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But they have to talk about it! They’re EDUCATING US!
Heh! This is brilliant Brooke!
OK let me preface this with I AM IN NO WAY HAPPY that OQers (the VAST majority of them who are lovely, amazing people) are getting hate in their ask boxes. Not happy at all.
However.
I am forced to admit to feeling a tiny bit...I don’t know, evilly gleeful? Yeah that works. Evilly gleeful that the (insert very small number here) of OQers who shit all over CS and CSers are getting a feel of what they’ve heaped on CSers for the last year or two.
Just scrolling through the tags I’m seeing people who shit all over me and my friends complain about the very things they’ve done to us. And using many of the arguments and defences that we used in response to their bullshit.
I mean what’s next? An #OQruinedOUaT Twitter trend?
And yes, I’m aware that I sound petty and childish.
To clarify, I’m not happy that anyone is getting hate in their ask box. Not even those people who may have sent hate to CSers. NOBODY deserves that.
Mostly I just feel horrible that the OQ fandom is getting shit on. A&E has treated their OTP like shit. I’m thrilled beyond belief that Robin is coming back and will, hopefully, get a respectful send-off. At the very least a proper good-bye. But hopefully *crosses fingers* a few more flashbacks to round out his story. Robin and OQ deserved far better. And so did OQ shippers. I’m so happy that we’re getting a chance to see Robin again. I can’t wait!
If you knew me at all you’d know the answers to those questions.
Now get the fuck off my blog.
OK as I just said to my Nonnie, I’ve been thinking. I’ve been cleaning actually and my brain tends to wander when I clean. Usually it wanders in the direction or Idris Elba or Hayley Atwell but today it wandered to fandom.
Here’s the thing.
Hating one character of colour does not make a person racist.
Hating one LGBT+ character does not make a person homophobic.
Hating one female character does not make a person misogynistic.
Loving one character of colour does not preclude racism.
Loving one LGBT+ character does not preclude homophobia.
Loving one female character does not preclude misogyny.
To judge a person based on their character or shipping preferences on ONE television show is ridiculous and completely illogical.
I see people accusing everyone who dislikes Regina and/or doesn’t ship SQ of of racism, misogyny and homophobia and I just??????
What if that person also loves Merlin, Dorothy and Mulan and ships Red Beauty? What if they just don’t like Regina’s personality? I mean, OK yeah, I can’t imagine not loving Regina’s personality but still.
Why can people not just save their accusations of racism and homophobia for the people who actually SAY racist and homophobic things?
So, I'm a straight Black woman that ships Rumbelle right, nbd. But there's a new trend going on in the SQ/ Anti-CS fandom that quite frankly pisses me the fuck off. Ive seen soooo many posts about how CSers are just the most racist, problematic pieces of shit EVERRR, yet NOT ONE about how the rest of the fandom constantly appropriates sj issues to sit on their perpetual thrones of "Not Racist"-dom. Dont get me wrong most CSers are shitheads too, but at least they dont pretend to rep me.
There are racist, homophobic, ableist assholes in every fandom. And not just the OUaT fandom either. All fandoms.
Here’s the thing. At least, here’s my thing. And I know you didn’t actually ask me this but I’ve been thinking today and your ask gave me the opportunity to get it all out.
I don’t give a flying fuck about a person’s sex, race, sexuality, religion or anything else. I certainly don’t give a flying fuck about a person’s shipping preferences.
The only thing I judge people on is how they treat other people.
I get absolutely irate when people use SJ terms within the context of fandom.
Take racism and the word privileged as one example.
You’re a woman of colour. I get it when people of colour use the term “white people” in that tone. You know the tone. Hell, as a white woman I use it myself sometimes. Because white society in general has been steeped in racism for centuries. We’ve earned your derision. Completely.
As a white woman I know that I’m privileged. I know that society is going to treat me differently than you. I may hate that fact as much as you do but I’d never deny it. I cannot change societal views as much as I’d like to. All I can do is acknowledge my privilege and apologize for it. All I can do is make sure that I, as an individual, treat people of colour (and all people for that matter) as I want to be treated. With kindness and respect.
However…I absolutely lose my shit when I see people accusing CSers of being privileged. To take a term like that, with all the societal implications, and apply it to an entire fandom, made up of people from every corner of the world, every sex, every sexuality, every race, every religion strikes me as…trivializing the importance of that term.
