Untitled

[dissocidog]

adult. dissociative system.

trigger warning for ramcoa & related content.

[felis-the-complex-multiple]

Petition for people on this godforsaken website to stop querying about whether xyz random experience “qualifies” as RAMCOA/TBMC/programming. I literally cannot go anywhere on this site these days without stumbling across the absolute worst takes where people ask strangers on the internet whether their experiences count as RAMCOA, or if TBMC could happen in X setting with one (1) person, or if having an alter who’s triggered by Y thing means they’re programmed.

It’s absolutely infuriating because the vast majority of the answers given to these questions is yes, which is WILD to me because literally 1) words mean things and no, RAMCOA doesn’t only involve psychological abuse; it is quite literally hands on, and no, it can’t be done with one person because it quite literally is always a form of organized abuse, and 2) it is so fucking irresponsible to tell a person you’ve never met and know nothing about that their alter is having a programmed reaction when what the asker is describing is very likely a common conditioned trauma response. Like sometimes the most likely explanation IS the correct explanation!! And regardless, this is something they should explore with a safe, trusted, experienced irl human, not a stranger on the internet!

Like dude! What the fuck! How did we get here?? Why is everyone craving RAMCOA experiences and wishing for programmed alters?? Why are people desperately trying to jam their experiences into very specific boxes that mean very specific things?? Religious abuse is not RA! Conditioning is not programming! Psychological abuse is not TBMC! Most forms of abuse are not OA! Please for the love of everything, try to accept that you don’t need to try and make your experiences fit into these labels in order for your experiences to be bad! They don’t need to be RAMCOA in order for people to take you seriously! Or to believe that you suffered! Or to agree it was bad enough! I promise!

These words mean things and the meanings were not created by people on tumblr and the meanings have existed for decades and have been in use by professionals in the field for an equal length of time. Stop watering down the experiences of RAMCOA survivors by trying to make xyz random trauma fit into labels that exist to describe and define very specific forms of abuse that result in very specific types of systems and symptoms. It’s really not cool, we can tell that you don’t know what you’re talking about, we know you don’t actually have the experiences you claim to have, and it’s very fucking upsetting and insulting! You don’t need to claim to be like us in order to get the support you deserve!

When I first joined DID tumblr like five years ago, there was nothing in the RA tag, and there wasn’t even really a RAMCOA tag at all. And now the RAMCOA tag has multiple people using it every day and it honestly really just exploded within the past year or so. It has been wild to see! I’m not mad about fellow survivors finding each other and telling their stories. I’m not upset that people are being more open about their experiences and are naming it what it is. But I AM upset about this huge flood of people claiming/wanting to claim certain labels for themselves when they don’t have the experiences that fit within the definitions of those labels, and I am upset about the rampant misinformation about what these forms of abuse actually entail, and I am upset about people saying that randos on tumblr fit these definitions when they can’t possibly know that.

It’s just so fucking invalidating. It’s so insensitive. And it’s also dangerous. This isn’t game. This isn’t a “collect them all” trauma scavenger hunt. This isn’t something to be envied or sought after. This isn’t something that makes you a more valid or legit survivor than someone else. This isn’t something that gives you cool points.

Being a RAMCOA survivor is awful. It means having a horrific time finding a therapist who knows how to help you, because even most DID specialists don’t have enough knowledge in this area to help you without setting off programs or making things worse. It means not being able to use most run of the mill DID recovery guides because none of them address the intricacies of dealing with hierarchies and abuser-loyal parts. It usually means having a polyfragmented system and all the confusion and overwhelm and awfulness that comes from that. It means having survived unspeakable horrors that most people would never even dream of and that many people don’t even believe in.

I know this rant won’t stop any of this, that it won’t stop the misinformation or stop people from trying to claim things that don’t belong to them, but I just can’t stay quiet about it anymore. It’s so painful and aggravating how these trends make things so much harder and more isolating for actual survivors.

[severed-childhood]

things non-survivors should know about ramcoa

i want to make one of these posts because as i'm re-emerging myself in the system community, im encountering the fact that ramcoa is a lot more talked about than it once was. which is great in some aspects and not so great in others. some of these things are things even people in the survivor community need to understand.

