solangelo/pjo side blog

main blog is cordelia---rose ||| https://archiveofourown.org/users/CordeliaRose (also contains 18+ content)

[phrollaeli]

three days in infirmary doodle

@solangeloweek day 6: infirmary [i think lol]

[cordeliaandthecocoapuffs]

I love that you were just like 'aha, a chance to talk about a fallacy I have found in this famous thing :)' and the assessor was just writing 'wildly autistic holy shit'

i was very pleased that someone was finally listening to the points i raised and remarked as much to my mother who said “they wanted you to keep talking so they could see how autistic you are” and, much like the freed cave dwellers, my sense of reality was shattered

[cordeliaandthecocoapuffs]

Sorry, you can't just say that there's an entire paragraph in your autism assessment dedicated to Plato's Allegory of the Cave, and not expand on that!

i was asked if i had learnt about anything interesting lately (as a way to ease me into conversation i assume) so i told them about how i’d read about plato’s allegory of the cave and while i grasped the greater metaphorical meaning behind it and admired the creativity of the allegory i was greatly perturbed that anyone could believe that it would be possible to chain someone to a cave wall since birth without severe physical and psychological consequences and that as a pioneer of logic through his dialectical methods it was quite astounding that plato hadn’t thought to question this

i distinctly remember the assessor frantically scrabbling for their pen somewhere around sentence three

[that-gay-jedi]

[someoneq]

image description: the I bring a sort of vibe meme template. A black person with a cap on leans over a porch railing and looks out. Text above their head has been edited to read I bring a sort of "extremely slow writer" vibe to ao3 that I don't really like /end id

[cordeliaandthecocoapuffs]

Yk I never watched teen wolf but I wanted to read your older fics bc I like your writing style, low and behold not even 2 paragraphs in I see a Greek mythology reference (specifically of odyssey, oedipus and Achilles) which I found very funny considering what Ik you from 😭

oh brother let me tell you one of my first ever special interests was greek mythology especially but also ancient greek philosophy and culture. it worms its way into everything in my life like a parasite. when i was 7 a new teacher at my school saw me reading a book about greek mythology and tried to be friendly by saying “oh have you ever heard of the odyssey” and i was like “yes i prefer it to the iliad” and then turned back to my book because they clearly had nothing new to tell me. there’s an entire paragraph in my autism diagnosis report dedicated to plato’s allegory of the caves. imagine the movie it follows but it’s just references to ancient greece and that’s my life

[computerbeep-deactivated2025052]

im not arguing with a dogboy go fetch

[pthalomars]

[pthalomars]

[vvvounds]

[iphigeniacomplex]

[girl in a low cut top voice] i just dont know what it is but everyone is being sooo nice to me today….[grows grave and guarded] they’re conspiring against my reign and they think me a fool

[phrollaeli]

three days in infirmary doodle

@solangeloweek day 6: infirmary [i think lol]

[redandpointy]

I wish you would write a fic where...

Send me an anymous (or not) summary of the fic you wish I would write. (maybe I will write a tidbit)

[thejudgingtrash]

My unpopular opinion: Chiron is a horrible teacher, protector, whatever. He’s as bad dumbledor. He often manipulates children and put them in danger? Also is RR really trying to tell me not one single demigod from before percy’s generation made it to adulthood? Not even demigods of minor gods? If not then why haven’t we heard from them, why weren’t they called to fight in the war so that literal children didn’t have to? I have more but I’m not brave enough to post them lol

Fuck, I gotta check my asks more often. Too much stuff laying around and oh please people! Send your stuff in! Don’t be shy! It’s so interesting to see what’s on your mind! Let’s have that conversation and ask me!! :D I mean a bunch of people agreed and disagreed with my stances (Part 1/Part 2), let’s see how I feel about yours!

Anyway HERE WE GO BOYS! LET’S GO LESBIANS LET’S GO! 

LET’S HAVE THAT WHOLE DAMN ESSAY!

Chiron is clearly a self insert from Riordan. I mean come on…

That’s a solid Chiron if I see one. Which is pretty ironic as Chiron’s the shitty teacher who we all know and love. Got something to admit, Riordan? You as a former teacher? HMM?

Hiding incompetence under the disguise of the gentle old wise teacher is definitely something that Dumbledore and Chiron share. Chiron is the old centaur who lived for aeons and helped out the most famous heroes of their times, so shouldn’t modern times be considered to be an easier job for him? He’s barely present, highkey vague and has absolutely no problems with tossing children literally out into the open across the entire fucking US and A to clean the gods’ bathroom messes.

Had the heroes been in their 20s like in the original myths (or even older) it would’ve made more sense to let them find their own ways. It would be rude,  but somewhat okay. You could expect adults to find the way and connect the dots. But this is just messing with a bunch of 12 year olds because you can at this point.

Chiron is that supposed sweet teacher that just fucks up. We all had one, you know the one. Seems gentle and nice and but has clearly chosen the wrong job. Don’t know if that’s the trauma of living that long and/or seeing kids dying constantly that’s hitting him in the back of the head.

I have the feeling that people are projecting their teacher fantasies on to him just like step-father fantasies that include Paul. Because we want a guide who is trustworthy, we want an authoritative figure that we can share our concerns with and who guides us to solid solutions without betraying our trust.

But like I said, he’s essentially sending out kids to deathly missions and encouraging deep traumas. Yes, we can partially blame Chiron, but most of the blame goes to the gods who enable and encourage this weird dynamic. Would all of them straight up cut the bullshit and mostly resolve their own issues without using their children as pawns, it would’ve been easier for everyone involved. Additionally, there are many kids in camp to keep busy, look after and care for. I don’t know how many there were pre-TLO but I’d assume the number was in the hundreds? Of course, in larger cabins are camp counsellors that help out and guide next to camp schedules. But since Percy’s the only kid in the Poseidon cabin I guess that thought went south? Percy being the special kid would actually mean that there should be a focus on him unless you’re going for the “I’m neutral” spiel. Chiron knew from day one that Percy was walking Poseidon seed, come on.

Also like I somewhat implied, seeing people die left and right might have impacted Chiron to make him feel indifferent/despressed (could also be a stretch, who knows). Which isn’t an excuse, but might explain some takes. Explaining the same stuff for millennia in its essentials is probably getting tiring.

I think this is the third time that I mentioned it on my blog but showing and telling are the most powerful story telling concepts/fundamentals and you see Rowling and Riordan constantly failing at that which is concerning. Instead of Chiron (or Dumbledore) just simply getting down to the point and telling and explaining stuff briefly, he only eludes, vaguely formulates and it is simply confusing especially for a child in a brand new environment who just lost his mother (if we’re speaking about TLT). This does nothing but add more stress in such a fragile situation especially when a new and bigger threat makes its way.

There’s also the discussion on how much of Greek myth Percy actually gets. He has the basic/ obvious knowledge which many tend to forget. He doesn’t come in with no knowledge. He had Latin classes back at the academy, he studies with Annabeth, he knows some of the monsters. What he simply doesn’t know, is the magic of it all. That is the most confusing part for him.

The actual magic is not explained, which it doesn’t have to be in all of its entirety, but needs to be addressed somehow and gradually.

Percy asking a simple question like how the camp stays sunny and covered 24/7 and how the wardens work and Chiron casually sitting here like you a stoopid one

doesn’t help.

