Flemme un peu

[jackoshadows]

A more detailed spoiler review of the play is here.

The more detailed story is really interesting and gives more insight compared to the rushed one line spoilers.

[belladonnafeli]

The idea that Dany cares about Westeros/the Iron Throne and nothing else is so funny cause nothing in the text supports this reading. She prioritizes Westeros so much that she’s declined every opportunity to go to Westeros for the past 5 books? She chose to stay in Meereen because she prioritizes Westeros? She’s been denying Westeros for a while now, to the point that people in the fandom hate it. Unless someone can show me a time when Dany chooses Westeros over Essos idk where this comes from other than the tv show. It’s not even something she longs for in her thoughts. She just thinks about the house with the red door, which obviously represents home in an abstract sense. A place where she’s safe and happy.

[ilynpilled]

ppl r genuinely so unable to reckon w the fact that the characters in a story did not in fact read the story like them and will make claims and have perspectives according to that reality

[ilynpilled]

taking their claims at face value when u urself have access to the rest of the text and can see how they r wrong…

[thelaughingtree]

The letters honestly make Elia’s “master of the game” harder for me to buy. She knows where they are, she has Oberyn, Lewyn, Ashara and indirectly Arthur in her orbit, and the play has already established that Lyanna is basically the only thing Rhaegar gives a shit about by that point. Why is she asking Lyanna to convince him of anything? Send people to the Tower, take Lyanna out of his hands and make her safety the price of Elia and the children’s safety. Win or lose, those are your terms if you want her back alive and protected. That sounds way more like someone actually using the leverage the play handed her. Heck, if the Martells can get their hands on Lyanna, she’s leverage on both sides: Rhaegar on one end, Robert/Ned on the other. The letters feel less like a strong political move from Elia and more like a convenient way for Varys to intercept something and Gerold to finally find Rhaegar. Otherwise, the whole exchange just sounds stupid af.

The letters honestly make Elia’s “master of the game” harder for me to buy

Well, firstly, I don't think she's a master of the game, and nothing in the play indicates that she's really on board with arguably violent underhanded skullduggery (like kidnapping). She's just politically ambitious and using the soft power tools she has - diplomacy, principly - at her disposal. That doesn't mean she's like, a Varys-level schemer or hypercompetent.

She knows where they are, she has Oberyn, Lewyn, Ashara and indirectly Arthur in her orbit [...] Send people to the Tower, take Lyanna out of his hands

Arthur and Oswell are loyal to Rhaegar; anyone who wanted to kidnap Lyanna and threaten to kill her if Rhaegar doesn't join the war effort (because that is what you are proposing) would need to fight two Kingsguard AND Rhaegar to extricate her. You would therefore need to send a group of soldiers to retrieve her and possibly end up injuring/killing Rhaegar in the process (which Lewyn could not do anyway, it's against his oath, leaving really Oberyn to do this). This might simply just drive Rhaegar to find Lyanna and not actually motivate him. This would also cause an enemity between Elia and Rhaegar, which would disadvantage her later if Rhaegar wins, because he's less likely to listen to her advice or suggestions and has fundamentally lost her trust - because as queen, her leverage over the realm depends on how much Rhaegar trusts her. I think she will have lost any chance to build a positive relationship with Lyanna and her unborn child and probably caused a rift between her children and Lyanna's child - unhelpful, if you seek to try and nullify the threat of a bastard by raising them to be loyal to their siblings. But more potentially she could damage relations between Dorne and the Crown by doing this.

But more than that, I want you to think about this less as a character optimisation problem and more thematically, as a work of literature. How would it look if Elia used kidnapping, the thing the rebels accuse Rhaegar of doing, to steal Lyanna to real this time? How would that distort the narrative? Elia as it stands is political but she's not violent and she's not unkind - how would this alter her own death tonally if she treats a pregnant woman in such a manner? As it stands in the play, Elia is still an innocent victim, would the audience still feel that would be the case if she mistreats a woman and her unborn child, threatening to kill them if Rhaegar does not join the war (because the threat cannot be empty, otherwise Rhaegar would not act)?

