salt and vinegar crisps

Out of courtesy for people who follow the main and don't want the bitching. Not spoiler free.

[onlyvinegar]

I think that Miraculous Ladybug is a very good monster-of-the-week superhero show.

I also think the attempts at giving it A Plot are... not going so great. 

This blog is for discussing spoilers and whining about the less-than-perfect parts of a show that otherwise is first rate at what it’s trying to be. Commentaries on leaks and spoilers are tagged #ml spoilers, #ml leaks and #ml bible leaks. 

[generalluxun]

Let me just say I don’t really care about an apology to Ladybug in the grand scheme of things that much. It’s something that would help his character a lot, but it wouldn’t fix all of his narrative problems. It happening off screen is poor practice in specific because the audience isn’t kept in the loop and is just expected to accept things as they are.

Adrian is just as pressing of a matter in regards to Felix, and yet we don’t see anything where they hash it out or come to an understanding. If they did off screen then it’s just poor writing for the audience, and even then him lying to Adrian undermines any apology he could make regarding the red moon incident as that was also done under the pretense of doing something he thinks Adrian would want. He made the same mistake twice and yet his hypothetical apology to Adrian, possibly happening around the same time, is supposed to be genuine?

It's an admission of how tangled and inavigable the current plot threads are. Who would Felix apologize to? What explanation would he give? The scene itself would beg so many questions that cannot be answered. Would he tell Cat Noir? Would Ladybug forbid him from telling Cat Noir? How would it come off and be in character? How involved in the conspiracy to lie to Adrien would people be?

They don't have the chops/will to do it well, bit instead of owning that and moving on TA needs to gaslight you with 'its not important.'

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Another way to "fix" Peacock Miraculous, is just to throw away that whole "emotion" stuff, and make Peacock Miraculous ability to be just "you can have your own personal and custom-made 'weird monster'. Have fun."

Peacock!Marinette wants to have "horse-sized black cat with personality of Chat Noir"? She can.

Peacock!Chloe wants to have "Mr Cuddly as (essentially) Care Bear"? She can

ShadowMoth wants to have Moth-Scorpion hybrid that will serve as his mount, for sake of "aura farming"? He can

I mean, that's basically what the peacock is. The only sentimonster with a clear tie to Emotions was Feast and that's only if you consider hunger an emotion. If Emilie can make... whatever the hell she made and have that creation grow into a human with a full range of emotions, then the power has no limits. The peacock is god. It'll be interesting to see how Felix is used because of this issue. Is he going to come across as incompetent or is he just not going to get to be on screen much? Only time will tell! My bet is that he just won't show up much since he's an insta-win card. Just have Felix make a senti that senses miraculous or akumas and let it track down Lila. Or a senti that senses akumas, teleports to them, and captures them before they infect anything. Problem solved! Day saved!

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

For those who are still watching canon, I have to ask: did Felix get to do anything as Argos this season? I know he appears at the start of Revelator when the teenagers all willed themselves into adulthood, but that seems to be all we see of Argos. A brief skim of the wiki indicates Felix only got real screen time Yaksi Gozen and even then he's a civilian from start to finish. Kagami gets to transform in that episode, but Felix is incapacitated by a senticommand so he can't help. How interesting. I wonder why the writers did that? Could it be that Felix has an overpowered miraculous so the writers are actively keeping him out of the action?

I have no strong feelings re: Felix so I'm not upset that he's getting so little attention. I just think it's silly to give him a god-tier miraculous if you're not going let him use it. Like why did they even bother to "redeem" him? Just let him run off with the peacock never to be seen again OR let him stay a wild card who occasionally shows up to cause havoc in increasingly insane attempts to woo Kagami. Now that's a Feligami arc I'd actually enjoy! Much more fun than the mutual insta-love plot canon gave us.

Oh well, maybe Felix will get to do something useful with the peacock next season and there's still the season six final! Maybe he can do something there.

[onlyvinegar]

Could it be that Felix has a miraculous that is the physical manifestation of moral transgression, one which his using would undermine the only character motivation he has been given and be an act of hypocricy so wild that the writers would just prefer the audience not remember that too often?

(I too dream of the universe where Felix remained the unaffiliated and slightly unhinged mastermind who isn't on Team Ladybug but certainly isn't on the side of whoever is doing the supervillaining either unless there's something in it for him)

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I figured Felix caring about Sentimonsters was scrapped after he made the stupid projector for his art house play. In fact, I now question if he ever cared about general senti freedom or if that was just another case of fans making a logical assumption that canon never intended to engage with. It's hard to know for sure because his character is so poorly written and so many scenes with him are confusing.

Like I think a lot of us thought his apology at the end of Strikeback was for Strikeback, but I now think it was probably meant to be for Ladybug. And I have no idea how we're supposed to view whatever happened with Red Moon. That made it seem like Felix was against creating sentimonsters, but then why make the projector? And why was Kagami okay with that? I have no idea. This show is such a mess...