What many people forget: Magic doesn’t erase logic. Even in a magical setting, unless clearly stated, there has to be some kind of logic to connect the dots. It doesn’t need to be a clear cut A to B, but it should be comprehensible for both the readers and the characters in a particular situation. And that’s just not happening for Percy as the character. This also sets up the premise of Percy being ”stupid” which he isn’t. He is surrounded by incompetent teachers and staff that don’t bother telling him how things work and assume that he’ll just manage.

Yeah. Both Dumbledore and Chiron are awfulness in a sweet calm disguise.

Onto part two of the ask. I have had so many talks with people on that exact problem. It simply boils down to one issue:

Rick Riordan‘s inconsistency in world building and setting. The story telling doesn’t make any sense.

So kids are dying like flies before 18 but many are also super famous and in powerful positions? Many are historical figures that made it well over 18? Make that make sense. Also was WW2 supposed to be kicked off by some 12 year olds with that logic? The biggest man made catastrophe of the modern era boiled down to a bunch of fighting kids? No. We all know it. Just simply no. I actually don’t mind the WW2 background but Riordan should’ve given it another thought and be a bit more sensitive…? Like the whole fascist gang being team Hades? Uhh… sure…. nope.

Also the same logic applies to Civil War? You’re telling me a bunch of kids were supposed to have started this stance? Who was for and who was against slavery then? What in the actual fuck? Using children as child soldiers to stand in for these large complex historical issues that stretch over years and show many of humanity’s horrifying sides is just….eh.

No. This whole thing about campers dying as soon as they reach the magic number of 18 are either bedtime stories to scare the kids or toughen them up orrrr my guess, Riordan actually managed yet again to fuck up his own lore.

It’s the same logic with New Rome. You have a whole city full of adults but have a few kids run that bitch? You did your ten years of service as a child soldier and then do one of these?

As if adults magically exit this world. Like is that the reason why Percy’s been 17 for a whole damn decade? Because otherwise he gotta hand riptide in and all of the boys scout medals he has collected so far? Adults would’ve had the experience and expertise to win those fights but it would break the magic and charm of the books that a bunch of kids are saving the world for the younger demographic. Let’s do not forget that the targeted audience of the books are middle schoolers. Makes somewhat sense with PJO but with HOO Riordan really shot himself in the leg. He should’ve matured the OG characters at least.

(Also speaking about the actual myths again. A good chunk of them died in their 20s/30s/40s. Odysseus guided as an old man. The heroes weren’t twelve and dipping by the age of 16. The Trojan war went on for 10 years for example. So whereas the real Perseus lived a longer life and had a somewhat happy ending in comparison to his peers, he wasn’t the only one that made it into adulthood.)

Riordan mixing up his own lore is just a shame. Yes, it’s human and he already gets a lot of flag for other stuff. I also get it as a writer with my fanfic where I really have to scroll up to search tiny details that I’ve embedded and not noted down. Perhaps it’s my inner capitalist speaking, but for I’m way more forgiving towards a free product, a gift like a fanfic, rather than something I’ve paid actual money for when it comes to this. The process of publishing a book is large. You mean to tell me that there was no editor at Disney that bothered to fact check? Riordan got a check from us all and doesn’t even bother looking up his own stuff. A little bit more effort, Ricardo. Please. You have an entire damn wiki you could use to check for free if you’re too lazy to read your own books/don’t use authors softwares. Like what?

It’s stupid. You know it, I know it. And as you can see, I fully agree with you.

[glarello]

hi little meow meow what r u so meow meow for even

[thegoldenappleofdiscord]

Idk if you’ve gotten this ask before, but is there anything you would have changed if you wrote pjo/hoo/toa? And how would you have written it?

never gotten this ask before! and oh man, yeah, there are some things i would change. i wouldn't call myself someone who does analysis on their favorite media (at least i don't do it very often) i just read/watch and enjoy, unless there's something that seriously strikes me as Kind of Very Weird. half the time i don't mind occasional bad writing if i enjoy the media very much, which is the case with pjo, but again, there are some things that were odd to me lol. keep in mind it's been a while since i've reread so these are just things i remember vividly as being something i very much didn't like/understand.

percy jackson and the olympians:

that whole 'entwining history' with pjo thing felt weird to me: like with harriet tubman being called a child of hermes? for one, it feels unnecessary, and two, it feels as though all the things she's done, all of her bravery, wit, courage, are being attributed to her demigod status, as hermes is the god of travelers, cunning, roads, etc. it feels insensitive and not handled very well. there's also a blurb that mentions that hitler was a child of hades, that world war II was a conflict of the big three, and that the civil war was a roman vs greek conflict - again, these all just feel so insensitive to the actual historical events that occurred, ascribing all that violence and catastrophe to a squabble between the children of the big three when the actual causes of these events were so much more complicated and deep-rooted. i believe it was an attempt at trying to see where the gods fit in the modern tapestry, but i don't think actual history needs to be bastardized in order to write smth like that. there's also the issue with the "western civilization" narrative portrayed in the story, but i don't feel like i could even adequately sum up the issue here.

the fix-it: just. don't have the historical stuff? the insertion of demigods in wwII is supposed to show the destruction of these big three children in battle, and the later prophecy would supposedly give more reasoning as to why the big three can't have children. but why not just have the prophecy recited before wwII and cut out the 'oh demigods partook in wwII" nonsense? [before the war, after the diangelos are born] the gods have already witnessed wars that actual demigods took part in, such as the trojan war, and saw how terrible those effects were. and there were hardly any big three kids in that battle that were main players. if demigods who weren't of big three ancestry caused that much destruction, wouldn't that be apt enough reason, along with the ominous prophecy, not to give birth to any kids? especially because greek mythology is rife with sons trying to overturn their fathers, and said fathers trying to overturn that future. that itself gives perfect context for why this child-making ban would be introduced, and why zeus especially would enforce it (ex. attempted murder of the diangelos) because. he's literally the "son who overturned his father" (kronos.)

luke having romantic feelings for annabeth: why. why. when i was reading the series i always assumed he had spared annabeth because of their familial ties, but in staff of hermes percy describes their relationship as "luke later gaining feelings for her" which...why? lmao

the fix-it: luke does love annabeth, but as a younger sister, and it is that sibling love that makes him spare her all the times he did, and inevitably helps him break from kronos' hold. i think it's much more meaningful, makes more sense [ties into the threeway "family" conflict between thalia, luke, and annabeth], and obviously isn't weird to think about it like the aforementioned canon dynamic.

heroes of olympus:

portrayal of poc characters: now, i'm going to be honest, when i first read hazel's description, i never thought there was anything wrong with it. my rationale for this was "oh, golden eyes because she controls minerals" however many people have brought up how this feeds into the exotic poc caricature. while many characters have oddly colored eyes, i haven't done enough in depth research on the history of written poc characters and their applied descriptors, i don't want to minimize what could be a genuine issue. on another note, while i don't claim to be an expert on native american culture and tradition, i am aware of the numerous claims that native american pjo fans have made about piper, especially her wearing feathers in her hair. i think in her case it's very much cut and dry; rick didn't do his research regarding her heritage, at least in the earlier books.

the fix-it: research.

