“TERF is when a trans man affirms that trans men are actually men for real and not a type of girl, and that trans women are in fact women and deserve to be treated as such and embraced as lesbians, I am very smart”
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@contagiouswatermelon
“TERF is when a trans man affirms that trans men are actually men for real and not a type of girl, and that trans women are in fact women and deserve to be treated as such and embraced as lesbians, I am very smart”
trans women and cis women are the same gender, btw.
they said mamdani just legalized playin in ur butt
"There's no product you have to purchase to be a real member of any queer demographic" and "there are certain types of healthcare that should be more available to specific queer populations" are actually completely non-contradictory statements, and if you think otherwise you've gotten mind poisoned by capitalist models of healthcare
A lot of G*nd*r Cr*t*c*ls like to say, "I don't iDeNtIfY as a woman, I simply observe that I am one," and great, yeah, me too! I'm not sure I have a gender identity as such, and even if I do have one it feels more like an approximation to inadequately describe a whole cluster of traits.
What I do have, though, is a social class that I am placed into whether I want to be or not, and that social class is "woman". It is not a choice I am making, it's a choice society has made about me.
My two closest friends are cis women. When we are hanging out together, it's me who cooks and me who does the dishes afterwards, it's me who remembers birthdays and me who keeps track of the time to make sure we're not late for whatever we've got planned. And not because I want to be doing these things, but rather because over the decades we've known eachother, we've got into this pattern of labour and labour expectations, so that if this labour doesn't get done there is an unspoken sense that it is somehow my fault.
And even though everyone involved is a woman in one way or another, it is me that most occupies the social role of "woman" while we are together, and it was like this even when I considered myself to be a man. And it's like this in almost every group I'm in, and even more obviously on those rare occasions I'm in a group of men.
Yes, "woman" can be a gender identity, but it can also be a social class that is imposed on you whether you want it or not. I've been "simply observing" that I am a woman every time a man speaks over me or steals my ideas at work, every time a doctor rolls their eyes at me for hypochondria because I've booked three appointments within a single calendar year, every time I've been paid less than a man for the same work, and every time a man has presumed my sexual availability to him.
You know, I would actually like to fully embody being a perfectly androgynous mysterious non-binary genderfuck creature who defies gendered expectations, but in this society I don't get to be that, because I would be a genderfuck creature who is still expected to do the dishes.
One of the central contradictions of transmisogyny is that society and the state seem to put so much more energy into policing the boundaries of womanhood, an oppressed class, compared to manhood, a oppressor class. This seems to make no sense. Surely it should be easier to move into an oppressed class than out of one, no?
The explanation is that it is not "womanhood" whose boundaries are so harshly policed, but a smaller category of "women worth protecting". That is, trans women are treated as women (held to impossible beauty standards, sexualised, talked over, underpaid, etc etc) even while they are denied the protections that "women worth protecting" are able to access, protections that include the right to name your own oppression by calling yourself what you are: a woman.
It is actually very easy to become a woman (in the sense of the social class). All it takes is for an average cis man to sincerely wear "women's clothes" one time (i.e. not as part of a performance), and he will be experience a whole load of misogyny for an age thereafter. You have to be a cis man with an incredibly high social status to get away with this. It's correspondingly very hard to become a man (the social class) after you have been in the class of "woman", it will take many months and demonstations of his commitment to manhood for the man who wore "women's clothes" one time to fully return there.
Similarly, if a someone who is viewed as an average cis man suddenly comes out as a woman, she will find two things happen pretty much simultaneously. First, she immediately becomes a (particularly marginalised) woman: she will instantly be subject to sexually invasive questions, will instantly incur the scorn of people who had previously liked her, will have her clothing criticised, her work disparaged, etc etc. And second, as a consequence of now being a woman, she will find that her sincere statements about herself are immediately discredited and contradicted: "No, you're not a woman" will be a common response. She would've been taken more seriously if she had come out as being from Alpha Centauri, because she would then at least still be a man, and to be a woman who is not "worth protecting" is to be denied the right to speak on your own inner life. It is a great irony that the contradiction, "No, you're not a woman," is the very thing that demonstrates that you are one.