Are CSers lucky? Hell yes. We’re very lucky. I’d never deny that. But we are not privileged. Shipping Captain Swan is not going to give us a societal advantage. It won’t give us an advantage when seeking a job or a mortgage. And it sure as fuck won’t stop a cop from shooting us just for walking down the fucking street.
So yeah. I get pissed off beyond measure when I see people in Swen (or other fandoms) accusing CSers of being privileged and using the fact that they belong to a marginalized group as an excuse to treat an entire fandom like shit. A fandom made up of WOC, LBGT+ AND straight, white people.
And that’s just the racism and privileged issue. I could talk for days about the accusations of homophobia as well.
Anyway…thanks for the ask. I hope A&E treat Rumple and Belle better this season!
Have some Rumbelle!
Read the S/Q post and I have this to add. There are many SQ fans that post about rape culture etc because CS is hetero. My first reviews for a fanfic were from a SQ troll who told me to F myself and that I was writing rape. I have been raped and have close friends who are LGBTQ. I took the story down and quit tumblr. I have never written or said a bad word about SQ. I would ask that fandom to honestly look at themselves and the hurt they cause.
I am very sorry for your experience. The rape culture argument has been used very maliciously in this fandom, with not only great insensitivity but also deliberate ignorance. Those who invoke it as a cruel insult undermine the actual struggles of rape victims and trivializes the actual, legitimate issue.
That said….I think that this is not relevant to the intent of the other post. It’s not really a post about what SQers have done. It’s about wanting to feel safe within their own ship fandom.
I have seen homophobic language used by CSers, the kind of language that really does not seem deliberately hateful towards LGBTQ as a whole, but is aggressive. I’m not going to call out anyone specifically. But they are clear microaggressions* that make me uncomfortable enough, and I’m not queer. I can easily imagine queer CSers who see that would not feel safe around their peers.
Just like well-meaning white people are capable of ingrained, unconscious racism, well-meaning straight people are just as capable of unconscious homophobia.
People are allowed to not like SQ. They’re allowed to talk about why they don’t like the ship, most of which reasons I’ve seen have nothing to do with gender. But, for example, the mocking of the interpretation of gay subtext is a microaggression. The stating that Emma and Regina have both only been shown to be in relationships with men as signs that they’re straight is a microaggression (bi-erasure). I could go on.
I’ve gotten a lot of people mad at me for saying stuff like this before, but it’s true. There is plenty of bad behavior from all parts of the fandom. But I’ve seen plenty over here, from CSers, too.
We have to be careful of vilifying large groups of people to justify the things we say. Yes, we have been wronged. But yes, we are also doing the wronging. And our fellow shippers are saying that they are uncomfortable by this behavior. I have had several anons who say stuff like this to me, and when I post it, it’s almost always followed by a message from someone else saying I’m being baited or trolled by SQers. That kind of erasure is the exact kind of behavior that is a problem.
Again, I am so sorry you were the victim of a malicious troll. Please don’t misunderstand my empathy for what you went through. And I could talk forever about the actual instances of rape culture within this fandom, the destructive rad-fem* behavior in lieu of positive intersectional feminism, but again, that’s not really the point of the OP, so I’m going to stick to my defense of it.
*microaggression: microaggression theory is a social theory that describes social exchanges in which a member of a dominant culture says or does something, often accidentally, and without intended malice, that belittles and alienates a member of a marginalized group.
*rad-fem: subset of feminism who believe the patriarchy is beyond a fixable system and to uproot it. Unfortunately, the side-effect is that a lot of rad-fems believe there is only one proper way to be a woman (i.e. behavior like saying Emma is weak for wearing dresses on dates and being with a man), and it creates a lot of equally damaging gender roles. (you can read more about the types of feminism here)
I just wanted to add a few thoughts of my own to @onceuponamirror‘s excellent post about anti-LGBTQ microaggressions that happen in CS. This was all in response to a post make by a young lesbian CSer asking the CS community to be careful in we way they talk about SQ.
I have definitely seen some antiSQ posts that I feel are homophobic and that make me uncomfortable. A lot of times these are posts that mock SQers for the fact that they read the SQ relationship as queer, or their interpretations of certain scenes. The use of the terms crazy and delusional is another example.
Look –I have major problems with some of the anti-CS/anti-hook/anti-ouat discourse in parts of the SQ fandom, including the twisting of the meaning of rape culture, and a whole host of other issues that I’ve written about in the past.
