I had fun reading this, thank you for the polite reply! A bunch of additions and counterarguments:
I did add tags such as 'anti dumbledore' and 'dumbledore bashing' so they are there, but i will add 'anti albus dumbledore' in at some point during this (failed) quick reblog.
Ah, my bad then, I had the 'anti albus dumbledore' tag blacklisted since it's the most commonly used, and I rushed to reply without seeing the tags. Oh, and thank you for adding that tag!
Still for future reference it'd probably best to add in that tag first, since I believe it's the one most widely used by everyone.
(Very childish of me not to.)
I don't think it's not childish to rant about something you dislike while putting in the appropriate anti character tags, which you intended to do and later did :).
Now, admittedly, a LOT of this could be left as Author Error mixed with Author Hand Waving over certain things as "IDK, but it happened *shrug*",
More than a lot, I think about 90% of the shady things with Albus is probably due to that.
I've written about this, Albus's plan for DH is... really really not well thought out, it exists to serve the plot.
Anyways, you mentioned the Hagrid thing here
Personally, still, that is an insane amount of time, and not the safest, though I've no doubt that Hagrid would have done anything to make sure Harry was safe as best he could. (And hope he was checked on by a healer, had food or something, gods he was probably starving too...)
We have a quote of the author basically saying that she can't do timelines very well.
SU: Rock. That's so cool. I was glad to hear more about them, the night of their murder, in "Deathly Hallows", but there's still a little bit of confusion about that 24 hours, Jo. How did Dumbledore find out what happened in Godric's Hollow?
MA: And what happened, there's this whole 24 hours that's like... People have been fantasizing about for years.
JKR: Yeah, I know. You know, I-- I've got a bit of a problem with this myself, because every time I think it straight in my head, I go back and look at what the fans are theorizing about, and I think, yeah, maybe they've got a point. There is an easy answer to "how would Dumbledore know?", because you can-- he... you can, one can... (laughs) Forgive me if I speak as though it's all real for a moment.
SU: It is real. What do you mean, it's not?
It was all very handwavy, personally, I subscribe to the theory that Harry was brought to a healer or hospital of some kind before being taken to Dumbledore, as for why Hagrid was sent and not a wizard that could apparate more safety? I don't know, maybe babies cannot be apparated safely, though of course everything mentioned here is unsubstantiated theories purely because it was a hand-wavy thing that canon never mentions.
We do know that Minerva, who had been watching the Dursleys, is also firmly against the Dursleys for being the "worst sort of muggles"
‘I’ve come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They’re the only family he has left now.’
‘You don’t mean – you can’t mean the people who live here?’
cried Professor McGonagall, jumping to her feet and pointing at
number four. ‘Dumbledore – you can’t. I’ve been watching them
all day. You couldn’t find two people who are less like us. And
they’ve got this son – I saw him kicking his mother all the way up
the street, screaming for sweets. Harry Potter come and live here!’
Minerva's objections stem from her watching what seems to be a normal family spoiling their son, with her taking issue with how normal they are. Of course to be fair, a part of her issue here is thinking that they would not be able to adequately understand Harry, which is a fair concern, but she wasn't objecting due to sensing that Harry would be abused, or thinking that the Dursleys are bad people.
I mean, lets just have a moment to say that Lily's sacrifice very much did not protect Harry outside of the house -- though apparantly Voldemort couldn't touch him regardless until the ritual -- or from those inside the house.
There are two components to Lily's sacrifice, one that's there automatically, which prevents Voldemort from touching Harry. (But not damaging him, Harry felt the need to cast Portego on Voldemort's victims even after his own sacrificial protection, and Voldemort managed to throw Minerva, Slughorn, and Kingsley in the air even with it.)
And then there's the second part, a charm manually added by Dumbledore that is powered by Lily's sacrifice, that one works on not just Voldemort, but Voldemort and his death eaters. The Dursleys might not be the safest place for other types of harms, but it is, I think, absolutely the safest place for Voldemort related stuff.
“You might ask — and with good reason — why it had to be so.
Why could some Wizarding family not have taken you in? Many
would have done so more than gladly, would have been honored and
delighted to raise you as a son.
“My answer is that my priority was to keep you alive. You were in
more danger than perhaps anyone but myself realized. Voldemort had
been vanquished hours before, but his supporters — and many of
them are almost as terrible as he — were still at large, angry, desperate, and violent. And I had to make my decision too with regard to the
years ahead. Did I believe that Voldemort was gone forever? No. I
knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing
him as I have done, that he would not rest until he killed you.
