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does collecting honey really hurt the bees? i see stuff saying it does and other stuff saying it doesnt idk what to believe .___.

This post goes into some good detail about honey, and why it’s wrong to take the food that bees create from them. It’s also more than just “does it hurt the bees-” consider that we have no right to take their honey! Even though we can replace it with other food, we don’t need honey, and they don’t need us to take it from them!

-Admin Samantha

thewannabeee

I understand some of the points this post makes, but I think there are some other factors to consider as well and it is important to look at both sides of the story.

Regarding the idea that we have no right to eat their honey, you could also say that we cant eat plants because animals eat plants and we cant drink water because fish live in water. You might say though, that the difference between honey and water and plants is that the bees work to make the honey, whereas the water and plants are just simply there. Bees make more honey than they need to begin with and good beekeepers will not take more honey from them than what they need to live off for the winter. When bees make more honey than what they need they can get a head start in the spring and early summer, however, bees need open cells in the hive for both honey stores and for raising brood. Extracting honey and returning empty frames gives them plenty of scope for both. If the bees have limited space and a good nectar flow they will pack it into the hive wherever they can, including the brood nest. As the queens laying area shrinks this sets off the big urge to swarm, which can cause panic with people who see swarms and don't know how to handle them and use methods of killing them instead of calling a beekeeper to collect them in a safer way.

In terms of smoking bees good beekeepers really only use burning pine needs and twigs which is not very harmful to them. It is big honey making companies that use smoke with chemicals to control the bees, which causes problems.

What I’m trying to say here is that it is mostly the large honey companies that are harming bees, which I do not agree with. However, local beekeepers tend to use more ethical ways of beekeeping.

Overall, if you choose not to eat honey because of the ways bees are treated, I think you should consider local beekeeper honey instead of mass-produced honey. If you still choose not to eat honey, that is ok too, I respect your decision. I just think it is important not to catagorize all honey production under the unethical category because of the harm the bigger companies are creating.

the-pan-feminist

From a family of beekeepers, yes to all of this! Additionally, most good beekeepers will supplement food for a hive that didn’t produce enough for themselves on top of not harvesting from them that year. Box hives also offer much more protection from predators such as wasps or badgers than natural hives. They’re also typically treated for diseases that would destroy wild hives.

necessaryveganism

you could also say that we cant eat plants because animals eat plants and we cant drink water because fish live in water.

You did somewhat refute this with what I’m about to say, but it comes down to the fact that the bees have worked their entire lives to produce that honey. You have absolutely no right to it. They have made their honey for themselves, and the others in their colony. Animals eat plants, they don’t spend their entire lives tirelessly working to grow those plants from scratch. Fish live in water just like we live in water, they don’t swim nonstop from life until death just to make water. Additionally, if we eat plants, or drink water, there is still more than enough for those creatures to continue living without any harm or distress.

good beekeepers will not take more honey from them than what they need to live off for the winter

Fantastic! Only the good, wholesome beekeepers, those that mass-produce batches of honey to sit on the shelves of every supermarket. Oh, wait, that’s not what the honey industry is made of? You say multiple times later on that it’s “big honey” that is most at fault. This reminds me of the sentiment of small farmers that claim they really love and care for their cattle and make them comfortable and happy before they’re sent off to slaughter.

It doesn’t matter how comfortable or proper you are with the animals that you’re exploiting; you’re still exploiting them. You have made the assumption that your right to take the honey, even the excess, outweighs the right of the bees that worked to create it.

Yes, but still, even the “good beekeepers” still have a high potential to cause harm when smoking bees, even without toxic chemicals or treated smoke.It’s a process that does not occur in nature, without human intervention, and is something that the bees just simply shouldn’t be subjected to, no matter how “humane” the method is.

Box hives also offer much more protection from predators such as wasps or badgers than natural hives. They’re also typically treated for diseases that would destroy wild hives.

