Charlie is a phenomenal main character. A horrible person, but a fantastic character. Hear me out.
Hazbin Hotel has serious issues: true.
Charlie is a horrible friend: true.
Charlie has the makings of an amazing protagonist: true.
The series is about redemption. That’s not going to be believable if the protagonist doesn’t need to redeem herself. Besides, a lot of main characters are boring to begin with because they get it right anyway, leaving no room for character development. If we’re going to complain about the storytelling being rushed (which it is) we also need to celebrate when things take longer to develop. Things like Charlie.
Parentage
Let’s start with the basics. Charlie is the crown princess of Hell, being the daughter of Lucifer and Lilith. Growing up as a crown princess is immediately going to lead to naivety and privileges that she’s obviously not aware of. Do those things need to be addressed? Yes, obviously. That’s going to be her character arc. But beyond that, let’s look at her parents and her relationship with them.
Lucifer Morningstar
Lucifer gave humanity free will. As a result, humans gained the ability to sin. Sinners needed punishment, directly causing the creation of Hell and the fall of Lucifer. Lucifer is surrounded by the negative consequences of his actions, never seeing the positive consequences. No wonder my guy is depressed as all Hell. Let’s zoom in on the depression for a moment. According to the DSM-5, the diagnosis for major depressive disorder requires at least five symptoms during the same two-week period that are a change from previous functioning. In addition, depressed mood and/or loss of interest/pleasure must be present, and symptoms clearly attributable to another medical condition must be excluded. Symptoms include;
Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day.
Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day.
Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain, or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
A slowing down of thought and a reduction of physical movement (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down).
Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day.
Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day.
Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day.
Recurrent thoughts of death, recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
We don’t know much about his relationship with Charlie from start to finish, but we can deduce some information. For one, Charlie states in “More Than Anything” that when she was small, she didn’t really know him at all. We also know that Lucifer only contacts Charlie when he needs something, and she didn’t contact him until Season 1 Episode 5. We also know that Alastor plays into the idea that Lucifer is a bad father to get under Lucifer’s skin, and it works, meaning Lucifer is likely very insecure about his parenting. Not to mention that because of his isolation and depression, he’s estranged from the world around him. Let’s not forget that symptoms of depression include the diminished ability to think or concentrate and the slowing of thought, plus paying attention to the world around him would be constant confrontation with the very source of his depression.
What do you reckon that would do to his ability to raise Charlie, even before Lilith left? Research shows that children of fathers with depression have decreased social functioning (Goodman and Tully, 2006; Weissman et al., 2016), as well as fathers with depression showing less positive parenting behavior in general (Wilson and Durbin, 2010). This does not excuse Charlie, obviously. However, it does illustrate what her foundation is when we meet her as a character.
Lilith
If we know little about Lucifer, we know nearly nothing about Lilith. What little we know is that she dislikes authority, wants to empower demons, is a great leader, and can be single-minded to the point of ignoring those she deemed unimportant. We also know that Charlie didn’t have a great view of her father, and “More Than Anything” shows her being carried away from Lucifer by Lilith. One could deduce that after Lucifer’s depression, Lilith lost respect for him; at least in Charlie’s memories. Even now, she’s been gone for eight years with neither her husband or daughter seemingly knowing why. Hell, Lucifer can’t even confidently say whether or not Lilith would be proud of Charlie. It’s implied that Lilith was the main leader of Hell, so one can also question how involved she has been in Charlie’s raising and worldview. I wish I could make this part as long as Lucifer’s, but based on what we have, let’s just say there’s some Mommy Issues at play.
So now what?
Charlie is sheltered, privileged, and unbearably naive. Her actions put people in danger, such as during Season 1 episode 4 and Season 2 episode 3. She blindly believes that not only can everyone be redeemed, she assumes everyone wants to be redeemed. She still doesn’t recognize that the Vees will never be on her side, not because of evidence but because they simply are against her. She becomes single-minded to the point of breaking boundaries, especially those of Angel Dust. She doesn’t listen to Vaggie, her literal girlfriend, because she believes her dreams are more important than realism.
And I hope this won’t change until Season 3.
Charlie’s foundation is, ironically enough, stable as of now. Sure she learns some things, but there’s no changes to who she is as a person. Why? She hasn’t faced any need to yet. In psychology, this can be referred to as a stochastic process; a state of chaos that has yet to stabilize. Chaotic processes are also relevant to psychotherapy, not just in the sense that people can benefit from a wider range of behavior, but also in how our attention or conscious experience can similarly start to explore a wider range of possible perceptions of our environment, as well as a wider range of inner psychological experience, and escape being ‘stuck’ in a particular range of perception and experience.