Also, is it consistent with her character? Earlier in the play, Elia urged for subtlty and diplomacy to get other lords on side, using words of honey. Which is more diplomatic, attempting to persuade Lyanna or attempting to forcibly kidnap her? I would argue it is out of keeping with Elia's characterisation to use force in such a manner. She's not Cersei. She also seeks to preserve a good relationship with Rhaegar and establish a good relationship with Lyanna. Elia's modus operandi is 'you attract more flies with honey than vinegar', she's building relationships so she can persuade and gently pressure them, her attempting to communicate with Lyanna is consistent with her character.

Finally, I just do not think it would be possible to do this without significantly changing the narrative of the Rebellion and failing to adhere to the spirit of the books. The play makes some timeline changes for it to be easier to adapt, and it changes some characterisation where there is space, but 'secret kidnapping of Lyanna' would be a major plotbeat that would make Ned's ToJ confrontation with the three KG impossible. Any changes made *must* let that scene occur, because that's one of the few things we have a book PoV on.

If you still think that's stupid, I guess so ahead, but I disagree with this both logistically, thematically, in terms of characterisation, and in terms of keeping the relative canoncity of the play intact.

[ai-manre]

Following the Roses: A Meta

Having remerged into the fandom now after a long break, I was surprised to see all the currently prevailing ideas on a lot of things. It looks like the longer we go without the books, the more cycles and counter-cycles of convictions we have as a fandom, as our echo-chamber gets more intense and the contexts that much matter so much in canon fade. It was interesting to see all the different ideas and head-canons of people regarding R+L now in particular (with many now stalwartly characterizing Rhaegar as a prophecy-obsessed lunatic who impregnated Lyanna, with or without her will, and that Lyanna later grew to hate him). That made me curious into delving back to see what the books tell us and try to see where the narrative is leading us. Or maybe, more specifically, it's the roses I want to follow. The winter roses.

**The Introduction**

GRRM does a beautiful misdirection in the first book. Having Ned associate Lyanna again and again with the winter roses in his thoughts, by the time the origin of the winter roses is shown in Ned's last chapter, we have already associated Lyanna singularly with the roses. Rather than feeling the full impact of them being associated with her. So I'd like to go through the winter roses chronologically instead, according to the timeline.

**What is the narrative telling us?**

>Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

>Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when*Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost*.

>*Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.*

>*Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. "Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

This is the origin of the winter roses according to the timeline. We do not get mentions of Lyanna with the winter roses before Rhaegar crowned her with them. When Bran looks back in time and sees Lyanna, she's not seen around those roses. When the Northmen discuss her in her childhood, they don't mention her roses, only her horse-riding skills. In Howland's story of the wolf maid, she is not associated with them. Winter roses start featuring prominently around Lyanna Stark only after Rhaegar crowns her with them. Considering this to be the origin of the roses, I would find it safe to interpret that the roses don't solely symbolize Lyanna, but rather *the bond that grew between Rhaegar and Lyanna*. This way, the roses also work as a great narrative device for Ned to covertly think of R+L without directly giving it away to the readers.

This interpretation fits in very well with the next words, where Ned reaches out to touch the flower crown and feels the thorns underneath that claw at him. The beauty of the petals was hiding the "sharp and cruel" thorns underneath which could draw blood. Just like R+L's love which likely seemed a thing of great beauty to them, but resulted in pain and suffering for both of them and all around them. If, as some other interpretations go, the roses were meant to symbolize only Lyanna as a Stark maiden or represent her connection to Winterfell, it would make no sense for the sharp and cruel thorns to appear underneath.

In the words after, Ned describes her words from bed of blood and again, seemingly out of nowhere mentions how she had loved the scent of winter roses. Why was this sentence put here? In the middle of a seemingly irrelevant of her death? Following the narrative flow of where the roses began a few sentences ago, the meaning is clear. Lyanna had loved the scent of winter roses, loved the beauty of her bond with Rhaegar, maybe ignorant or uncaring of the thorns underneath.