Yes! This is indeed a wonderful aspect of beekeeping. Beekeeping can also be beneficial to restoring native pollinators to an area, rather than commercial honeybees, which are often of the non-endangered/native varieties. You know what would be great? If people kept bees just for the sake of helping them survive and thrive in their native habitat, and allow for natural pollination of the region. But the truth is, beekeepers that harvest honey care first and foremost about their personal profit, and their personal gain, from what the bees create. They still aim to profit off of a creature that has the right to keep all of what it produces, even the excess.

These are just some of my thoughts to your two responses, @thewannabeee and @the-pan-feminist

Animals, even honeybees, deserve the right not to be exploited for their life’s work, no matter how ‘humane’ you think it is, or how ‘well’ and ‘ethically’ they are treated. They are here with us, not for us.

-Admin Samantha

the-pan-feminist

To be clear, the honey in the supermarket is all corn syrup and food coloring anyway and you’re still acting like the bees get nothing out of it. You barely touched the fact that he’s are healthier in box hives and never acknowledged the benefits of extraction. Also, did you know that even as a vegan, you’re still consuming the products of bees labor? That’s how most farms pollinate their crops. They have a beekeeper bring hives. So pretty much everything you eat is because of bees labor no matter what. Without them, our entire system of growing food would collapse. And as cliche as this point is, I’m still wondering why you care so much more about the well-being of bees and the actual people who are notoriously exploited in the farming industry. You’re also making it sound like we’re forcing bees to work. We’re just letting them do what they already do while protecting the hive.

Sincerely, the daughter of a beekeeper who actually knows first hand how this system operates, probably a lot better that you do.

Edit: literally everything I originally said disproved your little blurb about “beekeepers only care about profit”. As I said, beekeepers will typically eat a loss long before they ever hurt their hive. There are even specially designed setups for feeding your bees in the winter. You don’t do that with bees you’re actively extracting from for a ton of reasons. If you’re that worried about honey, buy local rather than campaigning to take the livelihoods away from small beekeepers.

necessaryveganism

the honey in the supermarket is all corn syrup and food coloring anyway

Oh, I’m sorry. I suddenly forgot that food companies are allowed to lie, and the products that read “100% honey,” listing the ingredients as “honey,” is actually corn syrup. Honey is sold commercially, and in large volumes. Are there some imitation products? Yes. Is there actual honey sold to the masses? Also yes.

you’re still acting like the bees get nothing out of it. You barely touched the fact that he’s are healthier in box hives

I said that it’s great that they’re protected and assisted by beekeepers! I actually said it was “wonderful.” However, that’s putting lipstick on a pig, and the pig is animal exploitation. Let’s keep the talk small scale for now- okay, the bees in the hives are protected, colony stays disease free, and doesn’t collapse from external factors due to the graceful presence of a beekeeper. Now the bees, eternally grateful, kindly offer up their honey to the humans, who have assured their survival.

Oh wait. That doesn’t happen. They live, and get their work taken from them. The benefits don’t exactly matter. They’re still being exploited. What they “get out” of the deal that they are forced into is basic life protection. What they get taken from them is their life’s work.

Also, did you know that even as a vegan, you’re still consuming the products of bees labor? That’s how most farms pollinate their crops. They have a beekeeper bring hives. So pretty much everything you eat is because of bees labor no matter what.

You know what bees will do, whether in the care of a beekeeper, or naturally in the wild? They’ll pollinate. They are pollinators. That’s what they do! The whole world, as you mentioned, relies on pollinators. This is a process that must occur for ecosystems to thrive and to function. But the bees aren’t being forced to pollinate; the benefits of pollination are a byproduct of their work to assure their persona survival. This would be like someone saying “when you breathe, you’re consuming the product of tree’s labor. They convert the carbon dioxide you exhale, and through an exhaustive process, they turn it into clean oxygen that you can breath. Any breathing you do is a product of direct exploitation.”

The trees will do this whether we want them to or not. I’m not directly manipulating the tree to get a profit out of it. In the process of doing what it needs to do to survive, the tree produces something I will benefit from (oxygen). The tree also benefits from the product of what I do to survive (using carbon dioxide I exhale). This is not the same with bees- there is not a natural symbiotic bond between the production of honey from bees and the protection that humans provide them. However, the entire earth requires bees to pollinate plants, including the plants that we eat. Consuming plants that bees pollinate is not taking anything from the bees artificially, and is not harvesting something that they have done for their own personal survival.