Things need to fundamentally fall apart for Charlie to change and achieve a new, improved state of stability. Let her mess up. Let the Vees take the upper hand, let her friends turn on her, let Vaggie get fed up. Charlie needs to lose her sense of stability. Only then will she recognize that she’s not just in the wrong because she doesn’t happen to know something, but because her view of the world is fundamentally flawed. Let Season 2 be this stochastic process.
Let Season 3 have her learn, and change for the better. Give this process time. She does bad things, she needs to continue getting worse and becoming a worse character, and only then will improvement be realistic and feel like it matters. Not only will she be confronted with what it means to atone, but it will strengthen her bonds with those around her too. And, more than anything, it will make for an interesting main character. Where many protagonists are boring and flat because they’re already perfect, Charlie is going to have to grow. Good. That makes this interesting.
Before we get started: Discussions on this post are more than welcomed as long as you keep it civil and constructive. At the end of the day, this is still a game about fictional characters, so there's no reason to literally harass others over liking or disliking a character
If it truly upsets you that much--which is valid btw--than the best thing to do would probably be to simply not engage with the other party, and not harass them over it; you won't change anyone's mind that way. I know most of you aren't like this but unfortunately it still needs to be said
Also, if you want me to add sources to some points, feel free to ask! I've tried to mention the chapters as I go, but I might still have forgotten some. Some of the arguments I make are also hidden behind certain player options; if you can't find them, fell free to ask about them and I'll gladly tell you
Also also, general spoiler warning for both the og game and Nightbringer. I'm not really covering anything specific after lesson 60 in the og game and lesson 14 in NB, but I might still mention things from later lessons
Now, onto the actual topic. There've been quite a few arguments against Solomon in the past few days, but I mostly just want to focus on those three:
Solomon wanted to force MC into killing Lucifer at the end of season 2 in the og game
Solomon betrayed the brothers and keeps hiding behind "wanting to protect humanity" as a scapegoat for his actions (putting these two together bc I think they go hand in hand, but it'll make more sense later)
Solomon tricked Asmodeus into a pact without his consent
This entire thing is very long, so feel free to jump around if one point interests you more than another
Solomon wanted to force MC into killing Lucifer at the end of season 2 in the og game
[mainly 38-12, og & 38-15, og]
He did, yeah. But here's the thing
They were all forced into a corner since the fate of all three realms was on the line here, and with the Ring of Light's whereabouts still being unknown at the time, they literally had no other choice if they wanted to save everyone. It wasn't Solomon that randomly decided the only way to restore the Night Dagger's power was by killing a powerful demon, it's always been that way. And he can't just be like "Oh well, let's switch strategies then and focus on finding the Ring of Light" when the entire cast (minus Simeon) has no idea where the ring is and the last time any of them saw it was centuries to millennia ago, if not longer. They don't have the time to search for it considering all the destruction MC's Ring has already caused in such a short period of time
Solomon first tells MC to do kill Luci, only to add that he was just joking and knows MC would never actually go through with it. Then, he says that if they wouldn't do it, he'd do it himself. Which kinda sounds like forcing, right? Except this happens [38-15, og; pic below]:
He was prepared to, which doesn't clear him of trying to indirectly force MC, let's get that straight. But ultimately he drops it and accepts that maybe their only option really is to just die here. This is also the only time we see him acting against his beliefs btw
Also yes, Solomon might not have been the one that decided they needed to kill a powerful demon, but he seems to be the one that settled on said demon being Lucifer. The only other viable options would most likely be Diavolo and Barbatos. Don't know if the Demon King in his vegetative state still counts but similar to Diavolo, killing him would probably be seen as a direct declaration of war, so they're out. And from a strategic standpoint, Barbatos is the better option to be kept alive simply because of his powers. There most likely also is some kind of sentimental attachment at play here since Solomon is much closer to Barbatos than he is to Lucifer. None of justifies killing Lucifer of course, but we also need to acknowledge that everyone's hands were tied, they were out of time and given the circumstances, this was probably the best decision they could have come to (until Simeon showed up with the Ring of Light, of course)
Solomon betrayed the brothers and keeps hiding behind "wanting to protect humanity" as a scapegoat for his actions
First of no, he did not betray them. Ever since the end of season 2 Solomon has made it clear that his ultimate goal is to protect humanity and that he, similarly to Diavolo in regards to the Devildom and its denizens*, would do anything in his power to protect the human world and its inhabitants [38-15, og; pic in the point above] [38-19, og; pic below]
*friendly reminder that Belphie was charged with treason for planning to destroy the human world, since in Diavolo's eyes that would have severely damaged the chance of peace between the three realms [13-14, og]