[onlyvinegar]

Well. Word of God has it that the reason he didn't join Marinette's battle against Gabriel (which would've certainly ensured their victory) was because being a sentimonster is such an integral part of his identity that he doesn't care for "human business" like saving the known universe. Factor in his willingness to create and subsequently murder fellow sentimonsters for the aesthetic, and the end result is that the ~senti freedom~ angle is a logical conclusion, it's just that some sentimonsters are more equal than others.

It occured to me that there is a wholly different reason the writers won't do anything with him, and it is pretty bloody telling that it took me a month to even remember it:

The biggest plot whole in all that is Felix is that there is that there is no believable reason for why he wouldn't tell Adrien.

Nathalie has her freedom at stake. Kagami I can see trusting Marinette/Ladybug with Adrien's well-being. Plagg is problably (uncharacteristically) following chain of command.

But Felix? Adrien already knows he teamed up with Hawkmoth and backstabbed Ladybug. Marinette was never a special friend who changed his life for the better. And I refuse to believe that the Felix Fathom we saw in seasons 3-5 would accept any authority which threatened to take his miraculous if he disobeyed. The boy committed global genocide for Adrien's sake. I do not believe that he'd let him live in ignorance just because Marinette says no.

Better then to keep him off screen so that we don't remind the audience about how any of that happened in some pivotal episodes of the previous season.

[scrivello-10]

back on my analyzing Chloé thing

just based on my observations:

the seasons tend to be worked on simultaneously; rn, S6 is airing, S7 has started animation and voice work, and S8 is being written

we know S2 was airing when S3 and S4 were being written (there’s the Vesperia transformation storyboard that was created during S2 production)

imo it’s safe to say that S1-3 were most likely being worked on roughly around the same time.

i’m about to sound insanely condescending, so i’m apologizing in advance.

so speaking from the perspective of the creatives behind the show, and not from a narrative/story perspective, it’s safe to say that Chloé’s arc in S2-3 was always planned, especially considering the info above

what I personally think happened was that Chloé became more responsible in S2, which caused people to believe that she could get a redemption

however, I don’t believe the writers had that planned, especially considering that the seasons were most likely worked on around the same time

so as a result, a lot of the Chloé Fanbase took it personally when Chloé didn’t get the redemption they were hoping for; they had a vision for what they wanted to see, and that vision didn’t come to fruition. What ended up happening was that the Fanbase believed that it was done to purposely upset the fans (hence the “Astruc/the writers ruined her redemption” argument)

like don’t get me wrong, I could easily see where S2 hypothetically could’ve led to a redemption, but that was never the writers’ intention

there’s two points in S2 that stand out to me which tell me the redemption was never happening, and that it wasn’t a “last minute decision” (actively doing a rewatch of the show, so there could be more)

Chloé and Audrey bond over their cruelty and mistreatment of others; after Chloé asks why Audrey doesn’t love her, the two share a brief heart to heart, but both end up yelling at Marinette, and realize they have the same personality.

Chloé revealed her identity as Queen Bee

So both of these things were conscious choices made by the creatives behind the show. The argument of “the writers took away her redemption” doesn’t work here, because S2 is where the “start” of her redemption would’ve happened.

If S2 both wrote Chloé to be more responsible, but then also work it into her story to then bond over being terrible, all signs point to no redemption ever taking place.

again, don’t get me wrong, they could’ve made a different writing choice; you are free to hate the choice made, but blaming the writers for something they didn’t do isn’t fair to them.

With Chloé revealing her identity, there was always going to be some sort of payoff to that; she’s the only one of the S2 heroes introduced to reveal her identity. So again, a conscious choice made by the writers for S2.

Her losing her claims to the miraculous was also always going to happen. From a storytelling perspective, she became a target to Hawk Moth, and the miraculous would be at risk whenever she ever got to use it.

From a more technical perspective (like from the creatives), her arc would’ve been decided before S2 even started airing.

I still stand by the notion that Chloé was never getting a redemption, and that it was a hope from some of the fans, that never came to fruition.

[pandaofsecrets]

You're right for the wrong reasons.

Neither of your points actually prove anything. We've learned that the Miraculous holders can change their appearance at will and hide their identity that way (Cat Walker, Rena Furtive, Fury), so her revealing her identity wouldn't actually be that bad unless you're artificially afflicting characters with the Stupid Virus.

As for her and Audrey bonding over being terrible people, Marinette actively encouraged them to do that, so ????

No, what actually told me a Chloé redemption wasn't happening (and really, couldn't happen) was the temp hero system. A redeemed Queen Bee actively requires actual team dynamics in order to be interesting.