And as cliche as this point is, I’m still wondering why you care so much more about the well-being of bees and the actual people who are notoriously exploited in the farming industry.

Who said I don’t care about the people that are exploited in the farming industry? This is a ridiculous argument. Why do you care so much about defending the exploitation of bees, rather than issues like social justice? Education for the underprivileged? Stopping human trafficking?

It might come as a surprise, but people can care about multiple issues. But this is a post about the exploitation of bees, not about the exploitation of farm workers. I can address that (I do care about it, believe it or not) in another post, another day, if you really want to hear my opinion on it.

You’re also making it sound like we’re forcing bees to work. We’re just letting them do what they already do while protecting the hive.

And then you take the product of their labor for your own personal profit. So it’s exploiting them. Did you know that you can protect a hive, and benefit bees and native pollinators, and not take anything from them? Did you know that they don’t exist so you can make a profit off of their livelihoods?

Sincerely, the daughter of a beekeeper who actually knows first hand how this system operates, probably a lot better that you do.

Sincerely, someone who doesn’t need to have a family member actively participate in something that I know is wrong for me to be educated and care about an issue

-Admin Samantha

the-pan-feminist

Literally everything you said about pollination could be argued for honey extraction and vice versa. You’re still consuming the products of their labor with the added effect of physically moving them there so they can do it. That’s a lot closer to forcing them than honey extraction is. You’re still making a profit off of pollination. And I really do encourage you too look at any ingredients lousy every once in a while because yes the companies do lie. Honey isn’t profitable on a large scale, so they water it down with corn syrup. Let me say it again: beekeepers do not take more than the excess honey. And if you’re worried about consuming their labor, you’re already doing that, sorry that it can’t really be avoided. And the family thing was so you could get it in your head that I’ve actually seen beekeeping fist hand and know how it operates but thanks for the added shit talk about my dad. You rally are a charmer. You really are going to pretend you know more about an industry than the people involved in it. Damn shame. Also pretty much all vegetable farming is a product of animal labor in some form or another. I’d bet money that half the vegetables in your house had blood meal or bone meal dumped on them at some point. Like i said, if you’re worried about honey, buy local. Hobby beekeepers like my family or @systlin who care a lot more about the bees than any potential profit.

systlin

Everything @the-pan-feminist just said, seconded, with an added “Fuck you for being an asshole” to @necessaryveganism

bloomsnake

I’m on mobile right now, but this whole thread glazes over the plight of the bees and pollinators we ACTUALLY need to be freaking out about and protecting: NATIVE BEES, NOT HONEYBEES.

The short version is that because bees are domesticated for the sole purpose of both pollinating our crops and producing honey, any problem that threatens their lives and the livelihoods of apirists will be (fairly) quickly solved. I mean, shit, domesticated honeybees (Apis mellifera, native to EUROPE) are bouncing back from colony collapse disorder.

It’s fucking ridiculous to argue about how “ethical” taking honey is when there are FAR MORE PRESSING ecological concerns for vegans to get involved with… Tell me, which is a more important issue to get outraged about: the fact that people are taking honey from domesticated species (apparently their life’s work?? Really?? This is such a flimsy argument), or the fact that humans keep on prioritizing domesticated and farmed species (i.e. our convenience and well-being) over the ecosystems that directly support us?

(P.s. To be clear, I vehemently support local beekeepers and always buy local honey. I’m not arguing against ethical beekeeping here, just… narrow-minded blanket solutions to vastly complicated problems.)

captainoftheseaqueen

What Bloomsnake said. The most ethical and healthy behavior for the environment and nature is to support ethical beekeeping practices, and I’d like to believe most are, and your natural pollinators. Some of which you may not recognize because they don’t look like honeybees or bumblebees.

For example, we have a lot of carpenter bees where I live. I didn’t even know they were bees until I looked into them. They’re far more important to my local area for pollination than honeybees, which I have seen… none of, in my area.

