ewk@rZen

www reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/ewk/writing

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Continuation of https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/1syju7o/zen_master_buddha/

“And knowledge and vision arose in me:”

Enlightenment is not peace or harmony.

Enlightenment doesn't help other people.

Enlightenment doesn't mean you don't need money for food.

Enlightenment is not going to earn you respect.

***Enlightenment is knowledge and vision.***

# Enlightenment surprises, pwns, and upsets.

Here are three koans (historical transcripts of public interviews given by real Buddhas, not sutra-stition mythological supernatural bugaboos). Koans are *real people and the real conversations they really had*. This is one of the 10,000 things that makes Zen entirely incompatible with Buddhism, and the Buddhist fanfic sutras.

### Zhaozhou surprises himself

> A monk asked, "Without pointing to a Dharma, what is your Dharma?"

The master said, "I don't expound the Dharma of the Taoists."

The monk said, "You don't expound the Dharma of the Taoists,

hut what is your Dharma?"

The master said, "I told you, I don't expound the Dharma of the

Taoists."

The monk said, "That's it, isn't it?"

The master said, "I've never used that to instruct people."

Zhaozhou is SURPRISED by his own knowledge. That's something real knowledge does. You have the answer before you think it out.

### Soto Zen: Public Pwnmaxxing

> the Master said, "I don't inquire about the realm of the Buddha or the realm of the Path; rather, what kind of person is he who talks thus about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?"

>

> When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?"

>

> Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do."

>

> "You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master.

>

> Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?"

Soto/Caodong founder Dongshan upset everybody. About everything. Read his record: *Record of Tung-shan*. Even the crappy translation can't disguise how he upset people BY KNOWING THINGS.

### Mazu Changed His Mind

> Mazu said, “This mind itself is Buddha.” Damei (“Great Plum”) studied this more than thirty years, dwelling on his mountain top, hiding his traces in the sounds of the valley and the colors of the mountain.

>

> The ancestor Mazu finally sent a monk to visit and say to Damei, “Mazu’s Buddha Dharma is different these days.” Damei responded, “How is it different?”

>

> The monk said, “No mind, no Buddha.”

>

> Damei said,“Even if he says ‘No mind,no Buddha,’ I just follow ‘This mind itself is Buddha.’” The monk returned and told the ancestor. Mazu said, “That plum is ripe.”

If all you can do is agree, that is submission to authority. Mazu was testing, because when you know the answers you can write the test.

# No Posers Zone

Religions are about submission to authority. Whether it's pseudo-Zen or performative r/Buddhism, submission is the heart of the practice.

Buddha's heart and Zen's practice is demonstrations of KNOWING.

No knowing, no enlightenment.

If you want something else from enlightenment: peace, empathy, kindness, security, confidence, then Enlightenment isn't what you are looking for.

If you want to know what it's like to put your hand on a hot stove, YOU HAVE TO DO IT. Just once.

One and done enlightenment.

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Dharma combat gets enlightenment, meditation is unhealthy.

In a thousand years of historical records. No Chinese master. Ever meditated to get enlightened.

Dozens of records of records celebrate enlightenment from Dharma combat:

\\# no record of any Zen master ever getting enlightened from meditation in a thousand years

Zero.

\\> Foyan, Instant Zen: People in error attach recognition to a lifetime of cessation. Indeed, they "stop" not only for one lifetime, but for a thousand lifetimes, myriad lifetimes. As for the spiritually sharp, they should know how to experientially investigate who "this person"is, directly seeking an insight."

.

\\> Touzi: I don't maintain sitting to bind you people. (Dahui's Shobogenzo)

More here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/notmeditation

\\# records of Zen Masters getting enlightened from Dharma combat

Deshan

Linji

Zhaozhou

Baizhang

Cuiyan

More here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/famous\\\_cases

\\# Zen is good for you even without enlightenment

The whole point to Dharma combat is to test yourself about what you know and why you think you know it. This exposes all kinds of superstitions and faith and social programming that would never never get excised from a person who went off and secretly pretended to be skeptical

\\# Japanese Zazen Religious meditation has been debunked by science.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-researchers-say-5186740

And consider that the people who got to the top of meditation excellence in the 1900s in the Japanese zazan religion. All turned out to be involved and epstein-like sex predator BS; www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators

More here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/meditation\\\_science

\\# Etymology of dermal combat

Jingde chuandeng lu (景德傳燈錄, compiled 1004), contains the phrase 克賓維那法戰不勝 — “Kebin the vinaya officer lost the dharma combat.” CBETA gives this in the Jingde Record of the Transmission of the Lamp at T51n2076, p. 295b.

