fernsnouveau

show up into a fandom five years late with starbucks | miraculous side blog | divorced the last two thirds of season 5

[angelshizuka]

I'm tired of sugarcoating it. If you genuinely believe Marinette is doing the right thing by lying to Adrien, even after seeing how it made an abuse victim admire his abuser, you ARE and abuse apologist. I don't care what arguments you pull out of your ass to "justify" it.

[flightfoot]

No, Marinette very much lied to Alya concerning the Lie, just not this episode. But she did explicitly lie to her in Lady Chaos. The whole conversation with Marinette persuading Alya to make an illusion to lie for her was at least dubious, and then there was this part that was an outright, no-doubt-about-it, factual lie.

Marinette: Besides, Ladybug was unconscious when Gabriel Agreste defeated Monarch anyway, so I don't know the whole story either.

She was definitely conscious and knew the full story.

[thetrashthatsmilesback]

Can't imagine how frustrating it must be for the ML salters who are Maristans to spend years defending or downplaying every bad thing she did, giving Adrien and Alya or any other character that ain't Luka hell for so much as looking at her wrong...

Only for the show to have her done something so bad even they can't defend

Okay so outside of reading like, one chameleon salt fic back when I was 16, I was never the type of maristan who salted the other characters, but I can tell you that as someone who still defends her seasons 1-3 and even s4 actions, its awful. Its genuinely hell.

I had a ladybug toothbrush not even a full 6 months ago. I still defend her in seasons 1-3 because all the things she's criticized for back then are either common forms of humor in anime, which the show is inspired by, or she learns were wrong in the episode, such as bullying Kagami. Even at my most critical of her in s4, I used to sit at my laptop and just refresh @/gentil-minou's blog, and ate up all the ladynoir conflict posts, even the pro mari ones.

I don't know why they have done this to her. Flat out. I don't know why this is the direction they took. I had already made peace with the show going in a direction I couldn't follow for s5 when the Bible leaked and said Adrien would never know the truth. I cut my losses then, never finished s5, and outside of appreciating some bugganoire fanart I only had bad things to say.

Then I saw everyone was saying s6 was great, so I got sucked back in. The worst part? Season 6 DOES have some good writing, it's just also destroying Marinette. I refuse to tag s6 stuff with Mari salt because my complaints are just things she is doing in canon. I was given the suggestion of tagging it as "not my Marinette" and... yeah that feels right. But it also partially doesn't due to all the Chloe shit - Mari has already been written as an abuse apologist in the past because she's just a mouthpiece for Thomas Astruc's horrible opinions about child abuse.

I looked for every excuse even at my previously most critical of Mari (its master fu, its the bad writing, Mari would never ask Juleka to uninvite Luka from his own party that was just character assassination, etc) but I think I have to accept that the maribug of seasons 1-3 is dead. Just like adrichat's sass, chloe's redemption arc, and kagami's defiance.

It sucks that season 6 does have several well written episodes, because they're overshadowed by the explicit abuse apologia.

So yeah. That's what its like. Its fucking depressing. Marinette used to represent a healthy relationship for Adrien when he was surrounded by toxicity. Their relationship meant so much to me at the worst of the shit in my home life, but I guess 15 year old me was wrong for believing that the show would pay off anything or have its characters grow in a way that was satisfying.

[glitterpensupremacy]

Gonna drop a bomb into the reactor but can someone tell me why "people just hate women/girls who are anything less than perfect" is exclusively a Marinette defense? Can someone tell me this defense has never been for Alya, a character who has gotten bashed to hell and back with salt as early as Season Three? Can someone tell me why misogyny is exclusively called out when it targets Marinette (or Chloe)?

(Small addition bc this post blew up more than I thought it would: I understand the impulse to hyperfocus on the racial elements to Alya's writing and—as is the focus of this post—her reception to the fandom, but I also don't think the gendered elements should be ignored either. This isn't me asking anyone to prioritize one over the over, but to point out that seeing Alya exclusively as a black character victimized for their blackness as opposed to a black girl victimized for her blackness and her femininity risks denying her gender and her treatment for her gender in a patriarchal world.

Alya deals with misogynoir, but only focusing on the second part and not the first falsely implies that she doesn't deal with the first, and thus isn't "actually a girl," the very mentality that this post is attempting to call out.)