portrayal of medea (and other mythological characters): in the lost hero, medea is portrayed as a "blood-thirsty psycho," all while ignoring the terrible way jason (from the mythos, not Grace) treated her and the hardships that she went through. and that is my point - pjo does subvert some tropes, like hades being the villain [although given the fact that it is also canon his children were on the axis side, well.] but many times it falls into the same overused narratives, like medusa being characterized as the killer when in reality she was born a gorgon and often visited by heroes who wanted to kill her for glory [the version where she was a priestess was written by ovid, and ovid seems to have a passionate hatred for athena and women in general, as can be seen in his retellings.] i can understand this in pjo, but i think heroes of olympus truly would have benefited from more nuanced characterizations.

the fix it: research!

di angelo's Otherness + the ooc behavior of characters: one detail i always remember is how leo and piper behaved around nico, and the apparent...teasing? bullying? that went on behind his back - at least, it's alluded to that they both make some not-so-nice remarks about him. and it doesn't make sense to me, especially when leo and piper are both victims of bullying, have been judged for their appearance, etc. leo's literal first scene is him making fun of a bully [dylan] to jason, and in the mark of athena, when he and hazel see the vision of sammy making fun of one of hazel's bullies, leo mentions that he used to do that all the time. i think having leo and piper behave this way was supposed to emphasize nico's "not-belonging" within the argo II environment, but why at the sake of their characters? additionally, the scene were he does make those comments seems another way to frame jason as nico's "ally" [which the fandom loves to do while ignoring jason's actions towards nico in general, but that's a whole other thing lmao.]

the fix-it: don't include that post-cupid jason + leo + piper scene. there was already a layer of distrust between that group and nico, which is enough to emphasize a divide.

the detriment of caleo on leo's character arc: romance is everywhere it doesn't need to be in this second series. everyone is with someone, for better or for worse. however, while relationships like jasper and frazel are either unnecessary or badly developed, there is no relationship, i think, that is as detrimental to a character's arc as caleo is to leo. i won't be doing a deep-dive, as there are other posts on this site that delve into the issue better than i could, but i wanted to list it as one of my biggest gripes - it basically takes all his struggles with self and decides to give him a girlfriend as a shoddy fix-all.

the fix-it: there are a lot of ways you could go about rewriting this, but i'd have calypso be freed after the second titanomachy, join the hunters as her sister did - that way she could retain her immortality - and travel the world with them. khione would blast leo off the ship - maybe he gets injured and has to find his way back, thinking all the while that his friends have probably moved on, but he finds that they're all still there, desperately searching. he tells them they should have moved on, and they'd say that they aren't leaving him behind, that he's important to them more than to the mission, etc. although i think for this to work other dynamics would need to be tweaked - [no jasper after the first book; focus is instead on strengthening the lost trio's friendship throughout the rest of the book.]

the ending + gaea: i think it's a general fandom consensus that the ending for blood of olympus left much to be desired. the final battle felt so rushed and...didn't make much sense to me? how do you lift a being who is the earth...out of the earth...? and that's the main issue with me, honestly. how do you defeat the earth? there was that whole "scatter her essence" blurb at the end of the book, but that also didn't make much sense to me. gaea as a villain seemed like a bad choice because a.) her rising up to destory the olympians because of their treatment of her children is a repeat of the gigantomachy, just as pjo is a second titanomachy. it feels like the same narrative is being recycled, and b.) because she is the earth. a primordial being. i don't know how to re-hash this, but it's simply unrealistic to have a band of teenagers defeat an entity as old and powerful in a handful of chapters.

the fix-it: different villain entirely! at least, that's what i would do, because i can't think of a way to destroy the earth that doesn't involve actively poisoning it/j. there are a plethora of interesting mythological figures who would make for good antagonists, and also shed light on issues besides the ones pjo already touched on.

trials of apollo: i have not reread this series in a long while, and unlike the others can't remember as vividly the details, but the thing i remember bothering me the most occured in the dark prophecy, in which two lesbian hunters of artemis describe how they had to leave the hunters on account of their relationship. @solisaureus has an in-depth post about this which effectively sums up the issues and goes into other problems with the hunters, and i think they break it down better than i do, so go check that out!

the sun and the star:

pacing: i enjoyed the book but did feel like it was paced weirdly - for a book all about a couple journeying into tartarus, they only entered tartarus during the last hundred pages. i think this contributes to the bad fight at the ending, too, as it felt very rushed. i think having the couple spend a lot of time in the underworld was supposed to establish will's discomfort and the later conflict, but three hundred pages is a bit much. i also find it difficult to believe that nyx, the literal definition of night, was defeated so quickly, or defeated at all. i did enjoy her as a villain more than i did gaea, but i had the same problem of being dissatisfied with the ending battle.

the fix-it: i feel like having the villain be akhlys would make sense. as the goddess of misery, she might want to convince nico that grief is eternal, inescapable, and that he may as well succumb to a life of tragedy. buuut that would also mean no cocoa puffs. and i like the cocoa puffs - so this one is a bit up in the air for me!

plague will: this is personal to me because i love this headcanon and when it became canon i was all "oh, woah" but then it was. never brought up again lmao.

the fix-it: have him use it earlier in the book [perhaps discover it when he goes out by himself] and try to suppress it, but eventually learn that his negative emotions + memories - "darkness" - shouldn't be suppressed, but rather released; that those aren't things to fear. or at least have him talk about it later with nico and try to sort out what their existence means for him. [there are other problems with tsats that people did bring up, but i don't actually have issues with them - i.e. "the first kiss," "coming-out scene," continuity errors, etc. the coming out scene is especially controversial, but my only issue with that is that nico asked out will without considering will's closeted status. the continuity errors aren't really something to dedicate a whole bullet point to, seeing as rick's timeline is eternally convoluted and just not worth getting irritated over at this point.]

if you want me to elaborate on any of these in a second post i can! thanks for the ask!

[solisaureus]

Everything I Hate About Rick Riordan's Interpretation of the Hunters of Artemis

I believe that Rick Riordan has good intentions and that he has done a lot to promote inclusivity in YA fantasy, both at a fictional representation level and at a level of authorial diversity. However, he has fumbled the ball numerous times in his writing, and my biggest complaint against him is his handling of the Hunters of Artemis. So I wrote an essay on everything I hate about it.

Part I: Mythological context

Artemis is the ancient Greek goddess of the hunt, nature, unwed maidens, animals, archery, childbirth, and other domains. She is known for keeping a company of nymphs and inhabiting the wilderness with them, giving rise to Riordan’s concept of the Hunters of Artemis.

Artemis is also famous for being a virgin goddess, vowing never to marry. The concepts of virginity and marriage in ancient times and the understanding we have of them today are quite different. Here is an excerpt describing Artemis (and Athena’s) status as virgin goddesses from Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves: Women in Classical Antiquity by Sarah Pomeroy:

“The Artemis of classical Greece probably evolved from the concept of a primitive mother goddess, and both she and her sister Athena were considered virgins because they had never submitted to a monogamous marriage. Rather, as befits mother goddesses, they had enjoyed many consorts. Their failure to marry, however, was misinterpreted as virginity by succeeding generations of men who connected loss of virginity only with conventional marriage. Either way, as mother goddess or as virgin, Artemis retains control over herself; her lack of permanent connection to a male figure in a monogamous relationship is the keystone of her independence.”

Note how this differs from modern Western concepts of marriage and virginity. Marriage, for a woman of antiquity, means a monogamous, submissive union with a man. A virgin, in the context of Artemis and her Hunters, is an unmarried, independent woman, not a woman who does not desire sex or romantic love. It is likely that Riordan, as a classics scholar, knows this.