Dharma combat could also be translated "legal battle".

Essentially, Dharma combat teaches you more about life than meditation because Dharma combat is a fight over the rules that we live by and the way we measure truth.

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/s/rn5FUenWvG

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Why I am not a Buddhist and Zen is not Buddhism

> Zen Master Huangbo: So, after his arrival from the West, Bodhidharma transmitted naught but the Dharma of the One Mind. He pointed directly to the truth that all sentient beings have

> always been of one substance with the Buddha.

>

> He did not follow any of those mistaken 'methods of attainment*.

>

>

# Zen Master Buddha: Not a snowflake

People who believe that Buddha had a special message all themselves Buddhists.

Zen Masters teach that Buddha was a Zen master like any other Zen master, that Buddha had no special message.

Bigger problem: Those who believe that Buddha had a special message *are interpreting Zen Master Buddha's teachings *assuming* the teaching is special.

Thinking someone has a unique mystical insight requires an additional belief: a supernatural element to make the teachings special.

It's like assuming your car keys were left in the house. You will never find the car keys under that assumption if you left them in your car.

If Zen Master Buddha is teaching ordinary mind then a belief in the specialness of his message means you are unable to understand that message as Zen Masters have explained it.

# No Zen Master Snowflakes

You wouldn't call yourself a Yunmen-ist or a Linji-ist or a Wumen-ist. If you did it would likely mean that you didn't understand those Masters' teachings.

In fact, if you called yourself a Wumenist that would mean that you were unable to understand his teaching which he put in the context of the Zen lineage, not of himself.

The very belief in a message being mystical or supernatural changes the interpretation of the message.

>

> Zen Master Huangbo: That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete. There is naught beside.

>

> Even if you go through all the stages of a Bodhisattva s progress towards Buddhahood, one by one; when at last, in a single lash, you attain to full

> realization, you will only be realizing the Buddha-Nature which has been with you all the time;

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What is meditation really doing to you?

# The word

> Dongshan was and Yantou and Qinshan were sitting quietly together. Dongshan went to get tea and brought it back. "Qinshan opened his eyes." Dongshan said: "Where have you gone and come from?"

Qinshan said: "I have come from entering Enlightenment." Dongshan said: "Samādhi is fundamentally without a gate — through what did you enter?" Then Dongshan said, " Give this drowsy fellow Qingshan some tea to drink." (Dongshan, Vol. 47, No. 1986B, p. 523a07).

# Background

1. Zen Masters reject meditation: www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/notmeditation, Zen Masters reject altered states.

* Just live your life. Be yourself. No supernatural. No altered consciousness.

* You are fine the way you are in Zen.

2. rZen has been collecting science about meditation, especially the under reported problems: https://www.reddit.com//r/zensangha/wiki/meditation_science

3. Soto Zen famously was started by a guy who rejected meditation: Dongshan, https://www.amazon.com/Record-Tung-Shan-Classics-Asian-Buddhism/dp/0824810708

4. A Japanese Zazen meditation cult that claimed it was based on Soto Zen was debunked in the 1990s by Stanford: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/secular_dogen

5. In the 60s, the Zazen cult, the LSD movement, and ex-Christian "Christian Humanists" all seemed to share a goal - A new human consciousness.

# Science today

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0329411

* Neurobiological substrates of altered states of consciousness induced by high ventilation breathwork accompanied by music.

What *IS* Opera, doc?

We now know that focal point meditation AND breathing funny meditation can have an LSD effect.

But we also now know that the brain is DOES NOT get "better" from altered states, with very very limited exceptions for single dose treatments followed by therapy.

AND we also have figured out that alchohol, LSD, and meditation all can be "off label" self medications for mental illness.

The picture that emerges is of a 60s failure in psychiatry driving people to self medicate with drugs and quasi-spiritual practices in order to address mental health problems, particularly involving addiction, ptsd, and chronic depression/anxiety.

* How do you sell people "YOU ARE FINE" in those circumstances?

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No such thing as Japanese Zen: How the West debunked Japanese claims about Indian-Chinese Zen

# Seeds of doubt

Scholars looking at Japanese meditation religions struggled throughout the 1900's to link meditation to Indian-Chinese Zen. Not only was there no record of meditation anywhere in Indian-Chinese "koan" historical records, Zen Masters from China repeatedly warned people the meditation was a dead end, particularly with regard to moral clarity and intellectual growth... which is what modern science has verified through scientific study.