[alwaysbringaphoenixdown]

I think the difference is who most people perceive as the main critics of these characters

Most people assume the Marinette critics are men so that leads to the assumption that her hate is mostly misogyny

Same with Chloe, especially with Austruc's behavior

Most Alya salt I personally see is from women, so it's easier to assume it's more racism than sexism

For comparison, Avatar Korra is also a dark-skinned woman and gets the "you just hate women" defense because her critics are mostly assumed male

So while Alya definitely gets sexist hate too, since her detractors are assumed female, people see the racism first and the sexism second despite both of them deserving equal attention

[generalluxun]

Alya gets dogpiled egregiously because her stereotype(Black Best Friend) puts her in a position that when she betrays(Read: Doesn't completely kowtow to) the custom made for Self-Insert Specialist Girl protagonist(Marinette) those who are doing as the show wishes and inserting themselves into Marinette's pace, feel that betrayal personally.

Once that happens it triggers reflexive lashing out in perceived 'Self Defense' Defending Marinette's position(It doesn't matter what the position is) becomes a self-preservation exercise for the psyche. In that animalistic response people revert to all the worst aspects of themselves. The -isms come flying fast and free because they are known to be powerful forbidden weapons. They are employed because it is Known they cause damage. Kill the target dead and bury it to prevent any future 'danger.'

It also matters that you are talking about very different groups of people. I don't think I've met a Chloe-enjoyer who was down on Alya ever. (If anything they often commiserate with how Alya gets treated in the fandom) Chloe is used as a weapon *against* Alya by the fandom, in a 'Even this worst person is better than bad friend Alya!' but that's not actual Chloe enjoyers doing that. It's the self-inserting Marinette fans(Who are only doing and being Exacty what the show has trained them to be) simply using Chloe as a tool.

You are correct in that it is both Alya's gender and her race that are utilized for abuse, though I would say if you read Maribat and the Chameleon Salt you'd find that Bully-Alya is definitely dipping much more into the 'Violent Black' racial stereotypes than any particular female negative stereotypes. People attack with all the weapons they have. If Alya were even remotely presented as being on the spectrum you know damn sure the R word would have been thrown around like confetti too.

Alya deserves better

The fandom needs to do better

The SHOW needs to do better

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions, but those conditioning the audience for years is not without guilt either.

[glitterpensupremacy]

To an extent I agree with all this, however there are some additions I would like to make:

While a lot of the antiblack stereotypes thrown at Alya seem neutral on a surface level, they tend to interact with her gender quite a bit. Alya's variant of the "black best friend" tends to relate more to the "mammy" and the "sassy black friend" stereotypes, which specifically harm black girls and black women (this is specifically in the sense that a huge part of Alya's character is dedicated to providing emotional support to Marinette, assisting her with things she can't or doesn't want to do, and helping her grow as a person, all of these things forcing her into the gendered role of the black caretaker/maternal figure). In contrast, Nino's variant tends to fall more into the trope of the "funny/goofy black friend," which is predominantly used for male characters (the difference between this role and the previous one is that these friends are not expected to provide significant physical or emotional support; in contrast, these friends tend to cause a lot of problems for their white friend—see: Rocketear and illusion—playing into the racist notion of black boys and men being amusing but incompetent). Even with a stereotype that hurts black people of both genders, the specifics of said stereotype tend to rely on gender roles and biases.

As for Alya's demonization in fanon, this too takes on a gendered lens. Yes, the "violent black person" is stereotype that harms black people of all genders and ages; however, Alya's portrayal specifically fall into the Sapphire stereotype, defined by the Jim Crow Museum (https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/antiblack/sapphire.htm) as framing black girls and women as "rude, loud, malicious, stubborn, and overbearing." Said source also identities this stereotype as the Angry Black Woman trope, another one that should be understood as misogynoir, not just anti-blackness.

The last major thing I'd like to touch on is what was mentioned about who these critics are. I agree that Alya's critics are predominantly female whereas Marinette and Chloe's critics tend to be more varied in gender (I am not going to describe them as predominantly male, as I personally dony find it consistent to what I've seen and witnessed from their critical communities). That said, I don't fully understand how this explains the discrepancy in misogyny allegations. This may come from my bias as a woman, but I've seen and heard of more than my fair share of women who participate in and have internalized misogyny. Perhaps it's not the more obvious kind fans are used to calling out, but women can be just as prone to centering male characters, hypocritically bashing female characters, policing identities and the expression of "gendered" traits, and most crucially, deciding what "type" of woman actually counts/is acceptable in fandom spaces. The last point in this list is yet another issue that harms black women and girls, as they are most likely candidates for not being considered the "right kind" of female. These behaviors are not suddenly feminist when they are perpetrated by women—if it disproportionately harms women, it's misogyny.

