In this house we respect Sansa Stark • Started as 100% Jonsa and still mostly that but with other GoT content throughout • Northern Independence or bust • A bit put out with Jon at the moment • An unfortunate yet persistent soft spot for Jamie Lannister
Ned goes against crown and died and Sansa got captured as prisoner being 'traitors' daughter. Arya and Nym attacked joff and Sansa and Lady paid the price as Joff mentioned later. She got beaten when Robb captured Jaime and defeat Lannisters in battles. LF has abused or molesting Sansa because she looks like her mother and tool for exacting revenge from those who mock LF. Lysa tried to kill her because she thinks she is doing what Cat did in past. She has been paying for others deeds.
This is such a good point, anon. I never connected all those before! I think it’s deliberate because Sansa’s fate is tied to the larger theme of wars not benefiting of the smallfolk. They pay the price for the decisions of others:
"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are." (AGOT, Daenerys III)
Ned recognizes that this is what he did:
Yet in the end he blamed himself. "Fool," he cried to the darkness, "thrice-damned blind fool."
Cersei Lannister's face seemed to float before him in the darkness. Her hair was full of sunlight, but there was mockery in her smile. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die," she whispered. Ned had played and lost, and his men had paid the price of his folly with their life's blood.
(AGOT, Eddard XV)
And then this concept is directly connected to Sansa:
Varys smiled thinly. "Why, the realm, my good lord, how ever could you doubt that? I swear it by my lost manhood. I serve the realm, and the realm needs peace." He finished the last swallow of wine, and tossed the empty skin aside. "So what is your answer, Lord Eddard? Give me your word that you'll tell the queen what she wants to hear when she comes calling."
"If I did, my word would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor. My life is not so precious to me as that."
"Pity." The eunuch stood. "And your daughter's life, my lord? How precious is that?"
A chill pierced Ned's heart. "My daughter …"
"Surely you did not think I'd forgotten about your sweet innocent, my lord? The queen most certainly has not."
"No," Ned pleaded, his voice cracking. "Varys, gods have mercy, do as you like with me, but leave my daughter out of your schemes. Sansa's no more than a child."
"Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him. Rhaenys liked to pretend he was the true Balerion, the Black Dread of old, but I imagine the Lannisters taught her the difference between a kitten and a dragon quick enough, the day they broke down her door." Varys gave a long weary sigh, the sigh of a man who carried all the sadness of the world in a sack upon his shoulders. "The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me … why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones? Ponder it, if you would, while you wait upon the queen. And spare a thought for this as well: The next visitor who calls on you could bring you bread and cheese and the milk of the poppy for your pain … or he could bring you Sansa's head.
(AGOT, Eddard XV)
The innocent, the powerless, those are the ones who suffer, and women, even the high born, suffer in this too, and you’re right, that all throughout her story, Sansa is a victim. The Trident incident is a quick succession of other people’s choices impacting Sansa. First, she is told to get Arya to do something that the Septa had to know Arya wouldn’t want to do, and then Joffrey wont listen when she wants to turn back during their ride, and then she tries to intervene during the altercation between Joffrey and Arya, and then she is told to recount what happened and before she can finish Arya assaults her, and then, her father kills her direwolf.
The point is the injustice, and when fans try to create ways that they can read her guilt into the events, they miss that. Sansa shouldn’t be punished for other people’s wrongdoings, Lady and Mycah shouldn’t be killed. But, she is, they are, and Sansa learns this lesson, that regardless of right/wrong, she will suffer which means, when the fateful decision arises, she defies Ned because (she believed) leaving KL was another injustice in a long line of them.
She didn’t know that Ned’s true failure was using her as a pawn when he agreed to the betrothal, and taking her home was his sincere attempt to correct his mistake. This goes back to the criticism of their society, in that, with the power to dictate so much, it is the father (or brother or king’s) obligation to make a good match, to not abuse their power over women. On the larger scale, it is the King’s duty to deliver justice, for men to wage just wars. But Ned, a good man compared to just about everyone else in Westeros, failed. He looked into Lady’s eyes, saw her innocence, and killed her anyway. He tried to play the game, and the people whose lives he was responsible for died. He was entrusted with his daughter’s future, and he gave her to the lions.
Sansa calling for peace while Joffrey and Arya fight really hits me now that I think about it. Because, Arya’s instinct to protect wasn’t wrong, but it served as escalation, and now, it does seem like a mini version of Cat wanting Robb to agree to peace, and he (+the Northern Lords) demanding their justice (link). Sansa and Cat go unheeded. In Robb’s war, the smallfolk pay. At the Trident, it’s Mycah. Obviously, Arya and Robb’s choices were entirely sympathetic, but Martin clearly thinks there is a better way.
For Sansa to be the unintentional victim, even when Robb is winning, for her to be the one urging peace way back in the beginning, that’s a great setup for her to be a queen. Sansa knows the cost, she will not lightly ask it of others.
