked at the game, but I'm not considering that edge case...)
So, you could say, indirectly, Susie's inspired hope in Seam, too.
I saved this one for last on purpose, because I think it's the most poignant.
Ralsei directly talks about how Susie's hope is "infectious"- her bright, shining hope, it's spreading, it's giving Ralsei hope, too. Hope that the ending can be changed- that the final tragedy can be averted, despite everything- despite the fact that the prophecy has yet to change. I've got something to say regarding that, actually- but I wanna finish this train of thought first.
So, Susie has a very clear connection to hope- even in Chapter 3, before the prophecy is in the picture, she establishes herself as a person full of hope- a person that inspires hope in others. Now, what connection does Noelle have with hope? What are her thematic ties to the idea and feeling of hope?
...
She, uh. She doesn't really... have any. Like- she mentions hope... once??
Like- Alphys and Hathy have more text connecting them to hope (or, the word hope) than this. Noelle really just- doesn't have any narrative association with hope like Susie does, which I think is a big point against Noelle being The Girl, considering that "with hope crossed on her heart" is the way the prophecy defines The Girl.
Now- to circle back to that text from the legend real quick, I had a thought about that! So- it says it's a legend of hope and dreams. Light and dark. Hope and light on the left, dark and dreams on the right. This is a complete tangent and probably doesn't mean much, but- dark worlds are already associated with dreams, and what with Susie's connection with hope, and how she's a lightner... I dunno. I just think it's neat that it lines up like that, Gyaa Ha ha!
THE PROPHECY HAS NOT CHANGED YET
Alright so I really need to address this point- the prophecy has not changed. Ralsei makes a point of this multiple times during Chapter 4, and even the shadow crystals support this idea.
Now, assuming Noelle was meant to be The Girl, and that Susie took her spot... I don't think Ralsei's mindset here makes much sense. After all, that would mean that the prophecy was already changed- and in quite a significant way, too. Like- one of the three heroes just being replaced?! That's huge! Ralsei would totally freak out about that the moment he saw us in Castle Town for the first time if it was true!
Some people try to argue that Ralsei just- wouldn't know that Susie isn't meant to be The Girl, but I don't think that's right. Ralsei knows the prophecy in full- every last detail- and he knows Susie by name when he first sees her.
I think that's quite relevant- he recognises her appearance, calls her by name before she introduces herself, and is confident that she's one of the three heroes. Not once is he like "uh- okay then i guess i'll go with this-" or anything like that- and he has not once expressed that this is wrong.
Also- frankly, the idea that the prophecy has already changed is a weak idea that wouldn't serve the story well. On first glance, yeah- cool, Susie broke it by being Susie from the get-go, cool, go Susie! But when you look at it more deeply, it's... kinda just a weak plot point?
This overbearing force,
This prophecy which forces the hand of fate,
This antagonistic force that's being built up to be broken at the end of the game...
yeah susie already broke/bent it in hour 1 lmao, its actually entirely worthless
Like. It just... doesn't really serve the story very well. At all. If Susie wasn't meant to be The Girl. Susie hypes up the prophecy because she's in it- it seems cool! She's finally- part of something, and it's something massive- she's a HERO! And then, as she learns more, she loses faith in the prophecy, even despite that- she calls it stupid. She forsakes it, and swears to defy it.
I think that arc would kinda be ruined a bit if it turned out that she wasn't meant to be part of the prophecy in the first place.
Additionally- I'd like to provide a quote from @ liz_x51 on Discord about this, she put it really well:
The idea of "we need to change the prophecy but it has never been done. We don't even know if it's possible" is kind of undermined if it either has a lot of ways to interpret it already (that's already a form of 'change') or if it's already changed from the beginning of the game by Susie being a hero
NOELLE & SUSIE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE
While trying to think of any more Girlelle points to debunk, I realised another reason why The Girl can't have been intended to be anyone other than Susie- and especially why it can't have been Noelle:
Are you really trying to tell me that swapping Noelle out for Susie wouldn't immediately change fate?