Solomon continuously sticks to his beliefs. He said he'd protect humanity, and that's what he's doing. He never extended that kind of protection to the brothers, he never made any false promises, he didn't betray them in any way, nothing
I'd also like to point out he's not actively going out of his way to antagonize demons, or angels, or whatever. In fact, he even explicitly says that he does not wish to make an enemy out of either party [10-A, NB; pic below], which of course also extends to the brothers
You can even outright ask him if he's planning on backstabbing the brothers, and this is what he has to say [11-8, NB; pic below]:
And you know what? That is a valid concern. They can't say for sure what the future holds, and they just recently had to deal with the entire Ring situation that could have very easily destroyed all three realms, so wanting to be cautious and to be prepared for the worst makes sense. He also makes it clear that he does not wish to fight the brothers if it can be avoided, so there's that
And no, he's also not tricking MC into siding against the brothers in Nightbringer. Rather, he just wants to know that they're fighting for humanity should the relationship between humans and demons in general ever turn hostile. He puts the cards open on the table and gives a proper explanation to his reasoning for siding with humanity [11-8, NB], and once again goes a little further into detail before MC gives their answer [14-16, NB; pic below]. Plus it's up to the player if they choose to stand with him or not, and no matter what you choose, he accepts the decision
Also keep in mind that season 3 heavily suggests that the human world at large has no idea that angels and demons even exist, so MC is pretty much the only one he can even ask to help protect humanity alongside him to begin with. He can't just go up to a random guy on the street and ask them to fight something who's existence they aren't even aware of in the first place
Imo Solomon also seems to know more about where things might be heading than he lets on, with him actually knowing Nightbringer and whatnot, so granting himself some peace of mind by making sure he has at least one ally is perfectly reasonable
Also, Solomon is very much aware that he is not infallible. For example, he states that he realized he still has a lot more to learn about demons [60-20, og], and he even admits that he doesn't always know what the right course of action to any given situation is, which was part of the reason he first asked MC to help him with protecting humanity all the way back in season 2 [38-19, og; first pic below]. In season 2 he actually wanted for MC to be aware of what's happening, but it was Diavolo that decided it would be better to keep them in the dark for the time being [36-18, og]. He trusts MC's judgment and that they will help him make the correct decisions [14-16, NB; second pic below]
Solomon tricked Asmodeus into a pact without his consent
Before I get into anything, let's summarize the base situation so everyone's on the same page. This is based on the things Asmo tells us [53-16, og], as well as the things Sol tells us [6-18, NB]:
Asmo was trying to flirt with someone but their friends kept on telling him to leave them alone since he's a demon
-> Asmo's dejected by this and goes to a tavern in Solomon's hometown
Solomon notices and feels sorry for him; he offers to talk to him and they chat for a bit
Asmo lets it slip that he's Lucifer's younger brother
they get drunk and end up forming a pact
-> Solomon says that he was only able to forge a pact with Asmo because his judgment was impaired at the time
Right of the bat--yes, the way Solomon got his pact with Asmo is not okay. I'm not putting that up for debate. He fully took advantage of Asmo here, and there's nothing that can excuse that. I also want to make it very clear that it is in no way my intention to relativize this in any way. The way he went about getting this pact is, to put it simply, fucked up and I do not wish to condone that in any way. With the following points I simply want to explain how I see things. Maybe it'll put things in a slightly different perspective for you, maybe it won't. Now, I hope I made that clear enough, so let's continue
The way I see it, Asmo seems to be pretty okay with the pact. From the way he acts around Solomon in the present day all the way to him describing his reaction to the pact as just a "did I really sign that" [53-16, og], nothing seems to suggest that he holds any ill feelings towards Solomon, and personally I don't see any reason to be angry for someone who himself seems to take no issue with a situation that is directly about him
If it were as upsetting to Asmodeus as some make it out to be, surely he would have found a way to get out of it? Asmo is one of the most powerful demons in the Devildom; if he truly wanted to break the pact he could have just killed Solomon and that's it. And if the pact itself somehow prevented him from doing so, I'm sure Lucifer would have more than gladly stepped in. Heck, I bet all of the brothers would have made it into a family thing in a heartbeat if Asmo wanted out but couldn't do anything himself. As Thirteen told MC, Solomon is immortal, not unkillable
But speaking of Lucifer, shouldn’t the same sentiment about forcing others into a pact be held toward him, too? Because he basically did the same thing with MC. This is what happens when you tell him you don’t want a pact with him [20-14, og; pic below]:
Yes, this comes down to player choice and yes, you need to make the pact for story continuity, but it ultimately does not change the fact that in-universe he forces MC into a pact if they say no