1. No Masters and no koans from Japan

2. Zen's four statements suppressed in Japan in favor of Shinto and 8fP.

3. Taoist style Shinto versus Buddhism debates in Japan did not include Zen Masters' teachings.

> Master Yunmen said: "Walking, standing, sitting and reclining are not what the buddhist teaching is originally about. Nothing whatsoever---be it mountains or rivers or the earth or your dressing and eating day and night--- is what the Buddhist teaching is originally about. What's wrong with that?"

Lots more at https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/notmeditation

# Essential Soto Zen texts... no meditation

1. Dongshan's record - Dongshan is the founder of Soto Zen. Meditation methods rejected throughout the text.

2. Rujing's record - Rujing is the teacher Dogen claimed taught Zazen. No mention of Zazen or endorsement of meditation.

3. Wansong's Book of Serenity - a book of instruction written by a Soto Zen Master that quotes Zen historical records (koans). No mention of meditation practice.

Japanese meditation religions claimed to be Soto Zen... but the evidence all proved otherwise. The seeds of doubt were sown.

# Historical evidence

Zazen was entirely debunked in 1990 by Bielefeldt's work and repeating the steps that he went through makes it obvious why zazen was debunked.

1. No mention of any zen master from the previous 500 years in the first book written about Zazen, Dogen's book, thus no link to any authentic Zen tradition.

2. No mention of Zazen in Rujing's record, disproving Dogen's later attempts at revisionism. No meditation method found anywhere in a thousand years as in historical records

3. Clear evidence of plagiarism throughout Dogen's Zazen bible, no evidence linking the pamphlet Dogen he plagiarized to the Zen tradition.

It's a slam dunk that Zazen was an indigenous Japanese religion from the beginning.

On these grounds Zazen is obviously entirely incompatible with Zen.

# Doctrinal evidence

www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted

1. Documentation of Zen's sudden enlightenment historically rejects all methods.

2. Koans on Zen's sudden enlightenment historically reject all authorities that can give a method.

3. 1,000 years of history by Zen communities prove Zen's sudden enlightenment historically rejects all promises of outcomes/ attainments.

# Helping the Liberal MAGA Zazen out

Try finishing these sentences:

1. Dogen must have learned Zazen from Rujing *because*...

2. Zazen is never mentioned across *hundreds of years* of core texts of Soto Zen (Dongshan, Rujing, Wansong) *because*...

3. The Japanese Zazen "masters" that had Epstein sexual assaults www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators have lineages *because*...

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# Four Statements of Zen

> 謂之教外別傳。

> This is a separate transmission outside of teachings

>

> 單傳心印。

> Lineage transmission of the mind-seal

>

> 直指人心。

> Directly pointing to a person’s mind

>

> 見性成佛。

> See nature becoming Buddha. (Yuanwu, p.2)

# Why Japanese Shinto-Buddhists fear the Four Statements

1900's Buddhist academics struggled to acknowledge the central role of the Four Statements of Zen because the Four Statements were obviously opposed to everything that Japanese Shinto-Buddhism had become by the mid 1900's.

Where the Japanese Critical [Authentic] Buddhists argued that the sutras laid out the rules for life, Shinto-Buddhism was about worship, not rules. It was the Shinto-Buddhists (like Shunryu Suzuki and Thich Hahn) that evangelized to the West, and Shinto-Buddhism's attacks on Zen and on Critical [Authentic] Buddhism were essential to the legitimacy of Shinto-Buddhism. Why? Because Shinto-Buddhism has no historical authenticity at all. Shinto-Buddhism is indigenous to Japan, whereas Critical [Authentic] Buddhism has a mythological bible in the sutras and Zen has a historical record in the koans. Zen and Critical [Authentic] Buddhism come from India, but Shinto-Buddhism is a new religion from Japan. In Japanese history authenticity is only for the historical; the modern world's delight at the indigenous is a new perspective on religions and history.

# Propaganda against the Four Statements

Critical [Authentic] Buddhists and their predecessors in Chinese Buddhism tried to attack Zen doctrinally by suggesting that "outside teachings" meant that all the talking and writing Zen Masters did and do was contradictory. This attack relies on conflating *teachings* and *transmission*, which in Buddhism are conflated into a formula of religious education + faith. But in Zen these are not conflated, nor are they conflated in real life.