I’m really taken with all your examples anon, and how well this fits into the other critiques of their world. Thank you for sharing!
It bothers me that instead of realising how disgusting grrm was for punishing jeyne in that way because she was mean to arya, the fandom actually wants sansa to be punished to. What kind of message an author would be giving if they write a girl who wants to marry a prince and loves pretty knights and as a punishment for that she will end up with an ugly man who isn’t a better person than her and is actually one of her abusers.
I think we need to stop repeating the Arya stan’s language that Jeyne was being punished. She was abused. She did absolutely nothing to earn that abuse. She was a little girl who called another little girl mean names. I would bet we all did the same at least once or twice in our childhoods. Children deserve the chance to grow out of their childish behavior without being tortured. Punishment is being made to apologize and being sent to your room not being raped.
Jeyne was raped and tortured because characters like Littlefinger and Ramsay are evil and Jeyne was vulnerable. I’ve never seen anyone claim Arya was being punished when she was starving on the streets. Arya, much like Jeyne, wasn’t perfect but everyone seems to understand that she was a child who didn’t deserve all the bad things that happened to her. And Sansa has already suffered so much abuse. It’s disturbing that people feel she hasn’t suffered enough.
Another reason I'm in favor of the "gift" ending is this. Many Wildlings/FF may not go back beyond the wall. They struggled for years and had to raid to replace their numbers & for food and supplies. They can't even survive in the far north. Now imagine how depleted the North will be of people (men) after all these wars? North needs people & the FF need a better place they can actually survive. I think after coming across, a fair share of FF will want to assimilate & settle the gift under Jon.
I remember when making the FIND SANSA’S HUSBAND post, being relatively shocked at the complete lack of male heirs from noble houses in the North. Not to mention how many of the larger houses had already been decimated. Then came the realization that this was the state of affairs before the battle for Winterfell, and war with the Others. Needless to say, it’s not looking too hot for our friends in the North.
At first I wondered if this was all just an oversight by George, but I think he deserves a bit more credit than that. War is devastating. The North’s population, food, natural resources, and money will be wiped out. I think it would be very unlikely that George would task Sansa alone with rebuilding it.
I know it’s crazy, but hear me out. I have a hunch there’s probably a very good reason why Sigorn and Alys were introduced to the story, Jon arranges their marriage, and creates a new noble house.
I noticed that the Family Tree foreshadowing is never discussed in the ASOIAF fandom to debunk our deluded speculations.
Because it’s impregnable. There is no debunking. Their only course of action is to ignore it, and pretend it doesn’t exist. What is the counter argument to Jonnel and Sansa Stark? How do you explain it away? Impossible.
Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, married his blood relative, Sansa Stark.
Like, my god.
For the people that ship Sansa or Jon with another character, that piece of information has got to be shattering. It’s brutal. No mental gymnastics can overcome it. If I was dropped on my head as a child, eventually grew up to become a Sansan, and I saw that sitting in the Stark lineage, I’d have to move on with my life.
I would say I’ve read a good amount of the strongest theories, foreshadowing, parallels and clues that other fandoms like to champion their ships with, and I can say without bias (I mean not really, but I know I’m right), they don’t have anything even remotely as significant or glaring as Jonnel and Sansa Stark.
I started my fandom days on Reddit, knew a lot of the more well known Jonsa arguments (Ashford, the outline, drifting snowflakes), thought it was an intriguing idea, but mostly stayed impartial. It wasn’t until I made my way to tumblr long after the show ended, and I read everything in its totality, that I realized the inevitability of Jon and Sansa.
But what I’ll never forget is when I finally got to @occupyvenus‘s Jonnel and Sansa Stark post. I was DUMBFOUNDED. I could not for the life of me understand why this wasn’t the primary evidence used to support the theory. Why had I never heard of this? Why was this not in the Alt Shift X Jonsa video? Why do BNFs and the fandom not talk about this? Why is this not treated with the same legitimacy as the Ashford theory?
This is the Ashford theory on steroids.
Once upon a time, in the universe of A Song of Ice and Fire, there was a girl named Sansa Stark. She had a suitor. His name was Jonnel Stark. They were related. They married.
WHAT.
And don’t get me wrong, I bloody love the Ashford theory. It’s a brilliant piece of foreshadowing, and the parallels between Jon Snow and Valarr Targaryen are incredible (omg please read The Black Prince With The White Guardian by @butterflies-dragons).
But the thing with Jonnel and Sansa is that nobody can trot out their bullshit to dismiss it. There’s no alternative way to interpret it. Nobody can claim it’s an oopsie coincidence. There’s no playing ignorant and pretending Jonnel Stark is meant to represent Aegon VI Targaryen. Nobody is bending themselves into a pretzel trying to parallel the Hound with Duncan the Tall. Jonnel and Sansa are invincible.