[scrivello-10]

speaking from a writing perspective, and not from how these things affect the lore of the story, or the “what ifs?” that could’ve happened (like changing appearances), what I said does make sense (at least to me haha)

like I do get what you’re saying from a storytelling perspective, and how other characters and circumstances don’t work with what I said

There were definitely things included later on into the show that could’ve changed Chloé’s arc/circumstance, but these elements (like changing appearances) weren’t introduced until S4. Looking back on it, there are definitely ways that the story could theoretically be revised knowing what we do now. Imo however, because these weren’t introduced during Queen Bee’s appearances, they don’t really work in this argument; Chloé wouldn’t know about this, let alone Ladybug (who knows if Fu even knew).

but what I was getting as was that the writers made the decision to have Chloé reveal her identity, which would’ve led to some sort of consequence needing to be written later on

In Chloé’s case it was that she lost the miraculous; in Alya’s case, she had to go into hiding. These were writing choices made, not taking into account the character dynamics/relationships

talking about it from a storytelling perspective, her revealing her identity did make her a target to Hawk Moth, similarly to what happened to Alya; I do think this is where Marinette’s own bias comes in.

Alya is her best friend and someone she trusts, so she believes Alya will be responsible with permanently keeping the miraculous. On the contrary, Chloé regularly bullied Marinette; it does make sense that Marinette wouldn’t trust Chloé to handle that.

Another story element that I do feel is important is who the guardians were. With Chloé, Master Fu was the guardian, and requested that Ladybug bring back the miraculous after they were used. With Alya, Marinette was the guardian, meaning that she was able to make her own decisions regarding the miraculous, and no longer had to act as a middle-man.

with the Audrey-Chloé conversation, the writers chose to have them bond over sharing the same personality (and also chose to write Marinette to encourage it)

The writers choosing to include them bonding over it was intentional; they wanted to show that Chloé still was a bully, regardless of getting the miraculous.

for both of these, there’s obviously the more story based things that need to happen to further the narrative, but speaking specifically about the creatives behind the show, they had purposely written these elements into the show to have some payoff in a later episode/season.

[generalluxun]

My turn!

Kagami also reveals herself pretty much instantly in Ikari Gozen, so that kind of makes 'Chloé reveals herself' a moot point. Nothing ever came from Kagami revealing herself.

Audrey and Chloé bonding: In any sane narrative the protagonist actively encouraging someone to be *worse* to obtain the love of an abusive parent would be treated as a point of failure for the protagonist that foreshadows a future lesson for the protagonist.

And the ultimate Trump card is: None of it matters. Their intentions don't matter. What they put on screen was tue narrative of an abused and neglected child being blamed for her own abuse and neglect. There is no world in which there is any defense of that in a children's show. It's a terrible mistake that needs to be corrected.

[scrivello-10]

don’t get me wrong, I do think that there was so much that could’ve been explored with Chloé’s character that ultimately wasn’t

I still do stand by the writers having a set intention with Chloé as a character, but I do agree that they handled her as a character very poorly. While I personally don’t care whether she gets a redemption or becomes more of an antagonist going forward, a big part of me wishes that they actually chose to explore more of what makes Chloé be Chloé (if that makes sense)

I’m not going to defend the quality of the writing, or list things I wish they did, because what has happened has already happened. I do want to clarify that my original post is in no way defending the writing, but just stating what happened objectively. I’ve said this a few times in the past, but I do hope Chloé as a character gets the same level of depth and attention as other characters have gotten in S6.

Similarly to the Chloé vs Alya example in my previous reply, Chloé, Alya, and Kagami all have a different set of consequences for their identities; Chloé loses the miraculous, Alya had to go into hiding, and Kagami has to actively deal with her mother + risk the miraculous being stolen.

Tbh I haven’t watched Ikari Gozen in a hot minute (mainly bc I find a lot of the earlier episodes to be very boring), but I’ll give it a rewatch; I know with the other heroes (Pegasus, Carapace, Rena Rouge, King Monkey, Ryûko, and Viperion) everyone around them was affected by Miracle Queen, so as far as I’m aware, very few people know their identities (I think the current list is Marinette, Adrien, Gabriel, Nathalie, Tomoe, and Lila?). Realistically speaking they’re all at the same level of risk, but I do think part of Chloé losing her miraculous comes back to a bias that Marinette most likely had.

[generalluxun]

Can I ask what the value of it being intentional is? If the end result is a tale that says 'children are responsible for their own abuse and no one is coming to help them if they act out in any way at all.' Why does it matter if it was pre-planned or not?

[scrivello-10]

when I talk about the intentionality of the show, I moreso mean it as “the writers most likely chose to not give her a redemption early on into the production of the show, so saying that they took away something that never existed isn’t fair to the writers”

usually when I see things like this, it’s related to a different character having a different arc than Chloé; ofc people are free to dislike how Chloé was handled, and dislike how downplayed the emotional/psychological abuse she faced (and critique the writing), but it doesn’t change that Chloé was written the way she was. Unfortunately for Chloé, there never was a “switch up” on her getting a redemption; I highly doubt it was ever meant to happen, even if the writing pointed in that direction

again, I really do not like the writing for Chloé; there was so much that could’ve been done, and her in S2 is when I found her to be the most interesting. S3-5 she genuinely annoyed me because of the constant “DADDY!” thing, but from what we’ve seen in S6, I do enjoy her there.