In real life you get a recipie that tells you what to do, but only in cooking the recipie over and over do you get real life experience of that recipie, of how to tailor it to your taste, an experience and tailoring WHICH CANNOT BE TAUGHT.

# Guardians of Enlightenment

Zen Masters don't see themselves as teachers; Zen Masters see themselves a guards at the checkpoint to Enlightenment.

That's why pubic interview is the only practice of Zen: Zen Masters use public interview to check your enlightenment before they allow you to pass, to cross over into Enlightenment and the lineage.

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ZEN OF THE FIST

# Zen Master Buddha - Open Hand

First it's essential that we acknowledge the context... Zen Masters consider the historical figure Shakamuni Buddha, to be a regular guy with no special knowledge who got Zen enlightened and became Zen Master Buddha. He wasn't more important or more authoritative than any other Zen master.

Here's some stuff I got from Claude about the fist parable:

> The key passage comes from the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (DN 16), the Buddha's final discourse, spoken to Ānanda near the end of his life. The Buddha tells Ānanda: "I've taught the Dhamma without making any distinction between secret and public teachings. The Realized One doesn't have the closed fist of a teacher when it comes to the teachings."

>

The Pali phrase is ācāriyamuṭṭhi — literally "teacher's fist" — referring to the common ancient Indian practice where a guru would withhold certain teachings from students, revealing them only to a favored disciple on their deathbed. As one commentary explains, "in the outside world there is something called the closed fist of a teacher: while they are young they do not tell anybody, but when they are on their deathbed, in their last moments, they speak to a favorite disciple."

# Mazu - Zen's Secret Fist

> “A monk asked Mazu, ‘What is Buddha?’ He said, ‘Mind itself is Buddha.’

[The monk] asked, ‘What is the Way?’ He said, ‘No-mind is the Way.’

[The monk] asked, ‘How far apart are Buddha and the Way?’

He said, ‘Buddha is like opening the hand; the Way is like clenching the fist.’” �

What he means here is... basically another clenched fist.

But obviously Indian-Chinese Zen has no connection to worshiping Buddha, believing in the Holiness of Buddha's teaching, or the indigenous Japanese religion of Zazen prayer-meditation.

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Fun with Zen Flags! More New York than you thought

A stand-up comic explains New York cultured people in ways that sound a lot like explaining Zen culture to people. Not mean, "Aggressively kind"

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/s/9sFiXTBQzu

https://youtu.be/JR5eJMYWCiI this is a standup comic *from* New York making fun of New York. That right there is all some people need to know. If you make fun of California, you are a republican. If you make fun of Texas, you read the Constitution. But only people from New York get to make fun of New York. Just like Zen, right? Let's get into it.

1. Not mean... We're aggressively kind

* A monk asked Zhaozhou, what are true words? Zhaozhou said, Yo mamma is ugly.

1. We can't stand lost looking people

* A monk asked Mazu, Why do you teach that Mind is Buddha? Mazu said, to stop crybabies from crybabying.

1. Know the rules before you get there

* The only other kind of forum where reading the sidebar matters? Forums about the opposite of their name.

* The next day [the monk who put himself in charge] suddenly passed away. At that time [Dongshan, found of Soto and Caodong] came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death."

1. Mind your business

* Monks from the East and West were fighting over a cat. Nanquan told them, say a word of Zen or I kill this cat.

1. Midwest to New York is a tough move... Brooklyn is not a starter borough

* I'm new to Zen and I think Buddhism is believable and meditation is helpful! What should I read? ***Not Huangbo... he's not a starter Zen Master.***

* Huangbo: "So long as you are concerned with ‘by means of’, you will always be depending on something false. When will you ever succeed in understanding? Instead of observing those who tell you to open wide both your hands like one who has nothing to lose, you waste your strength bragging about all sorts of things... The arising and the elimination of illusion are both illusory."

True story. No caps.

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/famous_cases

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Zen: The antidote for pretending to be someone you are not

There are lots of ways of pretending to be someone you are not. We get a ton of people in here who have low levels of education but they try to use google-bot-chatty-prompt to pretend they read a book. It never works. The poison of ignorance is not only about not knowing facts, ignorance is ALWAYS ALWAYS about not having REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. Think about anybody you've known, any place you've gone, any book you enjoyed, and the facts ARE SECONDARY. The REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE is what ignorance doesn't have. There isn't any question that remaining ignorant is poison. People who refuse to fall in love... can you imagine wanting that kind of ignorance in particular?