There’s no way around the fact that a Jon and Sansa got married in canon. That exists. In the Stark lineage. George did that.
And that’s when I realized why I had never really heard about it before. It’s a nightmare for them, so best to not acknowledge it.
Everything about it is bad...
The lengths George went to in making sure it was abundantly clear that Jonnel Stark is a direct representation of Jon Snow. Lynara Stark? One-Eye? Made heir to Winterfell after the death of his older brother? JONnel? Hilarious. It’s so over the top, they don’t even try to posture like this could somehow not be a reference to Jon.
The timing of its release? 2014. This didn’t come out in the 90s. We’re dealing with newer material here, succeeding even the last book in the series, making this all quite relevant. Equally as bad, it predates Jon and Sansa reuniting on the show. They don’t get to claim it’s silly George giving a wink and smile to a major shipping faction, because that fandom largely didn’t exist.
The circumstances of how it came to be? A last minute add to the lineage! Are you friggin kidding me? Why so compelled to add that in, Georgie?
But worst of all? Jonos Frey. Oh my god. Jonos fucking Frey. Third son of Rhaegar Frey. That right there is the killing blow. That’s how they know this is big trouble. For GRRM to spoil the most substantial secret in the entire series (other than maybe King Bran), in the exact same way, using another little cutesy variation of Jon’s name, is devastating. There goes any hope of ever convincing yourself GRRM would never reveal something so important in such a flippant way. There goes any hope of ever convincing yourself it has to be meaningless.
So, what do they do? They ignore it. They have to. It simply doesn’t exist. They’ll dedicate themselves to countering all major Jonsa evidence with their flimsy nonsense, but they never touch this.
But never forget, if a Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, had married an Arya or Daenerys in the Stark or Targaryan lineage, you’d never hear the end of it. Never. They’d smother you to death with it. It would be confirmation that their ship is endgame, and everyone else can pack it up.
Jonsas, don’t let them gaslight you. Don’t question your own judgement of how big it is. It’s not a clue or an Easter egg, it’s a bomb sitting on a page, begging to be noticed.
Anyway, wow, this really got away from me, lol. Thanks for the message.
If anyone wants to read more about Jonnel (One-Eye) Stark, son of Lynara Stark, husband and blood relative to Sansa Stark (And why wouldn’t you!?), I implore you to read the following:
The Original @occupyvenus
Just Some Thoughts on Jonnel One-Eye Stark and Sansa Stark @estherruth-jonsatrash
Jon ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark @ladyofasoiaf
And I suppose you could read my original commentary on it, but there’s no real literary analysis, it’s just me screaming “Are you kidding me!?” for several paragraphs. :) Here.
Someone, I can’t recall who (but they’re a fellow Jonsa), recently speculated that Jon may fall for Sansa first, and initially, he would think it’s just happiness. Gotta say, that’s a damn fine idea. Allow me to paint a picture in your minds.
Phase one:
I know we grew up in the same castle together, but it’s like I’m meeting her for the first time. Funny, isn’t it? (flashback not found: Sansa BuLLyInG Jon)
Phase two:
I… I just don’t like when men look at my sister that way, okay?
Phase three:
Her long auburn hair and blue eyes are quite fetching if I do say so myself in my own private thoughts in private… and her voice when she sings…
Phase four:
Haha, Sansa and Ghost look as though they belong together.
Is there any death scene more satisfying than Ramsay’s? Sansa telling him that he will die but he spent the battle feeling arrogant until the Knights of the Vale came. Then he tried hiding behind the walls of Winterfell only to get his ass kicked. He threatened Sansa with his dogs, he chased and hunted women with those dogs and when he woke up in the kennels, he was still arrogant, believing that he owned Sansa, that he broke her, that he was still in control but he didn’t who he was fucking with.
“You haven’t fed them in 7 days. You said it yourself.”
Chills.
“Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear.”
CHILLS.
Sansa watching while the hounds tear him apart before walking away smiling is such an iconic moment. I love it.
No, there had been no interaction for months even before the last season aired, so I asked if I should close it, and, when I received no response, did. I know that there was - at the time - at least one other discord, but I can’t recall who ran it.
Yeah, She hates him so much that she appeared to be the only one who was bothered by Jon's journey to the south because apparently " men in her family don't do well in the south". Also, have these people forgotten the fact that she was the first person to fight for his "identity" (when his "true luuvvv" tried to keep his status as a bastard forever so that she can have him as his commander and fuckboy for the rest of her life) , even though she knew Dany might barbecue her for it. Arya didn't care and Jon gave up on that.
She hates him so much she brought an army back to the place where she was gaslit and abused as a child, and then directly threatened the leader of the Unsullied, one of the most elite military forces in the entire world, to get him back. Pure hatred right there.
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