>"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. "No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. *A storm of **rose** petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as **blue** as the eyes of death.*

This is our next memory of Lyanna after the crowning at Harrenhal. Ned clashes with the Kingsguard trying to get to Lyanna, Ned's subconscious and the narrative associates this clash against a background of *storm of rose petals as blue as the eyes of death*. Again, the rose petals are associated with things like pain and blood and death. The blood-streaked sky is the background of the war, the war sparked by R+L's actions, the beautiful petals are still blowing, though they are "death". Rhaegar who is dead and Lyanna who is dying, their love that has started the fire that killed them both and many more including all the kingsguard and many northmen here here. (Though the situation was far more nuanced than just R+L being responsible for all the bloodshed that happened).

> "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. *Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.* Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. *Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the **rose** petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.* After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. *"Lyanna was … fond of flowers."*

Now we come to her death. Ned remembers her room which had smelled of blood and roses. More importantly, he recalls the rose petals spilling from her palm as she died, implying that she had been holding on to them until the point of the death. The fact that her room smelled of roses itself implies that she had been making an effort to keep the roses around her, nothing was forcing her to have them around considering Rhaegar had left her months ago and died as well. (Unless anyone thinks evil Rhaegar ordered his Kingsguard to keep bringing roses to her against Lyanna's will? Or that the Kingsguard wanted to force her to continue having the roses around her? Imo that's ridiculous). It seems clear if we follow the narrative that the only roses these can be are the winter roses which connects her with Rhaegar. The fact that she took the effort to keep surrounding herself with roses, that she held onto the roses *until the moment of her death*, seems pretty irrefutable proof that she loved Rhaegar till the very end.

I have seen interpretations before that she was holding onto the roses as they symbolized her connection with Winterfell and her home. Apart from the reasons I had already mentioned above regarding why the roses clearly don't represent Winterfell, there is also the fact that if Lyanna wanted a connection to her home, her brother Ned Stark should be a much clearer option to cling onto rather than the roses connected heavily with Rhaegar (who according to this interpretation, she must have grown to hate). If it was only about her desire for home, we would have only gotten mentions of how hard she clung to Ned, there was no reason to mention the roses. But they were mentioned. And she did. She clung onto the roses as hard as she'd clung on to Ned, until death forced her to let go. This is capital R romanticism, Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, Lyanna died with his roses (the last remnant of their love) in her palm. They died thinking of each other. And the roses, the roses are now "dead and black" just as both of them are.

After remembering that moment, Ned tells Robert that he brings her flowers. That Lyanna had loved flowers (note the ellipses). Lyanna had loved the scent of winter roses, even as they'd brought her death. She had loved Rhaegar, even as that brought her so much pain.

> Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." *Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.* "I do not know which of you I pity most."The queen seemed amused by that. "Save your pity for yourself, Lord Stark. I want none of it."

Next, Ned thinks of the roses when he speaks with Cersei. And this, I love this!! Ned having to confront Robert's love for his sister and all that had cost him (not getting into Robert's vices here), knowing that Lyanna had loved Rhaegar. To see his friend cost himself a life and the love of Cersei by not getting over Lyanna, unknowing that Lyanna had never loved him! What Ned doesn't know but the narrative enriches is "I do not know which of you I pity the most" because Cersei had wanted Rhaegar as much as Robert had wanted Lyanna. Both were defeated so thoroughly by R+L's love for eachother.

>He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. *She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.* Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. The room was black as pitch, and someone was hammering on the door. "Lord Eddard," a voice called loudly.

Nothing much here, just Lyanna again with her garland of roses (aka R+L) reminding Ned of his promise to protect their only son. This is a covert reference to R+L=J. With this, we end Ned's POV and move on to the next references of winter roses.

>She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. *"And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?" "I never knew my mother. Or any such song."*

The next time the mentions of winter roses crop up again is in Jon's story, where Ygritte asks him if his mother had never sung the song of winter rose to him. To which he responds that he'd never known his mother or such a song, unknowing that this song was the hint to his mother, that this song represented her life.

>North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

>*"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." Jon had never heard this tale before.*

A singer and a Stark maiden. The Stark girl who loved Bael so much that she'd given him a son (just as Jon himself was born) and who later threw herself off a tower when her son brought her Bael's head. Quite a few narrative resonances here, death of the Stark maid in a tower, a relative who had a hand in the death of her love. "No flower so rare nor precious". Is there anything so rare and precious as true, unconditional love? As Maester Aemon says, "We are only human after all, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory and our great tragedy."