Knowing what your local pollinators are and supporting their growth will help, a lot.

Not to mention just… missing the point. There are plenty more things vegans should be worried about than the honey industry. Starting with how and where your food is sourced should be one, as well as the plight of people who have their native food sources now bought out and can’t afford them because it became a ‘super food’ in the US. Like the entire mess with quinoa.

serpentmythos

@necessaryveganism Just gonna leave this here for you. Have fun eating your flavoured ice, love 💕

Here’s the actual article, by the way. As well as this one, this one, aaaaand one more for good measure. That last article was actually written by a vegetarian. Have a lovely day, dear~ 💕

necessaryveganism

I’m going to diverge from the bees to address this last addition, I really am.

I’m going to ask you a question. But I’m going to ask you a question, and I’m going to toss in some pictures, because I’m not that much of a dick I’m letting you know right here that you might not be too pleased.

Good, plants know they’re being eaten. Plants have responses to external stimuli. Plants are incredibly hardy and reactive.

Now you have a choice. You’re hungry. There’s a plate of some ham and cheese sandwiches to one side. There’s a plate of fresh corn and green beans to the other side, maybe with some bread because why not. It’s not intended to be a perfectly balanced meal, that’s just food that comes to mind, so don’t go saying that you’d pick the sandwiches ‘cause it has protein and you’d die on corn alone. Just imagine the two plates. Corn and beans, and ham and cheese sandwiches.

Look, you don’t even have to imagine them

Corn and beans

Ham and cheese sandwich

Alright, now, you get to pick one to eat. But there’s a catch! You have to watch the origin of whichever food you choose to eat, and then help in the process of production, before you can eat.

Let’s say I choose the corn and beans. Even though plants know they’re being eaten, in this hypothetical, this is the process I would have to watch and participate in (graphic tw):

OH MY GOD. LOOK. AT. THE. HORROR. CORN FLYING EVERYWHERE! THE CARNAGE LEFT IN THE WAKE OF SUCH BRUTAL MACHINES! DEAR GOD, HOW COULD I EAT A FOOD BRED IN SUCH CRUELTY! THE STALKS JUST AHEAD KNOW THAT THEY’RE GOING TO BE DEMOLISHED, SHREDDED, AND ALL THEY CAN DO IS SWAY WITH THE BREEZE IN ABSOLUTE ABJECT HORROR THAT THEY’RE NEXT. HOW CAN ANYONE SUPPORT JUST AN INDUSTRY???

Okay, okay, at least the green beans, we can justify those, right?

Oh my god, even just looking for one of the photographs was nauseating. I could never, ever partake in something so cruel, so demeaning, so absolutely inhumane. What are they doing to those plants? Can’t they hear their tiny screams and see them bend desperately away from the farm equipment?

I couldn’t even watch this sort of harvest for more than a few seconds, much less participate in something so gruesome myself. Let’s take a look at what goes into that ham-and-cheese sandwich, at least, just to balance out a post full of so many graphic photographs…

Alright, so, here’s the ham part, no big deal, right? Don’t mind listening to their screams as they’re hung up and bled out, sometimes still while they’re alive. That doesn’t really phase me. Wading through blood as I kill the lives of sentient beings that are crying out for comfort, for love, for some sense of peace before their lives are ended? That’s nothing compared to watching a combine shred up an entire field of corn stalks. How about the dairy that goes into that cheese, can’t be much worse, right?

Fantastic, look at this harmless, all-natural milk machine! It’s superb! I wouldn’t mind doing that to any animal for my own pleasure, and wouldn’t have any issue slaughtering it when it’s outlived it’s usefulness.

I hope you can tell that I’ve been pretty heavy-handed on the sarcasm here.

So if you’d rather stand on the kill floor of a slaughterhouse rather than watch a combine do it’s duty… then you need some serious, serious, psychological help.

That aside, if you really, really cared about plants so much to bring them up at all, then consider the fact that one cow will need more grain and feed than any human needs- coincidentally, eating meat kills more plant-based diets do!

