ex-TERFs, I love you

icannotgetoverbirds

to ex-radfems:

hey! i didn't realize there was so many of y'all here on tumblr! I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to say about it, because, well, I thought we were much fewer and further between.

I think there are a few things worth saying, though.

Here's a resource for you. In addition, while I don't participate in discourse too often, I'm happy to provide perspective to good-faith questions, and to learn from you and what you've picked up along your journey.

I am proud of you for your growth. This is a really difficult thing - radical feminism targets vulnerable people who aren't equipped with the tools to understand its many issues. I hesitate to call any political system a cult, but as a cult survivor myself, there are parallels.

I know that the guilt is difficult. I was relatively harmless as a TERF since I rarely spoke up about it, but what little I did perpetuate, I regret. The things I've done in the name of beliefs that held me instead of me holding them still haunt me, radfem-related or not.

You are not alone. This is important.

Some people will not forgive you. Some people cannot forgive you. You may have trouble forgiving yourself. It's okay. It takes time, and what's most important is that you're here now, and you understand how to move forwards.

This is a safe space for former/deconverting radfems. I block easily, because I need to keep this a safe space for myself as well, but I want you to know that I'm going to do my best to make this space open to people who are willing to learn.

Honestly, at this rate, I might make a sideblog about being a former radfem - I'll add it to my pinned post if I do.

Anyways. I share some of this experience with you. I know it can be difficult, coming to terms with both your past and what this means for the future. I know it takes work. I know.

Most importantly, it's going to be okay.

Some people really just wake up and say words to me.

Like I care lmao.

I think the real moment I went ‘peak TERF’ was when I saw genuine debate about whether it was morally acceptable to give birth to an assigned male child in the radfem tags. I’ve got everyone involved in the post blocked now so I couldn’t find it again even if I wanted to but… goddamn.

It just shook me. I stared at it for a while, rereading the post again and again and I just thought “what am I doing?” One of the users who commented on that post proposed that women should be able to legally abort AMAB fetuses with no questions asked and no repercussions, which to me completely misses the point of abortion rights while also being unspeakably horrible.

And I realized that this was the community I had thrown my lot in with. I was supporting this echo chamber that had spent so long alienating the outside that they’d turned to meaningless, detached, and frankly sadistic discourse like this.

I was already on my way out of radical feminism at that point, but that was the final nail in the coffin.

#srb #self reblog #nessa.txt

Image Description

Two replies to this post. The first is from @butchhazard and the second is from @transmascrage.

Butchhazard says "women talking about *abortion* peaked you? You were obviously never a feminist if that's the case lmfao"

In response to butchhazard's reply, transmascrage says "women talking about aborting on the basis of the fetus being male is what got to them. Which, by the way, is what the Chinese government did for a long time and that was definitely anti-feminist, but when y'all say shit like that to men it's okay? Maybe stop assuming men are evil since birth and we'll be able to educate them better and actually make a change."

End ID

First of all, butchhazard, the discussion wasn't actually about abortion, and that was an example of one specific comment that caught my eye. The discussion was about how women who don't abort AMAB babies are anti-feminist and contributing to their own oppression. Abortion was a component, but it was not the actual focus of the post.

Secondly, it's exactly like transmascrage said (and I appreciate you standing up for me). There is a massive difference between "women should have legally protected access to sage abortions for any reason" which is an idea fundamental to my feminism, and "any pregnant person who doesn't want to know the sex of their baby, or who has an AMAB baby they actually want, is actively contributing to misogyny" which is an absolutely unhinged take that anyone who has a conception of the real world would not be able to genuinely support.

"Women should be able to abort AMAB fetuses no questions asked" completely misses the point of reproductive protections. Pregnant people should be able to abort ANY fetus with no questions asked, because that is literally what abortion rights means. Singling out AMAB fetuses does two things: A, it indicates that you still think women and men are unequal because B, you're implying that doctors SHOULD ask questions when someone wants to abort an AFAB fetus.

Not to mention that if every person who gets pregnant with an AMAB baby aborts it, there will be no more pregnancies and the entire human race would die off. Didn't think I'd have to explain this to the "it's basic biology" crowd.