Artemis was known to keep companions in the myths, both men and women. Orion is the most famous male companion of Artemis, and in some iterations of the myth he is a lover of Artemis. Another notable figure is the nymph Callisto, who was exiled from the Hunters after Zeus raped and impregnated her in Hesiod’s Astronomia. (According to Hyginus’s recounting of this story, Zeus seduced Callisto by disguising himself as Artemis, insinuating that Callisto and Artemis had been lovers). I assume this is where Riordan got the idea that becoming “smitten with boys” (The Titan’s Curse, p. 38) gets you kicked out of the Hunters.

Another known devotee to Artemis was Hippolytus. In the play Hippolytus by Euripides, the eponymous character (the son of Theseus with the Amazon Hippolyta), was enamored with the hunt and had no desire for marriage, worshipping Artemis as his patron. His disinterest in romance offended Aphrodite, and she cursed Theseus’s wife Phaedra to fall in love with Hippolytus. The rest of the play does not end well for either of them, but the important thing is that ancient Greek plays did acknowledge unmarried male devotees of Artemis. This, combined with the myth of Orion, confounds Riordan’s choice to interpret the Hunters as exclusively female.

Part II: Feminist separatism

So, given the existence of Orion and Hippolytus, where does the anti-men thing come from? One possible explanation is the story of Actaeon, who spied on Artemis while she was bathing, and was harshly punished for his indecency when Artemis transformed him into a deer and set his hunting dogs on him. But mythologically, the Hunters were not exclusive to women, and in a modern context, I think Riordan’s interpretation of them as such is inappropriate and irresponsible.

In the 1970s, there was a movement to form communities of exclusively lesbians who seek to escape patriarchal society by forming insular colonies, known as lesbian separatism. On a surface level, it might seem empowering — many lesbians and other women seek to escape the male gaze and heteronormative expectations, and making their own exclusive all-female social communities may seem like a utopian escape. But this movement was notoriously transphobic, with these lesbian separatist communities explicitly rejecting transgender women and relying on gender bioessentialism to determine who was “really” a woman or a lesbian. It was gatekeeping in its most radical form (Separatism by Andrew Matzner).

So for Riordan’s Hunters to model feminist separatism (except with celibate women instead of lesbians) is a similar TERF trap. It is never clarified in canon whether the female requirement for membership includes either closeted or out transgender women, or if the Hunters expel transgender men who come out after joining the Hunters. Given that the Hunters — a community of people who seek to reject conventional patriarchal society — would likely appeal to queer people of all ages, genders, and sexual identities, why is it exclusive to adolescent celibate girls?

Part III: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

In The Dark Prophecy, Riordan supplements the lore of his Hunters with a bombshell: female Hunters who fall in love with each other are expelled for breaking their oath of virginity. Emmie, who is Hemithea of ancient myth and had been a part of the Hunters for millennia, was excommunicated with her lover Jo, and they form a new life together in Indianapolis. This is described as a voluntary, heartwarming departure and a show of the two women’s commitment to each other.

The positive spin that Riordan puts on this story is shocking, considering the fact of the matter is that these characters were forced to choose between their family and their queer love. Losing one’s family, especially one that had been Emmie’s whole life for literal ages, as a result of coming out is a homophobic tragedy any way you look at it. How are we supposed to think positively of Artemis or the Hunters after seeing them cast out their own because of their lesbian relationship? Especially when LGBTQ homelessness as a result of this exact trauma is such a prominent problem?

Hell, in The Sun and the Star, Nico di Angelo expresses that his worst fear in coming out as gay was to be abandoned by his friends or ostracized by his community (p. 216, 219). Yet this is exactly what happened to Emmie and Jo when they came out in the Hunters. The fact that this outcome is acknowledged as terrifying and traumatic in The Sun and the Star makes it baffling that it’s framed as congenial and unavoidable in another Riordan book.

The fact that the Hunters are a militant force makes the expulsion of lesbians reminiscent of another notable LGBTQ rights issue: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT). This American legislation, which was in effect from 1994 to 2011, prohibited openly gay, bisexual, or lesbian individuals from serving in the armed forces. It was acceptable to be closeted while serving, but disclosing one’s identity as lesbian, gay, or bisexual resulted in being discharged. The repeal of DADT in 2011 was seen as a major victory for LGBTQ rights in America…which makes it concerning that Riordan would implement the same policy for his fictional militia in a book that was published in 2017. And then portray it as positive and empowering.

Riordan doubling down on the “no romance allowed” aspect of his iteration of the Hunters by excluding lesbians from membership is a bizarre commitment to his misconstrued translation of the ancient Greek concept of virginity. Remember that Artemis’s vow of virginity was a commitment to independence and a rejection of marital submission to a man in a patriarchal society, not a condemnation of romance and sexuality. By this definition, virgins include lesbians, and it is ridiculous to construe two women’s romantic commitment to each other as violating the oath of virginity. Riordan’s choice to vilify lesbians in the Hunters was his choice, not an appropriate application of mythology. Considering that Artemis has been used as a relatable cultural icon for modern lesbians, this seems especially insidious.

Part IV: Asexual misrepresentation

Asexuality is a spectrum of queer identities which describe those that experience little to no sexual attraction to other people of any gender. Aromanticism is a related spectrum of queer identities entailing little to no romantic attraction or interest in other people of any gender. There is a very broad range of asexual and aromantic experiences, including those that overlap with other queer experiences, including lesbianism. Asexuality is not the same thing celibacy and aromanticism is not the same thing as being single. Rick Riordan does not seem to grasp this, construing his anti-romance portrayal of the Hunters as a haven for aromantic and/or asexual girls such as Reyna Avila Ramírez-Arellano.

While a community like the Hunters, with its emphasis on rejecting patriarchal, heteronormative standards, would certainly appeal to many aromantic and/or asexual individuals (as well as most other queer people), there are several issues with conflating the lifestyle of Riordan’s Hunters with asexuality/aromanticism.

First, the Hunters in this setting are exclusively young girls, with the oldest being Thalia Grace, who is 15. Feeding into the stereotype that asexual/aromantic people are immature and childish is hardly positive representation. Second, requisite celibacy is not the same thing as natural asexuality. In fact, I find the whole enforced celibacy, anti-romance thing weirdly Catholic and repressive for a group of people devoted to a Pagan goddess of nature and unconventional independence.

I will iterate it again, this is a reductive, ill-fitting application of the ancient concept of virginity that is associated with Artemis. It is valid for modern asexuals and aromantics to admire and relate to the mythology of Artemis, but Riordan’s misapplication of this association does a disservice to asexuals, aromantics, and queer community as a whole. Riordan’s Hunters feed the harmful, incorrect stereotype that asexuals and aromantics look down on all forms of romantic/sexual love (including queer love) and see themselves as superior to the culture of love and sex. This is not positive aromantic/asexual representation.

Part V: Alternative interpretations

With all of this said, the Hunters serve an important narrative role in Riordan’s stories and a lot of potential as an alternative life path for demigods. Abolishing the Hunters would do the story and its setting a disservice; but I believe they should’ve been written very differently.

The Hunters should maintain their core purpose of an uprooted existence, rejecting conventional society to connect with nature. They should provide community for those who are not served by the heteronormative, cisnormative patriarchy. This would include people of all ages, genders, and romantic/sexual identities. There should be an emphasis on solidarity among marginalized sexual and gender identities instead of overt hostility and gatekeeping.

