Several people have already pointed out the similarities between Sunday from hsr and a certain persona 5 royal final boss but something I haven't seen yet is the similarities between Sunday and Makima from csm.
Spoilers of course for Penacony and Chainsaw Man Part 1
The root of all their similarities really go down to their relationship to control and how they both exert control over it and how it impacts their lives. Sunday wishes to erase negative concepts from his world because of the numerous situations he's been in where he had little control. Makima wishes to erase negative concepts from her world because despite being the control devil, she does not have control over the nature of the bonds she forms with others. She believes she cannot form equal relationships. Another thing is their relationship to "weak" characters. Makima can control whoever she believes she is better than, this further separates her from the people around her. Sunday is a bit different where he put them all in a dream and characters can break free on their own but it has the same effect where they both isolate themselves even further which causes them to deepen their belief in their ideals. They both self sabotage for the sake of a perfect paradise even if Makima's true motive is more selfish. Another thing is the city mouse vs country mouse. Its not the same but to me it serves a similar role as the "false choice" for Sunday. Choosing between letting the charmony dove out into the wild (growing, taking a risk for the opportunity to become better) vs caging it forever (running away from danger and consequence. The safe option). They both present it as a false choice although in opposite directions.
Ultimately, Sunday is much more altruistic in his goals but they share a lot of similar ideas in their story overall.
Sara and Shin have always been very obvious foils and a big major difference that has been shown repeatedly is that oh Sara has allies and Shin doesnt but it's not only exclusive to the death game. Sara has friends (Joe and Ryoko) while Shin had none (we'll get to Midori in a second). Something in common with both of them that I've never seen brought up in discussion is how they as children (highschool age) gain the attention of adults. No matter what the nature of Kai's affection for Sara is, in the very beginning of the game it is portrayed as predatory. Keiji, while to a much lesser extent, is also intentionally meant to feel suspicious and its clear other characters find how he talks to Sara weird (Reko says its gross I believe and Shin uses it to mock/taunt him). Memorandum girl is also a highschool girl who gains the attention of the writer who is an adult man. I think Shin and his relationship with Midori is also very predatory with them meeting when Shin was in highschool. With the repeated mention of the importance of their bonds I can't help but notice all these instances of negative attention and affection. Ranmaru, while not an adult, is also another instance of this. I wonder how this tie in with the themes presented so far.
ok. now i can actually elaborate. if anyone needs my credentials just know im insanely autistic about chainsaw man and minecraft in general. alright lets begin.
very important thing to keep in mind is how pvp!evbo relates to denji (the protagonist of csm). this post by @/0smorh1za sums it up pretty well, but for the sake of those who dont know about csm, ill elaborate. pvp!evbo is presumably not an adult with how everyone calls him kid and with how naive he is (i say presumably because theres no confirmation for it, so for now its branching more into hc territory.), so he misinterprets how characters interact with him and how exactly hes meant to interact back, and is 'selfish' in the way most teenagers are selfish. he is incredibly materialistic and is more often than not, willing to risk himself just to have those things.
rounding back on how he interacts with characters and how they interact back, you can see this best with how he interacts with tabi, and how zam interacts with him. this post from @/myreputatioooon includes a screenshot of a comment talking about how evbo seeks connection through chasing after tabi and his video journalism. he doesnt understand how friendship is meant to work, because presumably friendship is seen as a weakness in a society built on using violence as a means to support yourself, and with the vague one-off establishment that there ARE family units of some kind, he goes with the only thing he knows that is close in regards to friendship: having a girlfriend. he yearns for a connection and doesnt quite grasp how to go about asking for it. oh god this is gonna keep going i didnt realise how long id yap about pvp!evbo ok the rest is under the cut OOPS!!