Here is an interesting riff on that topic... Zen Master Zhaozhou (Joshu to the ignorant), BEFORE he was enlightened, trying to smack talk a Zen Master:

> As Zhaozhou entered the Master Nanquan's room, Nanquan was lying down resting. The master asked, “Where have you come from?”

> Zhaozhou replied, “I've just been staying at the Standing Buddha Statue Temple.”

> Nanquan asked, “Did you see the famous statue?”

> Zhaozhou said, “No, but I see a reclining buddha [right now, looking at Nanquan lying down].”

> Nanquan sat up and asked, “Are you a novice with a teacher, or none?”

> Zhaozhou replied, “I have a teacher.”

> Nanquan asked, “Who is your teacher?”

> Zhaozhou said, “In the cold of this mid-winter, I am happy to see you enjoying good health, teacher.”

> Master Nanquan told the attendant to show Zhaozhou to the cafeteria.

Zhaozhou is not pretending to be someone else... he was then and always would be a pain in the ass. He isn't pretending he isn't. But he is also not pretending to be enlightened, not pretending he has had that real life experience. Zhaozhou, being himself. This isn't just about keeping the precepts... it's that you have direct experience of BEING YOU IN THE WORLD. It's like you wear a suit all the time. I use to wear suits every single day. Brooks Brothers Identity. It's wonderful because nobody sees you. They only see the suit. If you change to a different outfit, for example if you wear a badge, people see the badge. How people react to badge or suit is what you have experience of. If you start dressing in monk's robe, you'll have new real life experience of that. What you want is REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE of being yourself. What happens when you are you all the time?

People think they can come into this forum and make stuff up. People pretend to be someone who can debate, who studies history, people pretend they have read books and had REAL LIFE BOOK EXPERIENCE, where they learned facts and had a direct experience with a text. It's not just that they are ignorant, they are not-themselves-ignorant.

It's one thing to pretend to be someone who loses a debate when you say things you don't mean, don't understand, and don't have personal experience of. It's a whole other ball game to lose a debate when you are talking about your authentic genuine self and the books you've read and the life you want to be real... and it isn't.

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Why Zen's only practice is public interview: Authentic Indian-Chinese Zen vs Indigenous Japanese Zazen... and where koans really come from.

Lots of people come in here having heard of Zazen. They have been told by the Zazen church that Zazen is Zen. Like Mormons telling people that Mormonism is Christianity. Or Scientologists telling people that there is a historical record of aliens.

Zazen was debunked in 1990 by Stanford scholarship proving that Zazen is an indigenous Japanese religion, which is the modern secular consensus. This means that religious scholars will still say whatever the church tells them to say, like what you'd hear about Mormonism from a Mormon college is different than what you hear about Mormonism from a State college.

But it's not just that Zazen has been historically debunked. Zazen was never even close to what Zen is about.

# The Zen Magic Formula

Zen is super cool because it doesn't have only one Magic Formula. Famous Masters have explained Zen's Magic Formula different ways, and these ways were all cool, and became a Zen Magic Formula because of how insightful these Masters were. 7th Patriarch "Mind is Buddha", Bodhidharma "Emptiness with Nothing Holy", Zhaozhou's "No Buddha Nature, No Practice, No Nothing", Xiangyan's "True Poverty". I could go on.

The real kicker is that these formulas ALL SPRANG FROM PUBLIC INTERVIEW. The Zen Masters didn't formulate them in secret, or write them in a church backroom for a sermon. These magic formulas all arose spontaneously in live interviews. And then became history. And then became koans.

# Huineng's Magic Formula

Huineng was the upstart who didn't know anything about Zen. When his teacher was picking a successor, everybody thought it would be the class president high school football star that got picked, not Huineng the lowly fast food worker. There was a poetry contest, and the class president wrote a poem that said ***Time and again brush it clean, And let no dust alight.***. This is what Buddhists do with merit-karma practice, and what the indigenous Japanese Zazen religion does with meditation. They are trying to polish their souls into pure goodness.

Huineng's poem said what we are all thinking:

> The bright mirror has no stand.

> Originally there is not a single thing;

> Where can dust alight?

The is no "dust" of sin or karma or being a bad person. So in Zen, there is no reason to polish your soul.

There is no such "dirty soul" to polish. THERE IS NO PRACTICE TO IMPROVE.