I should probably post something about the leak but to be honest, there's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said better by people much smarter than me.

Even if there were, I don't know that I'd have the energy. It's taken me three days to formulate this miserable little excuse post. I feel hollowed-out and empty, and I am grieving. I'm grieving the country I wanted to believe I lived in. I am grieving my faith in humanity. I'm grieving my trust in the Supreme Court.

I'm grieving for all the women and other people with uteruses who have already been forced to sacrifice the lives they wanted because they were denied crucial healthcare. I'm grieving for all the people with uteruses who will inevitably have to face that choice as a result of this decision.

I want to be angry, but I'm not. I don't think I have it in me right now. At best, I'm scared. And tired. The trauma of constantly fighting to even be recognized as a person is sure as hell catching up with me. I want to be done, but I'm never fucking done.

All of which is to say, I'm marching on the 14th, and I hope against hope I don't get murdered.

#nessa.txt #long post #ab0rtion #reproductive rights #scotus #feminism #feminist #too tired to tag

This week has been hard for me what with the onslaught of ableism and rape threats and general vitriol in my notes. When these things happen, the BPD identity confusion gets activated and I end up having to fight the urge to sacrifice my morals and rejoin a group that abused me mercilessly for a year.

But today I heard Elliot Page speak at the Academy Awards and I cried. His voice is so amazing and he sounds so good. Being able to witness that solidified for me again that I am doing the right thing.

Trans joy is beautiful and valuable, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise 💙💗🤍💗💙

#nessa.txt #trans #transgender #nonbinary #transmasc #transmaculine #trans man #trans boy #trans guy #ftm #elliot page #trans lives matter #trans rights #trans rights are human rights

Just to add to the afab exes terfing out discussion. There’s an awful book called “you told me you were different” self published by a raging transmisogynist which CLAIMS to be a collection of works by afabs abused by trans woman. If it’s actually true and not astroturfed it just shows how some afabs can’t handle having strong feelings towards us without turning it into bigotry when the relationship breaks up.

Ugh

I didn’t communicate this well but my ‘ugh’ is related to the wording of this ask.

There’s something reasonable in here — the point that some cis women have in the past used trauma by men and/or trans women as an excuse to hate the entire group — but the way anon presents this is 100% not okay. This ask makes it seem like it’s totally fine to assume women are lying about abuse when they disagree with you on something unrelated, and guess what that is?

Mentions of SA and CSEC under the cut

Can you show me where I did that aside from this post? Cause I’m trying to correct the mistake I made in not actively condemning this ask when I posted it.

Just to add to the afab exes terfing out discussion. There’s an awful book called “you told me you were different” self published by a raging transmisogynist which CLAIMS to be a collection of works by afabs abused by trans woman. If it’s actually true and not astroturfed it just shows how some afabs can’t handle having strong feelings towards us without turning it into bigotry when the relationship breaks up.

Ugh

I didn’t communicate this well but my ‘ugh’ is related to the wording of this ask.

There’s something reasonable in here — the point that some cis women have in the past used trauma by men and/or trans women as an excuse to hate the entire group — but the way anon presents this is 100% not okay. This ask makes it seem like it’s totally fine to assume women are lying about abuse when they disagree with you on something unrelated, and guess what that is?

Mentions of SA and CSEC under the cut

Alright, I’m going to ask this in a general way, What is a woman? What is wrong with the “woman = adult human female” view? I say this bc I saw a meme that said “Conservatives: female = woman = ‘girly things’ TRA: woman = “girly things” Radfem: female = woman” Idk it’s all so confusing, I’m anti-TERF too but I just want to know how you would respond to that-

I can’t answer that first question because there is no one definition for what makes a woman. However, I can explain the reductiveness of the statement that a woman is an adult human female.

Lots of cis women are female, in the sense that their bodies produce ova. But (and I know I use this example a lot) Laur @terfsarehomophobic is a cis women whose body does not produce ova, and has explicitly stated that the TERF definition of female does not apply to her.

However, she identifies as a woman and her doctor assigned her as female at birth. So… what else would you call her?