I really hope that she gets more development, whether that be some form of redemption or retribution, or if it’s her becoming a genuine threat.

I do agree that because of how the writing panned out, it served a very poor message, and I do understand why the Chloé fanbase hate how it was handled.

tbh I have no clue if any of this actually makes sense, so if you need me to clarify anything lmk!! 😭😭

[scrivello-10]

OH ALSO!!

in my SentiCats AU (which i swear im working on trust!!) I’m reworking Chloé in a way where she does want to become good on her own accord, and where she’s aware of her family’s abuse towards her

if anyone who comes across this has any suggestions, or anything you’d like to see please lmk!!

[generalluxun]

Ah okay, So when you speak of intentionality that's just like saying 'Premeditated' when it comes to murder. Considering the outcome, I'd say that makes it worse.

I'd also argue against the idea she was pre-planned actually. Since the earliest storyboards we have are from 2018, the same year that S3 aired. More likely that was when she was introduced conceptually. Season 4 didn't drop until 2021 so there's plenty of room for her existence to be fleshed out in there. I'd say all those storyboards do is argue against the idea that she was made *in response to* people's reactions to the end of S3. Her being in response to people's reactions to S1 and S2 is entirely valid still.

It is always crucial to remember that ML wasn't cleared for 5 seasons out the gate. It got one season, then two more, then two more, then three more, and now 2 after that. Having a solid outline of your 4th season to be aired in 6-7yrs time while writing a show that may not even make it to 3 is generally not how things are done.

*waves at Legend of Korra* There's another show that suffered hugely from the piecemeal seasoning. They were given one season. They wrote a one season plot. Then bam, they got 3 more seasons so they had to rewind Korra's development and start stapling on ideas to fill up the space. I'm not here hash out the merits of the final product but you can't miss the disconnect without being blind.

And again, for me, it doesn't even have to do with redeeming Chloe. She could be pitching a fit as she's taken away from Andre/Audrey/Noe. People in abusive situations do that. Going back to the situation, or another similar one, is EXTREMELY common. It's about showing the *audience* that what happened to her is abuse, and showing them she deserves help(like all children do) and what form that help *can* take.

Honestly I wouldn't expect her to come around on it for years, if we are going for 'realistic'. She's got to build a life time of emotional and ethical frameworks and THAT is a grueling task that doesn't show a clear value until it's almost done.

[pandaofsecrets]

Also? The writers aren't a hivemind and don't always agree on what to do with the characters. Toph was initially envisioned by Brian Konietzko and Michael Dante DiMartino as a buff dude who would compete with Aang for Katara's affections; it was Aaron Ehasz's idea to make her into the character we know today.

From what I can gather, Chloé seems to have been a tug of war between Thomas Astruc and Matthieu Choquet. Choquet has said his favorite character is Chloé, and knowing that his favorite episodes are also the Heroes' Day two-parter, I think we know exactly which version of Chloé he prefers. Not only that, but Chloé's arc started in S2, which Choquet wrote the most episodes for, and while he didn't write as much in S3, he did write Miraculer and is thus most likely responsible for Chloé's big moment where she rejected the akuma. He only wrote Psycomedian in S4 and left entirely in S5, and yeah, the nosedive in the quality of Chloé's writing is immediate and noticeable.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Another way to "fix" Peacock Miraculous, is just to throw away that whole "emotion" stuff, and make Peacock Miraculous ability to be just "you can have your own personal and custom-made 'weird monster'. Have fun."

Peacock!Marinette wants to have "horse-sized black cat with personality of Chat Noir"? She can.

Peacock!Chloe wants to have "Mr Cuddly as (essentially) Care Bear"? She can

ShadowMoth wants to have Moth-Scorpion hybrid that will serve as his mount, for sake of "aura farming"? He can

I mean, that's basically what the peacock is. The only sentimonster with a clear tie to Emotions was Feast and that's only if you consider hunger an emotion. If Emilie can make... whatever the hell she made and have that creation grow into a human with a full range of emotions, then the power has no limits. The peacock is god. It'll be interesting to see how Felix is used because of this issue. Is he going to come across as incompetent or is he just not going to get to be on screen much? Only time will tell! My bet is that he just won't show up much since he's an insta-win card. Just have Felix make a senti that senses miraculous or akumas and let it track down Lila. Or a senti that senses akumas, teleports to them, and captures them before they infect anything. Problem solved! Day saved!

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

For those who are still watching canon, I have to ask: did Felix get to do anything as Argos this season? I know he appears at the start of Revelator when the teenagers all willed themselves into adulthood, but that seems to be all we see of Argos. A brief skim of the wiki indicates Felix only got real screen time Yaksi Gozen and even then he's a civilian from start to finish. Kagami gets to transform in that episode, but Felix is incapacitated by a senticommand so he can't help. How interesting. I wonder why the writers did that? Could it be that Felix has an overpowered miraculous so the writers are actively keeping him out of the action?

