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A letter to the cast and crew of Loki

* updated Nov 2022 feel free to leave your honest opinions*

There has been a lot of discussion about the Loki series, so this is an attempt to converge all issue, hoping it’ll be seen, as well as explain WHY people are upset. Many of us felt harmed by the series portrayals, and have decided to group together and write. So I’ve written an open letter to the Loki series team. This message will be about the poor representation, trauma erasure, out of character writing, and plot holes. Please reserve opinion for the end, rather than wave us off prematurely. You don’t have to agree with all of this, but it something to think about…

(This is not about ships and is Written by a non shipper; who is a long term comic fan. Assistance on trauma and media repercussions, from Psych, English, Film, Gender Studies, and Theatre professionals. Tysm for your contributions) Est 10-15min read time.

First let me start out by saying this is not a call out post or an attack on anyone. No one is getting cancelled. Just a crit of the series and it’s handling… it’s okay to like the show but please do so with the knowledge that there were issues and push for those to be mended in the future. Feel free to jump to different sections.

Poor representation:

Gender is a social construct, we are not limited to a preset role at birth.

Both the actors and the director support bisexual and LGBT people. This is really fantastic, and I’m glad supportive people are portraying Loki. Loki (and Sylvie) are bisexual and genderfluid. However, Loki is never called genderfluid in the show. This was promised to be represented in the series, as Loki has been genderfluid quite a while now in the comics. Yet all we see is a piece of paper that says “sex: fluid” implying he is a shapeshifter, but his gender identity is still cis male. This has caused a great number of people to deny Loki’s gender on social media. Even throwing around transphobic words and slurs, saying “Loki would never be trans.0 Implying that’s a bad thing to be. Some of us have felt invalidated and worrisome that people will look at as poorly. A better way would be to put “gender:fluid, sex:male” as he was male identifying and presenting at the time the paper was made, and while he was apprehended. This would make more sense because at birth he was born male and it would follow the same train of thought of writing born a frost giant under species; as it says frost giant despite not presenting as such. Therefore despite Loki not always presenting male, it would still follow his birth attributes. Alternatively “gender:fluid, sex:fluid” if you would like to encompass he is able to present as female as well.

What is genderfludity?

WebMd describes genderfludity as “Someone who is fluid -- also called gender fluid -- is a person whose gender identity (the gender they identify with most) is not fixed. It can change over time or from day-to-day. Fluid is a form of gender identity or gender expression, rather than a sexual orientation” This can be feeling male on some days and female others, varying between two binaries. Also I got some it can present as a spectrum, such as male, female, agender. Personally I feel female some days and agender others. Humans are complex. Gender and sex are not a linked correlation. Though physically transitioning between the two sexes exists in nature such clown fish, lions ect. Gender identity is only a concept to beings who are self aware.

Origin of Loki’s gender: In an old comic Loki possesses the body of Lady Sif, however since then things have been retconned and altered. Loki’s genderfluidity shouldn’t be up for discussion. His character is based on a Norse god, who in lore is genderfluid. Loki in the comics has even spoken on his gender identity. Loki is depicted in many comics as “female” (Even explicitly calling himself genderfluid in a panel of a Squirrel Girl comic.)

in God Who Fell to Earth, Loki talks about what he likes to wear when feeling femme and that he uses all pronouns. Also Agent of Asgard explicitly saying he is still himself in both forms. This shows that Loki, though seen shifting from “male to female” identifies as genderfluid and isn’t doing it for an advantage such as spying or blending in. In the book Where Mischief Lies, Loki says he is equally comfortable as both a man and a woman.

Rep in the series: The team praised themself with their depiction of Loki’s genderfluidity. Despite never showing or mentioning it. head writer Michael Waldron said,

"I know how many people identify with Loki in particular and are eager for that representation, especially with this character. We worked really hard." (Source https://href.li/?https://www.cbr.com/loki-director-explains-show-mcu-gender-fluidity/?_gl=1*p2n8xk*_ga*YW1wLVNqekFiQ3lzZWxUcnY2OEJHRDZPbmNzSWk5ZzBYOFBILUxwaHdUbzZwV2psaE5LMDh4NDU4QjlJMmxVSTIwWUc) in another interview Waldron also stated

“That’s an important part of who this character is, and certainly who he represents to such a large part of the fanbase and everything, so never a debate on that at all. Meaning they were aware of Loki’s gender, and it’s importance to the community.”

This is all well and good except Loki’s genderfluidity is never mentioned. Not only that but there are comments that deny his gender all together. Such as when Loki meets the other Loki variants saying

“have you ever seen a women variant?”