Intersex people are our own group and while our experiences often intersect with those of trans people (especially in cases of intersex trans people like myself) our existence does not validate or invalidate the existence of trans folk; they’re not the same thing. We are two separate marginalized groups.

“Woman” is a social construct, which means it can literally mean whatever you want. My personal connection to womanhood is more about community — my relationships with other women and the ways that my socialization has inevitably affected them — than it is about any part of my biology. Other women have their own definitions of womanhood and all of them can exist in the same space. Even the ones that I personally don’t understand (like “being a woman is about looking feminine” which I personally don’t get because you can present any way while being any gender) or agree with (such as “woman = adult human female”) can still be real for other women who are not me.

Personally, I don’t find any value in tying my womanhood to my oppression. I don’t define my gender by my reproductive organs because my reproductive organs are the only thing I’ve been valued for my entire life. I find that misogynistic to force upon me.

I hope that helps.

intersexelphie

The issue that I have with the way they use “woman = adult human female” is not just the transphobia they use along with it and the fact their definition of female often excludes a lot of intersex women, it’s also that they treat it like a word of law rather than the vague generalised definition that it is.

Yes, most women are female. That doesn’t mean all of us are or have to be.

And they will argue ‘well you were assigned female at birth’ to say they actually do think of me as a woman, but the reason for that was purely my genitals. I don’t have ova and I don’t have two full sets of X chromosomes, so it wasn’t because of either of those things. It’s because of how my genitals look.

So when they say “woman = adult human female”, what they mean is “woman = adult vagina”. They just realise how that sounds so will jump through hoops to try and not say that, which ends up messy.

Image Description

Two reblogs on this post, displayed in tumblr dark mode.

The first is from user the-land-of-women and it reads “Intersex women are still female. Women without ova are still female. This definition literally only excludes male people”

The second comment is from use femeren. It says “I… this is the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. If I have to remove a kidney does that mean humans no longer have two kidneys? Is there a spectrum of kidney having? Was my body not built to accommodate 2 kidneys? I don’t understand this argument. Being infertile =/= being another sex.”

End ID

Yes, that is exactly what we’re fucking saying. Assigned females without ovaries are still female. And all the TERFs I’ve spoken to understand that, but they still cling to the definition of female that requires the production of a specific gamete.

I don’t remember whose post it was but I saw one somewhere that summed it up really well, and it said something like this.

TERFs: female means your body produces ova!

Intersex women: my body doesn’t produce ova, but I’m still female right?

TERFs: yeah you are.

Intersex women: why?

TERFs: …

You can’t say “here’s the definition of female, and here’s a bunch of people who don’t fit that definition but are still female because I said so” without sounding like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

The point Laur and I are trying to make is that there is no definition of femaleness that will include every assigned female person, and as such we need multiple definitions.

Humans don’t fit into neat boxes! That’s not how we work! Trying to force us to creates divides that hurt everyone.

Also funny that I’ve been accused of logical fallacy several times today but this very clear straw man about kidneys goes completely uncriticized.

intersexelphie

I can’t tag femeren but how the fuck is me being born without ova and born with some of my second X chromosomes missing…comparable to someone born with two kidneys having one removed?

This shows their fundamental misunderstanding of what intersexism actually is and that they will literally grasp at straws to try and make comparisons that are in no way fitting at all.

And a human body is not ‘built to accommodate’ anything. Bodies are…built to survive. You can survive with one kidney the same way I can survive without a functioning reproductive system so…? Idk what the point is there.

And no one is saying being infertile makes me a different sex and there are infertile people who aren’t intersex at all. I’m saying because of my lack of ova and missing chromosomes, I do not fit the definition of female that TERFs treat like some kind of law. Even though I am afab.

For me as an intersex woman, when I tell you I don’t feel included in your feminism or your definition of female, for the response to be a bunch of fucking dyadics telling me “no you actually are lmao” and talking over me instead of listening to me? That says everything about your movement and its view on intersex women. We aren’t allowed to speak up about our feelings without you basically telling us to shut the fuck up, and that’s why trans women have always made me feel more validated as a woman than you dyadic transphobes ever fucking have.