as for how zam interacts with him, he sees him as a nuisance and a tool for the greater public. hes reassuring in the worst ways, and it works on evbo because he doesnt understand better. he knows that the situation hes in is unfair, but hes being faced with an ultimatum (the death of his only friend, or the death of many). they keep things over his head to get him to go along with whats happening, and even then hes still looking for a way to get out of his situation. hes not just going to lie down and accept that hes cattle to these people, he needs to survive. he wants a better life for himself, and for tabi, his guard friend, and eventually all of civilisation (dont get it twisted though, he is still very much so in it for himself, but him seeking a better life indirectly drags everyone else along with him)
ok im done talking about pvp!evbo (even though i could talk about how hes also a power parallel), but i need everyone who doesnt know anything about csm to understand that denji was faced with a very similar ultimatum (and didnt get out nearly as lucky as evbo did. while denji wasnt directly being used for his skills, his desire to live a better life placed him in the perfect position to get manipulated by makima. she gave him a family (aki, power), and then ripped them away in order to keep him dejected. this didnt work, and he killed her in the end, but he didnt live his happy ending.)
you could argue zam is more like makima than tabi is, but i believe theyre two sides of the same coin. zam is definitely conditioning (or trying to condition) evbo into thinking this is Fine. hes meant to do this. hes saving people of course! zam ultimately doesnt care about evbo in the slightest and enjoys the control he has over him. tabi is very apathetic to evbo and has her own goals to get out of this civilisation, and you could argue she began using evbo to further her goals the second she learned he can respawn, but she DOES care about him in some way, even if he was hopelessly attached to her for a while. zam and tabi arent 1 to 1 with makima, but they get down a lot of what i think makes her a good villain (and if tabi is a villain, she is written REALLY well as a character, because i actually would not have seen it coming in the best way. i think zam deserved to be fleshed out a lot more, but hes also a good villain for the series), which i appreciate greatly.
now, what about reze? weve already covered what i think makes tabi a good makima parallel (using evbo for her own goals without being clear that she is, the general kind of disregard she has for him, the control she has over him that he doesnt quite realise she has), but i think shes also a good reze parallel.
reze is the bomb devil hybrid, much like how denji is the chainsaw devil hybrid, and while they dont bond over this (she IS meant to kill denji and take his heart, afterall), they do have common ground to stand on. their isolation growing up and being trained explicitly for the betterment of the people around them and Not Themselves, and their need to see a better future, to run away.
tabi and evbo "bond" under similar notions. they want better lives, to leave, and to not be tools (shes a tool of the system, evbo is a tool of the masses. they keep the cycle of civilisation going). them bonding over this is very important to both of them, even if tabi doesnt make it clear at all. despite this, shes still keeping things from him and using evbo, potentially setting up some kind of betrayal. much like reze!! tabi doesnt outright hate evbo, and doesnt mind having him around, but she certainly isnt too worried about him because shes too preoccupied with her own goals to care.
tabi and evbo kinda drive me up the walls and i hope they get to be friends and nothing bad happens to them but i also kinda hope pvpciv ends on a very bittersweet note. the children yearn for tabi betrayal.