Members of the Hunters should be discharged only when they decide to rejoin mainstream society or settle down with a lifestyle that is incompatible with the aforementioned purpose of the Hunters. I believe this structure would be far more empowering and liberating than what Riordan has envisioned.

[solisaureus]

Since writing this post, I’ve considered counterpoints that there is plenty of ancient literature indicating that Artemis is hostile to the concept of romance and sex (eg. Aphrodite’s attitude toward her, Artemis’s expulsion of women for being raped by male gods). The point is well taken and revises some of my points about Riordan’s misinterpretation of mythology.

However, the point of the post is Riordan’s Hunters in the context of his pop culture series. There are plenty of aspects of Greek mythology that Riordan has selectively ignored in favor of other interpretations, revised himself, or excluded altogether. For example, Riordan ignored the male attendants of Artemis represented in mythology and made his Hunters exclusively female. Why is Artemis’s hostility toward women who are raped by men something that he chose to include, to even put a positive spin on? Are these good grounds to build aroace representation upon? My point still stands that there are no myths where women are expelled from the hunters for falling in love with other women. That was a homophobic invention of Riordan’s.

My point of Riordan incorrectly equating requisite celibacy to natural asexuality also stands. Being forced to eschew romance or face the consequences of losing the favor of your godly patron and being expelled from your community is Not The Same Thing As Being Aromantic.

[readerwithsalt]

Sun and the Star Review: (With snippets from the book)

Since I just finished The Sun and the Star I’m just gonna say the first thing I have a problem with is the TELLING and NOT SHOWING.

• And I was wondering if anyone thought that they made Will super lame and ooc compared to previous cooler depictions of him. Like he’s supposed to be Super Chill under pressure and the Calm Dude but he’s so WHINY the entire book. He’s constantly complaining, judging, screaming, crying or sleeping. The cool, chill vibe Will had before is gone which was one of the things I liked about him before.

• someone else said ‘Tsats Will thinks there’s something wrong with Nico, something wrong with his personality. Will thinks Nico needs to be “fixed” and “healed” and so he can be “normal” and then Nico will be actually appealing to Will. Tsats Will may love some parts of Nico (or at least thinks he loves some parts of Nico). But there are more parts of Nico that Will finds unsavory or unnerving or scary or unsettling or unsatisfactory or unappealing’ I agree sadly

• Like he tells Nico in the beginning of the book that he’s just as capable of survival as Nico (which I snorted at cause no) and then is the hugest burden I’ve ever seen on a quest EVER in a riordan book. Like Nico tries to lift Will up every time he passes out from ‘lack of sun’ (which is so stupid btw) and Nico can’t lift him up cause he’s not strong enough so he’s constantly WAITING on Will. And it’s really boring to read about how every few seconds Nico has to turn around and let his boyfriend catch up.

I think Will’s character could have shined and been more likable in a completely different plot and quest.

Like, I thought since they weren’t giving Will any weapons that his strengths would lie in being the fast athletic character that didn’t need a magic item in order to show off…

• the whole ‘role reversal’ caretaker thing made Will look completely useless. Nico did 80 percent of the work and Will sadly fell flat. I thought he was coming along to keep Nico safe and to heal him when he got injured but Nico was pretty much doing almost every job. It was like he was riding Nico’s coattails to become a ‘hero’ and prove himself. But he didn’t really prove anything except that he complains a lot when things get rough.

They didn’t give Will a character weapon (even Piper has one and she doesn’t fight that much. Neither does Leo and he at least uses a hammer) they made him exhausted the whole book so he didn’t have his normal physical strength, his backstory was also pretty boring.

• and Will keeps randomly getting irritated at Nico bc Nicos irritated at him. Like?? Your shitting on his underworld home every chance you get. I’d be irritated too.

• in previous books he’s described as an archer. Even tho Leo calls him ‘the archer dude’ in TLH he suddenly doesn’t know how to use a bow AT ALL. He only said he wasn’t as good as his siblings not that he was complete shit at it. Previously he used a bow and had a dagger in BOO. Also will randomly says he never wanted to be a fighter and loved healing but in previous books he’s insecure about just that. Also the book forgets Will is a BATTLEFIELD MEDIC. Like he can fight and heal just like Apollo.

• Will whines constantly. And it’s grating and annoying to read. Either about the lack of sun (you knew what you were getting into dumbass) or the dead people walking around or about Nico’s horrible ‘darkness’ that he has to heal. It’s like he never thinks of Nicos feelings when he says stuff. And there little ‘fights’ end unsatisfactory.

• The vibe of Camp-Half-Blood is nonexistent. It does not feel like camp at all. It feels like we’re in a 12 year olds fanfic mind. ALL of the campers are gone even though it’s been established MANY are orphans and we see no beloved background characters and background chaos that makes us smile like in the past books. It made me surprisingly more depressed than I thought it would.

• it’s also missing the mystique of a quest. Like going up to the big house to have the quest recited around a table full of cabin counselor demigods all fighting to be the third member to prove themself a hero (mostly the ares cabin) no matter how important a quest in pjo was for Percy Chiron ALWAYS enforced certain rules. Even if they broke later on.

• Loose Ends. Reyna is. Not. Mentioned. Once. It never comes up how Nico feels about his big sister friend joining the hunters like his other one did even tho in BOO he tore apart a courtyard cause they took her. The girl whose shoulder he cried into, the girl who was with him during his last quest. The girl who thought of him as a little brother and tucked him in her cape and said he resembled his surname as he slept.

Hazel is mentioned… but it’s literally just a couple shallow mentions that don’t have anything to do with the fact that he may not ever see her again if he revisits Tartarus. He mentions his beloved little sister who was the actual first light in his life (don’t know why the book says Will is) in a long time only once and it’s because he can’t remember something and thinks Hazel would?? It’s weird that he iris messages Piper at the end instead of Hazel. I thought that’s what he was going to do and then it was just a big cringe fest of Piper shoved in at the end talking about the label of her sexuality?? Like we actually care??

And It’s never stated that Nico finds out where Jason is even though HE SHOULD KNOW. He literally talks to Beckendorf and Luke when they die in pjo to find out where they went but he can’t figure out where his best friend is??

Also at the end of the book it says Nico still hasn’t redecorated his cabin even though he told Jason he was going to a YEAR AGO bc the ‘decor was disgusting’ (I think that was the worst loose end not fixed 😂)

Every other relationship of Nicos is thrown away so he can admire Will Solace’s mediocrity. who’s kinda a loser in this tbh….

• The Percabeth scene was weird. What relevance does sally jackson have to Nico’s story? Why did he have to go all the way to Percy’s bedroom to iris message him?? And the fact he uses the ship name Percabeth to describe them (which he’d never done in previous books) proves a cringe fan is the one writing this.

The fact that they don’t OFFER TO HELP Nico is ooc of them. Bc even if Percy wants to chill at college he would never want Nico to clean up his mess without offering his help. Also the fact that Percy turns to Annabeth and says ‘oh man I forgot about him’ is like… WHAT?? And they just say oh yea if anyone can get through Tartarus it’s you two.

To Will who’s never been on a quest and doesn’t fight (at least in this book) that’s a weird thing to say. Percy and annabeth only survived bc they’ve fought together FOR YEARS. And bc of Percy’s big three power. It was just a forced add in cameo. Would’ve been better if they didn’t know till the end that Nico got Bob out and then they suddenly see Bob in an iris message and start crying or something…

• it broke my heart that Nico gave his SKULL RING to Will. The last gift from Bianca Nico ever got and he gives it to someone that doesn’t even appreciate his element.