The public interview that the 5th Patriarch started with the poetry contest proved who was Zen and who was church nutbaker.

As public interview always does.

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/s/oFbuDKe0d0

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No, there is no Zen meditation. There are no texts supporting claims of Zen meditation. Meditation is antithetical to the Zen teaching. The two were combined by an indigenous Japanese called claiming to be both Rinxai.amd Soto, but these claims by indigenous Japanese religions were largely debunked in the late 1900s.

Meditation is (1) a technique (2) given by authority (3) promising a result. Zen Masters have attacked all three of these aspects of religious doctrine, rejecting techniques and authorities and results in separate lines of reasoning.

You likely read a mistranslation somewhere because it was popular in the 1900s to mistranslate several different words as "meditation" for the Western religious audiences of the time.

Keep in mind that words like meditation, prayer, love, and Buddhism were often abused by translators employing the vagueness fallacy to appeal to religious audiences of the mid-1900s..

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It's a good question. I take all questions as a policy. This question is complicated because there are two parts; what is the truth and who's been lying?

# the truth about Zen practice

1. We have a thousand years of Zen records called koans from China that date from around 500 to around 1600. There is no meditation practice in these records. Zen Masters instead warn against meditation throughout these records.

2. Meditation is (a) a technique (b) given by an authority (c) promising a result. Zen Masters reject all three of these elements as matters of doctrine.

3. The only practice in the Zen historical record is the practice of answering questions publicly in public interviews. This is why koans were recorded. In Zen you are obligated to answer questions publicly if you are enlightened.

# who's been lying to you?

It's important to understand that most lies begin out of a desperate need. After world war II, Japan was fighting to survive as a culture and a country. I think we can all agree that the loss of Japan's culture would have been a devastating loss on the human scale. The downside is that just as Japanese culture was fighting to survive, Japanese cults saw an opportunity to take advantage of people.

1. An indigenous Japanese cult that claimed to be Zen Rinzai and Soto (it's actually one cult) falsely claimed their coercive and fraudulent meditation was a Zen practice in the west in the 1900s. They even graduated a number of Western professors from universities in Japan that had seminary PhD programs.

2. Two religious West New age groups in the west that were fighting for recognition embraced this Japanese cult: Alan Watts style Christian humanism, and LSD Huxley style perennialism. The three groups had some common goals and developed a mutual respect society.

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ZEN KOAN ARE TRANSCRIPTS: Historical records of real life conversations

# indigenous Japanese war on Zen

During the 1900s you know back when there were no computers and women didn't have the right to vote and it was still acceptable to destroy civilizations, Buddhists and indigenous Japanese religions tried to destroy Zen.

one of their strategies was convincing people that Zen history was mythological. there were two reasons this was essential for Buddhists and indigenous Japanese religions:

1. Buddhism had been unable to compete with Zen in China because Buddhism (like Christianity) was all about superstition and myth from a time before history... miracle magic X-Men powers are the basis of both Buddhism and Christianity.

* Zen has real people in real life doing real s***

2. Indigenous Japanese religions wanted to assert authority over other Asian traditions by claiming to be inheritors of Buddhism and Zen. this was part of a pattern Japanese culture in general, as Japanese culture fought for survival.

* In order for Japanese indigenous religions to be legit, they had to prove convince everyone that Indian and Chinese records were nothing more than propaganda.

# International academia at war with itself

Two major assaults on indigenous Japanese religions and international Buddhism toward the end of the 1900s set the stage for the collapse of the anti-Zen narrative:

1. The Japanese Critical Buddhism movement advocated a return to fundamentals in Buddhist academia: catechism, primary sources, and clear doctrinal positions argued from a historical perspective. The Shinto- Buddhists and Western academics with degrees from Shinto-Buddhism universities in Japan stumbled.

2. From within the Zazen religion, Stanford scholarship by Bielefeldt the fraudulent origin story of Zazen and massive fraud by the Zazen messiah. Western academia had no choice; Zazen is now acknowledged to be an indigenous Japanese religion.

# What are koans?

Zen existed as an entirely unique and independent culture in China for more than a thousand years. Zen communities spent a significant percentage of their resources recording and disseminating records of the daily interactions of their community leaders who they considered Buddhas. Generation after generation. these records were recopied and redistributed. The historical quality of these records was audited and debated.

There is overwhelming evidence that these records were preserved and studied for their historical value only; given that it was accepted after only a few hundred years that there would be new Buddhas every generation, older records were not considered any more authoritative than newer records.