Their relationship is so fascinating... Makima and Tabi, while not being the exact same (I seriously doubt Tabi is a mother figure), are still both characters that bring change and opportunities for a new better life for Denji and Evbo. And their acts of kindness (feeding and being nice to Denji/sparing and teaching Evbo) is what causes them to "fall in love" or be attracted to them. The big major difference in these characters is that Makima knows what she was doing and was actively trying to manipulate him while Tabi (probably) did not mean to do anything like making him into her servant. I have a feeling that if Tabi does betray Evbo it will be a sudden twist like possibly putting him in danger but it's an interesting thought that she likely could manipulate him if she realized the power she has over him (he DID get killed several times without fighting back for her sake)
YES!!! YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!! i think its also super interesting to note that they both sorta "fell in love" near instantly, without the other really doing much of anything. makima offered denji a job and tabi just.. didnt kill evbo. they LITERALLY gave the other a chance to live!! and its so!!!! im throwing tabi at the wall like a squeaky toy
i agree with the points about tabi, she does NOT know the power she has over evbo. shes still mostly uncaring towards him (after they both escape she just. doesnt bother to check in on evbo. they just move on) so i dont think she really CARES to know the power she has over him but. i do like to think abt how different the story could be if tabi just Knew
i do personally have to disagree with the notion that she isnt really manipulating him though. obviously shes not making him into her servant (Looks At Makima) but she is using evbo as a sort of means to an end, once she realised he can respawn she kinda began using that to her advantage. having him go ahead and scope out everything before dying etc etc, he was kinda her ticket for going to the diamond level with very little conflict outside of the wood and stone requirements of wins. i dont think she really NEEDS to know the power she has over him when shes perfectly content using him as is
You're right I totally forgot they assume Evbo still has his respawn... I just kinda figured they knew since Tabi jumped down with Evbo and I don't remember why she did. I totally worded things very poorly cause yes Tabi absolutely is using him but unlike Makims she isn't going out of her way to keep him under her control.
ok. now i can actually elaborate. if anyone needs my credentials just know im insanely autistic about chainsaw man and minecraft in general. alright lets begin.
very important thing to keep in mind is how pvp!evbo relates to denji (the protagonist of csm). this post by @/0smorh1za sums it up pretty well, but for the sake of those who dont know about csm, ill elaborate. pvp!evbo is presumably not an adult with how everyone calls him kid and with how naive he is (i say presumably because theres no confirmation for it, so for now its branching more into hc territory.), so he misinterprets how characters interact with him and how exactly hes meant to interact back, and is 'selfish' in the way most teenagers are selfish. he is incredibly materialistic and is more often than not, willing to risk himself just to have those things.
rounding back on how he interacts with characters and how they interact back, you can see this best with how he interacts with tabi, and how zam interacts with him. this post from @/myreputatioooon includes a screenshot of a comment talking about how evbo seeks connection through chasing after tabi and his video journalism. he doesnt understand how friendship is meant to work, because presumably friendship is seen as a weakness in a society built on using violence as a means to support yourself, and with the vague one-off establishment that there ARE family units of some kind, he goes with the only thing he knows that is close in regards to friendship: having a girlfriend. he yearns for a connection and doesnt quite grasp how to go about asking for it. oh god this is gonna keep going i didnt realise how long id yap about pvp!evbo ok the rest is under the cut OOPS!!
as for how zam interacts with him, he sees him as a nuisance and a tool for the greater public. hes reassuring in the worst ways, and it works on evbo because he doesnt understand better. he knows that the situation hes in is unfair, but hes being faced with an ultimatum (the death of his only friend, or the death of many). they keep things over his head to get him to go along with whats happening, and even then hes still looking for a way to get out of his situation. hes not just going to lie down and accept that hes cattle to these people, he needs to survive. he wants a better life for himself, and for tabi, his guard friend, and eventually all of civilisation (dont get it twisted though, he is still very much so in it for himself, but him seeking a better life indirectly drags everyone else along with him)
ok im done talking about pvp!evbo (even though i could talk about how hes also a power parallel), but i need everyone who doesnt know anything about csm to understand that denji was faced with a very similar ultimatum (and didnt get out nearly as lucky as evbo did. while denji wasnt directly being used for his skills, his desire to live a better life placed him in the perfect position to get manipulated by makima. she gave him a family (aki, power), and then ripped them away in order to keep him dejected. this didnt work, and he killed her in the end, but he didnt live his happy ending.)