Black women, South Asian women, Arab women, fat women, autistic women, gay women, working-class women, sex workers, and many other groups of women have found themselves denied access to the category of "women worth protecting" in various cultures and at various times. Trans women happen to be on the frontline of this fight right now in much of Europe and North America.
If you believe that bathroom bans etc are the state "protecting women", you have to ask why the state is suddenly so interested in protecting an oppressed class, when a big part of being an oppressed class is being denied the state's protection. Could it be because the state is not protecting "women" but rather the slightly different class of "women worth protecting"? Which is to say, that the specific oppression of "women not worth protecting" is the whole point.
I think it makes to sense to consider the term "AMAB" to be a transmisogynistic slur at this point.
It is a term that is pretty much always used with transfems in mind. Even though 99% of "AMAB" people are cis men and 100% of cis men were "AMAB", the term does not convey "cis men plus some other tiny groups included on a technicality", but rather specifically focuses your attention on the alleged similarities between cis men and transfems.
For instance, a phrase like "men's attitudes towards women" hints that men are generally misogynistic, whereas "AMAB attitudes towards women" suggests that transfems specifically are no different from cis men in their misogyny. The act of co-categorisation is in itself a political position.
I am only comfortable hearing "AMAB" from other transfems, and even then only if I trust that they understand it in the same way I do. Hearing it from anyone else is like a disorienting jolt or a slap in the face, barely different from the T-slur.
There's this seeming divide in the transfem community between those who regard their time in the closet as a time when they were nonetheless experiencing misogyny and transmisogyny, often framed as "girlhood" or "trans girlhood", and those who regard their closeted life as something closer to a "normal" boyhood.
I've had many awkward interactions when trying to argue that trans women were not "male socialised", as the occasional transfem will jump in to contradict me and say that she did have a "normal boy childhood". I've been told at times that, by describing my own life, I make transfems who don't understand their youth as a "girlhood" feel like they're fake or inauthentically trans.
I've often struggled with this, because so much of how I understand my own life is through the lens of desperation to find the words to describe a gender expression that has barely changed since I was a kid. Understanding myself as a woman has helped make sense of experiences in my youth that made no sense otherwise. Why was I talked over all the time? Why was I sexually assaulted so often? Why did I struggle to turn academic success into career success? Why was I underpaid compared to my peers? Understanding that I was viewed as a kind of girl (even as I was denied the right to name myself "girl") sites my experiences within the long history of women who have faced exactly the same kinds of marginalisations.
I understood "transition" as a kind of acceptance of a reality that has always been there, just a reframing of my self-image rather than a fundamental change in how I interact with the world. So discovering how many trans women didn't have childhoods like mine has been a bit of difficult experience, I've had to rework how I understand transition to make sense of it.
I now understand it like this: every "boy" enters the world without any particular idea of which kinds of behaviours are aligned with "manhood" and which with "womanhood". Childhood is the experience of pushing boundaries, seeing what happens, and adapting accordingly.
Every "boy" has likely had the experience of once doing something that aligns far more with "womanhood" rather than "manhood" (whether it be being softly-spoken and meek, crying over the suffering of others, calling out the misogyny of their peers, wearing a feminine item of clothing or make-up, expressing interest in a feminine hobby or piece of media, or anything else) and then being told such a behaviour is not an appropriate one for a boy, it's something girls do. The vast majority of boys will quickly learn and adapt. They will not feel any kind of internal struggle between their performance of masculinity and a deep desire to behave differently, they just think "Oh, ok" and go along with it.
Then there are the small number of "boys" who, in spite of being told it's inappropriate, continue to feel that deep desire to do whatever it was that was deemed feminine. These "boys" have two options:
They can keep doing the feminine behaviour, even as the social punishments, exclusion, bullying, etc, roll in. They will be under immense pressure to change their behaviour, but for whatever reason (perhaps autism boosting resistance to conforming to social norms) will just continue to do what they are told is "girly", often not even understanding why they should not be "girly" in the first place.