Invalidating Loki. Implying he could never be a “real” woman because he wasn’t born as one. Michael went on in another interview here about how

“I knew that I wanted to position somebody opposite Tom, opposite Tom's Loki, who had the same energy in a way, but also a totally different energy, that female energy…”

Director Kate Herron continues

"…Maybe they’re not gender fluid, those particular Lokis. I would say it’s open to interpretation, that would be my thinking. It’s one of those things I guess where things can contradict slightly, but that would be my logic." (source: https://href.li/?https://thedirect.com/article/loki-sylvie-gender-surprise-variants-exclusive) on Lamentis Loki says “what makes a Loki a Loki?” …Is gender identity not part of what makes you, you? All Loki’s should be genderfluid. Not just one. It may be just a TV show, but media depictions have always had an effect on reality. Especially when using stereotypes against underrepresented groups. It would’ve been less harmful to not mention it at all rather than being up the conversation and spread misinformation and stereotypes.

Selfcest: argument and counter argument.

Now the issues of Sylvie and Loki’s relationship are more complicated. For this we have to dig into some controversy. Selfcest is defined as being self + incest. selfcest (similar but not quite the same as AGP) is a trope that has long been used to mock bisexual and trans people. It is derived from Autogynophilia which is being aroused by the thought of ones self as the opposite gender. Usually Male envisioning as Female. Autogynophilia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#Autogynephilia) it was even listed as even a symptom within the DSM-5 to categorize being trans as a mental illness. In reality there are very few trans people with this fetish, and cis people exist with this fetish as well(which is okay.) It was used to exploit gender envy and dysphoria (enviously imagining yourself as the another gender, wishing you could look that way to mirror how you feel) and demonize trans people (primarily trans women) we as genderlfuid people do not want to be represented by a fetish, especially because gender is not sexual and this was a first introduction to genderfluidity for many.

The counter argument is that autogynophelia was medically used against transwomen. This is true and not to be overlooked, however this statement fails to recognize that many genderfluid people (mainly those who identify with gender binary) do in fact transition. Some genderfluid people spend years at a time as trans men or women. We are not inherently androgynous or switching day to day. Genderfluidity is not exclusively feeling several genders at once, it often fluctuates. It’s a different experience for many of us. Gender is not sex, gender is a spectrum.

The argument that genderfluid people are not effected by autogynophelia fails to recognize genderfluid people as trans people. We also have to look at social impact, what is being said to genderfluid people. Are they being taken seriously? Many of us when coming out are written off as delusional or get comments about fantasizing being with ourself as the opposite sex. So no, selfcest is not being used against genderfluid people in the same way it was to oppress trans women, but it is still being used none the less. Transwoman and activist Julia Serrano speaks on her take that its not taboo as we are assigning a male essence to Loki (https://juliaserano.medium.com/heres-why-some-people-find-the-loki-sylvie-romance-unsettling-3533ce219cdf) however I think this is lack of understanding of the character. You can’t expect everyone to read All the comics, movies, shows ect. Loki identifies as male just as much as he does female. This is evident in the way he says son of Laufey and Odin calls Loki his “ child who is both” (referring to son and daughter) Loki is not a neutral godly entity (perhaps the Norse god is but I’m speaking strictly Marvel) he was born male and often identifies with his birth gender. This does not make him any less of a woman when identifying as such. Julia also mentions we assume Sylvie was born male as well however this is not the case. Sylvie was born female and it is argued whether Sylvie is genderfluid or not (primarily due to the writers neglecting proper representation and going back on their statements.)

It’s unlikely the writers did this intentionally, but rather lacked proper research. The “representation” they have being more harmful than good. Loki is the first trans MCU character and yet is given problematic stereotypes. Sylvie’s hair color and name are even changed so you don’t associate her as “Loki” making it a bit less creepy….I guess. While this would be good allegory for someone who’s male to female trans (new name new hair ect) Loki and Sylvie are not. They are genderfluid. It goes as far as them never discussing their shared brother, Thor. However they discuss their adoptive parents and share the same last name. Laufeyson (meaning son of laufey) and Laufeydottir(meaning daughter of laufey) meaning if either were to present as opposite gender (as Loki so frequently does in the comics) they would share the same last name, as they share the same birth father. Kang and Mobius also comment on how the relationship is unnatural. They really put the first trans mcu character in an “unnatural” relationship…

In the end, putting Loki in a relationship that many viewers felt was uncomfortable, was not good representation for the first trans character in the mcu. I don’t believe it makes you transphobic for feeling this way, as many trans(both genderfluid and not) fans themselves have spoken on this saying they felt uncomfortable as well.

