"Frank-talk", also known as "To Kill or Not To Kill"
i know, I was a bit goofy with the title
The latest "Born Again" episode returned one of the recurring topics that arise between Matt Murdock and Karen Page, which is a debate about excessive methods of bringing justice, or, as we know it, murder. And most likely, those conversations, and they had a bunch of it, somehow involve Frank Castle as a stark image on which this conversation can develop. And I love those "Frank-talks" for lots of reasons, but most importantly, what they mean to these two characters (Matt & Karen) and how the discourse evolve over the years.
So, there's a few things that need to be explored in order to get a better sense of these dialogues:
- Why is The Punisher becomes a cornerstone here?
- What are Matt and Karen's values and views, how they differ and do they differ in the first place?
- What are results of such conversations?
So, what's initial role of Frank Castle in the scenes, that doesn't even have him? Well, we need to realize that he is a barely literal figure here, and more of a concept, a representation of excessive, bloody justice and dark tendencies that tickle both Matt and Karen in that regard. He's not really a person in this talks, more like an idea. It's not really Frank, but the path he chose to achieve his goals, and never-ending "What If?" bubbling inside Daredevil and a major part of his supporting cast. What if I choose the same path?
We need to trace back to the first ever Frank-talk in original series, 2x02. And it's giving a very clear answers about internal feelings of Matt and Karen on the matter, because they project themselves onto The Punisher role and how do they connect themselves to it.
Matt: faced with the idea that Daredevil might be the reason why The Punisher exists in the first place, Matt becomes a strong opposition of The Punisher's worldview and way of solving problems. Later, in the rooftop debate with Frank Castle himself, it becomes even more clearer that Matt is more similar to Punisher than he would like to admit and it's only the matter of "one bad day" 'till he starts, as he believes, no-brainer hell-bent massacre, which he deems wrong by the very core of him, due to Catholic upbringing, his own experience with crime and long study of law to change the world within the system. Matt in that dialogue tries to proof, mostly to himself, that he is still a good guy.
Karen: she also talking about herself. Daredevil's activity directly influenced her in S1, and something "pushed a good men to take guns". It's Karen's way of telling that despite murdering someone she is still a good person, without actually revealing her crime. She unintentionally believes Punisher existence is somehow a, ehem, punishment for her crime, the one she avoided for so long, and she tries to prove her right to live, by rationalizing what happened with possibility of The Punisher being somewhat similar to her, someone forced to take a weapon.
The real problem here, and later in "Study Date" in 2x07 isn't conflicting views on murder. It is only a threshold to a more complex thing. It's the fact that both Matt and Karen can't tell each other truth about themselves yet, show their authenticity, as they believe that this sides of them would scare off people. It forces them to cling on certain image, but the deeper they delve into this conversation, the more they are risking to ruin this image, and it's a worst outcome. They want to love each other, but also want to be loved back (according to Deborah Ann Woll's description of the scene). The Punisher is a stark example of something to be avoided as a representation for both of them, but they don't know that they are resembling that image enough to be almost the same. It's the journey of Matt and Karen in original series, to learn exactly how similar they are to one another.
The views on murder isn't that big of a dealbreaker. Matt is open to idea of necessary "one kill" more often that he'd like to admit. It's his entire inner conflict of S1, whether he will or won't kill Kingpin. To paraphrase Father Lanthom, it's not really about the right or wrong of murder, it's more where the intention of that murder comes from: selfish thirst for violence or actually as the only way to solve global problem. Matt is going to kill Fisk in 1x09, the same way he accepts the possibility of killing Blacksmith in 2x11, and later "kills" Nobu in 2x13 (for the second time, actually). Should I even mention the entirety of Season 3, where Matt is pretty much sure that "killing Fisk is his way back".
Karen is also conflicted on necessary "one kill". She's filled with guilt over deaths that not even her fault, it's kinda silly to assume she actually cherishes Punisher way of thinking. She's not, and she explicitly tells that she doesn't believe in his methods or their righteousness. Karen regularly confronts with Frank himself, attempting to "save his soul", because in her mind, Frank's murderous ways are corrupting. She's trying to elaborate her unique "gray-area" position on the scales of morality. She fails to do so, because Karen didn't really figured out her feeling on a matter yet. But as long as she believes that Frank Castle can be redeemed, it means for her she also can be redeemed.
This is where we come back to "Born Again" 2x03. It's not even a fight. Karen, yet again, explains that her concerns are about killing Fisk and Fisk only, and Matt admits he thinks of the same thing every day from perspective "will it bribg Foggy back?". But now, as they know each others dark sides, it's a bit different thing that makes them to be on opposite sides of conversation.