Also speaking of forcing others into a pact--Mammon and MC, anyone? Yes, MC did it because Levi asked them to so he could get his money back. We know they had no ill intentions. But you never know what the future holds and Levi literally proposed to basically hand over part of Mammon's agency over himself for the money Mammon owns him, to someone Levi has met about 5 minutes prior, knows nothing about and who's only been in the Devildom for a couple of hours at that point, no less. Lucifer also mentions that demons literally cannot resist temptation [4-10, og; pic below], so there literally was no way Mammon could have just noped out of that pact. We all know how badly he wants his credit card back, after all
To top it all of, we have MC's and Mammon's conversation in Nightbringer where Mammon explicitly says that he would only want to forge a pact with someone that is special to him [2-9, NB], and that he'd make sure to be their first pact [2-11, NB], yet he is forced into his pact with MC. A pact that ultimately turns out to be exactly what he wanted, but nonetheless he was stripped of the ability to say no when it was forged
And for the record, I'm not saying "oh, others did it too, so we shouldn't be so harsh on Solomon!!!" No! Forcing a demon into a pact isn't something that should be taken lightly. A pact literally means a demon hands a huge chunk of control of themself over to a human for as long as the pact exists. And on the other hand, for a human, making a pact with a demon usually means selling their soul. Neither party should EVER be forced into it. We of course don't know if MC actually sold their soul to Lucifer when they made their pact, but even if they didn't, Lucifer's "I won't belong to you. You will belong to me" speaks for itself
What I am trying to say here is that if you want to be mad at Solomon for forcing Asmo into a pact without Asmo's consent (which, again, is valid), you should also be mad at MC for forcing Mammon, and Lucifer for forcing MC into a pact
Anyway, back to Solomon now
Solomon actually admits that he used to treat demons like collectables--more or less, at least since he immediately follows the confession up with "just kidding" [14-14, NB]. Judging by what we've seen in the og game though, he seems to genuinely make an effort to better his relationship with the demons he has made a pact with, or at the very least with Asmo and Barbatos. I mean, the difference between Sol's relationship with Barbs in the og game vs in Nightbringer is night and day
In the present time, Asmo and Solomon are also super close. I literally cannot think of a single instance where they did not get along (though it might have happened like once or twice). You can literally pic any part in the og game to see their relationship play out, but some highlights include Solomon saying he got a huge oil painting of Asmodeus as his "permit" to summon Asmo across worlds [39-13, og] (which is not something you would allow someone you hate to do btw) and both of them mentioning that the two of them repeatedly hang out together in the human world [Proud Brothers, devilgram on Asmo's page, og], the hickey on Solomon's neck that's most likely Asmo's doing [Who Left the Hickey?, daily chat with Mammon, og]. Asmo (while drunk) is comfortable enough to tell Solomon that his cooking sucks and Solomon actually takes it to heart [47-16 hard mode, og]. Then there's Asmo's excitement at Solomon being in the Devildom for the first time [Proud Brothers, devilgram on Asmo's page, og; both of the pics below]
There's also that infamous chat pic of them doing face masks together (that I unfortunately don't know which chat it belongs to, so if someone could tell me, I'd appreciate it <3)
I don't know about you guys, but that's not typically an activity I do with someone I despise
So it's clear that current day Asmo holds no malice toward Solomon
Which, finally, leaves us with the way they forged their pact in Nightbringer
[mainly 7-12, NB & 7-15, NB]
@impish-ivy already went over it in this post, especially in the tags (I highly suggest checking out the reblogs as well btw), but to reiterate--Asmo was IN NO WAY forced into that pact. His brothers tried to talk him out of it, but at the end of the day Asmo willingly agreed to it. Yes, they were in a dangerous situation, and yes, Solomon used that as a basis to ask for the pact, but as ivy correctly points out in the tags, Lucifer could have easily handled the situation by himself, yet Asmo agreed regardless. By implying that Asmo was in any way, shape or form forced into that pact you're not only taking away a huge amount of his agency, but you also deny him his character moment and development that came with this scene. Asmo himself says that forging this pact will finally help him accept himself as a demon. Taking this moment from him is doing him a huge disservice
Aaaand that's pretty much all I have to say
If there's anything else you'd like to add, OR if there's anything you don't agree with, feel free to share! And once again, I'd like to remind everyone that civil and constructive discussions are more than welcomed on here!
Anyway, thank you all for reading, hope you have a great day! <3
This goes for assholes, too, guys. I know a couple who went tubing once, and they had to re-air their tubes, but the guy thought it would be funny to stick the tip of the air compressor up to her bikini trunks, the air ruptured something inside her and she died within thirty minutes.
Reblogging with a link because I thought this was a legit joke. Never heard it before. Like I knew you could kill a person by inserting air into a vein but still.
When Ulira Derosier’s half-hearted prayer is swallowed by a saint she doubts, he takes her to a world where nothing seems to go wrong. All appears to be saved…save for the fact that paradise isn’t quite what she expects it to be, and no so-called perfect world comes without harsh lessons about life and perfection. As time wears on in the place whose open gates are always closed, Ulira slowly begins to realize how much she used to have–and how little.
ind. nonselective ASK BLOG for characters from an original novel.
a life story told by 天