Image from The Art Of Loki book. Reiterating again that Sylvie is the only female Loki

Sylvie: Sylvie’s issue lies more within the writers room. This is in no way the actors fault. Though a popular character, Some see problems in the existence of Sylvie herself. This is up for interpretation, but many believe it is a product of subconscience bias by the writers, and not purposeful malice. As the only “women variant” Sylvie’s name is taken from comic character Sylvie Lushton, but inspired by Amora and “Lady Loki” this takes away the opportunity to introduce these strong women characters later on due to their amalgamation. “Lady Loki” who is just Loki when she is femme presenting, is now unlikely to be depicted as just Loki. Sylvie being female should not be exclusive to her. Genderfluidity does not mean some Loki’s are born of different sex. By Sylvie existing as the only woman, this means there is no need to show Loki in their femme form. Loki was depicted as an alligator, before as presenting or being identified as genderfluid. Sylvie’s existence would not be a problem if they had chosen to establish Lokis genderfluidity. Allowing Loki to present as femme, or even mention identifying as both male and female. Bare minimum would be to not make Sylvie the “only women variant” or to have a female character just for the purpose of a relationship. As mentioned here by gamerrant https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/gamerant.com/mcu-never-good-romance/amp/ a relationship isn’t always necessary. It often feels like in the MCU, there can never been a platonic friendship between “male” and “female” presenting people. This further pushes that they are “opposite” genders rather than fluid beings. Actor Sophia Di Martino also comments that despite bisexuality being important, genderfluidity isn’t a part of the series and implies it may not be a part Sylvie’s at all character. (https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/lokis-sophia-di-martino-says-sylvie-isnt-just-lady-loki/amp) Executive producer Stephen Broussard later comments “She’s kind of like a female version of Loki as we know it. “ which completely ignores Loki as genderfluid. Source here

(Yes the MCU is different from the comics, but they are still the source content)

•Trauma rep: Although voices of trauma are rarely heard (because who wants to announce their struggles to the world) several survivors of incest have stated their unease on twitter (no link as to keep anonymity) incest isn’t always the “f*ck you’re cousin” meme associated with the state of Alabama (which is ironically where Sylvie and Loki first met) incest is often unconsenusual. Loki and Sylvie’s “sibling esq” nature being uncomfortable for some viewers. The sibling relationship would’ve been an excellent opportunity to explore why Loki has issue with Thor. Though we cannot censor content, putting a incest relationship in a positive light leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Especially after fan tweets saying #normalizeselfcest. The writers comment that the relationship was to depict self love (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love however this is not a healthy way to show it. Healing is not found in a relationship, it’s found inside yourself. Not in the kissing yourself sort of way. Writer Eric Martin even liked fan tweets saying that incest is ”hot” so this is obviously not taken seriously by the crew.

Additionally, The representation of abuse trauma was awful. It wasn’t even discussed as Loki being changed by what he’s endured. Only that he is a jerk. Not an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Erasing any trauma he has, and watering it down to that he’s just a bad person. The learning to love and being fixed by it stereotype, is harmful and it enforces the idea that only a relationship, will make you find value in yourself. In reality it can actually be more harmful to yourself and your partner, it’s best to get therapy before even being ready to enter a relationship or be romantically involved. (More on this later)

Bi rep: Bisexual people are just as valid dating the opposite sex as they are the same. So in that category there is little qualm. However, the single line of implied bisexuality did little to nothing. writer/ actor Russell Davies even bashed Loki’s bisexual representation https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/russell-davies-loki-bisexual-reveal-pathetic-feeble-gesture-2021-8%3famp The director, Kate Herron, a bisexual woman, tweeted “From the moment I joined @LokiOfficial it was very important to me, and my goal, to acknowledge Loki was bisexual. It is a part of who he is and who I am too. I know this is a small step but I’m happy, and heart is so full, to say that this is now Canon in” (tweet https://href.li/?https://twitter.com/iamkateherron/status/1407633677484539906?s=21 many worry that despite the minimal rep, that Kate was the only one who pushed for the single bisexual line. (The scene lit with the colors of the bi flag did not go missed) and that without her being on next season there will be simply nothing at all. Good article on the poor bi rep here https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/loki-bisexual-tom-hiddleston-marvel-b1872115.html%3famp overall the poor handling has had repercussions even in the comics. in a recent issue that was meant for the mcu fan target group there was what could be considered a negative portrayal of Lokis bisexuality and bisexuality in general https://lowkeycritical.tumblr.com/post/692435197237641216

People of color: while I’m not the best to speak on this, it’s been brought up to me to add to the list. Many of us of noticed all the characters who were black, were either killed off or framed as bad guys. Boastful Loki was a traitor, Kang is evil, Ravonna is written as an antagonist, B-15 falls into the trope of dark skin woman being “manhandling” and “rough”

Now that the concept art has been released we also see Sylvie was at one point supposed to be a person of color. Why was this scrapped in favor of a white actress?