The truth is, they still project themselves on Frank. With Matt it's more explicit, if we remember 1x04. He comes to Frank for "permission", in a way, to get a blessing to stop holding back, and he gets that permission in 1x09 with Cole North. He'd already experienced "one bad day" and purposefully wanted and tried to kill Poindexter, and as Frank told him in OG 2x11, it's sort of point-of-no-return. The thesis suggests that path of murder basically closes the door to any sort of life beyond killing, at least for him, a champion of black-and-white worldview with clear, altho still blurred distinction between good and evil. This is why Karen is the one to change his mind in S3.
Matt is concerned by him turning into "Frank". Again, not literal figure, but the concept of a tormented person who's obsessed with past grudges and necessity to kill to feel whole, to feel real, authentic. And he's in fact gradually more violent and brutal than ever before. Daredevil impales people with his grappling hook, which is not a tactic used by him in media at all, for example. In this paradigm that he's currently in, where he still doesn't know who he is after Foggy's death, where he's doubtful of literally everything and relies heavily on Karen's opinion, and focused on somehow "moving forward", that "one kill" is unacceptable, because "there is no way back from it".
Previous episode juxtapose Matt and Karen to Fisks, as they talk about whether they have life and future beyond New York and seemingly never-ending cycle of conflict between Kingpin and Daredevil. This is the core of later conversation about murder: the future. Matt is pretty much open to the idea, but chooses not to act by it, not really because of his morals, but because he wants to have a future, a future with Karen, whom he deems as a beacon and guardian-angel of his, that would drag him out of darkness pit the same way she did in S3 and in "Born Again" 1x09. Remember? "You will die or you will kill".
And now she's considering that "The Punisher is effective". Matt is not judgmental, but rather concerned or even scared. He doesn't snap back, doesn't raise his voice, he listens to her frustrations, he doesn't really argue when Karen starts ranting on "nothing happening", he even agrees, saying "I know". Matt is concerned about Karen having such thoughts and tendencies, because he's afraid of loosing her in this darkness, the same way Frank Castle is lost in his eternal war against crime. He barely comprehends his own thoughts, and now the core of his decision-making also becomes doubtful and uncertain about what would be better.
Karen, on the other hand, thinks about necessary "one kill", because ending Fisk once and for all means there's a chance at having a life beyond this conflict. She can't allow Matt to kill out of fear of loosing him, but she's willing to take that upon herself, believing that she can navigate thru it and come back. It's her own sacrifice she's willing to make. A little bit of classic Karen's hypocrisy (this said not in a mean way).
It's coming from her modernized "i'm not ready to become an early widow" dilemma from classic 60s comics. She spends all three episodes being enormously scared of possibility of Matt "not coming back", talking about it constantly, and she is ready to kill for him and for them, if that means securing their shared life and future.
She's almost offended that Matt assumes she's talking about her going "Frank" way of going on a killing-spree (coincidentally, this exact way is what's happening to Bullseye, who also seeks redemption in his own twisted way by killing AVTF officers, and Karen hates this guy). Her another greatest fear is to be judged by Matt, so at any given possibility of any kind of conflict between them, she unwillingly thinks he's judgemental. She clarifies that she talks only about "serpent's head". She clarifies, because it's yet another classic trope in their dynamic rooting from classic comics: miscommunication.
Notice that this conversation doesn't escalate and transitions to chances of Matt's survival, and they hold hands. While it seems unresolved, both Matt and Karen were given chance to express themselves clear and come to unspoken agreement. They still have legal way to defeat Fisk, and as long as they do, they won't use that "one kill" option.
Another point in case: Karen's gun. Not a single scene Matt even questions it. Neither 10 years ago nor now. In S3 he's guiding Nadeem to shoot Fisk's mercenaries himself. He's more than tolerant to usage of a gun as a self-defense. And even when Karen shoots an AVTF officer, while being distracted by it, Matt, instead of bringing that up, decides to indirectly apologise for the mess, not gathering evidences they initially came for and freeing people from cages. He talks about his "fuck-up", and ignores Karen shooting a guy, the same way he accepted her killing Wesley. Because Karen is acting out of self-defense (or at least, Matt thinks that for now), altho it comes with fatal outcome. This is the line: Frank uses guns as a main instrument of bringing justice, purposefully searching for a kill. Karen's not.
Anyway, there's so much more to talk about, but we have to see following episodes for that. Obviously, there's gonna be a big fallout that somewhat connected to that dilemma, but as far as we know, Matt and Karen will figure things out in the end, thanks to leaked set photos. It would be more fair to have this discussion when whole season releases, but here we are.
kaledo-art
dededos
origamiaround
annaxmalina
vaporwave
kianamaiart
discoholicmusic