And what does Nico get in return? A coin. I mean, an engraved coin but still. It’s kinda symbolic of the relationship. Nico giving Will something of such RELEVANCE to Nico’s character, something he’s always described with wearing and then Nico receiving a token in turn.

• Will asks Persephone how he’s SUPPOSED TO LOVE NICO. Like I almost blew up my house with me in it at that part. It never feels like Will is as attracted to Nico as Nico is to him. Nico instigates every kiss (which is ooc of him and his reservedness to touch). It seems Will likes to look at others a lot because one of Nicos insecurities were of him staring at fucking Paolo. While being right next to his boyfriend, Will checks out other people… Like Nico deserves so much better. He at least deserves respect.

I would’ve appreciated Nico and Ghost Jason way more than this shit. At least Jason described Nico better and they weren’t even dating. And I liked Solangelo before this. Will never describes physical attributes that he likes about Nico the same way Nico does about Will. Like Nicos inky dark eyes and baby bat winged hair, and his smile that is apparently like winter sun breaking through snow flurries, and his hair smelling pleasantly of rain against stone (I think Apollo is more attracted to Nico than Will is). But Nico has to call Will hot every five min.

• Also I simply don’t understand the idea that Will being away from the sun would drain him to the point where he can’t keep up with NICO’S WALKING PACE within a couple hours. Like the super athletic, physically strong character that can lift Nico over his shoulders and run with him (and Rachel in TON) walks into the underworld and has to be healed by a stupid portable night light within five minutes.

• Don’t even get me started on his JUDGINESS. I always pictured Will as the guy at camp that thought Nicos powers were cool and stuff, right? And now he just judges every ‘dark’ thing nico does like darkness is synonymous with evil. And only his light can heal him. I HATED that trope and honestly thought they would make him more original. But I have to say it: he was so boring. Like in a way that made my stomach hurt.

• Wills kind of a jerk in this. Like it’s weird to read.

• The PACING. It was off the whole book. The only part i enjoyed was the part where they didn’t know they were dreaming (that part got me) but that was it. But like gorgras scene keeps overlapping with the rest of the story and I kept forgetting my place. The fact that riordan or oshiro or whatever 12 year old fan wrote this put the words FLASHBACK & DREAM SEQUENCE over the chapters gave it SERIOUS fanfic vibes. The pacing is simply not suspenseful enough for a place like Tartarus.

• And do NOT get me started on Tartarus. Okay I’ll say it anyway: it wasn’t scary AT ALL. LIKE ANY OTHER QUEST. Actually it seemed easier than other previous quests which is a big nope. Hades might as well have sent him to Target.

• And about the fact that is was HADES who gave him that prophecy is SO OOC of him. He loves Nico. Nico is probably Hades most favorite child ever as of right now and he sends him horrible nightmares, and a prophecy respouted 12 times to get him to save Bob (whom Hades could care less about btw) and go back to a place that he knows haunts Nico every day MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE!

Also HOW did hades give Rachel that prophecy? He has no power over the Oracle of Delphi.

• Maria and Bianca MAKE NO SENSE! How in the hell is there any piece of thier souls left when Hades gave Maria ancient rites and was the one soul Nico was not allowed to see and Bianca reincarnated. WHICH WAS FORGOTTEN BTW. NOW SHES BACK IN ELYSIUM?? Like?? Like maybe I could see Hades letting Nico see a piece of Maria but Bianca is literally GONE forever.

Nico was ooc. Like not too badly but still bad. But the fact that Will didn’t let Nico shadow travel even once irks me. The fact Will didn’t let him summon Jules Albert irks me. The fact that Will kept brushing off nicos feeling about the underworld irks me. The fact that Will called Persephone the most beautiful PERSON he’d ever seen right in nicos face and then asked his (insecure) boyfriend if he was jealous irks me. The fact that Will is BORING AS FUCK irks me

• And the COMING OUT story. Horridly ooc. Nico shouting to the whole camp he’s gay and getting all the other kids to come out too is like??? and apparently he asked out Will before Will had even come out?? Nico would NEVER do that. Especially since not long before Cupid had done the same to him. And apparently Nico is like the first out character in a MODERN GREEK camp with DIONYSUS as a director. No.

In character Nico would’ve shadow traveled back to his cabin or the woods the moment he figured out what was happening.

• the nicknames are extremely cringe. Little ball of darkness is used to much and it made me itch. I think Will simply calling him babe or something would’ve been simpler and made them seem more like a real couple instead of a caricature of light and dark.

• ‘he’d always been the demigod who WOULDNT eat.’ ………..what the actual fuck is this. Nicos always been naturally skinny but being starved in jar is what messed up his hunger. Not that he WOULDNT eat. Why is everything always his fault in this book?

Like, he didn’t ‘LET’ himself get to the point of starvation over and over. I mean first of all he became homeless at ten years old, probably had to steal food items. And most recently he got KIDNAPPED by TWO GIANTS and starved forcibly. And then when he got out he was under so much stress of what just happened to him in Tartarus, the war with Gaea, his forced outing, and having to lug an enormous statue ACROSS THE WORLD. but nah, I guess he just LET all of that stuff happen to him

• the references are BAD. Out of touch bad. Unfunny and the joke never becomes a joke. It’s never explained how a kid from the 1930s knows how to use the internet and look up lil nas x in a camp that doesn’t use any technology. Doesn’t explain how Nico knows about Care Bear powers (I didn’t even know that) and the beginning scene with the Star Wars ‘joke’ set a weird tone for the book and wasn’t even funny.

• I hated the cocoa puff demons coming to live with Nico. Like I was fine they got created ig even tho it was weird and kinda dumb but the fact that Nico is so keen to have his worst memories and insecurities sleep in bed with him makes no sense once again. In character Nico would’ve burned them with hellfire.

• Also Nyx is a unfathomably weak villain. A PRIMORDIAL GODDESS that even ZEUS fears is taken down in two seconds. Also she’s just trying to get Nico ‘accept his darkness’. WHICH HE ALREADY HAS DONE. The moment he called himself The Ghost King in battle of the labyrinth at eleven years is when he truly accepted his powers and who he was. So… why is she even in the book in the first place??

• Also Will STILL insists it’s Nicos fault he wasn’t accepted. And that it was all in his head….

Also Micheal Yew was simply never mentioned again. Neither was lee fletcher. If they were I missed it.

There were a COUPLE of cute parts and lines but really this is simply too weird (and bad) to be canon to me. This book is just not canon. I see it as fanfiction from a random author that riordan probably let write the entire book or at least most of it. I think sadly riordan put his name on this for money and for fanservice because the writing is first draft material.

(And it kind of feels like they got this version of Nico and Will from cringy meme posts about them. Like, you know the ones where Nico’s all like ‘I am darkness, i am a vampire’ and Wills all like ‘come on, my uwu baby, no more shadowtravel for you, doctors orders~’ 🤣😭)

just because they thought that’s what the twelve year olds wanted and not realizing that a lot of those posts are simply made as a joke and not actually taken seriously in canon…. And that most people in the fandom thinks those are bad cringeposts

[the-ghost-king]

I spent about two hours on this over the past couple of days in total, and I'm sure I've missed a few things and I guarantee that some of my opinions will not be shared by others and that's okay. I'm comfortable with people adding on their own thoughts and feelings and continuing on a conversation if they wish to.