One of the things that stands out in Zen koan historical records is a willingness to record events which do not seem to have much. doctrinal value. in fact, one could argue that the bulk of the historical records called koans appear to have little or no relevance to any doctrinal position that Zen Buddhas used to contrast themselves with Confucianism taoism or any of the Buddhist religions.

> The monk said: “Where is the old monk going?”.

> Zhaozhou said: “To the eastern latrine.”

> The monk said: “May this student follow along or not?”

> The master said: “If you understand, then I permit you to follow.”

The large volume of these "everyday" records underscores the role of record keeping in Zen culture. the availability of these records and the Buddhas that generated them generation after generation accounts for the enduring popularity of Zen in Chinese culture for $1,000 years.

Unlike Buddhism and Christianity, which are worshiping supernatural events invented thousands of years and cultures apart from the followers, Zen offered the Chinese generation after generation of new Zen Buddhas who considered themselves obligated to meet every question that each successive generation could invent.

# academic headache

Unlike religions like Buddhism and Christianity which have no new prophets, no new sacred texts, Zen poses a huge challenge to academics trying to study its history. What exactly do Zen Masters teach?

How do we compare the records of Mazu's formal audiences with the records of Zhaozhou going to the toilet? How do we identify academically what the most important and definitive texts are, so that Zen can be contrasted with Christianity and Buddhism and Taoism and Existentialism and Absurdism and Utilitarianism?

It's a problem that the Zen community themselves grappled with for a thousand years in China; it's a problem that has given us a deluge of everyday koans.

[ewkrzen]

Zen Enlightenment vs MAGA Buddhists

American is waking up to corruption in the Republican party, but as usual Democrats and Liberals don't want to face the fact that they are part of the problem. There is no right handed scandal that hasn't got a left handed version. From cognitive cover ups to sex scandal cover ups to civil rights violations to wars on minorities, both parties indulge. It's an American problem, not a "just them" problem.

That's why Buddhism is so inherently MAGA. MAGA Buddhists do all the things that MAGA itself does, but MAGA Buddhists pretend they are the good guys... oh wait, all of MAGA pretends they are the good guys. Same = same.

# only read/watch ur own propaganda

If you go to any forum or website named after Zen or Buddhism or awakening or enlightenment, you'll see **the Fox News Rule: only the local propaganda.** These forums don't stray from their own brand of BS. They don't quote academics or even challenge academia. They don't explain how other views are different. It's all their own Fox News all the time.

What Enlightened does

Bodhidharma met with Emperor Wu of Liang, who asked,

"How much Buddhist Merit have I earned?"

Bodhidharma said "none".

.

**Zen Enlightened hears all the different claims.

# deny the history of other cultures

If you go to any forum or website named after Zen or Buddhism, it's all about how there is no culture but MAGA Buddhism. There isn't a discussion of real life history, it's all MAGA distoritions. How many forums or websites acknowledge sutras vs sutras? Zen vs Sutras? Propaganda vs fact? It's all denial, all the time.

What gets quoted is 1900's versions of "history", and nothing else. It's 2026. How come I'm pwning these bozos loser beliefs from the 1960's?

What Enlightened does

Nanquan said to a Buddhist lecturer "What Sutra are

you lecturing on?"

The Buddhist replied, "The Nirvana Sutra."

Nanquan said, "Won't you explain it to me?"

The Buddhist said, "If I explain the sutra to you,

you should explain Zen to me."

Nanquan said, "A golden ball is not the same

as a silver one."

.

** Zen Enlightened admits of differences.

# refuse to debate publicly

MAGA is all about platforming their own views and deplatforming everybody else. That's why there isn't any debate in MAGA, or in MAGA Buddhism. You don't see any space for "what books say". Buddhism is as MAGA as MAGA. That's why it appeals to Americans on both sides of the isle.

What Enlightened does

Someone standing below asks, 'What is the meaning

of the teaching from the West [India]?' If they

do not answer, they fail to meet the question.

- Xiangyan

.

**Zen Enlightened means YOU MEET QUESTIONS.

[ewkrzen]

Zen culture is big into recording transcripts of Zen public debates (koans). Zen Masters wrote books of instruction using these transcripts as starting points. We have transcripts across about a thousand years and books of instruction across about 500 years. We even have books of instruction written by Masters that are really sophisticated annotations of other Masters books of instruction.