What if I like it?

It it’s okay to enjoy content if you acknowledge the problems and fight for their change. A large argument for the canon ship is that not all genderfluid people feel hurt and that it’s not real. However there is an undeniable large amount that do feel hurt. To have empathy is to uplift the people who are harmed. Not all women feel insulted when called a sexist insults, or when mysogynistic tropes in movies are displayed, however they cannot be denied as harmful to many. Fiction does influence reality, especially in such as underrepresented group. For many this was the first introduction of the concept of genderfludity, and it was reduced to presenting as a cis shapeshifter who practices a harmful stereotype of selfcest. It feels like being ridiculed.

Who worked on it? There is no confirmation if any genderfluid people were consulted. However I think if enough research is done one can still have a positive portrayal. Al Ewing, the writer for Agent of Asgard, (the now cancelled 2019 comic) is a cis bisexual man but did amazing work representing Loki as genderfluid. The God Who Fell to Earth (also cancelled after only 5 issues) by Daniel Kibblesmith did a decent job casually ingraining it into Loki’s character. Though I cannot know his intentions, Michael seemed to view it as if all criticisms were ship war related. Saying season 2 will not fall into fan service and will “subvert” fan expectations. Although I cannot say Michael has ever strayed from writing problematic content as the man has tweeted about a minor being “hot” (https://twitter.com/michaelwaldron/status/27919832120827905?s=21)

Trauma erasure:

Loki’s trauma was not once mentioned. Ignoring the troubles he’s gone through that shaped and changed him. This was an opportunity to address his life of being beaten down, and seen as a failure. Yet it was instead portrayed as Loki is just a bad person and that’s why he loses. It’s pushed that he is “narcissistic” the head writer and show runner even saying Loki is “an ass” as opposed to troubled And scarred.

a really great article discussing the effect of Loki’s hidden identity https://href.li/?https://medium.com/ap-marvel/the-tragedy-of-loki-of-asgard-is-the-unaddressed-trauma-of-adoption-2ad132a848e2

Loki is often described as a narcissist however it is a common mistake. Loki uses a confident mask to cover his internalized self hatred. Loki is a great character to break down and examine what makes him bad. For this we are gonna talk about strictly the MCU and start back at Thor 1. In a scene of Loki and Thor as kids we see Odin telling a tale of how he slaughtered the frost giants, and took their source of power away. Loki is raised to believe Jotunn are evil, barbaric monsters. When he finds out he’s an adopted frost giant, his world comes crashing down. Odin admits he only took Loki because he thought as the heir to Laufey, he could one day Unite the kingdoms. It was a political ploy, adopting the son of his enemy out of advantage and not empathy. Loki is neglected his entire life, being told he isn’t good enough. In https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/P23aKF-694k it is shown how much he actually supported his brother despite being somewhat rivals and jealous of his brother being the favorite. When Loki tries to stand up for Thor after Odin banishes him, Odin silences Loki without any consideration. When Loki finds out he’s a frost giant, he tries to prove his loyalty by killing his birth father in front of the sleeping yet aware Odin. Showing he’d protect his adopted father rather, than his blood father. Trying to emphasize his loyalty to asgard and not jotunnheim.

Loki may be the god of tricks, but not always the god of evil. In the What If: the Party Thor episode, we see if Loki was raised comfortable with his identity, and raised with love, he is carefree and mischievous but not evil. At the end of Thor 1 Loki tells Odin everything he’s done was to prove he’s worthy of the same love as Thor, and is devoted to him. When Odin denies this of Loki, he lets go and disappears into the blackhole thinking it would kill him. In the avengers, Thor said he thought Loki was dead, meaning that was his ultimate intention. Loki’s entire world was ripped from him and when he tries to prove he’s a dedicated and loyal son his father denies him. Watching him there as Loki let’s go in effort to kill himself. Tom discusses what happens to Loki (synopsis https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-thor-movie-death-after-where-what-happened/amp/

Canon summary here from the official marvel guidebook of what happens to Loki during his time with Thanos https://lowkeycritical.tumblr.com/post/687970599008681984/couple-pages-from-the-marvel-guide-books-so

(Though Thor 1 was unpopular, the writing for Loki was in depth and excellent. Here is his original writer showing he really did love the character and that he wasn’t a narcissist)