But that’s not the issue here. The issue is that LGBTQ+ CSers are telling us that some of the antiSQ language in this fandom makes them uncomfortable as LGBTQ+ people. And we owe it to them as fellow humans and fellow CS shippers to listen.
This is not the same as the Antis from the SQ fandom who use social justice language as part of their larger ship war against CS.
I think that one of the issues here is that the Antis have taken “ownership” of discussing issues of social justice in the OUAT fandom, and they have poisoned the well in many ways. They have made it very difficult to have constructive conversations about these sorts of issues, because anytime they come up, people automatically think of some of the RIDICULOUS SJ arguments made by the Antis.
Honestly, it’s infuriating. First of all, because this has a REAL impact on members of our CS community that are LGBTQ+ and/or POC. It also means that we are all missing out on some very important and interesting conversations about representation.
I am really tired of the Antis setting the tone in these discussions, and the exchanged I just reblogged demonstrates that often when SJ issues are brought up, people’s minds automatically jump to the Anti arguments.
*sigh*
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I love CS, obviously, but this is so true.
I'd love to be able to read stuff about other characters and ships without seeing stuff about CS.
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Can you please add an anti Hook tag to this post? Thank you.
There is endless discussion in OUAT fandoms about who is the more “entitled” fandom. I see it all the time from all sides.
Once Upon a Time is a work of media-art that is written and produced by some individuals who have made themselves available on twitter. Just as any publicly viewable work with acclaim has been open to critique and judgement, this show is also open for critique and judgement. In the era of conventions and social media accessibility, it has made this type of communication a non-stop, 24/7 enterprise. It is entirely new for every single citizen to be able to approach artists with their feelings, desires and needs from the art they are consuming - tv media. Literally thousands of tweets are sent to show-runners daily. That’s a hell of a lot of critique to read, in addition to - you know - having a life and work to be getting on with.
Yes, it is entirely within one’s right to offer criticism and thoughts about media, but Adam Horowitz or the writers are not required to do anything beyond read tweets/blog posts/articles…if they see them and if they have the time. They certainly don’t have to respond to rude or nasty comments. However if they choose to respond, they deserve respectful discourse, as all humans do. Just remember that for as many people as you can find who share your opinion, ten+ times that amount of other opinions can be found in your fandom. When you start using language in your tweets/posts at showrunners that indicate you are an authority and therefore superior to others in your opinion; when you get irate that your changes aren’t being made for you because you have repeatedly pointed out how morally or intellectually superior your thoughts are; and when you start to insult and name-call the showrunners, actors, and fans because your opinions are the only valid opinions….then you…YOU are the one who is acting ENTITLED.
You are not superior. You are not more right. I don’t care what cause you think you are pushing through your interpretation of a show, I guarantee you there are others who are pushing for the same cause(s) and don’t interpret the show that way or want the same things you do. Therefore, you don’t deserve more privileges from the producers and writers than anyone else.
Fans who enjoy characters or couples that happen to have had what fans of other ships or characters deem “a good storyline” aren’t entitled. CS fans are not entitled because the couple we like is still going strong on the show. People who are satisfied or are even happy with the show the way that it is written aren’t more entitled. They’re just lucky. They saw something they liked and they kept liking it…and they still like it. Orrrrr. Maybe they don’t…maybe they like CS but they aren’t happy with how it’s been written. I mean, hell, some fans of CS dislike enough of the storyline that they stopped watching, despite liking CS. Some CS fans were also OQ fans and have quit the show. So, those who say all CS fans are entitled clearly don’t know what the word means. Out of all of my hundreds of CS mutuals, not one yells angrily at Adam when she doesn’t get what she wants. Ohhhhh, I’ve seen some CSers do this, but no more than those from other ships.
Frankly it’s just upsetting seeing people I know who are CS fans and who are facing daily challenges because of their race, gender, sexuality, or health, get called “entitled” because…they enjoy a love story that is currently on a solid course on the show. They certainly don’t deserve the foot-stomping ire of fans who didn’t get what they want from OUAT, whose core issue is “I wanted xyz and didn’t get it, but these people over here wanted CS and got it.” Maybe we did…But, we didn’t write it! We just watched it as it happened. The show didn’t give it to us because we demanded it. The show wrote it because they wanted to and it unfolded as we watched their creation. Screaming at the showrunners that you didn’t get what you wanted….
That is entitled.