> But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. *The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.* - Theon V, ACOK

The next mention is, oddly enough, in Theon's prophetic dreams. Again, Lyanna is associated with the crown of roses Rhaegar gave her and death. The white gown might represent marriage as it is an interesting detail to have mentioned (instead of just calling it a gown) but I don't have strong opinions on it either way.

The next mention is the most interesting to me, as for the first time, the roses lead to the future rather than the past.

>Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . - Dany IV, ACOK

>"Perhaps," she said reluctantly. "Yet the things I saw . . .""A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?" - Dany V, ACOK

And what a lovely image it is. Jon, the sole child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the only remnant of their love, growing at the Wall. For once, the imagery is overwhelmingly positive. The beautiful blue rose, against all odds, flourishes in the harshest of environments and what's more, it "fills the air with sweetness". Rhaegar and Lyanna might have died, but the child that resulted from their bond is making the world better.

The Conclusion

What's more, even in the latest calendar illustration GRRM had [commissioned](https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWesteros/comments/1093bgk/2024_calendar_cover_art_by_justin_sweet/), we know instinctively that it is Rhaegar and Lyanna thanks to the winter roses. Rhaegar who crowned Lyanna with these roses. Lyanna who died clutching them till the last moment. Their son who fights to protect the realms of men, doing the duty of a King without even knowing that he is one, that he is the King of the narrative. The blue rose who continues to bloom in the harshest of places.

The significance that in the text, it's Jon and only **JON** who is connected with/represented as the blue winter rose is important. Neither of the Stark maidens, Sansa or Arya, are ever connected with the blue rose in the text itself despite both having love for flowers. No other Stark has this motif in their story. The motif belongs solely to Bael and his Lady Stark, to Rhaegar and Lyanna, to Jon himself. It's the motif of love. Prince Rhaegar had loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Lady Lyanna had loved her Prince Rhaegar and their child is saving the realms of men.

The roses that bloomed for them and between them. That showed how beautiful their love was and how painful. The world is cruel, the world is beautiful.

[m-malyar]

Bran

[gracelyns]

[freedomofthegull]

Cersei didn't have to do Jaime like that but also this is peak big sister behavior

[halidki]

dany

[thelaughingtree]

They are in the plays tag calling Elia a groomer and worse for supposedly “allowing” Rhaegar to groom Lyanna as if she had any control over that like it’s crazy. She’s a princess in an arranged marriage with a prince with more power over her. If Rhaegar took multiple teen mistresses she could not do a thing about it but manage the situation the best she could lol. I feel like people don’t get court politics and also thought the play would be two hours of Rhaegar getting called a groomer kidnapper. Like I’m sorry GRRM is not woke and does not have the sensibilities of a millennial gender studies major. Not defending him at all and I despise R/L as a ship but it is what it is lol.

Much to unpack here.

They are in the plays tag calling Elia a groomer and worse for supposedly “allowing” Rhaegar to groom Lyanna as if she had any control over that like it’s crazy.

I think before we get into this, in the play, Lyanna's age isn't mentioned. She's played by a young adult and reads as a young adult. A rather young one, who is concerned with her life being meaningful and important - a common thing a lot of young people think before they realise that they're not unique or special, there's eight billion other people on this planet, and life is hard - but still, she doesn't read as a child to the audience. Regardless of one's feelings of that choice to de-emphasise Lyanna's age, the criticism listed above doesn't make any sense in the context of the play.

And even if Lyanna was sixteen in the play, it would, as you say, not be Elia's fault. In the play, it is Rhaegar who crowns Lyanna the queen of love and duty, and Rhaegar who runs off with her. Elia had absolutely no hand in that. The play skips to Act 2, beginning with Brandon and Rickard's execution, so we do not see the direct fallout of Harrenhal or get Elia's chastising Rhaegar for it (something I'm sad we missed), but we do see in the moment that she wasn't happy about the crowning of Lyanna. The criticism you're describing is off-loading Rhaegar's own failings onto a woman who is not responsible, assuming that Elia can someone effectively control and manipulate Rhaegar as if wives are custodians of their husbands' ill deeds and Rhaegar himself isn't an adult responsible for his own action.