A broken Loki, who has been floating with his on mind, is found by Thanos and tortured. Many scenes with Loki are cut as they make the viewer empathize too much with him (avengers deleted scenes https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/9m3NpkeTOmk Loki is being controlled by Thanos and the mindstone. When he’s first teleported to earth in front of Nick Fury he looks extremely sickly and deranged. Though this was never outright confirmed he was controlled there’s plenty of evidence to back it up. (Short list https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fentertainment%2Fmovies%2Fa25693581%2Fthanos-loki-scepter-fan-theory%2F&t=YWEyYjZkNDc5NzM0ZjllNjYxMTc3YTIyNjk5ZDQ5NGJkOWU4MGUyMCwwYzhkNzgxN2FiOTQxODdlNzE1NzcxNTExMDg3Y2NhZTcyOWE3YTlk&ts=1634033270

“In relation to Loki was just, it was just bad parenting. Lots of the reasons why he is who he is it’s ‘cause he’s being unloved and undervalued. He doesn’t belong anywhere. He’s been betrayed he’s been lied to.” - Tom Hiddleston, Loki’s actor.

If cast and crew do really believe this, that this is why Loki acts the way he does, why was he easily changed in such a drastic manner?

The Loki we seen in the TVA though a variant, is still the 2012 Loki pulled from the sacred timeline. This would be the most unloved, unhinged, bitter and afraid version of Loki. Yet He isn’t scarred, or wary. He’s not particularly angry or sly. Remember this Loki just ripped an eye out, killed 80 in two days and got whipped around by the Hulk. Then brought into a strange new world where he can’t use magic for the first time. He’s stripped naked despite his lack of compliance and yet is “cooperative” with the authority figure in threat of death. Loki has never had an authority figure in his life that hasn’t mistreated him.

We don’t get an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Not once do we explore his frost giant heritage, how he grew up unloved, how he attempted to end his life only to be kidnapped by Thanos.

Loki most likely was predisposed to a bit of bad but lead writer and show runner Michael Waldron comments “Loki is an ass, and that makes my life as a writer, easy.” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/movieweb.com/amp/loki-mcu-cameos/

Loki often displays angry outbursts, hard time maintaining close relationships, as well as immense guilt. These are very common results in a person who has been abused (source: https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mayoclinic.org%2Fdiseases-conditions%2Fpost-traumatic-stress-disorder%2Fsymptoms-causes%2Fsyc-20355967&t=NDQ0MGFkMGIyNjJmYmUyZWQzOTRlMjMzOTM4MzdhMmI2ZDg5ZjkwNixiNjUwYTAzMjUwYzU1OTk0MmVhN2IwMDhiODRhY2M3ZjMwZGZkNzA2&ts=1634034471and https://href.li/?https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/coping-with-emotional-and-psychological-trauma.htm his suffering does not excuse his actions but does give more explanation that him being “an ass” Loki is put in a time loop where he is repeatedly kicked until on his knees submissive under the guise of “comedy” being beaten into compliance. After all this time being kicked down now is when he changes, breaking his will? Sylvie also often tries to hit Loki, and degrades him saying she’s the ” superior Loki” rubbing in that he was growing up second his whole life. yet his relationship with her is “self acceptance” (source: https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love Tom Hiddleston, Loki’s actor comments “I don't think Loki's relationship with himself has been very healthy. Trying to accept those aspects of himself, which he's been on the run from, was a way of thinking about that in a really interesting way “

the director Kate Heron also comments “The whole show is about identity. It's about him, and he is on a very different path, and he is on a different journey. He sees things in Sylvie that he is like, ‘Oh, I've been there. I know what you feel.’”

She claims it’s on identity, however we don’t see anything addressing his behavior. (Same https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love I find it unlikely that would take his most hated traits in himself, and love them in another. Loki hates himself, he isn’t a true narcissist and yet he’s healed in “self love” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-sylvie-love-not-narcissism-self-loathing-duality/amp/