They can adopt a masculine mask, feigning no inclination towards the feminine behaviour even as they continue to feel it. This will confer certain superficial privileges, in the sense of avoiding the social punishments that come with "girliness", but at the severe mental cost of inauthenticity. Many autistic people who mask as allistic experience severe burnout when the mask has been up for too long, and so will it be for these "boys": inauthenticity and performance are so draining and make it impossible to live a full life.
If they keep performing even a small handful of behaviours that are socially read as "feminine", the "boys" in group (1) will experience misogyny from a very young age, and if they go on to transition will correctly assess their youth as a time when they lived as girls, being treated as girls, but without the language to describe it accurately until later. Transition is not so much a change in their behaviour as an acknowledgement of what their behaviour has always meant.
The equivalent "boys" in group (2) may avoid explicit misogyny for a long time, but, to use a phrase from gay and bi activists, "the closet is not a privilege". To be required to perform manhood to avoid punishment, even as you know it doesn't fit you, even as you really want to behave very differently, is not a "normal boy childhood". "Normal boys" do not suffer like this. Still, if they go on to transition and remove the mask, it will not be a mere perspective-shift but a major change in how they interact with the world.
To be a closeted trans girl is to be placed in an impossible bind: either be yourself and experience the most horrific social punishment, or mask and experience awful internal strife and self-hatred.
I think we can understand the diverse responses to the closet as a spectrum of an overarching whole, which is that none of us experienced anything like a normal boyhood, none of us were privileged by this experience, we all suffered heavily, and whether that suffering was internal, external, or both is a mere detail and not a major dividing line between us.
Fun fact for anyone who does this, being a misogynistic man isn't funny just because you're trans or you think the idea of treating trans women like women is inherently funny, how funny do you think she finds your "ironic" misogyny when you punch down on the women that don't have cis privilege over you
ok I may be cracking open a nuclear can of discourse worms but genuinely is it not like. easier for trans men to become cis-passing
like I'm sure higher wages help a lot, but mainly like I feel like I see and encounter so much more discussion from trans men who are able to go fully stealth than trans women who can. and I see plenty of trans men online who are very cis-passing, whereas I rarely ever see the same for trans women
like I've seen talk about how trans women are privileged because we're more represented in government, but I can't help but think there probably are some trans men in government, they're just understandably taking the opportunity available to them to be stealth, since being in government is a notoriously high-risk position and if you can help it it mitigates a lot of risk to not be openly trans
oh my god right, how could I forget, trans men start HRT on average significantly younger than trans women, I'm sure that's a significant factor
I am an older (over 35) trans man and it is legitimately shocking/disappointing to see how many younger trans men are latching onto 'transandrophobia truth.'
When I was growing up and transitioning, it was understood that trans women were more vulnerable to bigotry as just an observable fact. It was unspoken.
I have been hurt by transphobia sure but it was never because I was specifically FtM. What I mean by that is this -that people who hate trans men ALWAYS hate trans women too.
Yet I have met many cis people who don't mind trans men but LOATHE trans women, seeing us as 'quirky gender outlaws' while still viewing trans women as predatory men invading some 'sacred female space.'
Example: no one ever bothered me for presenting masculine things at work, even when my beard was too long for our work standard.
Yet the day my freshly-out trans femme coworker wore tights to work, her department manager pulled her aside within an hour of her clocking in and made her go home and change!
The cis girls were never bothered for wearing tights even if they were wearing colors/styles that were against technically against dress code.
The same HR lady who helped me change my legal name in our employee roll did nothing to help this girl when I reported the manager who singled her out. Even speaking up for her got me labeled as being 'dramatic.'
She quit within the week, it was awful. ( I am glad to report she got a better job and recently got her legal name change and is four years on E at this point! )
I've had to cut ties with many people over them saying weird shit about trans women to me, that job being one of those ties! I was there for five years but seeing what happened to the girl made me lose all my faith in their 'inclusive' claims, so I left.