I feel like people don’t get court politics and also thought the play would be two hours of Rhaegar getting called a groomer kidnapper

I've looked through the tags on tumblr today and haven't seen this reaction anywhere yet - it might be buried elsewhere? I've seen much more discourse about people who feel that Elia being made a lesbian who has an open relationship with Ashara is misogynistic (... no) and orientalist (in the play in isolation? no. But, it contributes to a wider trend in canon though if you look at in conversation with ASOIAF but you should honestly take that up with GRRM first, who does it far worse. i think the play alone does not present the dornish as being overly sexual or sex-obsessed - just a culture with a different attitude towards monogamy and sexuality).

Like I’m sorry GRRM is not woke and does not have the sensibilities of a millennial gender studies major. Not defending him at all and I despise R/L as a ship but it is what it is lol.

I agree fundamentally, but I'm going to be annoying (sorry) and push back on your wording a bit, even though it's not your central point here, because I think we should be clear about what 'not woke' means here (sidenote: i hate the term 'woke' and wish people didn't use it, but that's a rant for another day). Sometimes people call GRRM 'not woke' to imply he's a conservative - he's not, he's a liberal draft-dodger who's openly a bit of a 'dirty old man' and clearly has some feelings about being an ex-catholic who was alive during the summer of love. Which means the play looks quite different to what a conservative audience expects.

This is important to highlight because it explains the varying nature of political backlash we're getting to the Mad King. Because a lot of it is conservative. There have been people angry at the casting of this play because they are racist. There have been people angry that the female characters in play who get assaulted and killed are depicted as flawed - conniving, cruel, myopic, whatever else - because they think that undermines their victimhood, as if you're only worthy of sympathy if you are a kind and courteous victim, an attitude that is fundamentally sexist and victim-blaming. There are people who chafe at the addition of an open lesbian relationship in this play because they think it 'absolves' Rhaegar - even though Rhaegar in this play shows absolutely no concern for his children, and then abandons him and his wife (the latter who is imprisoned), abdicating all responsibility until Lyanna convinces him to fight at the last moment, all reasons we should be condemning Rhaegar, and this criticism often stems from shipping wars that place Rhaegar (a white man), and the characters' relationship to Rhaegar, as the moral centre, a fundamentally sexist outlook as well. As mentioned above, there are people upset about the depiction of Dorne - but i do think this is more complex, and probably deserves to be a post in its own right, though I suspect a lot of this is also steeped in sexism, with viewers bringing their own judgements of a polyamorous free-spirited black bisexual (Ashara) and a black lesbian (Elia), by calling them 'whores' when the play is actually very sympathetic to both characters, shows them as agents, as more than sexual objects - Ashara even says 'I am not a prize to be won' at one point.

And there have also, according to you anon, been people who have been unhappy that the Mad King doesn't try to condemn Rhaegar for grooming a teenager (because if Lyanna was a teenager, it would be grooming, of that I have no doubt), who believe that because ASOIAF has spoken to them, or has some nuanced things to say about gender in some cases, or has some anti-monarchist sentiments at times (relative to the fantasy medium, where the bar is quite low, at least for the 1990s), they believe it aligns with their own politics, whatever they might be. Sadly not the case - I think it's easy to kid ourselves our favourite works of fiction agree with us. Indeed, I think the play's interpretation of R/L and of Dorne have clear roots in the text that a lot of people have tried to ignore simply because they don't like it.