Many people who have endured abuse such as myself, see their self in Loki. In the way he tries to mask his pain and seem collected often arrogant to cover how broken and alone he feels. Being constantly beaten down and having to take it and push through. Be strong because it’s the only thing you know how to do. While in Thor 1 there is scene of Loki aiding the escape of the warriors 3 and lady Sif while Thor is fighting out of anger and ego. Loki tries to talk Thor out of fighting more than once and alerts Odin to Thors actions of bloodshed and treaty breaking. He is diplomatic and protective. Loki post avengers is much more full of cowardice and disappears when he is expecting something bad to happen, and I believe this is an escape mechanism post Thanos. Not wanting to endure the pain of reality. A short evaluation of Loki’s abuse ( https://href.li/?https://www.grunge.com/280328/tragic-details-about-marvels-loki/ ) shows the many aspects of him that were ignored and written away in the Loki series. Simply becoming “healed” and peppy after the intervention of Mobius where he is beaten down again and again. This wouldn’t cause sudden healing and would honestly make things much worse. Loki isn’t shown breaking or at rock bottom, similar how we saw him in TDW. His behavior “fixed” in a dehumanizing way like a dog in a shock collar. Loki is not ready for a relationship or quite ready for self love. This was not a display of character development but that ignoring Loki’s history and why he is the way he is. Most of what Loki does are learned behaviors. We often see Loki being humiliated for the sake of other characters or viewers enjoyment. Loki is driven by his trauma, it shapes the very being of who you are. This does not mean he is justified in his actions but it gives explanation.

Finding yourself in love wasn’t a good portrayal. This is a negative depiction of self healing, as falling in love isn’t going to heal you. This is a stereotype often portrayed in media. For a long time I thought I could be saved if I fell in love, if someone loved me for me. However that was not the case at all. It took years of therapy and looking into myself. Addressing the trauma that shaped my childhood. being further abused does not fix your behavior, if changed at all you’re numb. yet Loki seems jovial. Loki should be making jokes, not be the joke…

Many people was uninformed on proper healing due to media stereotypes. Media goes a long way and it the source of information for a great many people. Actor Sophia (likely unknowing the harms) comments on the kiss “fixing ” Loki

“[Loki] says something really nice to her before they kiss. Loki basically says, ‘I’ve always hurt everyone I’ve always been close to. I’m a horrible person, but you’ve changed me because I care about you, and I want you to be OK.’ And for someone to say, ‘I want you to be OK,’ it’s such a nice thing to hear, especially for someone who’s damaged as Sylvie.”

Sophia Di Martino, Sylvie’s actor also commented on how Sylvie lived a “harder life” saying Sylvie’s different from Lokis behavior

“I didn't want to make Sylvie too posh, she hasn't had an easy life. She hasn't grown up as a princess, like Loki had grown up as a prince - she's had a very different experience. I wanted to keep her really grounded.” Trauma is not a contest and Sylvie being on the run, is not comparable to Lokis abuse for over 1000 years. In the first movie being the perfect diplomatic, collected, and educated prince but still never being enough for his father. (Source https://href.li/?https://www.leftlion.co.uk/read/2021/august/loki-star-sophia-di-martino-on-joining-the-marvel-universe/ ) note* this isn’t against Sophia however, sheds lights on how misconception of mental health spreads. Most people do believe this and don’t know that it can be hurtful. I do not have anything against the actors Positive neutral opinions of both.

It’s hard to believe after all this, being beaten around and watching a short video on his life’s failures, Loki no longer possess the same mannerisms. Mobius goes as far as to blame Loki for his mother’s death, despite his intention of sending the intruders to Thor, who could very much handle them. Frigga being the only person who ever showed love to Loki. There’s no way Loki would know his mother would be there. Mobius also insults Loki trying to break him down.

Kate Herron comments on Sylvies behavior vs Loki’s change “She hasn't had the Mobius therapy session. She even says, in Episode Five, "I don't know how to do this. I don't have friends." (source: https://href.li/?https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a37050778/kate-herron-loki-finale-season-2-interview/ she also commented “He's on a very different path, and he's obviously done a lot of self-reflection and self-healing, his therapy with Mobius. Sylvie hasn't had” (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/collider.com/loki-kate-herron-director-interview-season-1-finale/amp/ ) now I’m not sure about Kates therapist, but that’s unlike any therapy I’ve ever had. This was not character development. Its not uncommon for victims of abuse to end up in a relationship with an abuser because it’s familiar. However this would’ve be immensely atypical and unhealthy for Loki as he displays need for praise and reinforcement.

In Thor 1, Loki freezes Heimdal as opposed to killing him. He tries to talk sense into Thor and avoid confrontation in Jotunnheim. Although unpopular Thor 2 had excellent character development for Loki and a person grieving. Loki is sent to prison without any contact with his mother. She vouched for him, when Odin wanted him be put to death. Odin says Loki’s birth right was to die. Gaslighting him. (Reminder than Loki’s actions were under the control of Thanos.) In TDW When a chained Loki is presented to Odin, Loki requests to be executed rather than spent the next 4000 years alone with his thoughts, and be without contact with his mother. Yet he is not given trial.

