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Another guy to be nominated for SBC President

UPDATE: It looks like Seth Dunn needs a new Nominator.

On June 14-15, the biggest choreographed[i] SBC non-event of the year will take place. The denomination will gather for its Annual Meeting, and accomplish very little. Of what little they do accomplish, they will elect a new President of the denomination. Now, the average pewsitter probably has no idea that the denomination of which they are a part even has a President.[ii] Despite the bogus boast of having 16 million members, a teeny, tiny fraction of them will send representatives to St. Louis to pass resolutions that have no impact whatsoever in their church, and elect a President who can serve for one year and can re-up for a second one-year term.

This has not only been an interesting campaign season for those running to be POTUS, but also for those seeking to be SBC President. For one thing, there is much more campaigning than usual occurring. For another thing, the two primary nominees for the office, J.D. Greear and Steve Gaines, have come to represent what one either loves or hates about the Southern Baptist Convention. A third guy, David Crosby, has actually stuck to tradition and not bothered to campaign aside from answering questions for various Baptist blogs and news outlets that ask him the obligatory questions out of duty and desire to look unbiased given their interest in covering the hoopla surrounding the other two candidates.

Overlooked in all this, but certainly appropriate for this circus year in SBC Presidential campaigning, is the candidacy of layperson Seth Dunn, who is to be nominated at the convention for the office. Unfortunately, he hasn’t received much traction so far, being that he isn’t a celebrity pastor. This itself affirms one of his points about the SBC. In any case, in an effort to be fair when the respected outlets haven’t been, I have decided to offer him this platform for a Q & A, such as it is.

For full disclosure, I agree with very little of what he says below. I believe the SBC needs to be intentional from the President to the Trustees on down in promoting real racial unity and diversity in the SBC, and not mere tokenism. I also think the IMB model is often contrary to the instructions Jesus gave about moving out from the center (Acts 1:8), in which Christendom is advanced by forming robust communities of faith expanding its territory. There are other disagreements as well, but I am supporting him running for SBC President because it is a nice change of pace. Seth Dunn bothers people. One of his professors at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary affectionately referred to him as a troublemaker. He apparently caused a “stir” at FBC Woodstock one time. I like troublemakers. They often say what needs to be said.

Many people have said of Seth they agree with some or most of what he says, but don’t like the way he says it. I’m the opposite. I don’t agree with much of what he says, but I like the way he says it.

Below are my questions and his answers.

Me: I wouldn't call your campaign “negative,” but why are you so critical about the SBC structures as they are now? What do people need to think about that they are not thinking about in regards to these issues? Seth: I think my campaign may seem negative or critical to some because of the current tone at the top of the Southern Baptist Convention. SBC President Ronnie Floyd recently wrote, “Refuse disunity within our ranks! There is nothing biblical or godly relating to creating disunity.” He is also reporting that God is “clearly” revealing certain things to him. Since at least 1997, he’s been making prophecies about spiritual revival in America. However, since that time, the moral decline in the United States seems to have gotten worse. This is decline took place despite the efforts and massive spending of NAMB and the ERLC. However, if anyone (like me) comes forth to criticize the leadership and what the SBC is doing, they are instantly doubting the man giving prophecy from God and interfering with “unity”. To question the leadership is to question God himself! It’s creates “ungodly” unity. I don’t buy that at all.

I consider Bob Dylan to be America’s greatest poet. There’s an old Dylan song entitled With God on Our Side. In the opening stanza, Dylan reminisces about growing up in Midwestern America. He sings, “I’s taught and brought up there the laws to abide and that the land that I live in has God on its side.” He then goes on to point out several incidents in American history that indicate that God, in fact, may not be on the country’s side. The song is a protest about the foolishness of not questioning the platforms and agendas of those in leadership. As a Southern Baptist in our educational system, I’ve been taught about the importance of giving to all of our SBC entities and how great they all are. However, I’ve never seen much criticism of them from leadership. It’s as if I’m not supposed to question anything, and if I do, it needs to be questioned in secret instead of our in the blogosphere for everyone to see.