Before I truly begin: this book isn't bad, that doesn't mean it's good it just means it's not bad. I think this book is both wonderful and awful, this book is both exactly what I expected and unlike anything I could have come up with. I will also clarify before you read this that I have never personally enjoyed any of Oshiro's work I've read, if you're someone who enjoys Oshiro's body of work there may be many places you disagree with me and I would like to note that ahead of time. I would also like to note that these are simply my initial thoughts, I finished TSATS two days ago and I have done some thinking and pondering over it since and these are the conclusions I have reached in that time. I cannot say how much of this I will agree with in a week, or a month, let alone three, or a year. I considered writing an essay and then decided a bullet point list would be sufficient, there is no order to these bullet points and some conversation points move in a circular way, I did not proofread this either. Also be aware there will be spoilers. Without further ado, my thoughts:

- Hades is weirdly ooc plus having him be responsible for this and him knowingly harming Nico and Nico just being like "oh ok i understand" undoes so much of the relationship progression from Pjo to BoO to ToA to here!!! Hades is still a god yes but he was becoming something of a father figure to Nico as well again and he just throws that all away because Nyx and Bob were "being annoying" and Nico is just… fine with that??? And they just jokingly brush the whole Hades loved more Bianca thing under the rug WITH MARIA RIGHT THERE

- Why are we reintroduced to Persephone like she's a new character? Sure it's from Will's pov and they've never met but the readers have met Persephone multiple times before!! It was weird to reintroduce her!!

- Worst editor ever, a few typos and apparently some copies have Nico saying his mother is Bianca? He also calls his mom Maria instead of mom or mamma? And we've only ever heard nico call maria mamma before this point so him calling her mom is less weird than him calling her Maria but still off

- Will… still doesn't have a personality entirely and what personality he was given does not match the personality he has in ToA OR in BoO??

- Once again, I don't like Oshiro's pacing and you can tell how hands off Rick was with the whole thing - I've never personally been a fan of Oshiro's work and one of my top reasons has always been their terrible pacing. I will read a phenomenal paragraph and then spend the rest of the chapter struggling to find anything that feels worth my time, and while i felt within chapter there was a fair bit of consistency between different chapters there was not- i would read one chapter that read well and felt amazing and then the next 3 chapters would feel like useless side plot that served no purpose. Oshiro also really struggles to maintain tempo in their work imo.

- Characters defining their sexuality in explicit terminology or labeling isn't inherently wrong but its also not in line with what we've seen so far and while this could be a sign of progress it could also be a step back so instead it's best to consider how this effects or determines characterization

- Nico's coming out party…. God… why?

- There's also this weird thing with so much of the sexuality/gender stuff that it feels more like a lecture than an authentic experience, for me personally based on the flow of these conversations and the events and things i feel like it was done to make this more palatable for a cishet audience rather than to maintain and authentic experience??

- Anyhow the thing where Nico kind of makes Will come out in front of camp is giving me love simon flashbacks and i just have to say making someone come out to a large group or in public just to be with you is so so gross… there was no reason for this to be a plot point whatsoever imo, it feels really ooc and it does that really upsetting thing lots of ya books do where it tries to depict that in order to be authentically and "properly" queer one must be public in their grsm orientation which i think is a pretty harmful/hurtful idea overall but especially in media designed for preteens and teens who are more likely to be living in environments where coming out is unsafe

- None of the jokes land

- Literally they have the worst nicknames for everything. I liked the cringe otherwise, it did have young teen relationship vibes… but that was unforgivable to me personally but i guess other people liked this? To each their own!

- On that note! I've talked a lot about Solangelo being two sides of the same coin in terms of how their relationship works and while symbolism would have been nice straight up seeing Nico given a coin by will was also cringe and too far? Nico gave Will his ring, this thing that we've built up over the series to view as a representation of his grief and loss and his family and love and home and a culmination of Nico and Will gets nico… this coin he just seemingly had made that has almost no symbolic meaning beyond that? Nico's ring is basically a character unto itself, not only does giving a physical object and having Nico outright state the symbolism of it ruin the "show don't tell" logic of authoring it also feels hollow as the reader has no connection to this object like Nico's ring. There was no reason for this other than to make an equivalent exchange which is kind of a sucky way to weigh a relationship… it could have been better for Will to give nico something from his past as well and to have the piece come up in a memory or something OR for will and nico to have exchanged these gifts at some point on or just before their journey so the reader got to experience this connection as well

- Will's pov was kind of trash actually

- Why doesn't Will ever talk about finding Nico attractive?

- We never have it explained what exactly makes Nico a "star" ..? Like its constantly alluded to or even stated he is a star but we never actually get to see why

- Will never really "goes dark" the sniffles are not dark, dark would be like straight up plaguing them or having some sort of ability to radiate heat and blast things or craft his own weapons out of light or just something beyond singing and having the heart blast effect thingy…

- Their relationship is stated they've been together a year and trauma can definitely change things but for whatever reason their relationship feels more new and raw and tender than it did in ToA??? Why??? They do not feel like two fifteen/sixteen year olds who have been in a relationship for a year, they feel like two thirteen year olds who've been in a relationship for three months?

- I also personally feel conflicted about them not having a major kiss scene? Like on one hand it's nice to see queer couples treated like any other couple and kisses to be fairly casual mundane interactions! But on the other hand being a queer couple especially an mlm couple in a children's/ya series and being able to show physical affection is really quite uncommon tbh and I would have liked to see maybe a little emphasis at least on the first kiss that the audience gets to experience on paper just to sort of acknowledge that groundbreaking act? But maybe that's just me?

- Additionally speaking all of their prior banter is just.. gone..? They literally don't joke around except for 2 or 3 lines in the book despite previously being a very banter heavy couple? There is no reason they can't be both soft and comedic or have banter yet be tender to one another? It's like all the joy that was previously in their relationship was traded for arguing and bickering and this weird pettiness that feels ooc in general but especially from them?

- What was the plot point of going to Sally's house to send the iris message? Why was Sally brought into this? She's cool and we love her but there was no plot reason to add her? Even the percabeth iris message only minimally added to the plot

- Why is Will so bothered by death? Like I'm cool with him feeling weak in the underworld. I can respect that from a tension building pov and also being in the dark does go against his nature but like death is not something against his nature? He is well acquainted with death? People die in medical settings all the time i guarantee he has lost many patients and brushed shoulders with thanatos more than most people at camp + he lost A TON of siblings in the war he would have to be familiar with grief AT THE VERY LEAST but yet he seems to lamblike to all these things the whole novel I feel it weakens his character, the story, the plot, previous books, and his relationship with Nico- if they wanted him to have some reserved hesitations about death they could have done it much more tactfully but they didn't?

- I also hate every time some sort of discussion about him being a healer comes up because yes he is a magical exception that makes him a "natural born healer" but they take that too far imo, yes he is a magical exception but the way this stuff is worded gives this like "Will is such a good healer he never fails or breaks down or fatigues from it" and i just feel like it becomes an unrealistic and unhealthy example after a certain point and I would have loved to see that exploration that so many fanfic authors have done wonderfully about how Will is overworked and needs to learn to take care of himself before his patients just to add that depth to his character but Oshiro and Riordan just skip past this and again it feels like a massively missed plot point to give Will a deeper character

- It's also weird everytime Nico is like "Will always takes care of me now I have to take care of him" because again it just feels like such an unhealthy way to view a relationship… like if a partner gets sick 3x a year and the other partner is sick 5x a year partner A shouldn't be like "well now you owe me two sickness helpings" or something you know? Thats so petty and immature and unhealthy for a relationship and it's something that can be unlearned but also like if they've been together a year and they're supposed to be like a perfect fit according to what i think the symbolism was trying to get at (so much of this book feels like a rough draft not a final cut istg) then why is this even included anyhow?