Those two are nothing alike- there is no way in hell they'd make the same choices, that they'd follow the prophecy all the same- especially with how specific the prophecy is!
Like- yes, these are all jokes- but they're also examples of how specific the prophecy is, and I don't believe these are meant to be random, throw-away exceptions- I think they are specifically meant to show us how specific the prophecy is- how it captures every event.
And, with that in mind... are you really telling me Chapter 1 would play out exactly the same if you swapped Susie for Noelle? Really?? The chapter would diverge in the first 10 minutes of the dark world! Like- I think this is something nobody really thinks about when talking about this theory- there is no way the plot would happen the exact same with Noelle in place of Susie. That just wouldn't happen.
"Ralsei says Susie is supposed to equip ribbons, so he isn't really very reliable."
...and Susie can equip ribbons. She just doesn't, because she doesn't want to. I think "supposed to" is just a case of weird phrasing from Ralsei.
While I'm on this topic- there's some dialogue I think is relevant.
Susie asks about Noelle, and Ralsei's first thought- which takes him a moment, mind you, considering the "Umm..." - is what items she can equip. I think that's quite a striking indicator that she's not very relevant to the prophecy - at least, not in a way Ralsei could identify her with. (There's still hope for y'all, Angel Noelle truthers.)
If Noelle was meant to be The Girl, this would be the perfect moment for Ralsei to mention that, no? This is right after he said he'd be more honest with the party- that he'd stop hiding so many things from them- and he is being explicitly asked about Noelle. This would be THE perfect moment for that loredrop!
But it doesn't happen, and I think that says enough.
This is where I'd put my closing thoughts... if I, uh. Had any. But, uh, I got nothin'. There's one The Girl, and her name is Susie [Lastname], not Noelle Holiday or any other name. If I forgot to debunk any points about Girlelle, I'll edit the post with those, I guess. But. Yeah. That's it. That's the post. go home
I really don't know how to convey exactly what I feel about this into words but something about this scene really caught my eye so I'll try, this will probably be rambly, bear with me (or just scroll past this post its fine I'll likely delete this anyway)
I've seen people talking about how Kris chose to hug Ralsei in this scene by themselves, but I'd say its more than just that, because if you pay attention to their arm you notice that Kris isn't really hugging him. Looking at the split sprite, they seem to just have a hand on his shoulder
Throughout the game Kris can hug Ralsei multiple times. Theoretically if you really want you can hug him dozens of times in the tutorial alone and then I think at least twice more throughout the game, but that's the thing, it isn't Kris doing that, that's the player. Kris had zero input on the matter. If we are to take Asgore's words as fact (and also pay mind to how they don't really hug back when Toriel hugs them), Kris doesn't even really like hugs that much to begin with, so it leaves the question: If Kris was in control, would they really have done that? And then this scene comes in
Something about Kris trying to show care and give comfort in their own way, one that is different from the silly things the player might have made them do earlier on, something "smaller" and maybe a little awkward but really true and I wonder if Ralsei noticed. If he could tell that was really them or that something about this was different. If it stood out to him the same way seeing Kris play the organ did both to him and Susie. Something about Kris real self still managing to slip through the cracks in these small, brief moments and those moments sticking with their friends, becoming the most memorable and important ones rather than anything the player makes them do. About them loving Kris for the glimpses they get of who they really are, and what realizing that may make Kris feel later on
I don't have a real conclusion to this just. Fun Gang is driving me insane I love them
I read the new chapter a few hours ago and I'm going a little insane about this and didnt see anyone else talking about it so here
Tartah cant lie anymore. It took me a while after reading the chapter for my brain to connect the dots with something I found while looking through the wiki a few days ago
I scrolled through the authors twitter to find when this was made. Its from July 2020. 5 years ago. Shirahama please pay for the therapy sessions this manga will make me have /j
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