[thelaughingtree]

Was Aerys hot!? 😏

asking the real questions anon!!!! he was certainly serving something

alas he only looked like this for one scene. rhaegar gave him a haircut and a trim, he looks like the below for the whole of act 2:

[wrath-of-achilleus]

D&D are not seeing heaven for making Jon unfunny in the show, a series (ADWD edition):

“Beg pardon,” he said, ignoring the flurry of feathers, “shall I fetch m’lord some breakfast?” “Corn,” cried the raven. “Corn, corn.” “Roast raven,” Jon suggested. “And half a pint of ale.” (Jon I, ADWD)

Jon hated having guards trailing after him everywhere he went. It made him feel like a mother duck leading a procession of ducklings. (Jon I, ADWD)

Boy was not the worst of the things that Jon Snow had been called since being chosen lord commander. He ignored it. “Snow,” the voice insisted, “Lord Commander.” This time he stopped. “Ser?” (Jon I, ADWD)

The red woman walked beside Jon down the steps. “His Grace is growing fond of you.” “I can tell. He only threatened to behead me twice.” (Jon I, ADWD)

Sam gingerly removed his glove. “He did. I’m bleeding.” “We all shed our blood for the Watch. Wear thicker gloves.” (Samwell I AFFC/Jon II, ADWD)

“I have slain a giant, boy. Why should I fear some flea-ridden northman who paints one on his shield?” “The giant was running away. Mors won’t be.” (Jon IV, ADWD)

“I had a frightening dream last night, m’lord,” Dolorous Edd confessed. “You were my steward, fetching my food and cleaning up my leavings. I was lord commander, with never a moment’s peace.” Jon did not smile. “Your nightmare, my life.” (Jon VI, ADWD)

By that time Jace had found his feet, so Jon put him down again. “I hate it when dead men get up. You’ll feel the same the day you meet a wight.” (Jon VI, ADWD)

Alys Karstark leaned close to Jon. “Snow during a wedding means a cold marriage. My lady mother always said so.” He glanced at Queen Selyse. There must have been a blizzard the day she and Stannis wed. (Jon X, ADWD)

“My name is Snow.” “Bastard.” “Guilty. Of that, at least.” (Jon X, ADWD)

“We say, Bleed a cold but feast a fever too,” Jon told him. “We say, Never drink with Dornishmen when the moon is full. We say a lot of things.” Mully added his two groats. “My old grandmother always used to say, Summer friends will melt away like summer snows, but winter friends are friends forever.” “I think that’s sufficient wisdom for the moment,” said Jon Snow. (Jon XIII, ADWD)

ACOK edition ASOS edition

[wrath-of-achilleus]

rhaegar’s pr manager? Absolutely no hate and I’m not flicking the little anon switch because I’m not a coward. But what are your takes on him?

ok but first you have to swear a holy oath that you mean the no hate thing 🫪

within the narrative: he was a pretty depressed individual who felt an immense amount of pressure to measure up to ideals of masculinity both within the monarchy that he was heir to and the prophecy that he thought himself the center of. but he was not delusional or crazy or even 'prophecy-obsessed' because 1) the prophecy that he believed in was real and he had full reason to believe and act on a prophecy considering that he came from a family that owed its survival to listening to a prophecy that sounded 'irrational' in the moment and 2) considering the apocalyptic nature of the prophecy, he was pretty tame in his response to it (in contrast to melisandre and stannis' religious crusade, for example), and all the text even tells us for sure is that he was aware of it. there is no solid proof that it motivated any of his actions -- from deciding to become a warrior, to running away with lyanna. I do believe that the aforementioned things were in fact partly motivated by his belief in the prophecy, but it was not even close to his sole motivation. imo, his decision to become a warrior came from his need to perform socially-expected masculinity, and his affair with lyanna stemmed from genuine love and affection. at the end of the day, these decisions can't be separated from the prophecy, because it is something that seems to have been central to his life, but it wasn't a singular, all-consuming obsession.

outside the narrative: his main meta role is to act as a foil to aerys and viserys in dany's story. unlike the other two, who were literal kings, rhaegar, though never crowned, is the one that dany considers herself the heir of. this means that he plays a largely positive and idealistic role in the story. the subversion of his character is that he is not the kidnapping, raping prince that we were led to think he was at the beginning of AGOT, and he is not like aerys or viserys. he is the representation of idealism whose story and goals both jon and dany will continue.