And don’t say it’s because we are always asking for CS sex or CS living together or CS marriage that you call us entitled. The per capita amount of things we ask for is the same as any other shipper/stan on OUAT. Are we supposed to stop being excited because somewhere someone hates the show? Top tip: When you expect fans of a couple you don’t ship to enjoy something less because you hate it and wanted something else - when you expect them to stop asking for more of what is being shown, because you didn’t get what you wanted - when you expect fans of other things to constantly offer counsel, support and a shoulder to cry on over things that they never connected with, and if they don’t, you’re going to treat them like shit and turn the whole damn fandom against them…
THAT is entitled.
Now, as far as the actors and actresses cast in OUAT - with respect to them, there is a whole different kind of entitled behavior. The people who are acting in these shows are hired professionals chosen to act out art they didn’t write or produce. They have the right to give as much of themselves as they choose to give to fans, for their own mental and physical health and welfare. Everyone wants a piece of these actors and actresses, including real media outlets (not the fan-created blog articles) and paparazzi. With the ability to access actresses/actors on twitter, or at cons, there is this sort of false impression that everyone should get what they want from them. Lana Parrilla is this amazing woman who seems to have an endless well of energy to give love and support to fans of hers. She is a gift. And that is great…but…for many actresses and actors - whether they or their character belong to a group that is less represented on tv, which might draw a fan emotionally to that character/actor or actress - they don’t owe any fan anything more than to be a decent human being if they pass you on the street. Like anyone else in any other job.
The actors and actresses on OUAT give what they can, where they can. They all seem like lovely people. But none of them owes us anything. Fans that expect and demand actors and actresses say exactly what they want, give them exactly the type of interaction they crave, champion each and every one of their causes…
THAT IS ENTITLED.
I’m entirely sick of people not recognizing when their investment in a ship or character on a show has warped their sense of human decency to the point that they feel if they don’t get what they think they deserve from a tv show they are entitled to lash out at whomever they chose.
I’ve had ships sink, and characters get shitty stories in book series, and other shows. I never once - NOT ONCE - berated the writers, actors or creators directly, or characterized those who got what they wanted as anything other than LUCKY.
tl;dr Critique and offer your judgements on storylines to Adam and the writers on twitter, respectfully. Gleefully tweet all the things you’d like to see. Enjoy what the actors and actresses give to you, however little or much it is. You are owed nothing. If you think you are and you lash out at producers, writers, actors, other fans, then you are acting entitled.
I’m seeing that some people have issue with this part of the script that Adam posted yesterday. I want to talk about it.
Hook takes in Robin Hood’s grave in the far distance. A somber moment. But he puts his arm around her. And she leans in. For the moment, safe. Off our reunited couple, proving that life goes on.
I’m having trouble seeing how this is disrespectful to the fandom. It’s not about the fandom. Not even a little bit. It’s about a note from the writers that is meant to be interpreted by the director, by the actors, by the composer, by the production staff, by the editors, etc …
Jen and Colin are meant to read this and let this be a guide as to how the scene is supposed to go down … that they go from being ecstatic to somber but to hold on to each other in a way that shows they are grateful.
The director and production team need to set up and frame the scene so they can get all the details and emotion out of it that the creators are looking for.
The composer needs this note to provide the proper scoring to punctuate the emotion of the scene.
It is in no way, shape, or form a note to the fandom to feel a certain way or not. It is a note for the characters in that moment. Should the note have been:
“Off on Emma who falls to her knees, sobbing with the realization that she shouldn’t be allowed happiness when others are suffering” ?
I don’t think that’s the message that the show wants to convey. In fact, they have been pushing quite the opposite … that we have to look for the moments.
If they just want to complain to Adam about Robin than thats fine with me. But most of the complainers cant discuss their disappointment without taking a dig at CS in every tweet they tag to him so I really dont give a crap when I see that happening. Sorry not sorry. It IS bratty behavior and while I know that there are some who are not that way, a lot of the ones Ive seen are and then its become yet another anti-CS thread instead of the intended Robin support thread.
The digs at CS I fully disagree with, especially since so many CSers loved Robin and mourned his death. It actually feels like a slap in the face. Like you, I say if you have legitimate concerns about the context of that scene and the way Robin’s death was handled, I’m fine with that. However that can be done without making digs at CS and CSers.