- Also Nico is ooc at points, he seeks to heal others a lot of the time as well- Hades even mentions this, how even when Nico is offered something for himself he uses the gift to help someone else- this is a quality Nico and Percy (and Jason) all really consistently display throughout pjoverse EXCEPT Nico doesn't do this early on in the text?? He is unfazed by the nature of some things in the underworld (Will is right the fields of asphodel are perhaps more horrific in some way than the variations of hell provided in the underworld) and Nico is just like "yeah that's just how it is here" which kind of goes against that character trait + (though i may be confusing fanfic and canon here) didn't Nico and Hazel have a whole convo about how upsetting or painful asphodel is?? It goes on kind of even more so in this regard though where his regard for humanity seems significantly less so than in previous texts, there's something else as well i can't exactly put my finger on yet that also feels ooc … I'll keep thinking lol

- Once again to the "why is Nico a star thing" we have Nico constantly talking about how live exists even in the underworld and it's obviously intended to be a metaphor for hope and finding light in the dark and therefore a whole solangelo metaphor too but Nico brings it up and Will doesnt understand and then they argue (?) And then the metaphor falls flat because we never get to see this explored; we just have it Stated out loud a few times? Like there are many good explanations as to why this keeps getting brought up especially because we can also tie in how Will and Nico are alive down there or how Nico is seperate from the rest of the underworld because despite being part god he is also part mortal

- Once again Tartarus isn't actually scary and there's only so much "it's for kids" I'm willing to accept there, give it more Coraline please!!

- Again an issue with the Nyx thing, Nico doesn't agree with Nyx about who he is because Nyx cannot understand life and Nico can because he is mortal- Nico's mortality is a hugely defining aspect of his character because it sets him apart from the gods and the dead that make up so much of his life- in order to truly appreciate death and the afterlife you have to actually live and know life and change and things and the gods in their consistency are more like ghosts than anything

- It's also very irritating that this was never explored !!! So much of what makes demigods special in the rest of the series is their godhood and their connection to godhood, they are powerful because they are beyond human. However in Nico's fight with Nyx and some other aspects of Nico's behavior but most notably Nyx vs Nico is the culmination of this situation is that Nico's greatest strength throughout tsats is that he is mortal. He is powerful because he is human. He does all the things he does the way he does them because he is human. He is something beyond the gods' understanding because he is mortal- and that's all just swept under the rug for…? Honestly i have no idea why it makes no sense how that is a constant theme in this book yet it feels like the book falls constantly short of actually grasping that concept.

- And if you're wondering what the plot symbolism of Will being involved in all this is? I dont fucking know he doesnt have one he was kind of just dead weight the entire story!!! He was basically there just to help Nico pick some fruit and have dialogue with. I feel like Will was potentially supposed to represent how the "average person" would feel on this adventure but personally I feel if that is the case that I may be one of the worst people to understand that perspective as I have a peculiar and poetic love for death and dying.

- Plus when they're wandering through Tartarus's digestive tract (if you're reading this and you haven't read the novel yet or you didn't yet finish it, yes this is a thing that actually happens) and Will starts struggling with his memory, I would have loved to see the effects of that situation on Nico explored more as I would assume amnesia and people forgetting about him/leaving him would be a very difficult thing for him to deal with yet instead we're just told they passed stories back and forth and that made everything all right + not sharing much of those stories with the audience was again a missed character building moment for Will and a missed relationship building moment between them!!

- Them cuddling in the hut together and Nico wanting to wake Will up to share his nightmare was kind of cute though I will admit to that much

- I also hate how they put all this time and work into saving Bob and then Bob just fucks off into the sunset like everything is normal?? He just fucking dips like nothing even happened??

- Also people have been saying Will kissing Nico when he found out Jason was dead was wrong, and look idk if I'm personally going to go that far but I do think as a first kiss it's definitely weird than cute?

- I think Will's background and childhood could have been expanded on a lot more to make him an interesting character- we learn some about his life with Naomi before camp (and its nice to see her as a complete person and I think she has cool mom vibes for real) but I feel like the only adventure we get to hear about is him and his mom being in New York for concerts… what about other places around the country? what about the life he had with her when she wasn't touring?

- Along this same vein I feel like Will's behavior in the story not only doesn't match his behavior from the previous appearances he's made, but that for someone who seems to have spent a lot of time on the road getting to experience lots of different places (even if it was just the US, that's still pretty significant) I once again truly cannot understand his weird behavior about dead people and the underworld- its not only inconsistent with previous behaviors and beliefs he's exhibited but if he's been show so much diversity from a very young age he's probably naturally curious and inquisitive as well as naturally adventurous and outgoing- yet instead he basically just sticks his nose up at everything underworld-ish?? It not only weakens the plot, his character, and his relationship it also makes no sense with previous set ups AND it has no true culmination by the end of the story because we never truly see him accept or enjoy the underworld and what it has to offer he merely endures it.. so again, what was the point of him acting like that?

- Unpopular one: coco puffs are very cute but i find them unnecessary and completely over the top even for pjo and i can see them becoming annoying later on but that's just me personally.

Okay, I'm going to call it quits here. There's probably more I'll think to say later on but I feel this is a good summary of my initial thoughts. Weirdly enough, despite the negativity here, I would still recommend people read this book? I feel conflicted about whether or not the book belongs among my favorites, and it would certainly be the worst book among my favorites and/or recommendations for novels if I do end up feeling it belongs there. I have to say even despite as much as this book fails, I admire what it was attempting and I think like so many works in pjo before it there was a level of unrealized potential here amongst the text that will always be mildly infuriating. I feel very strongly that this book is a whole new era in Riordan's pjo verse, despite some aspects being "cringe" or some things being literary flops and emotional failures in my opinion, i do think this novel may be one of the most "mature" pieces in Riordan's collection- even in his and Oshiro's failure to bring MOST of their narrative full circle or to tie up their loose ends I can see what they're going for and I think having a taste of that potential really did something for me. I have read lots of books that leave me staring at the ceiling for hours in wonder and awe with a feeling i cannot describe as anything other than a "readers hangover" a desire to hold onto that book and to keep it beside me for a long time just to remember reading it, and I would pick it up many times through the following week or two just to rediscover certain parts, i have to say this book has definitely not been that. However I did spend a long time looking at the ceiling pondering it, and I do think I will reread it in the next week or so- but I have less a desire to return to the events of the novel and more a desire to simply upturn more stones in the landscape and find what I am missing. I want to say I hate the book, that it has no redeeming qualities, that everyone should simply leave it behind because of how awful and excruciating I found this novel- that wouldn't be accurate. I think this is the greatest book I have ever had the misfortune to read, I have never cared so deeply for a book I cannot stand. I absolutely adore this awful thing. I feel comfortable saying that for me, personally, percy jackson will never be the same again and that this book has completely changed the field and depth of my experience. I am literally failing to put into words how this book makes me feel. I suppose this book is my most wretched child and I shall cherish it dearly.

[calicofae]

the one for writers

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