I have no strong feelings re: Felix so I'm not upset that he's getting so little attention. I just think it's silly to give him a god-tier miraculous if you're not going let him use it. Like why did they even bother to "redeem" him? Just let him run off with the peacock never to be seen again OR let him stay a wild card who occasionally shows up to cause havoc in increasingly insane attempts to woo Kagami. Now that's a Feligami arc I'd actually enjoy! Much more fun than the mutual insta-love plot canon gave us.

Oh well, maybe Felix will get to do something useful with the peacock next season and there's still the season six final! Maybe he can do something there.

[onlyvinegar]

Could it be that Felix has a miraculous that is the physical manifestation of moral transgression, one which his using would undermine the only character motivation he has been given and be an act of hypocricy so wild that the writers would just prefer the audience not remember that too often?

(I too dream of the universe where Felix remained the unaffiliated and slightly unhinged mastermind who isn't on Team Ladybug but certainly isn't on the side of whoever is doing the supervillaining either unless there's something in it for him)

[stingerella]

Im so excited for the off screen Chloe redemption where she comes back in s9, apologises and gets forgiven off screen between s9 and 10 and is best friends with everyone in s10

[onlyvinegar]

Watch S6 starting with The Hero Team all having revealed their identities over summer break

[wisteriasymphony]

Did Tumblr get word that Félix's apology canonically happened off screen or do I have to be the one to do it again.

[wisteriasymphony]

I'm going to milk the shit out of that quote. It's funny how his apology is now relegated to the same camp as Alya's apology and Audrey and André's divorce: Off-screen and never worth touching on again. Why does he do this? What does he gain? Does this make you feel smart, Tommy?

[generalluxun]

He is apparently unable write any sort of satisfying payoff to a narrative arc, so he just skips it. I mean, considering the attempted payoffs we get, maybe this is for the best.

Felix: I did what I had to.

Marinette:ah yes, clearly. I should have known you were in danger. It's my fault. I'm so sorry. Everything you did was justified.

Kagami:Yes, it is as I said, he just does not know how to communicate.

Felix:I'm glad we got that sorted. Now, I need to go make out with my cool azn sentigirlfriend.

Adrien:*coming from the mansion* Hey, anyone know where the Mountain Dew is?

(end scene)

[onlyvinegar]

I don't know about the rest of you lot but I for one am a lot more interested in seeing Adrien confront Felix about impersonating him to backstab Ladybug, steal the miraculous and give them to Hawk Moth.

Also whatever the heck Felix did to him in That One S5 episode where he impersonated him again to infiltrate the diamond ball and temporarily end humanity for Adrien's sake. Because I'm pretty sure that one involved somehow rendering Adrien unconscious and locked up in a changing cabin.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

When it comes to the miraculous and their powers. Why is the ladybug miraculous the one with the purifying power? Like making lucky charms and restoring everything back to normal does fit with creation. But purification don't really fit. It actually fits more with the cat miraculous, as purification is just destroying the bad part of something and leaving the good part. So why didn't Chat noir get that power? He only gets the power to destroy. And apparently the power to erase memories now. (Season six gave him miraculous Chat noir that erased people's memories of finding out other's secrets thanks to the villain).

I would have loved if Chat noir got the purifying power with his cataclysm and Ladybug only had lucky charm and miraculous ladybug. That would balance out their powers more instead of just having Ladybug earn new powers every minute. But nope. Ladybug is the only true hero and Chat noir is just the sidekick.

One of my hills to die on is that Chat Noir should have the purification power (or purrification power if you want to be punny). It makes so much more sense for canon's lore! There isn't an official explanation for why canon dropped the ball on that one, but I can give you a well educated guess.

Every piece of audiovisual media goes through a development process where it's taken from an initial concept to a finished creation. How much that process changes the concept varies wildly. In some cases, the initial concept and the final product are near-perfect matches. In others, the concept undergoes massive changes to the point where the initial concept and final product don't even feel like they're in the same genre. Miraculous falls into that second category. There is no tell-all documentary on Miraculous' development, but shared concept art and various interviews have let fans piece together a high-level picture of the story.

The original pitch for Miraculous was a show for adults with Marinette as a solo hero. Somewhere along the line, the show switched its target audience and Marinette gained a team that included a black-cat themed hero named Felix. Based on the concept art for that setup and the fact that other concept art shows Marinette with an all-girl team, it seems like Felix was not her co-star at this point, but I could be wrong about that. When the team idea didn't sell, most of the cast was cut and the show became about a duo - Marinette and Felix - with the powers of good and bad luck.