Even Voldemort mentions it as the primary thing stopping him from kidnapping Harry in GOF
“But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by
Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy’s future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy’s
protection as long as he is in his relations’ care. Not even I can
touch him there. . . .
As for the Dursleys, they are also protected by Dumbledore's charm
“Wait,” said Harry. “Wait a moment.”
He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore.
“You sent that Howler. You told her to remember — it was your
voice —”
“I thought,” said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, “that she
might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son.”
As for the range... it's super weird, but at the very least, given by how Harry had to fly until the house was a speck for the charm to break in DH (and that was also with the Dursleys leaving, and them leaving with the intent to break the charm, could be a farther distance under normal circumstances), that it extends well beyond the property line. But again it's pretty wonky with tons of contradicting stuff thrown in.
For example, Voldemort didn't wait for say, Harry to step out of his house to grab him in GOF, and in OOTP Harry was walking all around Surrey with only a light guard, but when Dementors attacked Sirius told Harry to stay in the house no matter what, perhaps the charm grows stronger the closer Harry is to the house?
But again it's all hand wavy in canon, I and others wrote about it more in depth here, also talks about the narrative portrayal of Dumbleore's decision with the Dursleys. (Sorry, I hope it's not... arrogant? For me to link my metas here?)
(Ofc also author hand wave applied generously.)
Ah, you get it!
But yeah, it's 1000% an author hand wave, first chapter of the first book, with the child on doorstep door, without it I'd assume that both Dumbledore and Minerva wouldn't just leave Harry there... with nothing at all while Minerva went off to join the parties and Dumbledore 'was gone' to do something.
In my head canon very creatively stretch and contort the text to take the 'Dumbledore was gone' thing as him going invisible lol.
My pet theory is that Dumbledore knows that Petunia hates magic, and seeing Harry with something she hates might influence her to not accept him. (Plus, it's easier to shut the door on a capable looking old man holding a child vs a child just left there.)
Of course that doesn't make a very good story, but it is a fair criticism, I should think. Would it stop Voldemort from coming to hogwarts? Maybe not, but it'd be less likely.
I 100% agree with everything you said about the plan for the stone, like we've been repeating for so many times, it's children's book logic.
Just like the insane punishments that Minerva gives out in the first and third books, hunting unicorn killers and locking Neville out of the common room with a killer on the loose.
I found this comment a while back for Severus too:
Then God forbid, Snape decides to be referee at Harry's match. This isn't directly related to Harry's growing interest in the Stone, but it illustrates the point I will eventually make that this plot and its adult character do not hold up to scrutiny. Snape, in his attempt to protect Harry during Quidditch, decides that he can apparently achieve this better when he is.... constantly distracted by refereeing the match? Wouldn't he be able to achieve this better if he were sitting in the stands with nothing else to do but give Harry 100% of his concentration and attention?
This is me going on and on about a point that you already get and mentioned, but I'll say it again still to try and distance this from whataboutism:
90% of the adults in the first three books have at least one moment where they've done something extremely dubious or screwed up, it is inevitable given the whimsical crack-pot nature of those books, and so to stop myself from viewing every adult ever as extremely dubious, I have to read the books with a more Doylistic approach to try and sus out the narrative intent for each character and go with that (I do it for all the books, but much much more for the first 3)
(Of course different reading methods are are there, someone could read all the books with a purely Watsonian perspective and vice versa, and those interpretation methods are valid too.)
The troll was last 'seen' in the dungeon, where the Hufflepuffs and Slytherin common rooms are,
The teachers, including Dumbledore, were also going to search for the troll, so I'd assume that they split off with the Hufflepuf and Slytherin students and so they would be very safe.
But yes you're right, it would have been much better to keep the students already grouped there with a few teachers on watch, and send one or two teachers only to search for the troll instead of splitting everyone up.
Now this one is just more speculation, and a diversion of what we can agree on, but in regards to Slytherin house... it is not a secret that Slytherin is unfavored, whether purposefully done or not, it has a reputation.
I think we'll still disagree here.