rhaelya: this post largely summarises my thoughts on rhaelya within the narrative, and what they mean to one another. also one of their obvious narrative purposes is that they are jon's parents -- making him both a targaryen and a stark. outside the narrative, they exist as one of the many ways to demonstrate the theme of the conflict of love and duty, and the human heart in conflict with itself, but primarily, their purpose is in relation to jon and dany's characters. both jon and dany play the parts of both rhaegar and lyanna at some point or the other in their relationships. jon is both in his relationship with ygritte, dany is also both in her relationship with daario. jon is rhaegar with arya and alys, and has parallels with lyanna in his foreshadowed relationship with dany.

as his pr manager: as far as I'm concerned, the worst thing he did was cheat on his wife, and this too, has to be situated in a world where marriages are explicitly symbols of an oppressive patriarchal institution that seeks to control women's bodies.

he was not responsible for the deaths of his wife and children. or in other words, I find that holding him responsible for the deaths of elia and their children requires judging him in ways that we do not judge most other asoiaf characters. elia and her children were supposed to be safe inside maegor's holdfast. the red keep is an incredibly secure castle, and maegor's holdfast is literally a fortress within a fortress. it is doubly defended by being at the heart of the red keep with a moat around it. the rebelling army was not supposed to reach king's landing in the first place, because rhaegar's army was thrice its size, and the only reason the army scattered was because he died. it's a bit ridiculous to seriously blame him for dying, or for not foreseeing his own death. now, he could have left more kingsguard to guard elia, but realistically that wouldn't have saved her from the lannister armies. he also was not in charge of the kingsguard, aerys was. he only got away with leaving arthur, oswell, and gerold at the tower because arthur and oswell were loyal to him over aerys. leaving three trusted knights at a tower in the middle of nowhere guarding a woman whom half the realm is looking for is also an obvious decision. elia was the wife of the crown prince, she obviously had a household guard, and targaryen soldiers, guarding the red keep. also, taking all the kinsguard except one, jaime (who was, again, aerys' choice), was an obvious decision because he was a crown prince going to battle. I've also seen the argument that since he started the chain of events that kicked off the rebellion, he is ultimately to blame for the sack of king's landing. this is like saying that brandon is ultimately to blame of the rebellion. because at the end of the day, it was brandon's rash decision to commit treason by calling for the crown prince's head in front of the mentally unstable king that got him killed. no one, let alone rhaegar and lyanna, expected him to do that. ned, catelyn, and hoster tully, all call it impulsive, reckless, and foolish. and even then, brandon is still not to blame for the rebellion. because it was aerys who killed brandon and called for the heads of ned and robert, throwing the realm into chaos. the reason why people blame rhaegar and lyanna is because robert used lyanna's name as a rallying cry for the rebellion. but it was never about lyanna or rhaegar. it was about survival. and finally, at the end of the day, the deaths of elia and the children are fully on tywin's shoulders. there was no precedent for actions so horrific and they solidified tywin's reputation as a ruthless and cunning and cruel man. blaming rhaegar for tywin's cruelty is like blaming robb for the red wedding.

calling him a groomer or a pedophile for the rhaelya age gap is like calling ygritte, an adult by our standards, a groomer for her romance with jon, a minor by our standards. if we don't villify ygritte for getting into a relationship with a 15 year old who is politically and socially less powerful than her and is also a virgin, why do we villify rhaegar?

it's not rhaegar's fault lyanna died in childbirth. again, he had no control over this, he was dead at this point. he never intended to abandon her at the tower, the presence of the 3 kingsguard (one of whom was his best friend) proves that. and the narrative also heavily implies that their relationship was consensual, so she likely chose to have sex with him and the pregnancy was a result of their love.

I've got so many more thoughts on rhaegar, but this is already pretty long, and I think I've covered most of the important bit. here are some of my previous posts where I've analysed him and his relationships and/or acted as his pr manager lol

Links under the cut

Specifically about R/L:

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/812285783672324097/do-you-think-rhaegar-had-any-romantic-interest-in?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/812377216930529280/hey-saw-your-post-about-rl-and-your-thoughts-on?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/815353134094450688/also-in-terms-of-fandom-discourse-i-think-its-v?source=share

Rhaegar and his family:

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/815360984470487040/i-know-you-are-probably-tired-of-rhagear?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/816455015699038208/do-you-think-rhaegar-loved-rhaenys-and-aegon-or?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/816637319979401216/what-do-you-think-rhaella-and-rhaegars?source=share