If you don't want my trans women peers around, you don't get my trans masc self either! That's how it should be.
All trans men must practice zero tolerance for transmisogyny otherwise we can never expect trans girls/women to buy into claims of solidarity from us trans men. The world is coming at the girls from all sides, we shouldn't be adding onto their stress by repeating rainbow-flavored TERF talking points.
It says a lot that the public generally perceives us (trans guys) as ready to agree with the whole "lol trans women are freaks, amiright??" Bullshit.
The reputation is there because many trans men are too chickenshit to speak up for their sisters. At worst, they agree with the transmisogyny.
I have been trying to educate the younger men about why TME vs TMA is needed in trans discussions but it has been an obnoxiously uphill battle. Many do not want to listen.
Your page is a great resource for breaking down the aspects of transmisogyny that trans men miss or don't consider, thank you for putting it up. It gives me the language to dismantle transandrophobia arguments.
This issue is something older trans men need to get active in correcting this behavior. Trans men have to teach our younger bros to be better than this otherwise it will keep spreading like redpill shit did among cis dudes. The fact that so many trans women are doing the emotional labor of educating these buttheads isn't fair and I don't blame all of you trans femmes for being frustrated.
Sending this privately because I don't want to seem like I am stating my peace for clout.
You rock ✌️ and don't let the bastards get you down.
♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️ lots of love :)
the delicate art of cracking someone's egg honestly has a lot of parallels to trying to help a friend who you think might be in an abusive relationship
the egg prime directive is stupid as fuck because yes, you don't just assume based on incomplete information that your friend is in an abusive relationship and then try to force them out of it, but you don't just fucking do nothing either. you have to employ finesse
I think the word "transmedicalism" needs to be reserved for ideas that support giving authority over trans identity to medical institutions, actually.
The political project of trans self-determination can't be transmedicalist, no matter how much someone says "we need to prioritize access to medical transition," because increasing access in pretty much every real-world context is the same thing as attacking the authority of institutional gatekeepers.
Like when you're calling DIY advocates "transmeds" you have Lost The Fucking Plot. You have decided that "transmed" means "trans person whose vibes I don't like." Words actually need to mean things to be useful.
"you dont need hrt to be trans" some trans people need hrt or they will literally die
That one is particularly insidious because "you don't need" quickly gets twisted from "every trans person should get to determine for themselves how they want to approach their transition" to "hrt is superfluous for many trans people and so should only be provided to those who Really Really Need It" which is... the transmedicalist position.
I think the word "transmedicalism" needs to be reserved for ideas that support giving authority over trans identity to medical institutions, actually.
The political project of trans self-determination can't be transmedicalist, no matter how much someone says "we need to prioritize access to medical transition," because increasing access in pretty much every real-world context is the same thing as attacking the authority of institutional gatekeepers.
Like when you're calling DIY advocates "transmeds" you have Lost The Fucking Plot. You have decided that "transmed" means "trans person whose vibes I don't like." Words actually need to mean things to be useful.
Anyone who's never had to deal with trans healthcare in the gatekeeping model especially needs to put in work to learn this: What transmedicalists are advocating for, whether they understand it or not, is a system where a cis man with a history of sexually harassing patients determines if you're "trans enough" to transition.
I think the word "transmedicalism" needs to be reserved for ideas that support giving authority over trans identity to medical institutions, actually.
The political project of trans self-determination can't be transmedicalist, no matter how much someone says "we need to prioritize access to medical transition," because increasing access in pretty much every real-world context is the same thing as attacking the authority of institutional gatekeepers.
Like when you're calling DIY advocates "transmeds" you have Lost The Fucking Plot. You have decided that "transmed" means "trans person whose vibes I don't like." Words actually need to mean things to be useful.
Anyone who's never had to deal with trans healthcare in the gatekeeping model especially needs to put in work to learn this: What transmedicalists are advocating for, whether they understand it or not, is a system where a cis man with a history of sexually harassing patients determines if you're "trans enough" to transition.