Just in case those words didn’t get it across, here’s a nifty infographic I love. So think about all of those plants that know that they’re being killed, to feed a cow, which will feed so many fewer people than the plants could have fed in the first place. A plant-based diet has, and pretty much always will have, one of the smallest environmental footprints (including land used to sustain the diet) in the world. If you really cared about how plants feel, you’d be vegan and minimize their suffering!!!

Now, before you start hollering about how quinoa is harvested by starving farmers who have their wages stolen from them by greedy capitalists servicing the vegan agenda, I’m going to stop you.

How many times do you stand in the aisles of the grocery store, combing over the products that you buy to make sure they’re all fair trade, equal exchange, and sustainable sourced goods? Or do you just keep stuffing your face with whatever happens to please your tastebuds? Are you standing in the middle of the grocers with your fingers stuffed in your ears, shouting “no ethical consumption under capitalism?” Because no, let’s talk about how the plants feel when there are humans being exploited by all farming industries, including the meat and dairy industry. Believe it or not, being vegan also contributes to positive movements for human rights, particularly workers that suffer extreme abuse in slaughterhouses and other components of animal agriculture. Anyone that says vegans ignore human suffering need to pull their heads out of their asses, take a good hard look at themselves, and then shut up. Like seriously.

So I want you, and anyone else there that even so much as chuckles at “plants have feelings” to take a good hard look at themselves. Because even if my diet has a negative impact, even if I don’t do everything humanly possible to care about every single of justice from microbes to plants to animals to migrant farm workers, I’m sure as hell trying a lot harder than 99% of the population. I’ve taken the time to research how animals are mercilessly slaughtered, how undocumented workers are taken advantage of, how my produce is sourced (and I grow much of my own, and purchase from local farms, thank you very much), and have made active changes to reduce the harm I do on this earth, as have most vegans.

Go ahead and take those articles and shove them up your ass, and look me dead in the eye and say that mowing the lawn hurts you as much inside as stringing up a hundred chickens and slitting their throats by hand. I want to watch you weep and sob the next time you slice a tomato. I want to see you on your hands and knees outside of a field of soybeans, sobbing into the dirt about the fact that you’ve witnessed so many innocent plants sent to death only a fraction of their lifespan.

Recently I’ve gotten comments about kindness, compassion, and educated writing on this blog. But no. This is incoherent anger, and frankly, I don’t care if it offends you, or if it sounds less than scholarly. I know that you wrote that post to get under my skin. Congratulations, it did! You poked the fucking bear! Great job, making a mockery of the deaths of billions of sentient creatures each year because you think I can’t respond to the thought that plants might have a biological defense mechanism to ensure their survival. Good on you.

I’m not even going to source anything for you. You don’t deserve it. You don’t deserve the time that I put into this post in the first place, but you know what, I’m sick of people like you. I really am. If you have the time to laugh about the thoughts that plants are able to sense that they’re being killed, then you have plenty of time to type “slaughterhouse footage” into the google search bar, sit back on your ass, and watch a few hours.

I should take this time to apologize to the bee people that are getting dragged into this, because you know what, at least they have an argument and a solid stance built on personal conviction and experience. Of all of the things that are vegan/not vegan, honey is one of the most hotly debated topics, and even if they were a little less than kind and hospitable at some points, they were at least decent enough to engage in a back-and-forth that discussed multiple, valid points. That’s why I continued to reply, even when it was clear both parties were frustrated. We disagreed, and we had a debate/argument, that I have left closed for the time being as (time bee-ing, anyone?) because I don’t have the energy to engage in it any further, and neither side was getting anywhere. So I’m sorry, bee people. This isn’t your battle. This is just getting dragged along with this hellpost. We can talk about bees and honey another time, another place, if you want. But not here. Not after this fucking plant post.

But no, you, you don’t even have an argument. You think that you can get a good last laugh after a decently lengthy debate that died out days ago. And the bottom line is that you’re not clever, you’re an ignorant fuck, and I’m surprised you can still see the sun with your head so far up your own ass.

You tagged me because you wanted a reaction. And well, you got it. Hope you’re fucking happy.

-Admin Samantha

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