Me defending him from stuff I've heard in RLE discourse:

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/814389831141654528/love-is-the-death-of-duty-i-get-it-when-it?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/813927361604157441/i-actually-really-hate-how-many-people-there-are?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/813995754001694720/yall-think-this-is-the-guy-who-wrote-rhaegar-his?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/814289626432978944/the-question-of-why-rhaegar-left-three-whole?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/814917523962249216/rhaegar-is-delusional-hes-obsessed-with-the?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/814935494861406208/yall-need-to-stop-talking-about-rhaegar-like-the?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/814962139694497792/the-best-thing-robert-baratheon-did-was-kill?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/wrath-of-achilleus/815334596465016832/i-dont-know-how-rhaegar-has-fans-if-he?source=share

[wrath-of-achilleus]

I think the thing with Rhaegar and Lyanna is that they’re more than just the Crown Prince and the only daughter of Lord Stark. that’s the whole point of them running away together. they were trying (and they failed in the end) to break out of the roles imposed upon them their whole life. and gender is important here, because part of the appeal of their dynamic is the subversion of gender. Rhaegar gets to be the prince(ss) and Lyanna gets to be the knight. but the tragedy is that their shared story forces them back into their gendered roles, with Lyanna playing the part of the damsel in distress locked up in the tower and Rhaegar is the knight going to defend his lady. and their deaths end up being extremely gendered, with Rhaegar dying in the masculine realm of battle and Lyanna dying in the feminine realm of the childbed.

[wrath-of-achilleus]

also in terms of fandom discourse I think it’s v interesting how people hate acknowledging that lyanna might have been trying to escape the pressures of her all-male family when she ran off with rhaegar.

ned to a certain extent recognises this when he sees arya’s disillusionment with society after the mycah episode (parallel to the howland episode) and he lets her keep + train with needle. I do wonder if the brothers + rickard found out about knight of the laughing tree (given jojen and meera’s surprise that bran hadn’t been told that specific story) and reacted badly, pushing lyanna away. and that’s why ned brings up lyanna to arya when he does, because he sees that if he does not act differently from his father he will lose arya like they lost lyanna.

and when we think about why lyanna ran off with rhaegar, I do think we need to actually reflect upon what exactly he offered to her that the men around her did not. there is something there about rhaegar being different to the overtly masculine robert, but also the overtly masculine brandon. we don’t know anything about rickard, but we do know that ned, even with arya later in life, strongly believes in the rigid gender roles of westeros. when lyanna met rhaegar, I do wonder if it wasn’t just freedom that he represented, but also validation of all her struggles to fit within the conventions of her gender, because he had those exact struggles as well.

[pious-septa]

OKAY ICON I SEE YOU

[ghostinwinterfell]

every time I find myself baffled at how people interpret asoiaf so differently than I do, to the point that we derive completely different meanings from the text, I think of that one jon quote “we look up at the same stars, and see such different things.” yeah okay fine. I guess it’s pretty cool that the same text can come alive for people in so many different ways. FINE. I guess there’s something kind of beautiful about that. beautiful in a really annoying way.

[gaborane]

Rhaegar was NOT 30yo when he met Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhal. He wasn’t even in his mid-twenties. He was quite young himself; around 21–22 years old.

Lyanna was still a child, we agree. She was late 13 or 14. (Given the period Westeros is inspired by, she would absolutely have been considered old enough to marry.)

But I keep seeing some absolutely wild claims about the characters’ ages. And honestly, I don’t know whether these people are deliberately lying, simply misinformed, or just haven’t bothered to check the canon.

281 AC - The Tourney of Harrenhal. Rhaegar is around 21–22 years old, while Lyanna is 13-14.

282 AC - Lyanna disappears with Rhaegar. Brandon and Rickard Stark are killed in King’s Landing. Aerys demands Ned and Robert’s heads, and Jon Arryn refuses to hand them over. Robert’s Rebellion begins.

283 AC - The Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar dies at 23-24. King’s Landing falls, Aerys II is killed, and Robert’s Rebellion ends. Robert becomes king.

283 AC - Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy at around 16 years old.