you could argue zam is more like makima than tabi is, but i believe theyre two sides of the same coin. zam is definitely conditioning (or trying to condition) evbo into thinking this is Fine. hes meant to do this. hes saving people of course! zam ultimately doesnt care about evbo in the slightest and enjoys the control he has over him. tabi is very apathetic to evbo and has her own goals to get out of this civilisation, and you could argue she began using evbo to further her goals the second she learned he can respawn, but she DOES care about him in some way, even if he was hopelessly attached to her for a while. zam and tabi arent 1 to 1 with makima, but they get down a lot of what i think makes her a good villain (and if tabi is a villain, she is written REALLY well as a character, because i actually would not have seen it coming in the best way. i think zam deserved to be fleshed out a lot more, but hes also a good villain for the series), which i appreciate greatly.
now, what about reze? weve already covered what i think makes tabi a good makima parallel (using evbo for her own goals without being clear that she is, the general kind of disregard she has for him, the control she has over him that he doesnt quite realise she has), but i think shes also a good reze parallel.
reze is the bomb devil hybrid, much like how denji is the chainsaw devil hybrid, and while they dont bond over this (she IS meant to kill denji and take his heart, afterall), they do have common ground to stand on. their isolation growing up and being trained explicitly for the betterment of the people around them and Not Themselves, and their need to see a better future, to run away.
tabi and evbo "bond" under similar notions. they want better lives, to leave, and to not be tools (shes a tool of the system, evbo is a tool of the masses. they keep the cycle of civilisation going). them bonding over this is very important to both of them, even if tabi doesnt make it clear at all. despite this, shes still keeping things from him and using evbo, potentially setting up some kind of betrayal. much like reze!! tabi doesnt outright hate evbo, and doesnt mind having him around, but she certainly isnt too worried about him because shes too preoccupied with her own goals to care.
tabi and evbo kinda drive me up the walls and i hope they get to be friends and nothing bad happens to them but i also kinda hope pvpciv ends on a very bittersweet note. the children yearn for tabi betrayal.
Their relationship is so fascinating... Makima and Tabi, while not being the exact same (I seriously doubt Tabi is a mother figure), are still both characters that bring change and opportunities for a new better life for Denji and Evbo. And their acts of kindness (feeding and being nice to Denji/sparing and teaching Evbo) is what causes them to "fall in love" or be attracted to them. The big major difference in these characters is that Makima knows what she was doing and was actively trying to manipulate him while Tabi (probably) did not mean to do anything like making him into her servant. I have a feeling that if Tabi does betray Evbo it will be a sudden twist like possibly putting him in danger but it's an interesting thought that she likely could manipulate him if she realized the power she has over him (he DID get killed several times without fighting back for her sake)
What are your thoughts on the line from Jade about Aventurine's eyes? (I think she mentioned that they're pretty and asked if they glow in the dark) That line in particular really stood out to me as odd and I was curious if anyone else thought the same.
TW: discussions of pedophilla, slavery and sexual assault. Stay safe out there yall
Oh I hate it, in a good way, I hate it in a good way. My reaction was, “ugh- good job writers”. It’s an amazing showcase of Jade’s intelligence and her ability to pinpoint the insecurities of people that she can use to her benefit. She immediately notices what Aventurine doesn’t like about himself and uses it to put him on edge and demonstrate her advantage. It’s terrifying, I love it.
I also find it to be creepy in a different manner, due to how other people have talked about Aventurine’s eyes, highlighting their beauty but proceeding to insult him after (Sparkle, she also calls him a prostitute after and insinuated that Sigonians use their appealing features to trick people). That, plus the fact that he uses his tinted sunglasses to hide them (there’s a note about it somewhere I swear), is what makes me think this is and has been a major insecurity for Aventurine ever since he got enslaved. Because, well, it seems like people fetishize his eyes and he understandably does not like that.
Which, when viewed in this way, puts Jade in a really weird position in this scene, commenting on a fetishized feature of a character in the same way others who hurt them would in the past, all while maintaining a clear position of power over them (Aven is literally looking up at her in chains). Combine that with the fact that we don’t actually know how old Aventurine was in that scene, and it reads as really, really weird in this context.