Loki has been to war before, but in Thor 1 he does not display the murderous drive to rule (as he did while mind controlled in the avenger) Though this scene ( https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/u_iOTgLoru0 ) was never finished. We see Loki in jail is living in a hellish reality. He is not allowed to attend his mother funeral, and creates an illusion so you cannot see him distraught on the floor. Unkept and room a mess (which is a very different look for him) when Thor visits him for the first time Loki asks if Frigga was in pain, but is shut down. Loki agrees to help Thor for the sake of vengeance for his mother. We see him take heroic moments out of his own will. (Which continue is Ragnarok despite the more comedic and somewhat foolish depiction of him)

In Ragnarok Loki leaves Odin in a geriatric home rather than kill him, yet Thor blames Loki for his death. Loki says he never meant for it to happen and in Odins final words, he gaslights Loki again saying he loved him despite Odins previously display of cruelty, to his adopted son. earlier saying he should’ve left him to die. Now saying he loved him.

“You weren’t born to be king, Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That’s how it is, that’s how it was, that’s how it will be” -Mobius.

In Wandavision we see excellent character development of Wanda coming to terms with her grief, acknowledging the pain she feels yet isn’t ready to address it. I feel Loki was not given the same exploration of character.

A note I’d like to add on trauma; was personally (though many will disagree) Loki’s “strip tease” was uncomfortable. It’s filmed in a sexual, comical, and fan service manner; while it’s not consensual and Loki explicitly says no. It was pointed out to me, that Sylvie as a child went though the same traumatizing process. Something that scarred her. But Loki is not treated with the same sympathy, even as an adult it would still be very traumatic. If we just swapped genders and had adult Sylvie go though this, or femme presenting Loki, it’s incredibly messed up to expose her. Therefore it’s still messed up to expose him. Mens sexual assault and sexualization is often ignored and brushed aside, so this rubbed me the wrong way a bit. It’s clearly a moment to be sexualized considering the amount of “sexy” compromising positions they put Loki in (bet over a table, on his knees begging) and the neck breaking hair flips, in attempt to add fan service. This is the concept art for the scene where he looks horrified and is restrained. Writer Michael Waldron praised himself for the scene saying he gave fans the hottest Loki content. This is all interesting considering when asked about a mlm relationship, Waldron said season 2 will not fall to fans service

Out of character:

I could go on and on about this so I’ll keep it short…In the series titled “Loki” it felt like anyone but. Loki is brought into the TVA with no magic. However even lacking magic Loki is a god. He, like Thor, has super strength, faster healing capabilities (bullets even bounce off him), superior endurance and is incredibly witty. Yet he is easily man handled by few TVA agents, when it took several avengers beating on him to subdue him. This is the same 2012 Loki. If shown a quick video and beat around (and definitely wouldn’t be on his knees) Loki would not become suddenly willing to change. His characters nature would be to shut off and shut down. Becomes irritable and closed instead. Even with “character development” we see in Thor The Dark World, Thor Ragnarok, and several of the recent comic books: even when good, Loki is still ultimately the trickster god.

However there was a surprising lack of tricks in the series. We see Loki humiliated and tortured. Loki is defiant with a will of fire, that through all his troubles has never flickered. Yet in the series it is extinguished completely, and he follows the path set for him. He acts “silly” without retaining any purpose, wit, or intelligence. He follows after Sylvie like a lost kitten. Lacking any critical thinking Loki’s idea was to stab Aloith, who is essentially a cloud. Loki has progressively become underpowered and dumbed down, the punching bag for the sake of comedy. However the nerf he took in the series was critical. Loki is unable to do any of the magic previously established in the MCU. Strictly referring to his Seidr, he is on level with Wanda Maximoff and above Amora the Enchantress. Even surpassing Steven Strange in the comics. The most in character and mischievous we got to see was in the first episode as DB Cooper for 2 minutes. You can’t tell me in a work place he wouldn’t be harassing people and making their work day miserable, feeding off them like an energy vampire (what we do in the shadows ref) In the MCU he feels unable to keep up with even the crocodile. No jokes, no wit, no magic. Only able to create firework or dry himself off…This brings us to our next issue…

(Chart from Marvels official website showing characters strength ratings for later reference. The chart refers to the comics as there is not one available for the MCU)

Plot hole list:

These are plot holes and inconsistencies based on the previously established mcu world and not comics since we could go on forever about 616, Nerco god and sorcerer supreme Loki.