Our Cooperative Giving program is almost 100 years old; I don’t think it’s the most effective method of funding missions. It diverts money that could go to the foreign mission field or stay in state conventions to expensive, ineffective, and sometimes unaccountable entities like NAMB and the ERLC. Yet, people don’t seem to pay attention to this because the Cooperative Program is pushed as a panacea administered by modern day prophets of God. I think if churches who are so used to just sending money in every month to the CP would stop and take a look at how the entities are structured and run, they’d support change and restructuring. People need to stop and think about efficiency and effectiveness. “Because we say so” is not an acceptable answer for supporting every SBC entity. We’re called to be stewards. To me, it just seems like churches are funding certain things and barely paying attention to where their money goes.

Me: Even though the deck is stacked against you, what do you consider a win, if you are not elected SBC President? Seth: I’m a very logical person so it’s hard for me to say that anything other than an electoral victory on the floor of the convention is a “win.” However, there are other issues at stake and there are quite a few things at which I and my supporters can “win”. There are a lot of good ideas out there and they don’t have to come from well-connected megachurch pastors. There are a lot of competent leaders out there and they don’t have to come from multi-million dollar multi-site megachurches. If other Southern Baptists consider my platform and see me out there competing for the nominations and say, “Why not me?” that’s a win. There is an illusion that the only real choice is between various megapastors. That’s not true. I’d like to see 10 or more guys run next year. I’d like to see all of them putting out campaign websites like mine and putting for their ideas. To borrow a concept from economic thought, competition makes the marketplace better. The convention can be a marketplace of ideas. It’s not a very good marketplace if the only choices are “ask Jesus into your heart” megachurch pastor and “don’t ask Jesus into your heart.” megachurch pastor. I don’t think our local churches need help telling people how to get saved. We have that covered. They need options for more effective and wise cooperative giving. That’s what my platform offers. That’s what many other platforms could offer if other men had the courage and boldness to challenge the status quo. It’s a win if they take that challenge in Phoenix and beyond. At the very least, I want to start conversations. Me: Racial unity has been an issue among the other candidates. From the horrifically evil slave-owning origins of the SBC to the slightly less wicked and embarrassingly shameful racial tokenism we've seen in the SBC lately, even from Gaines and Greear (look at the church staff pages on their church websites here and here), and the abysmal track record of racial diversity among faculty and students at SBTS and SEBTS, and those employed at the ERLC, how are you going to lead the SBC to true racial unity and diversity? Seth: I don’t think it’s the job of the President of the Southern Baptist Convention to lead people to racial unity and diversity. That’s the role of local pastors. I also don’t think it’s a feasible goal for an SBC President. I’m a proponent of what economist Thomas Sowell calls “the unconstrained vision.” According to this way of thinking, an intelligentsia at the top of society can’t know “the right thing” to do and make everyone do it. As a Christian, I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He testifies to the truth of scripture. In scripture, the Apostles have told the church “the right thing.” In the church, Paul writes, there is neither Jew nor Gentile but we are all one in Christ Jesus. The Apostle Matthew reports a commission from our Lord to take the gospel to people of all ethnicities. It’s just plain not Christian to exclude people based upon racial differences. At the same time, it doesn’t make sense to contrive racial inclusivity for “diversity” sake. We certainly can’t make the United States, as a whole, less racist. It’s full of lost people! It we lead those people to Christ, racial unity amongst them should follow. It will follow as they join local churches, loved, and lead by their own local pastors.

I strongly believe that unity has to happen on its own. If the SBC keeps proclaiming sound doctrine, God’s people who happen to have black skin may leave the TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar crowds and join with the SBC. I’d sure hate for them to come and find TD Jakes in LifeWay, though. As far as the ERLC goes, I want to shut it down. No one of any color should work their support by Southern Baptist money that is better spend on evangelism. The stated job of the SBC President is to appoint committee members. I don’t care what color someone is. If they will help me shut down LifeWay and the ERLC, I’ll gladly join hands with them and get to work. Me: Why do you think the Southern Baptist Convention, and Evangelicalism in general, mirrors secular culture in its obsession with celebrity? Why is this bad for the SBC to continue promoting those with name recognition? Are they more or less or just as qualified than rank and file pastors, theologians, etc. in your opinion? Seth: I’m not a sociologist, I’m accountant and theologian. So, I’ll answer from the perspective of the latter two. People like money and people like idols. What’s the name of America’s most successful celebrity show? American Idol. It made lots of money in its day and drew lots of interests. Churches with giant buildings to fill up and pay for have taken notice of such successes. Trying to fill seats by playing on people’s idols is a dangerous game…one which American evangelicalism is losing. It’s time to stop playing it. The leadership books promoted in our convention such as Pastors Handbook by John Bisagno and Being Leaders by Aubrey Malphurs literally made me feel ill when I read them. They were plainly and unashamedly worldly. Why are they being promoted? I think because these men can draw numbers.