I’m also giving side-eye to certain people who I know made multiple negative comments about Robin (and OQ) when he was alive, suddenly pretending they’re sympathetic to OQ. It’s simply providing them a convenient excuse to form yet another “WE HATE CS PARADE” and turn the fandom against us. They’re the same people who called Robin ForestShit and Forest Hobo. Does anyone truly believe they’ve magically changed their tune and seen the light? Please. They’re using Robin’s death as yet another weapon in their arsenal for this never-ending shipwar. They don’t care about Robin. They never did.
I knew this was going to happen (the backlash) and it’s ridiculous. Especially considering I know that 95% of the CSers I know loved Robin! And were devastated when he died! I’m STILL pissed off about it!
Oh don’t even start with me about the “Forest Hobo” hypocrisy…
That's what pisses me off. The people who shipped OQ have a legitimate reason to be angry. I'M still angry!
But it's not my fault A&E fucked up OQ. To blame CSers for it is ridiculous and illogical.
And all the people jumping on the oh poor Robin bandwagon after spending the last couple of years slamming Robin and OQ and calling Robin nasty names and calling him Regina's beard can fuck right off.
They're so fucking transparent.
If they just want to complain to Adam about Robin than thats fine with me. But most of the complainers cant discuss their disappointment without taking a dig at CS in every tweet they tag to him so I really dont give a crap when I see that happening. Sorry not sorry. It IS bratty behavior and while I know that there are some who are not that way, a lot of the ones Ive seen are and then its become yet another anti-CS thread instead of the intended Robin support thread.
The digs at CS I fully disagree with, especially since so many CSers loved Robin and mourned his death. It actually feels like a slap in the face. Like you, I say if you have legitimate concerns about the context of that scene and the way Robin’s death was handled, I’m fine with that. However that can be done without making digs at CS and CSers.
I’m also giving side-eye to certain people who I know made multiple negative comments about Robin (and OQ) when he was alive, suddenly pretending they’re sympathetic to OQ. It’s simply providing them a convenient excuse to form yet another “WE HATE CS PARADE” and turn the fandom against us. They’re the same people who called Robin ForestShit and Forest Hobo. Does anyone truly believe they’ve magically changed their tune and seen the light? Please. They’re using Robin’s death as yet another weapon in their arsenal for this never-ending shipwar. They don’t care about Robin. They never did.
thejollyduckling replied to your post “I am so sick and tired of the CS = 50 Shades and Twilight comments.”
Variety of interpretation is valid. But remembering that your interpretation is just that? Yours? And doesn't ACTUALLY mean that there IS something wrong with Killian? Or that he is similar to 50shades *snort* okay. Whatever. Haters gonna hate
I’ve never read 50 Shades, reading about it was enough for me.
I did read the Twilight series. Since I was mocking the shit out of it I figured I’d better read it so I’d know what I was talking about. Plus my niece was hate reading it and she wanted me to join her.
Captain Swan is nothing like Bella and Edward. It’s ridiculous.
I am so sick and tired of the CS = 50 Shades and Twilight comments.
I don't know what you are talking about, but i totally wish they never did any press about any of the ships. I am all for that.
My post was in reference to the CS script that was released by Adam yesterday that showed their 5x21 reunion. Certain members of the fandom flipped their lid akin to what happens every time the official Once ABC account posts anything related to CS or when it was made public that Jen and Colin had a photo op at last year’s Fairy Tales con, but Lana and Jen didn’t. The vitriol was so intense that Adam removed the script pages and deleted any tweets related to it. Thankfully, later he re-posted them, but the tweets are still gone.
As for press about ships….I enjoy the press about ships, even when they’re not my ship. I’m happy when other shippers get something good. I love all the bonus-ey stuff we get. But I do realize, it’s a bonus and we’re lucky to get it at all.
I do think though, and have for awhile, that Adam should leave twitter. His presence does nothing but exacerbate drama and fandom tension. And really, for his own sanity and mental health, it would be better for him to exit.
Certain members of the fandom flip their lids over any mention of Captain Swan.
I do think though, and have for awhile, that Adam should leave twitter. His presence does nothing but exacerbate drama and fandom tension.
THAT!
He really needs to stop engaging. He doesn’t need to leave Twitter, he just needs to stop engaging with the over the top fans, be they positive or negative.
When anti CS watched the show through tighter CS goggles than any of the fans that ship them …
Seriously? 5x21 was not all about CS getting their happy ending … it was about testing various characters.
Adam has since deleted the pages and all these tweets discussing it.
THIS IS WHY WE CAN’T HAVE NICE THINGS!!!!
LOL