For Slytherin being unloved... idk the only moment I can think of is during the house cup for PS, where everyone cheered for Gryfindor winning, which is of course again children's book triumph thing, but if I'd give it deeper thought it'd probably be because Slytherins were known for cheating in quidditch, and they won the cup for seven years in a row by then.
but it isn't far fetched to say, especially after the war, that Slytherin house was very much demonized into this simple look,
But we don't see that aside from those two occasions, that comment by Hagrid, a known...immature adult, made in confidence to Harry, and the house cup.
But looking at the world and the people in power, I don't know. For example, we don't see the teachers treating Slytherin more harshly, same for the students (aside from Fred and George, which is a whooole other problem with their lethal pranks played only for laughs by the narrative), in fact Hufflepuff teamed up with Draco to bully Harry in GOF. and looking at the world beyond Hogwarts, Slytherin vs Gryffindor was only brought up by Snatchers during the war, and other than that we see Lucius having a position on the board of directors for Hogwarts and also being able to easily bribe the ministry, we also know that Fudge believed in the pureblood supremacy.
Same with Rita's articles, and we also never see her play or comment on the Slytherin vs Gryfindor/Hogwarts thing too.
(Edit: Perhaps also Ron's comments about what his parents would do if he was sorted in Slytherin, but then again we also see no prejudice from Arthur and Molly towards Slytherin, but then again... it still implies it a little. (Though there is that scene with Albus Severus, Harry and Ginny didn't seem to be against Slytherin, but James Sirius was--))
- and as far as can be seen, Severus is the only confirmed Slytherin on staff.
That is... a weird point. Using that we can say that Hufflepuff is even more persecuted no? Since At least Slytherin had both Slughorn and Snape for a year, while Hufflepuff only ever had Sprout as a confirmed Hufflepuf professor.
Same for Ravenclaw, without Pottermore then you'd only have Flitwick as a confirmed Ravenclaw professor, and with it, you can include Quirrell, and then the one year where Lockhart was a professor.
Whether Albus could have done more to unite the houses... really, there is just so many things we could say could have been done, like maybe he could have planned some more in-school things between Gryffindor and Slytherin that didn't immedietaly pit them against each other.
I am interested to hear more about this, Everything in Hogwarts pits every house against each other due to the points system, which is, as I hear, a typical thing in boarding schools then, perhaps collaborative activities could have been added then? Like what though? And would they have truly been able to help with the hostilities (However much those hostilities are there). Especially since as you said, it's more of a class issue, the kids at the end of the day would go back to their families to be influenced more, and then they'd go back to spend most of their time being with their own house.
Perhaps massively changing the house system and cup system... if the board of directors would let Dumbledore do that.
I will say that Dumbledore is one of the few people that have ever even vaguely talked about unity between houses
Dumbledore looked from Madame Maxime and Hagrid, to
Fleur Delacour and her fellow Beauxbatons students, to Viktor
Krum and the Durmstrangs at the Slytherin table. Krum, Harry
saw, looked wary, almost frightened, as though he expected Dumbledore to say something harsh.
“Every guest in this Hall,” said Dumbledore, and his eyes lingered upon the Durmstrang students, “will be welcomed back
here at any time, should they wish to come. I say to you all, once
again — in the light of Lord Voldemort’s return, we are only as
strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort’s gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can
fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and
trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our
aims are identical and our hearts are open.
Now this is more so about unity between countries rather than houses I admit, but the later line in OOTP by Hermione about the sorting hat's song for actual house unity recontextualizes this
“The point,” Hermione pressed on loudly, “is that this sort of thing
is exactly what Dumbledore was talking about. You-Know-Who’s
only been back two months, and we’ve started fighting among ourselves. And the Sorting Hat’s warning was the same — stand together,be united —
But still, what you said is fair in that we never see Dumbledore take steps on trying to decrease tension between houses.
I think what has grinded me the most is probably Dumbledore saying "Maybe we sort to soon" to Severus, as if to imply that maybe Severus' bravery or courageousness outweighs his Slytherin traits
I just took it as a compliment by Dumbledore on how brave Snape was there, as later echoed by Harry's "One of them was a Slytherin, and he was the bravest man I ever knew."
As in, it's less so saying "You're too brave for a Slytherin/only Gryfindors could be brave" and more so saying "Oh wow you have so much of Gryffindor's defining trait",
kind of like complimenting someone smart by saying that they should have been in Ravenclaw. Saying that would not be dismissing the other traits, but acknowledging just how big that one trait was shown there.