In this version of the show, Chat Noir was Ladybug's co-star, but he wasn't her loyal partner. He was more of a morally gray character who had his own motivations and goals separate from being a hero. The creators decided they didn't like this setup for a number of reasons. One of the big ones was a concern that Felix wasn't a good lead for a children's show so they scrapped almost everything they'd developed for his character and created Adrien to take his place. When this change happened is unknown, but since Felix was being animated as late as August 2012, it was probably after that.

This is where I remind you that the show came out in September 2015 and animation timelines require scripts to be locked in at least a few months in advance. You also need to give the writers time to write and edit the scripts which means that the Felix-to-Adrien rebrand would not have had three years to cook even if it happened soon after the Felix animation was created. It probably only had months or even weeks depending on when Felix got scrapped and that's not even touching on all the other changes they had to make as part of this rewrite!

This timeline shows us that major elements of the story were relatively last minute additions/changes which brings us to my educated guess: the issues you brought up exist because they're artifacts from earlier concepts that weren't properly reworked when the concept massively changed. The creation and destruction powers are just rebranded good and bad luck powers instead of powers designed around the forces they're supposed to represent and Chat Noir doesn't feel like an equal to his supposed partner because, for most of the development process, he wasn't her partner.

This is also my best guess as to why Adrien's character is such a mess. The quick turn around means that he was probably more a concept than a character when the show started as the transition from Felix to Adrien seems to have been a bit of a mess. For example, there was a time when Adrien was supposed to be disabled. I think that was even the original logic for why he was kept home, but I couldn't find a source for that. I did confirm that - at that point - he wasn't a model. I would love to see Adrien's entry in the first show bible because I bet it was sparse!

*Note I believe that Felix's name was changed to Adrien before the personality switch was finalized, but the fandom and the creators all refer to the pre-rework version of the character as "Felix" since the personality differences make him a distinct character who has more in common with canon!Felix than canon!Adrien. I have adopted that naming convention in this summary.

[onlyvinegar]

The obligatory reminder about how arguably THE central element defining Adrien's character had not been cooked up by the initial draft of "Origins".

[generalluxun]

"The adults were afraid of her." Astruc out here acting like Chloé would send the authority figures to the cornfield if she didn't get her way, when the actual power and source of fear was her father and whenever she couldn't rely on him to solve her problems for her she usually just pouted and sulked off.

Meanwhile, the character who actually sent the whole city to the cornfield (Félix)...

Yeeep. The overreach is so bad I wouldn't be surprised if we saw him in a sling.

[dameroug]

Queen of Dreadzone sucked

I already blew off steam and ranted plenty after watching it, and to summarise..

This is Derision levels of hypocrisy - being an abuse victim is no excuse for bullying, but stalking and obsessiveness are excused by trauma; refusing to let go and move one from your old enemies is petty and a sign of a weak, angry person, but the shows creator can dedicate at least one episode per shows season, to shit on his least favourite character and target a fanbase surrounding her FOR YEARS after her character assassination in canon

I liked Sabrina confronting her abuser and moving on, but it had to be ruined by Marinettes edgy aah laughter and corny zingers in response - you’re NOT taugh, lil bro😭✌️

You could physically see the writing quality taking a deep for this particular episode, which happens every time Thomas pushes his own agenda no matter what

This is JUST a season 5 Chloe ark rehash - this episode serves NO PURPOSE outside those few Lila and Noe involving scenes

Im not even that huge of a fan of Chloe, but this pettiness makes me want to be one with intensity out of pure spite. You’ll never make me hate her, Astruc - how about you touch some grass instead of arguing with your fanbase on Twitter 24/7

[generalluxun]

If the stuff about the universe being destroyed and recreated means that everyone alive is just a clone of the people who existed in the old universe, then under no circumstances should anyone use the wish. But if it is just the equivalent exchange thing, then you can probably create a bunch of moral wishes. It depends on how strict the equivalent exchange is, but Gabriel was literally hours away from death when he sacrificed himself to save Nathalie, and as such the rules seem to be very flexible. So here are some things that the heroes could probably wish for: 1. The butterfly miraculous. In order to gain possession of it, the current owner must lose possesion of it, but that it a feature, not a bug. 2. Adrien, Kagami and Felix stop being sentimonsters, and in exchange three random dogs become sentimonsters.

3. Marinette learns who owns the butterfly miraculous, and in exchange, Lila forgets that she owns the butterfly miraculous.

4. Adrien stops being a sentimonster, and in exchange Lila becomes a sentimonster. Then she can remotely order her to reveal herself (Gabriel was able to order Adrien not to kiss Marinette when he couldn't hear him) and hand over her miraculous. This is a bit morally dubious, I admit, but it would be more moral than covering up Nathalie and Tomoe's crimes, so it would probably be in character for Marinette.

The moment they tried to have rules for the wish they opened a pandora's box. They started out simply with 'a great cost' they waffled to exchange, they swapped to universal destruction, and they landed on user-benefit equivalent exchange.(An almost dead and disintegrating Gabriel resurrected and made perfectly healthy Nathalie)

There are millions of uses for a wish like that. *Not* using that power is a moral failing ala Spiderman's story.