- **RAMCOA IS NOT JUST PROGRAMMING** programming is a part of ramcoa, if you're a programming survivor, you are inherently a ramcoa survivor, but being a ramcoa survivor DOES NOT mean you're a programming survivor. programming is inherently a kind of organized abuse, but you don't have to be programmed to be a ramcoa survivor. - **YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO DEVELOP DID IF YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH RAMCOA** this is just objectively not true information, considering the vast majority of individuals who experience ramcoa are not children. many people who have experienced ramcoa will develop PTSD/CPTSD or something like OSDD-2 as the result, rather than DID or OSDD-1. - **ALL GROUPS ARE CONNECTED** again, objectively not true information. cults have different purposes, organizations have different purposes, and all of them are working toward an individualized goal, even if it's akin to a religious group or other organization that already exists. they can be connected to one another, like a cult being connected to a trafficking ring, but that doesn't mean all groups around the world in every country are connected by a common factor. - **IF YOU AREN'T POLYFRAGMENTED, YOU CAN'T BE PROGRAMMED** this is false. not all children dissociated to a high enough capacity for the programming to be successful, and some don't even develop DID from attempted programming.

**GROUPS KIDNAP RANDOM CHILDREN**

just like with any abuse, it is more likely to be perpetrated by or initiated by someone a child knows. typically, in these circumstances, it will be the parents who bring the child into the group, sell them to the group, or allow them to be abused by the group on a regular basis. parents are always complacent, ignorant, or involved with this kind of abuse.

[dissocidog]

What is Programming in the Context of RAMCOA?

Often, individuals who experienced an abuse under the RAMCOA acronym (Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse) believe that they are a victim of programming; however, many of these individuals do not fully understand the reality of what they are claiming.

Programming utilizes ritual abuse (a type of organized abuse) to gain the desired outcome of mind control. Programming is always intentional. Programming is always done by an organized group of people, and therefore, cannot be done by a single individual. In other words, to be programmed, an individual must experience Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

Programming is described as "sophisticated mind control... designed to compel them to do various things", such as "self-destructive behaviors… [and] allowing access to perpetrators…" (Lovern J., 1993, para. 8). Victims of programming "[respond] to various cues, such as sounds, hand signals, lights, names or numbers, etc., by carrying out specific behaviors" (Lovern J., 1993, para. 8). In other words, programming is a form of mind control, done through a specific type of abuse, that allows the perpetrators to control the victim through cues.

Examples of similar forms of abuse that are not done in an organized manner are conditioning, indoctrination, and coercion. Conditioning is a form of Mind Control. Although conditioning, indoctrination, coercion, and programming are not the same, it is important to acknowledge the validity of conditioned, indoctrinated, and coerced individuals, and to be aware that programming is not inherently a worse trauma than conditioning, indoctrination, or coercion.

Sources

Lovern J. (1993). Spin Programming: A Newly Uncovered Technique of Systematic Mind Control. https://kenniscentrumtgg.org/wp-content/uploads/spin-programming-1993.pdf

[merisms]

(recovery anon) thank you for answering! i was wondering if you had any experience with fusions/goals with fusion, and if anything did/did not work for you in this process.

Sure! My personal goal is to fuse some, but not all parts. Mostly because with the way I am structured (not just the polyfragmentation), it is unlikely for me to be able to go through final fusion as a whole, something the past three therapists I've had have agreed on. So far, some parts have fused whether just as happenstance or on purpose, and some have gotten closer to fusion.

Things that did not work:

Trying to recount or deep dive into trauma memories, something the DID community often confuses for trauma work

Trying to force parts to do anything or be in any situation

Trying to rush recovery in any way, including trying to work on issues that I/other parts are not ready to work on

Bombarding parts with information about how my environment, situation, age, etc are different in an effort to bring them into the present

Things that do work:

Slowly building collaborative relationships with parts

Working on communication with parts

Only working on issues and memories as they come up organically, and when working on them, focusing on how they affect me in the here and now and how to mitigate that (trauma work)

Encouraging parts to work together

Allowing parts to see for themselves, at their own pace, how the world and their environment currently functions and answering any questions they ask about the here and now

Respecting parts' boundaries and preferences, even if it is inconvenient

Listening to what parts have to say, even if it is uncomfortable or unpleasant

Asking parts what they need from me/the environment to feel less stressed/upset/angry/etc and giving them what they need or coming to a compromise or agreement if it is not achievable immediately/at all or is unhealthy

Finding ways to show parts that they now have control of situations both inside and out

[severed-childhood]

question bc im stupid: is it technically trafficking if clients go to the childs house. instead of the child going to others houses/traveling/being kidnapped etc? thank you x !

Human trafficking of any kind doesn't require you to be transported to other places in order for it to be trafficking. It's the exploitation of a person for commercial purposes (whether that be sex acts or labor).