However, I don’t think she meant it in that way, I think she was just trying to do what I said in paragraph two, but I’m not going to lie it made me very uncomfortable (in a good way).
What does upset me is that I don’t see anyone else really pointing out the weird undertone in that scene, and brushing Jade off as if she saved Aventurine, which completely ignores what happened in it and the fact that she was deliberately trying to make him uncomfortable from the start.
Although I’m glad people didn’t jump to the p3do allegations, the fact that I’ve seen almost nobody point out anything wrong at all is a little worrying to say the least, because as much as I hate to say it, this shit would have not gone over well at all if Aventurine was a woman and Jade a man. She’d be done for, it would be Dottore but worse, that woman would never see the light of day again and any one of her fans would immediately be written off as p3do supporters.
Not because I think people let women get away with that kinda shit more, they definitely do, writing off the victim as “lucky” rather than as a victim. However I don’t really want to get into that can of worms, and I moreso think the way people perceive Jade is a byproduct of the fact that most situations in media (I’m pretty sure this applies statistically irl as well) like hers and Avens is between an older man and a younger girl, so people are able to recognize that dynamic more easily than its inverse.
That’s also why I’m not a big fan of transmasc Aventurine headcanons, since he’s implied to have been a victim of the kind of violence, and representation for amab victims is rather lacking in media. I’m well aware that’s not the intention of people who make those headcanons by I still dislike them nonetheless, this is one of those few situations where I feel a characters sex is important to their story.
Luckily, Jade isn’t a p3do, and I’m delighted they are adding a very blatantly villainous female character to the game, even if the community doesn’t appreciate that, and keeps trying to paint her as a good person. Jades morally grey at best, let her be evil she’s so much more fun that way pls guys.
However, the description of that recent leaked lightcone of hers might change my mind on that last point if she drops. I doubt hoyo would go in that direction with her blatantly, but I guess we have to wait and see.
Jade's splash art is so fascinating. Obviously the snake and apple are a reference to the snake and forbidden fruit in the garden of eden, with the tree behind Jade likely being the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The thing that really stands out to me though is the roots of the tree preventing the man from moving. I think this is particularly noteworthy because the ability to make your own choices, to forge your own path, is not only the theme of the game, but also the reason why God added the tree with the forbidden fruit into the garden of eden in the first place. The whole thing can be seen as the ipc trapping people in it's organization with the temptation of wealth.
Jade's introduction when first revealed on Twitter: "Wealth is the recipe to happiness. Giving it to those who desire happiness is making the best use of it. In this way, my job also brings people happiness. Anyone can receive this blessing... They only have to pay an equivalent price."
I wonder if that price is becoming a "slave" to the ipc
Also side note, the snake has very similar design elements to the memory zone enemies (dark purple, bright pink eyes)
I think it's interesting that Jade seems to be a combination of 2 previous people in Aventurine's life. The only person Aventurine had a positive relationship and received support from in his life was his older sister and his worst relationship was with his master (possibly the previous Aventurine). Jade is an older female figure that fulfills his needs and can be seen as a protector (is the reason why he was not executed) but she employs him for the same reason that the man bought him, investment.
I think it's also intriguing that Aventurine has a collar around his neck in his design. I think it's very telling that Aventurine's relationship with both Jade and the IPC is meant to parallel his previous owner in a way.
I love the fact that Aventurine is a gambler, not only because of how luck is such an important part of his character, but also because gambling is (usually, stuff like poker) is a zero sum game. Your win will cause someone else's loss. Theres no teamwork or cooperation. He's stated multiple times I'm pretty sure to be hard to work with. (ex. Topaz, Dr Ratio, etc) Not only that but his good luck only extends to himself. His luck doesn't extend to others and because of that he will always be the final winner, the final victor. He couldn't cooperate with and survive with his people or the other slaves. And because he keeps surviving, because he keeps living, he is preservation. Because even self preservation is still preservation.