There’s nothing wrong with having name recognition or even having a big church. I do think there is something wrong with blindly trusting someone just because he has name recognition and a big church. Everyone can make mistakes or use bad judgment. I think we have a tendency to see mega leaders as “too big to fail”. That’s dangerous. I can’t think of a time in history when it was wise to follow a charismatic “too big to fail” leader without question. The only man I know who can’t fail is Jesus. Me: Here is a blitz of related questions. You want to reevaluate the need for six seminaries, dump Lifeway, NAMB, the ERLC, and give more to missions. Why is elimination your primary platform? Do you think those other entities interfere with missions? Is that not the same kind of bogus argument as saying that kids are starving somewhere because Seth Dunn doesn’t send them his dinner leftovers? Is the IMB even all that effective when, on average, missionaries only baptize 45 or so people in a year (and falling). Youth groups for two weeks a summer in places like Haiti and South America do as good or better than that for less money, as do other missions organizations. Seth: It’s not as if Russell Moore has locked David Platt in a closet. I’m certainly not arguing that the ERLC, for example, is interfering with missions. To address this issue I will again take an economic perspective. Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses. If I have $4M, I can spend it on anything I want. If political lobbying is more important to me than foreign missions, I’ll spend it on political lobbying. That’s what the SBC does with the ERLC; it spends $4M on political lobbying that could be spent elsewhere. If Southern Baptists as a whole reconsidered our structure, I don’t think we’d do that anymore.

Now, I’ll turn your argument around. The IMB isn’t interfering with youth groups going to Haiti and South America for two weeks. Churches can choose not to send money to the IMB and instead invest in youth short term mission trips. Personally, I wouldn’t do that. Many of the places that the IMB works are deadly dangerous. Is that where we want to send youth groups? Furthermore, short term missions can be an industry. One of my seminary classmates, a man named Aaron Brewer, once told me he met a homeless man who told him that he’d been saved hundreds of times “for chicken.” I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that many of those Haitians to which you refer get baptized every two weeks, every time a new youth group comes down to give them goods.

I’m an auditor; I just don’t take numbers, especially baptism numbers, for granted. I’d like to see verified figures on those youth group salvations. I actually trust the 45 reported by IMB. It sounds too low to be faked. Furthermore, I hope these short term youth mission numbers you report are better than the youth salvation numbers reported by local churches. Some of these kids, all grown up, can’t be found in our churches. Furthermore, when Johnny Hunt is promoting “missions cruises” to Jamaica with John Hagee, I’ll throw my lot in with the IMB missionary out amongst hostile peoples. Me: What is the clear alternative to Cooperative Program way of funding things in the SBC? How would it work and what changes would be necessary for the typical small Southern Baptist church in the way they want to cut checks to SBC entities and structures? Seth: An alternative that is available now is direct giving. Anyone can log on to the IMB website or a seminary website and send it an online donation. Also, anyone can just send in a check. Instead of just sending a monthly check to the state convention through the CP, the church could send several checks to the state conventions and national entities it supports. Another way to do things would be line item giving. The church could send in an online payment and designate the percentage of the gift to apply to each entity. This would be simple and I’m pretty sure if church finance people had to actively type in a percentage of a gift to give to the ERLC instead of the IMB, our lobbying crew would shrink really fast. Me: Thanks for your time. Have the last word. Add whatever else you think needs to be said. Seth: I want people to know I’m not running for SBC President to further my career or sell books. I’m not in the religion business in any way. I don’t draw an income from a Christian vocation. I’m not claiming God has anointed me as “the man for the job.” I am claiming that God has given me certain spiritual gifts and blessed me with certain abilities. I love Jesus and I would like the opportunity to put these gifts and abilities to work helping my fellow Southern Baptists work together and spread the gospel. I think the “Simple SBC” platform is the best way to carry this out.

Lastly, thank you for helping to give me a voice. It’s a blessing to have the opportunity to answer your questions.

[i] See Point 7

[ii] Some Southern Baptists have no idea they are even Southern Baptists. Guess what, if you are a member of The Summit Church in North Little Rock, or the Church at Rock Creek in Little Rock, big surprise, you are a Southern Baptist and not “non-denominational,” as many of you ignorantly claim to be.

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