[olkarrion-deactivated20250108]

"If you even think getting a cane might help, you should get one!"

you dumbfucks are handing out carpel tunnel and gait issues like its fucking Halloween. mobility aids can cause you more fucking harm than good if you are using them wrong or not for the right reasons.

you should not be recommending a cane to anyone who has mild joint pain. yall need to exercise the other options before turing to an aid, otherwise you risk fucking yourself over permanently.

[talkethtothehandeth]

I saw “if you want one, get one!” posts about a mobility aid

I get they’re trying to be positive about mobility aids but just *wanting* a certain type isn’t enough information you need in order to move through with actually buying it, and it might not even be a good fit for you at all in general.

If you don’t have the right mobility aid, you’re going to fuck up your body and I guarantee it can be much worse than what it is now.

[severed-childhood]

i cannot put in words how fucking disgusting it is to be calling people "trauma in laws". it really just shows who does and doesn't take this seriously at all.

and for the love of fucking god quit announcing what groups you were in publicly on tumblr. or at all? outside of your fucking therapist's office.

think before you fucking post things.

[severed-childhood]

What would "count" as MC under the RAMCOA acronym? For example, programming and cult conditioning are clear examples of MC; however, I am looking for opinions/answers as to where the line is drawn.

Well, to be honest, I don't even define TBMC the same as other people do because you can drug and torture more than just children to manipulate them into a specific thought process and complacency, but I know not everyone, especially not on Tumblr, shares this definition with me, and that's fine. However, MC as a whole category includes a lot of things such as brainwashing, thought reform and "correction", conditioning to follow a specific belief set, whether that's religious or otherwise, abuse intended to control the victim's actions. The list goes on and on with like specific circumstances, but generally I define it as a group of abusive people controlling a vulnerable individual's ability to think and act for themselves with threats of harm, harm to loved ones or other cared about people, financial control, and the instillation of fear in other manners. It can also be abuse faced by Prisoners of War while in captivity.

Thinking about it now, I don't think anyone's asked me to define MC itself before, and I've avoided doing so because I can't come up with a definition that feels like it covers the bases of the circumstances of all MC survivors adequately. It's a form of organized abuse, which means there are multiple perpetrators (including if the other perpetrators are also being controlled by a primary abuser at the "top" of something) involved in the abuse.

[dissocidog]

The only thing I would debate about this post is that MC is inherently organized (or group) abuse, because I believe individuals severely conditioned or coerced in settings that are not organized may still identify themselves/"count" as survivors of MC.

[dissocidog]

What is Programming in the Context of RAMCOA?

Often, individuals who experienced an abuse under the RAMCOA acronym (Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse) believe that they are a victim of programming; however, many of these individuals do not fully understand the reality of what they are claiming.

Programming utilizes ritual abuse (a type of organized abuse) to gain the desired outcome of mind control. Programming is always intentional. Programming is always done by an organized group of people, and therefore, cannot be done by a single individual. In other words, to be programmed, an individual must experience Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

Programming is described as "sophisticated mind control... designed to compel them to do various things", such as "self-destructive behaviors… [and] allowing access to perpetrators…" (Lovern J., 1993, para. 8). Victims of programming "[respond] to various cues, such as sounds, hand signals, lights, names or numbers, etc., by carrying out specific behaviors" (Lovern J., 1993, para. 8). In other words, programming is a form of mind control, done through a specific type of abuse, that allows the perpetrators to control the victim through cues.

Examples of similar forms of abuse that are not done in an organized manner are conditioning, indoctrination, and coercion. Conditioning is a form of Mind Control. Although conditioning, indoctrination, coercion, and programming are not the same, it is important to acknowledge the validity of conditioned, indoctrinated, and coerced individuals, and to be aware that programming is not inherently a worse trauma than conditioning, indoctrination, or coercion.

Sources

Lovern J. (1993). Spin Programming: A Newly Uncovered Technique of Systematic Mind Control. https://kenniscentrumtgg.org/wp-content/uploads/spin-programming-1993.pdf

[doll-lesbian]

Im a little bit high rn but like, i feel that some people forget that people with a dissociative disorder are not always systems, DP/DR is a dissociative disorder but does not cause alters like DID, OSDD or UDD do, and there are many other dissociative disorders that dont cause alters, but DID, OSDD and UDD are just the most well known

[fireflies-glowing]

RAMCOA/programmed/HC-DID systems feel free to add onto this, but as a non-RAMCOA system I really think we need to stop trying to police RAMCOA survivor’s language.