[chronicallylatetotheparty]

Gonna start referring to Chat Blanc as the Good Ending if the fandom doesn't shut up about Marinette's feelings istg.

[mysticcheesecakebouquet]

[ilikekidsshows]

MLB: Eat the rich!

Also MLB: Leave the corrupt politician alone!

---

EAT THE RICH! But only this specific teenage girl!

[frubble-warrior-129]

Emotion and as an episode is fucked up for this. We have an entire ball centered around parents treating their children like prized objects, and yet it’s only Adrian and Kagami who we should pity? Commentary so awful it’s practically satire of said commentary.

[generalluxun]

ML went to Epstein Island and said 'These two kids only'.

[generalluxun]

Anyone want to make odds we get Chloé looking directly at the camera and saying 'You know, my daddy taught me right from wrong, I just ignored him.' in the new episode?

[ilikekidsshows]

I really hate how the show going from "Yes they are the akuma victim, because HM preyed on their negative emotion and make them do bad things" to "Um... Maybe they're not a victim after all, they can break free if they don't want to be akumatized." because we're going from Pixelator where he got forced to submit to HM order to S4 where people not only break free from the akuma right and left, there's also Jalil who WANTS to be akumatized. So WHAT! ARE! THEY?! Marinette who's willing to get akumatized in order to get Cat Noir's identity, Nino who want to killed Cat Noir until he realized that Alya is only loves him, are they victim or an accomplice???

---

Yeah, like, making people able to resist Akumas was one of the worst mistakes the show ever did, specifically because it opens up the Pandora's Box for us to even have these kinds of conversations. Like, Lila used to be a standout because she was the only one who seemingly got Akumatized willingly. She seems to remember what happened and the Akuma retreating leaves her standing when everyone else was kneeling on the ground, brought low by their moment of weakness.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

It's funny to me how you put these tags just as the newest episode revealed that Nathalie has been working for a secret organization this entire time and is taking commands from her dad who surprise surprise wants the ladybug and cat miraculouses

(Post in question for context)

[Image transcript: a series of tags reading "She is not a safe person and I HATE that she knows Marinette's identity Wtf is this show doing? Nathalie knowing Ladybug's identity should be a terrible thing that makes Marinette quit"]

Oh, so that's why Nathalie refused to turn herself in and convinced Ladybug to lie in the London special!

Nathalie: It's time to tell the truth. Bug Noire: If you do that, you'll go to jail. Nathalie: Isn't the truth worth it? Bug Noire: If you tell the truth, Adrien will have no one left. He'll have lost his mom, his dad, you. Nathalie: He will have you. Bug Noire: It's not' the same. He needs a mother. Nathalie: I'm not his mother. Bug Noire: You're the closest thing to a mother he's got. (Bunnyx runs over to the window as it continues playing)That's why Gabriel Agreste sacrificed himself, it's what finally made him a good father to Adrien and that's what Adrien should remember. Nathalie: Don't you want to tell Adrien that his father was Monarch? Bug Noire: The only thing I can fix is the way Adrien will remember his father. Nathalie: But that would be lying to him.

Oh, wait, no, my bad, that's the exact opposite of what happened in this dialogue! Why would you write the scene like this if Nathalie is still evil? And if Nathalie isn't evil anymore, then why is she keeping the evil organization a secret from Ladybug? This seems like something Ladybug should know about and this dialogue does not set Nathalie up as wanting to maintain secrets. Nothing in the special does!

[Image description: Fear from Pixar's Inside Out yelling "Boo! Pick a plotline!"]

I haven't seen El Toro De Piedra, so maybe there's something I'm missing, but doesn't this secret organization reveal basically destroy the popular argument that Nathalie is obeying Marinette's wishes re the lies because Nathalie no longer trusts herself to make good calls after all her years supporting Gabriel? If that was really the case, then Nathalie would have told Marinette about the secret organization and let Marinette decide what to do, but it sounds like that's not what happened. Nathalie feels totally comfortable making all the calls and controlling the information re the evil organization! She's only leaving Marinette to make the calls when it comes to Adrien's relationship with his father, a thing Marinette knows almost nothing about but that Nathalie actively watched deteriorate over the entire course of Adrien's life.

You can't have this both ways. Either Nathalie is a broken woman who is basically Marinette's puppet or Nathalie is a functional adult who is fully responsible for her own choices. Pick a lane.

I'm posting this now instead of waiting for the script because this is going to bother me until I get an answer. I legitimately want to know if the episode does anything to address any of these issues. Based on this ask, this is just adding fuel to my, "Nathalie should have been the liar" stance. Why is Marinette even involved in the lies if Nathalie is the one with all the actual secrets and information? It doesn't sound like the lies are doing anything interesting for Marinette's character or her relationship with Adrien. Can Adrien please get someone in his life who actually respects him? Can the writers please get rid of the asinine "Marinette must be wrong" rule when it makes no sense for the actual plot?