(I appreciate you so much, Nessa, and I am so sorry you have to deal with this shit ❤️)

steampunkette

I’m gonna throw this one out to @terfsarehomophobic @ex-terf-anti-terf @terflies @terfrecords and so many more:

Next time someone says “Woman = Adult Human Female” ask them to define Female in a way that is inclusive of all women, excludes everyone who is not a woman, but does not present a circular argument or have so many qualifiers tacked onto it as to be useless.

Because that’s all the Woman = Adult Human Female thought-terminating meme is. A circular argument with no logic whatsoever.

Almost every TERF argument is a logical fallacy. I’m so tired of them.

#nessa.txt #reblog

Alright, I’m going to ask this in a general way, What is a woman? What is wrong with the “woman = adult human female” view? I say this bc I saw a meme that said “Conservatives: female = woman = ‘girly things’ TRA: woman = “girly things” Radfem: female = woman” Idk it’s all so confusing, I’m anti-TERF too but I just want to know how you would respond to that-

I can’t answer that first question because there is no one definition for what makes a woman. However, I can explain the reductiveness of the statement that a woman is an adult human female.

Lots of cis women are female, in the sense that their bodies produce ova. But (and I know I use this example a lot) Laur @terfsarehomophobic is a cis women whose body does not produce ova, and has explicitly stated that the TERF definition of female does not apply to her.

However, she identifies as a woman and her doctor assigned her as female at birth. So… what else would you call her?

Intersex people are our own group and while our experiences often intersect with those of trans people (especially in cases of intersex trans people like myself) our existence does not validate or invalidate the existence of trans folk; they’re not the same thing. We are two separate marginalized groups.

“Woman” is a social construct, which means it can literally mean whatever you want. My personal connection to womanhood is more about community — my relationships with other women and the ways that my socialization has inevitably affected them — than it is about any part of my biology. Other women have their own definitions of womanhood and all of them can exist in the same space. Even the ones that I personally don’t understand (like “being a woman is about looking feminine” which I personally don’t get because you can present any way while being any gender) or agree with (such as “woman = adult human female”) can still be real for other women who are not me.

Personally, I don’t find any value in tying my womanhood to my oppression. I don’t define my gender by my reproductive organs because my reproductive organs are the only thing I’ve been valued for my entire life. I find that misogynistic to force upon me.

I hope that helps.

intersexelphie

The issue that I have with the way they use “woman = adult human female” is not just the transphobia they use along with it and the fact their definition of female often excludes a lot of intersex women, it’s also that they treat it like a word of law rather than the vague generalised definition that it is.

Yes, most women are female. That doesn’t mean all of us are or have to be.

And they will argue ‘well you were assigned female at birth’ to say they actually do think of me as a woman, but the reason for that was purely my genitals. I don’t have ova and I don’t have two full sets of X chromosomes, so it wasn’t because of either of those things. It’s because of how my genitals look.

So when they say “woman = adult human female”, what they mean is “woman = adult vagina”. They just realise how that sounds so will jump through hoops to try and not say that, which ends up messy.

#nessa.txt #rb #probably not gonna make any more posts for a while #but I really wanted to address this cause it makes me fucking mad

Image Description

Two reblogs on this post, displayed in tumblr dark mode.

The first is from user the-land-of-women and it reads “Intersex women are still female. Women without ova are still female. This definition literally only excludes male people”

The second comment is from use femeren. It says “I… this is the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. If I have to remove a kidney does that mean humans no longer have two kidneys? Is there a spectrum of kidney having? Was my body not built to accommodate 2 kidneys? I don’t understand this argument. Being infertile =/= being another sex.”

End ID

Yes, that is exactly what we’re fucking saying. Assigned females without ovaries are still female. And all the TERFs I’ve spoken to understand that, but they still cling to the definition of female that requires the production of a specific gamete.

I don’t remember whose post it was but I saw one somewhere that summed it up really well, and it said something like this.

TERFs: female means your body produces ova!

Intersex women: my body doesn’t produce ova, but I’m still female right?

TERFs: yeah you are.

Intersex women: why?

TERFs: …

You can’t say “here’s the definition of female, and here’s a bunch of people who don’t fit that definition but are still female because I said so” without sounding like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

The point Laur and I are trying to make is that there is no definition of femaleness that will include every assigned female person, and as such we need multiple definitions.