They have experienced horrors that we can barely comprehend when they were CHILDREN, sometimes INFANTS. They are trying to find community by labeling their unique experiences that are objectively more complex than many others. So many non-RAMCOA systems are butthurt over HC-DID systems calling themselves “highly complex”, seemingly just because it “invalidates other’s trauma”.

Trauma experiences that are more severe than yours will always exist, and the survivors of those experiences will always speak out about them. By claiming that these people are “playing trauma olympics” by simply speaking out about and labeling their stories, we are actively silencing survivors of severe abuse. Acknowledging that some experiences are more complex than others is not inherently downplaying the validity of the less complex experiences.

Because the nature of RAMCOA survivor’s experiences is near impossible to grasp for us non-survivors, we need to understand that we are stepping out of our lane by trying to involve ourselves in the conversations about RAMCOA exclusive labels. It’s perfectly acceptable for systems to ask non-systems to not get involved in system discourse, and the response should be the same for programmed systems asking non-programmed systems to not get involved in RAMCOA discourse.

Again, I’d love if any RAMCOA systems would like to add onto this! This is just our perspective as a system who is not a survivor, and we’re open to any additions or criticisms.

[severed-childhood]

as a programming and ramcoa survivor, i actually disagree. i do think the highly complex bullshit is a trauma competition because of the person who created it -- she thrives on the attention of being the most hurt, the most abused, the most the most the most. i do agree non-ramcoa survivors should stop trying to inject themselves into conversations about things that pertain specifically to survivors. which includes this entire debate on either side. i am genuinely all for the support and help of people who aren't survivors who educate themselves in an effort to help survivors, but things like this aren't the place for arguments from people who aren't survivors because it's about subjective language. **i'd also love if non-ramcoa survivors would stop treating ramcoa as if it's ONLY programming. it's not. please stop contributing to that misinformation.** you can recognize simultaneously that some traumas are "worse" than others without labelling yourself as "worse" than other people who are also complex, which is the problem with the label aside from "trauma olympics" stuff other people say about it. most people who are polyfrag for non-ramcoa related reasons, aka complex DID, will have very similar experiences to that of ramcoa survivors or programming survivors, the abuse they endured just wasn't intentional. that doesn't mean it wasn't still horrific in the same ways, it just wasn't organized. that doesn't mean a programming survivor is more complex than them, programming survivors' systems are just intentionally structured the way they are.

other complex systems experience abuse from multiple perpetrators, it just may not have been organized. other complex systems can experience things that fall under torture, it just may not have been intentional to cause harm by the abuser or in an organized setting. trauma inherently conditions the brain; programming and other kinds of ramcoa just does it with purpose and intent. it doesn't make one person more complex than the other.

[artisticdysfunction]

please, for fucks sake, do not try and Solve cases of ramcoa survivors when they are venting about their trauma. this isn't a true crime show, you are not a detective, and the legal system (at least in the USA) is not as fair and good as you think it is. if a survivor has not gone to the police, there is a fucking REASON. and you trying to get the police involved, will inevitably get that survivor involved as well! quite trying to be a white knight for strangers on the internet. cope in a different way.

[ghost-of-a-system]

"fakeclaim" — a personal comic about being in an OSDD/DID system.

[severed-childhood]

if you get a chance and know enough about programming, can you make a post about what programming ACTUALLY is vs what teenagers say it is these days?

I hope its okay to share this here, but I honestly dont think a lot of (younger) people claiming to be programmed actually are. I think a lot of them may not even be RAMCOA victims, but due to attitudes like the one from the HC-DID ask, everyone wants to claim their trauma was RAMCOA, and then when they hear about programming and how ~cool and mysterious~ (sarcasm) it is, they "want" to be programmed too.

I guess I'm just really tired of seeing posts/asks like "Is (experience that isnt even RAMCOA) programming?" and really tired of seeing people who dont understand the reality of programming/RAMCOA claim to be victims of it.

I currently see claiming RAMCOA trauma as an unfortunate trend that I hope dies down fast.

What is programming actually?

This is something I struggled to come up with a definition for to make it concise and as clear as possible for a very long time, but I eventually settled on this as the best of what I could come up with:

“the act of abusers deliberately torturing and abusing a young child with high dissociative capacity in order to take advantage of them and condition them to respond to pre-determined stimuli set by the abusers for the group or organization’s intended purpose”.

Notice that abusers is plural. Something specific about the culture around programming that I don't like is the idea that: parents can do it alone. By themselves. This is false.