I don't understand the bravery fueled by cunning thing. It could be the opposite too, Snape had a goal, but everyone has a goal especially if it's protecting a loved one, perhaps Snape's bravery is what allowed him to carry out cunning and smart plans- the bravery fueled it.
Severus's goal could have been the one to fuel his bravery and cunning, or it could be the opposite, or perhaps, tying it to a central goal is too specific, and it was in fact Love that fueled all of Severus's traits, with love being not specific to any house and a motivator for many.
But I am obviously biased for Dumbledore, and I recognize that there are rooms for multiple interpretations here, we don't get more explanations on that line so yours could be just as real mine.
In regards to Harry being a legal adult by the time of his semi-death... its still a lot to ask a 17 year old of any country or culture.
Indeed it is, but it is a civil war that's deeply affecting both Harry and all his loved ones, there were no other options, and Dumbledore saw Harry's willingness to join the war before, especially when he tried to keep Harry from it.
He was almost primed to sacrifice himself to the wizarding world -- the world which became his home, his friends, and even family -- at a young age, in ways he shouldn't have had to go through
By the author? Yes.
By Dumbledore? I don't think so, looking through the books almost every action Dumbledore took either didn't contribute to Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself at all, or it actively opposed it even.
Dumbledore having Harry grow up with the Dursleys could have made him even more deeply mistrustful of all adults, it could have pre-disposed him to hating muggles and muggleborns, it could have made him have a deep will to live and no will to help anyone, it would have been far better for Dumbledore to raise Harry himself and slowly instill those ideas into him, and if Harry dies? Well, he was meant to die anyways no?
Each of Dumbledore's talks with Harry throughout the years instill Harry with confidence, Dumbledore doesn't let self doubt and hatred fester in Harry. He could have easily just let Harry believe that he is like Tom because of being a parselmouth and have Harry start to hate himself.
He could have not told Harry his speech about the dead staying with us in POA in an effort to have Harry long for his dead parents more.
He could have tried to separate Harry from Sirius (or his friends for that matter), but instead he actively facilitated their interactions such as with showing Sirius the cave in GOF and bringing SIrius to his office when Harry returned from the graveyard. With Dumbledore's talk with Harry after the graveyard also helping manage Harry's trauma a little.
Once or twice, Sirius made a noise as though about to say something, his hand still tight on Harry’s shoulder, but Dumbledore
raised his hand to stop him, and Harry was glad of this, because it
was easier to keep going now he had started. It was even a relief; he
felt almost as though something poisonous were being extracted
from him. It was costing him every bit of determination he had to
keep talking, yet he sensed that once he had finished, he would feel
better.
Dumbledore kept the prophecy from Harry for as long as possible instead of just telling Harry early, where he could have started subtly preparing Harry for a confrontation with Voldemort due to 'fate'. Instead, he refused to tell Harry the prophecy in a vain attempt to give Harry a normal life, which blew up in Dumbledore's face and caused Sirius's death.
In HBP when Harry started thinking that the prophecy was absolute and that he had no choice, Dumbledore started ranting about how prophecies don't always come true, and how it's everyone's choices that matter, Harry left that conversation with his head held high, when instead Dumbledore could have agreed and had Harry leave with a sense of resigned hopelessness.
That is not to say that Harry sacrificed himself because he was suicidal-- he wasn't, reading 'the forest again' you can see just how much Harry wanted to live, he sacrificed himself out of duty and love.
And while Dumbledore did indeed speak of love as a great power, it would not mean him priming Harry for death, because if that's the case then any parents raising their children with lessons about how important love is would then be considered them priming their kids too.
Oh, and yes, it is incredibly sad what Harry had to go through.
Now good lord this got on long enough (curse verbosity, i guess and damn thought detours).
No!! More verbosity! More Detours!
This was so fun to read!
And perhaps, he was stretched too thin. Had too many shoes to fill, and not enough feet, or even hands to do so (uh, pun unintended...?), and given too many roles to fill in.
:))
I'm saving this.
One of the most morbidly funny things to me is that it's DH, the book that's supposed to hammer in how Albus is not perfect and is only human, is also the book with the most god-like Dumbledore passages in the whole series, even the narrative puts him on an impossible pedestal.
Anyway, thank you, and have a good rest of your day/week!
You too!
And I think I owe you a bit of an apology, I re-read my first reblog, and it was a bit too aggressive, I'll have to work on toning that down a bit.
(Edits for grammar and spelling)