Alya's treatment and the hatred she receives is misogynistic because it:

- Punishes her for failing to meet the expectations of a stereotype (the sassy/mammy-coded black best friend) that hurts black women and girls despite the reasons that she "fails" often being because she was placed into this stereotype in the first place.

- Expresses that punishment through mischaracterizing her as another stereotype that hurts black women and girls (the violent Sapphire/Angry Black Woman).

- Comes from people (women or otherwise) who have internalized misogyny problems and are most prone to targeting black women and girls.

If this behavior is not recognized as misogyny (and thus not defended from a feminist standpoint), it is not because her mistreatment isn't appropriately related to sexism/gender bias, it is because the fandom has failed to recognize misogyny as something that affects black women just as much as nonblack women. As a result, I don't particularly find the people who overlook this issue in need of defending so much as in need of education.

[ovid]

it’s psychological horror to YOU. to me it’s a romcom

[allbuthuman]

it's a romcom to YOU. to me it's psychological horror

[unhingedpolls]

What's the most egregious?

Marinette and Adrien still don't know each other's identities

Andre got redeemed but Chloe was pure evil

Felix was forgiven with minimal effort

Adrien didn't get to confront his father before he died

The conspiracy to hide Gabriel's identity exists at all

Voting ended onMar 20

[generalluxun]

Absolutely has to be redeeming an abusive parent while telling us his child was the one abusing him. That's actively harmful to a child audience.

[erisluna35]

The thing that makes "redeeming an abusive parent while blaming everything wrong on the child" so diabolical is that it sets a precedent in the show on how abuse is disconnected to all the bad things the child adapted to survive that household. If Andre teaching Chloe his corrupt political tactics and showing her that privilege is a tool she can use to get what she wants, what other abusive parents and the results of said abuse are gonna be waived now that they're disconnected?

Like there's also the same disconnect when it came to Chloe's mom being so verbally abusive people swore she's written in to give Chloe an explanation for her behavior but the show acts like she isn't the most openly verbally abusive parent in the show.

How tough and disciplined and inexpressive Kagami is has nothing to do with her mom?

Or we can blow it up to everything wrong with Adrien is totally his fault and not Gabriel's. Adrien being a passive, people pleasing doormat is all part of the dream boy package and not molded into him by his impossible to impress father. This is the same logic some people get on whenever they say they want to hold Adrien accountable for his actions but then punishing him worse than the person who made him that way.

It also connects to how so many abusive parents in this show get off so easily cause the entirety of their actions are never acknowledged. From Adrien's grandfather's behavior being swept under the rug, to Jagged Stone knowingly abandoning his kids... Their actions are not connected to how it affected their kids and their development into who they are. Andre's case is one that's just so in your face, Chloe has said so several times she learned to play dirty from her father, it appals me how some people think this is acceptable.

Everything else in the list might find an alternative set up or resolution to make them more palatable even if they're still no good but this one, there's no going around it.

[onlyvinegar]

Adrien being a passive, people pleasing doormat is all part of the dream boy package and not molded into him by his impossible to impress father.

Well, that has been as good as written text for a few years by now:

Plagg [instructing Adrien on how to turn into the partner who is "exactly what Ladybug is looking for", the perfect partner "tailor-made" for her]: You know how to be serious, like when you're with your father and Nathalie. Just be like that!  (...) Plagg [after Adrien spent the episode being so perfect Ladybug had to send him off for being distractingly sexy]: You're not Cat Noir, but you're not Adrien either. You're both. You're the perfect son who's extremely successful in everything he does. But you're also Cat Noir, who just wants to enjoy life and have fun. One can't exist without the other.

Adrien's fawning personality/"lacking backbone"/"perfect son side" is his real self, actually, not an persona adapted to survive an abusive home.

[sweetcloverheart]

What makes the "Adrien's fawning response is his true personality" thing alongside the whole "the abusive/neglectful parents are totally not abusive/neglectful they're just strict and now they're good cause shut up pay no attention to the man standing on the soapbox" frustrating is that you absolutely can have that nuance if you want it. It's a balancing act that requires a lot of care, work, and caution, but it is possible!

You can have "Jagged feels bad for knocking up Anarka and abandoning the kids and wants to be in there for them now" and "But it was still shitty and he needs to do a lot to make up for it outside of now being 'fun dad who gives only his son guitar lessons and travels with him to Brazil'".