The process of programming can be initiated by the parents: they can be your handlers, fuck, they can even be your primary programmers, but they cannot act alone as the sole abusers in programming. Programming has to involve parents in some way, whether they were ignorant or they allowed it to happen or they participated in it, but it also has to involve other people.

Programming needs more people to be involved to create the environments for conditioning a child to respond to the triggers the abusers want. This is why many programming survivors also remember being trafficked, being part of CSEM/CSAM production, ritual abuse in a religious setting, and more kinds of organized abuse in combination with the programming.

Programming relies on disorganized attachment from the parents and most definitions of organized abuse include that there has to be more than one perpetrator in the orchestrated events. Often they aren't the primary programmers or handlers of the child because the disconnect from the parents to the child are an important part of developing the dissociative responses they want.

Programming by definition cannot be done unintentionally. There is intent from the abusers to make a child develop these responses to triggers that they decide upon. They might not know exactly that they're causing a child to develop DID, and sometimes the development of DID doesn't work anyways, but they know they're getting desired output from the abusive input. It's not an accident.

This is also not something that can "only" occur on the weekends. Sure, it doesn't have to be 24/7, but it will account for most of the time spent in the abusive environment (ex: a school that is also a cult).

I'm not sure what else to add to this and I've been trying to make this post for over a week now to answer this ask, but I feel like I'm at a loss for all of the things I could explain because there are so many combinations of things that allow these situations to happen and it's not as simple as "does this one singular situation sound like programming?" questions that people often ask blogs.

Conditioning from abuse that wasn't intentional can also warrant what might seem like programmed responses, even if they aren't. This is why it's so important to see a counselor or therapist in order to work through memories and experiences with these things rather than...guessing.

I don't think I can fit this stuff into this post since this is mostly baseline information, but a lot of things like: - Scripts - Number "programming" and other organizational systems - Epsilon alters Are completely misrepresented online and people have no idea how they actually work. They frequently make things up but because of the "don't question" culture around RAMCOA and programming specifically, the lies spread like wildfire.

[hc-did-culture-is]

does programming always result in a did system being formed? or is it possible for someone to have osdd or even be a singlet and be programmed?

this is a bit complicated to answer, since the answer depends on what you count as a system. obligatory psa - this is based on our research but we're not a professional so take it with a grain of salt.

to the best of my knowledge children that are programmed always end up with a system disorder, since the aim of programming is to create dissociative barriers. did is the aim, but osdd/p-did are both possible results if the programming doesn't take well.

but adults can be programmed as well, it's not exclusively used on children. when adults are programmed they end up with osdd-2, which has programmed responses, cues, trances, etc. some people view osdd-2 as a system disorder, some do not, so it's a little up in the air.

of course, if the programming is unsuccessful/fails, then anything could happen, but i'm assuming you were asking about successful programs.

[severed-childhood]

your entire reply is completely incorrect and false.

1 - the same as ANY trauma, programming does not always result in having DID/OSDD-1. sometimes children are not dissociative to the degree they need to be for it to be successful, sometimes the trauma doesn't last long enough because they move or the group is caught or something similar. children being programmed can result in PTSD/CPTSD, BPD (because of abandonment and severe disorganized attachment from parents since the parents/caregivers are always involved, ignorant, or complacent in the abuse!), OSDD-2, DP/DR, dissociative amnesia, and OTHER DISSOCIATIVE OR TRAUMA RELATED DISORDERS. it is NOT limited to DID/OSDD-1 developing. and it also DOES NOT mean the child is NOT conditioned to still behave in any manner consistent with how they were programmed, because they were still abused to be conditioned.

2- ADULTS CANNOT BE PROGRAMMED. OSDD-2 develops as the result of brainwashing and other similar traumas, BUT THAT IS NOT PROGRAMMING. people fail to remember that CONDITIONING can be utilized to abuse someone and PROGRAMMING IS JUST MORE COMPLICATED CONDITIONING DONE TO CHILDREN. OSDD-2 can also develop as the result of a child that was attempted to be programmed, but it did not work. that doesn't mean it "wasn't complete", it literally just means it did not work.

"2. Identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion: Individuals who have been subjected to intense coercive persuasion (e.g., brainwashing, thought reform, indoctrination while captive, torture, long-term political imprisonment, recruitment by sects/cults or by terror organizations) may present with prolonged changes in, or conscious questions of, their identity." (from http://traumadissociation.com/osdd) YES people with OSDD-2 are often organized abuse survivors. YES some of them are programming survivors FROM CHILDHOOD. NO adults cannot be programmed.