Gods, if Nathalie was actually written as still evil then this could have been amazing! The plot beats are all there, the writers just failed on every level. I'm still annoyed that her undoing Adrien's senticommands was presented as her being a good mom and not as her just using Adrien to fuck with Gabriel. Let my evil queen be an evil queen, gods damn it!

[ohitsababydragon13]

I think they are trying to make Nathalie some sort of double agent like Snape, the problem is that

1. It's terrible written, with absolutely to mention or foreshadowing to this situation even existing. I mean, you can count the Agreste-Tsuguri alliance but they never expanded much beyond that, and as far as we are concerned it was just the two of them.

2. Why hiding it from Maribug? A whole organization you've been part of for who knows how long wants the miraculous of a girl you see on the regular and who you helped defeating the Paris terrorist supervillain and hide the truth from everyone, and you decide to not tell her anything of this when it could very much put her and the secrets you share in danger?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't make sense. Nathalie, as always, is being a terribly written character.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I'm obviously biased toward evil Nathalie, but I'd be fine with good Nathalie too so long as it was well written. The problem is that it's not. As you so rightly pointed out, the issue isn't that it's uninteresting for Nathalie to be the daughter of a villain. The issue is that nothing about this reveal makes sense! Forget lying to Adrien about his father, these lies are now the most concerning lies in the series! The Adrien thing is just cruel on a personal level. Keeping this evil organization's existence a secret from the heroes is dangerous on a global scale! Maribug and the rest of the crew need to know about this so they can protect themselves and others.

Not telling the heroes about this is putting Nathalie in the same position that she was in season five: redeemed in name only. She's not actually being a good person, she's just making sure that the status quo doesn't change. It is the worst way you could possibly play her. She's so incredibly weak and boring now! I don't understand what her character is even supposed to be! Like Lila, they have failed to give her a clear motivation and it just ruins her because it's way too late in the game for this level of ambiguity. Nathalie isn't mysterious, she's nonsensical.

I mentioned in the first post that this was just adding fuel to my "Nathalie should be the liar" stance, but the more I think about it, the more I'm shifting toward this adding fuel to my "Emilie should have been revived and made the liar" stance.

Nathalie suddenly having a supervillain father feel forced because Nathalie has been here for five freaking season and this was never set up. Emilie, on the other hand, is a total unknown to the audience. We've barely even heard her voice! Giving her a supervillain father would feel like way less of a retcon both because she's new and because we already knew that she was the daughter of a wealthy and powerful family. We also knew that she and Gabriel somehow learned about and found two miraculous. That's a solid setup to reveal that she was involved with the miraculous before she met Gabriel. It's what I like to do with her, too! Just more benign than this.

Imagine if Werepapas had just been about Emilie's parents coming to see her and Emilie was the one who got akumatized over them trying to control her life again! You could also have her parents akumatized over her refusing to obey them. Either way, the episode would end without any kind of redemption. Instead, her parents would leave and her father would say something ominous, but cryptic. We'd then have this episode where it's revealed that Emilie is answering to her parents because she's afraid for Adrien's safety or that her parents will out Gabriel being the villain. Something like that. It just feels so much more natural than Nathalie being a supervillain's daughter out of freaking nowhere. This supervillain reveal makes more sense for Lila than Nathalie!

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

We're almost to the end of season six and, from what I've seen/heard, all of the above holds true. Marinette knowing everything and being the liar was a terrible idea. Emilie should have been revived as a morally grey Nathalie replacement and the lies should have come from her for many reasons. A big one is that Emilie was in a coma for the first five seasons so she doesn't have the full picture of just how awful Gabriel was. That adds some nice complexity to the lies where they're still awful, but the person who told them genuinely didn't know just how bad they were so it's easier to forgive her than it is to forgive a character like Marinette or Nathalie.

You could go the evil Emilie route, but I wouldn't. I'd play her the way they're playing Nathalie because it would actually work if Nathalie was a new character. The evil organization plot is a nice way to thread the needle on Emilie where she doesn't feel like a bigger, badder Gabriel thereby calling into question if he was evil or just the puppet of the real evil: his wife. Instead, Emilie could be a kind person who struggles to stand up for herself. We would learn that she relied on Nathalie and Gabriel to do that for her and now that they're gone, she's lost leading to a lovely arc where she grows a backbone for the sake of her son because Adrien deserves at least one parent who actually loves him and Emilie deserves to be an actual character instead of a perfect, flawless doll. Season six could be all about fixing that mother/son bond and could end on Emilie revealing the existence of the evil organization which would be the new villain moving forward. That's a solid plot for a bridge season (soft reboot's opening season which is supposed to feel like a season one so people can just start there and skip the early show).

The season six final would need to be truly spectacular to change my mind on any of that and, given the show's track record re: season finals, I'm not holding my breath.