You can have "Chloe is responsible for her own behavior regardless of how Andre and Audrey treat her" and "But her parents still are awful people who need to be either need to be made to shape up and take accountability for how they raised their child or have her removed from their lack of care"

You can have "Kagami is valid for loving her mother and wanting her to have the chance to be a better person" and "But it's clear Tomoe doesn't want to try and she is NOT responsible for her choices in that matter"

Hell, you can even have "Emil is valid for realizing his mistakes and wanting to be a better person after his wife got akumatized" and "But he was still an abusive dickbag and both his wife and remaining daughter have every right to kick him to the curb after years of suffering him and aren't obligated to just forgive and forget"

But most of all, you absolutely can have "Both 'Adrien The Model' and 'Chat Noir The Hero' are valid and equal sides of the same coin that is Adrien Agreste and his happiness lies in finding a happy medium between the two" and "But there are also parts of both that are unhealthy that he needs to recognize and confront to come to that point - especially with the 'Adrien the model' half because no, Adrien trading in "being whatever my parents want' with "being whatever my girlfriend wants" is NOT positive progress!"

[thetrashthatsmilesback]

Gabriel describing Emilie as "prone to fits of drama" (as a way to put down Adrien by comparing him to her) and Amelie saying he "ruined [her] poor sister's life." Gabriel's possessive love of Emilie leading to him keeping her in the basement post mortem.

Gabriel was always abusive. It wasn't just after Emilie died. We have more than enough evidence that he emotionally abused Emilie as well. That doesn't erase that Emilie contributed to Adrien's abuse (isolating him, wearing his amok at all times, justifying his father's neglect in the flashback from s6). It just adds context to her character.

Emilie was abused as a child by her father, married a man who proceeded to emotionally abuse her (unfortunately very common), and contributed to the abuse of her son. If the show focused on this more rather than just hinting at Gabriel's abuse of Emilie, then they could do something really powerful about generational trauma and the vulnerability child abuse survivors face in the dating world.

Edit: Gabriel said Adrien was "way too overly dramatic" in the dub and "extremely sensitive" in the og French. Thank you @fallmyfeathers /gen!!

[ubuyo]

liking a character from a thing you don’t like

[angelshizuka]

So... TA just literally straight up admitted he doesn't think villains should be likeable at all, aka admitting why his writing for villains who are "irredeemable evil monsters" sucks so much.

"I personally won't go that way anymore, and instead make sure that villains can't be liked, and only provoke strong rejection." (Taking screenshots is more annoying on desktop, but you can literally see it in his reply tab posted a few hours ago.)

Like, villains being likeable as characters (which is not the same thing as being likable as a person and I am absolutely losing my mind over how many people refuse to learn the difference) are literally what makes a good villain. A villain is barely a character (at best just a plot device) if they're not enjoyable to watch.

I can't even say I'm suprised TA literally proved my point.

[fernsnouveau]

Anyway realistically I think staying on Nazi Twitter at this point is just... not psychologically recommendable. Even before the nazi take-over, the site's algorithm was already set up to boost engagement by figuring out whatever will ragebait and distress you the most, and then constantly throwing that into your face. The user interface was set up against reasonable interactions and actual in-depth communication. I imagine that the nazification of the site and the exodus of most of the comparatively reasonable portion of the userbase have probably made this worse. (But IDK personally, since I deleted the app around that time.)

[fernsnouveau]

I really love watching the off-screen version of Miraculous Ladybug! <3

[genderqueeradrien]

many have asked questions such as “what is miraculous ladybug even about” but this has never before been answered. this is because nobody is quite sure. it’s impossible to know

[genderqueeradrien]

does Anybody know. does anybody have any idea

[goldensmilingbird]

Is he for freaking real

YEAH BECAUSE THAT'S MUCH BETTER

[goldensmilingbird]

🙃🙃🙃

[stingerella]

Im so excited for the off screen Chloe redemption where she comes back in s9, apologises and gets forgiven off screen between s9 and 10 and is best friends with everyone in s10

[fernsnouveau]

Oh dang, "it wasn't fast, it was offscreen" is absolutely how the Big Lie emotional fallout/reconciliation arc will go IF the narrative ever allows Adrien to find out anything about his life that Maribug has been lying to him about, isn't it?

[notannascribbles]

chat blanc on purpose this time now. chat blanc on purpose this time yesterday. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. please. plea

[lilacblossomdreams]

Fandom: Did Félix just... apologize? Astruc: You know, it was really off-screen.