Also there's this excerpt from the hsr wiki:
"Those who follow the "Preservation" Path admire patience, sacrifice, and defensive behavior."
I Am So Normal about him. The way his character is both about being always alone, both by circumstances and by choice, and about being a part of something bigger than just himself (him holding onto his culture and subconsciously seeking companionship).
I remember yapping to my friend about his eidolons. His e1 is named " the prisoner's dilemma", after a game theory with the same name. The general idea of this theory is that betrayal is the optimal solution, in order to survive one must put their interest before cooperation. And his e6 is named after the stag hunt dilemma which sums up to the idea that cooperation is the key to the most desirable outcome. I oversimplify it greatly but that's the general idea. And I think it adds up to Aventurine's inner conflict so perfectly. Especially since characters' e6 is supposed to represent their core (them being relaxed and bare in front of you), I think it's fitting that Aven's e6 is the one that represents his need of being able to rely on someone.
I really want to pull my hair out he's so well written Shaoji I own you mu life
DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR YAPPING!!!! I absolutely love how in the end he holds onto his culture and their beliefs and it's INSANE how I see no one talking about it so thank you for mentioning it.
I am also a huge fan of game theory I think it's so interesting and that's why I think it's interesting that Aventurine's e1 is the prisoners dilemma. It is the most famous game yes but also it's a game that completely changes with multiple rounds. While yes the best/safest choice in the prisoners dilemma is to betray, the best option in the iterated prisoner's dilemma is actually to cooperate unless the opponent betrays you. (After that betrayal, you copy their last move) And I think this also encapsulates Aventurine's arc very well. Yes he starts out with not cooperating well with others, by the end of 2.1 he is able to take the first steps towards trusting someone with Dr Ratio's note confirming he is in fact on his side, which we know that is something he was worried about.
I love the fact that Aventurine is a gambler, not only because of how luck is such an important part of his character, but also because gambling is (usually, stuff like poker) is a zero sum game. Your win will cause someone else's loss. Theres no teamwork or cooperation. He's stated multiple times I'm pretty sure to be hard to work with. (ex. Topaz, Dr Ratio, etc) Not only that but his good luck only extends to himself. His luck doesn't extend to others and because of that he will always be the final winner, the final victor. He couldn't cooperate with and survive with his people or the other slaves. And because he keeps surviving, because he keeps living, he is preservation. Because even self preservation is still preservation.
Also there's this excerpt from the hsr wiki:
"Those who follow the "Preservation" Path admire patience, sacrifice, and defensive behavior."
And the best thing is that he is a tank that give shield to everyone without any cost, which is completely opposite to his character idea like you explained just now.
Gepard- need to wait until his ult
Mqrch 7th- only one shild per turn
Fu xuan- only damage reduction, no shield
While for aventurine its: starting battle? Shield, follow up attack? Shield, skill? Shield! And its stackable.
His luck is for himself but his abilities are also for others
To be honest I haven't put much thought into his current kit, only the beta version mentioned in the 2.1 livestream.
The thing that really sticks out to me is the chips and the fact that it's called "fortified wager". I can kind of see it as him "betting" on the other members of the team, similar to his actions in Penacony. (He literally gives us money)
I love the fact that Aventurine is a gambler, not only because of how luck is such an important part of his character, but also because gambling is (usually, stuff like poker) is a zero sum game. Your win will cause someone else's loss. Theres no teamwork or cooperation. He's stated multiple times I'm pretty sure to be hard to work with. (ex. Topaz, Dr Ratio, etc) Not only that but his good luck only extends to himself. His luck doesn't extend to others and because of that he will always be the final winner, the final victor. He couldn't cooperate with and survive with his people or the other slaves. And because he keeps surviving, because he keeps living, he is preservation. Because even self preservation is still preservation.
Also there's this excerpt from the hsr wiki:
"Those who follow the "Preservation" Path admire patience, sacrifice, and defensive behavior."