We have a really clear idea of the thousand years of Zen history, especially when it comes to what Zen culture thinks of itself and says about itself over time.

There is no record of any zen master ever teaching the eightfold path or the four noble truths, which are the foundation of Buddhist faith. This is the tip of the iceberg of doctrinal disputes between Buddhism and Zen. Zen has a long history of entirely rejecting Buddhist faith-based teachings on impermanence, causality, merit/karma, wisdom, supernatural truth/authority, practice, and virtue. For starters.

Zen Masters said for a thousand years of records that Buddha was a zen master and not the person buddhist's claim had supernatural powers and taught the eight-fold path.

There is no argument for a relationship between Zen and Buddhism.

This was further complicated by indigenous Japanese religions claiming to represent Indian-Chinese Zen. There were a lot of reasons for these claims by Japanese churches, and its undeniably lucrative for them to make these claims.

But scholarship in the west over the last 30 years has debunked most of Japanese religious claims about Indian-Chinese Zen.

What makes this more weird and complicated is that within the context of Japanese churches writing/talking about their own beliefs *in Japanese*, it's clear that Japanese churches understand that their religion is an indigenous creation of their own.

But when it comes to representing themselves to the west and marketing their religion in the west, suddenly get a little bit less forthright both in terms of doctrine and in terms of the history of their religion.

[ewkrzen]

# Zen enlightenment is show me, not tell me

A couple of times a year people DM me to tell me they think they are enlightened.

More often, people comment in one of my threads about how they "believe" some guru or meditation teacher or Christian Humanist (Watts, Joko Beck, etc) is enlightened.

I usually reply that enlightenment in Zen is a "show me" not a "tell me".

This time I added that enlightenment is also inherently able to test for enlightenment, inherently able to recognize enlightenment. Students and academics can tell who *isn't* enlightened by reasoning and argument, but this doesn't work for affirming enlightenment.

I said: If you've lived in Paris, you can tell through conversation if someone else has lived in Paris, or whether they just watched a movie about Paris.

# Guishan and Yangshan, Dongshan and Caoshan

Here are two examples of famous teachers and their equally famous students, people who know each other better than most family members:

> Guishan said to Yangshan: "All that's important is that your eye is correct. I won't talk about your practice"

Why does Guishan say this? Why not just tell Yangshan "I think ur enlightened".

When Caoshan is leaving Dongshan's school, Dongshan asks him:

> Dongshan said: Where are you going? Caoshan said: To an unchanging place. Dongshan said: If there is going, how can it be unchanging?

Why does Dongshan ask this? Why don't they just tell each other how they think they are enlightened?

[ewkrzen]

One of the conflicts between Zen and religions, including Buddhism and new age Awakening and Zazen prayer-meditation and Tibetan Buddhism and the Forrest Thai and so is mechanics.

there's a reason for this.

religions at the end of the day are about blind faith. religions are about believing in things because you feel those things should be true.

Zen enlightenment has always been about kicking ass in public.

Zen enlightenment likes to show off. at least it seems that way to religious people because they don't have anything to show off and so showing off.

from Zen Masters' perspective, the Zen practice of public interview (which is where the historical record of koans comes from) is about demonstrating the truth and effectiveness of Zen master Buddha's teaching.

\# Zen pwning is preaching the Dharma

https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/famous\_cases/

\> When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?"

\> Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do."

\> "You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master.

\> Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?"

in this exchange the master could be described by a Christian or a Buddhist as somebody who's being mean or showing off...

but the Zen gave this legendary Master the founder of Soto Zen the legendary Dongahan the nickname:

\# kills senior monks with questions

The nickname was kind of you know overly dramatic cuz it was just the one guy... point remains that this public questioning and the demonstration that it so clearly was is the mark of enlightenment.

\# get the mechanic. forget the enlightenment

this is the problem that religions want to sweep under the rug. . especially Western new agers and zazen worshipers.

what does enlightenment do??

if enlightenment is just a feeling like everything's going to be okay then churches all churches can do that.

but if enlightenment is you stand up and start swinging and even senior monks and Buddhas are killed by what you have to say?

Buddhism can't do that that's why Zen ran Buddhism out of China. Zazen has never done that, that's why they tell people to shut up because when people debate Zazen looks pretty lame.

people who want enlightenment and people who want to claim that their feelings make them an authority on a thousand years Zen debate culture?

let them put their goddamn quarter up.

No AMAs? no enlightenment.

feelings of peace and Harmony are nothing but the bottom of a bottle.