Humans don’t fit into neat boxes! That’s not how we work! Trying to force us to creates divides that hurt everyone.

Also funny that I’ve been accused of logical fallacy several times today but this very clear straw man about kidneys goes completely uncriticized.

I woke up to over a hundred notifications from this blog.

my notes: *racism* *ableism* *people calling me a misogynist* *transphobic slurs* *people calling me a TRA* *intersexism* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

my inbox: *ableist slurs* *people calling me a misogynist* *hate* *more ableist slurs* *intersexism* *rape threat* *most likely genuine questions that nonetheless come across as aggressive attacks on my personal character* *death threat* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

Some of these people are fucking obsessed with me. I have the same four blogs in my notes just commenting on every post I’ve made in the last two months.

It’s so baffling to me that they can sit here calling me a misogynist (for “not believing women about male violence” which I never did?) and not recognize the misogyny in them flooding a female trauma survivor with triggering messages and hate.

Oh there's a shit ton of 'no true radfem' in there too.

Anyway asks are off for the foreseeable future and I will be deleting any and all of the ones I've already received that I don't want to answer, just like I always do. Thanks for the blocklist, gyns :)

I am so tired of people trying to get me to take responsibility for things that anons say in my inbox.

I woke up to over a hundred notifications from this blog.

my notes: *racism* *ableism* *people calling me a misogynist* *transphobic slurs* *people calling me a TRA* *intersexism* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

my inbox: *ableist slurs* *people calling me a misogynist* *hate* *more ableist slurs* *intersexism* *rape threat* *most likely genuine questions that nonetheless come across as aggressive attacks on my personal character* *death threat* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

Some of these people are fucking obsessed with me. I have the same four blogs in my notes just commenting on every post I’ve made in the last two months.

It’s so baffling to me that they can sit here calling me a misogynist (for “not believing women about male violence” which I never did?) and not recognize the misogyny in them flooding a female trauma survivor with triggering messages and hate.

Oh there's a shit ton of 'no true radfem' in there too.

Anyway asks are off for the foreseeable future and I will be deleting any and all of the ones I've already received that I don't want to answer, just like I always do. Thanks for the blocklist, gyns :)

I woke up to over a hundred notifications from this blog.

my notes: *racism* *ableism* *people calling me a misogynist* *transphobic slurs* *people calling me a TRA* *intersexism* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

my inbox: *ableist slurs* *people calling me a misogynist* *hate* *more ableist slurs* *intersexism* *rape threat* *most likely genuine questions that nonetheless come across as aggressive attacks on my personal character* *death threat* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

Some of these people are fucking obsessed with me. I have the same four blogs in my notes just commenting on every post I’ve made in the last two months.

It’s so baffling to me that they can sit here calling me a misogynist (for “not believing women about male violence” which I never did?) and not recognize the misogyny in them flooding a female trauma survivor with triggering messages and hate.

Oh there's a shit ton of 'no true radfem' in there too.

I woke up to over a hundred notifications from this blog.

my notes: *racism* *ableism* *people calling me a misogynist* *transphobic slurs* *people calling me a TRA* *intersexism* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

my inbox: *ableist slurs* *people calling me a misogynist* *hate* *more ableist slurs* *intersexism* *rape threat* *most likely genuine questions that nonetheless come across as aggressive attacks on my personal character* *death threat* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

Some of these people are fucking obsessed with me. I have the same four blogs in my notes just commenting on every post I’ve made in the last two months.

It’s so baffling to me that they can sit here calling me a misogynist (for “not believing women about male violence” which I never did?) and not recognize the misogyny in them flooding a female trauma survivor with triggering messages and hate.

I woke up to over a hundred notifications from this blog.

my notes: *racism* *ableism* *people calling me a misogynist* *transphobic slurs* *people calling me a TRA* *intersexism* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*

my inbox: *ableist slurs* *people calling me a misogynist* *hate* *more ableist slurs* *intersexism* *rape threat* *most likely genuine questions that nonetheless come across as aggressive attacks on my personal character* *death threat* *misogyny* *misogyny* *misogyny*