Magic: Loki is unable to enchant in the series yet we see him enchant Valkeryie in Ragnarok. Marvels official bio of MCU Loki says “Loki possesses strength, durability, and longevity far superior to humans. The most powerful sorcerer in all of Asgard, Loki's magical abilities include astral projection, shape-shifting, hypnosis, molecular rearrangement, energy blasts, levitating, conjuration, cryokinesis, telekinesis and teleportation” (mind you this isn’t even comic Loki) He’s seen tipsy (which would take a massive amount of alcohol, remember Thor brings his own) and unable to produce magic other than fireworks. It’s unlikely Sylvie would be able to teach Loki anything new. Loki was formally trained in magic in his 1000+ years of study in Asgard. Where were his magical capabilities?

Combat skills: Loki is over 1000 years old. Raised in a warrior culture. The MCU bio says “A highly-tactical thinker, Loki is able to manipulate opportunities and events in his favor; his cunning mind far exceeding Thor and Odin's. Loki, an expert combatant, typically wields throwing knives and other small blades.” We also see him take on Thor with a staff to a draw. Without magic Asgardians still have Super Strength, advanced durability, faster healing regeneration and extended life span. He was able to be minimally injured after beaten by the hulk and knocked around by the avengers. However he was contained and overpowered by a small number of TVA agents. Loki has gone into battle and war alongside Thor. Even without magic he is a force to be reckoned with. Catching an arrow without even looking due to his high natural senses. Loki can touch the infinity stones while humans and most species cannot. We see bullets bounce off him. But suddenly is incompetent, resorting to throwing a vacuum at Sylvie possessing a human. Getting knocked to the ground. Constantly humiliated. (See image with chart)

Frost Giant: since there is no magic in the TVA many wondered how it was possible that Loki didn’t revert to his frost giant form. The explanation given by the team was that Odins magic was permanently altering, however that can’t be true if he turns blue when touching the casket (It could be argued the mind stone had long term effects on Loki the way Odins magic did. Leading him to be compliant with authority and dazed upon entering the TVA post nyc attack) Loki he was “cold” in the void with Sylvie. We even see in the first avengers movie, when Loki is in the containment chamber, on the small panel it shows he has no heat signature, because his body temperature is cold. We never even talked about him being a Jotunn. The most we got to see of Jotunn Loki was a image of a frost giant variant. What If pulled through on the identity thing. Showing if he was raised comfortable with who he was and loved he’d be playful, witty, a little mocking but not evil or cruel.

We even see in the first avengers movie, when Loki is in the containment chamber, on the small panel it shows he has no heat signature, because his body temperature is cold.

Lokis Allspeak: Loki acts confused in the first episode when he arrives in Mongolia and doesn’t know what the people are saying. As a god he has Allspeak. We can assume it exists in mcu because the people in Germany and Pompeii understand him. He also speaks English and old Norse. In GOTG most people have implanted translators, but Thor and Loki don’t need them to understand the alien races. In GOTG Quill doesn’t have universal translator just a general one, so he is unable to speak Sakaaran, yet Thor and Loki understand the language. I don’t believe Hulk speaks to anyone on Sakaar other than Valkyrie who also has Allspeak. Thor is one of the few who understands Groot, Thor makes a joke that he “took the language as an elective” however director James Gunn says it was merely a joke and he was able to understand it due to his godly abilities. How did Loki sing an “Asgardian” song without the entire thing coming out as English?

Alphabet: Although Asgardian language has Allspeak it’s writing is not. Loki signs his name with Latin letters when it should be in Norse runes. We see runes appear in Wandavision and so Loki should sign his name as ᛚᚢᚴᛁ.

I’m ignoring the sacred timeline and destiny is prewritten issues because I don’t have the energy…These are less of plot holes and more unexplained patches

Sylvie Pruned: Sylvie says she was pruned before Loki was even born. I assume she means her timeline, but timelines are reset and not erased. If she is the only “female variant” and that’s why caused her to be arrested by the TVA, why did they simply not get her at birth?

Sylvie’s Horns: ceremonially on a helm different symbols represent different achievements. Wings (Thor) mean royalty who has mastered battle. the uru horns (Loki) means Royal master of magic. Odins helmet has both. So we can assume Sylvie stole hers, since she wasn’t old enough to hone her Seidr. Did she steal them from Agent of Asgard Loki? If she dyed her hair and changed her name to run from the TVA, why does she still wear the iconic sign of Loki? Sophia Di Martino states

“Director Kate Herron really wanted to use the broken-horn look from the comics. We played around with the scale, and Kate loved them being smaller and practical for a woman on a mission almost more of a weapon than an adornment and status piece."

However the creator and comic artist, Lee Garbett is mentioned nowhere by crew or in the concept art book.

Laevateinn: (not to be mistaken with Gram the sword of Truth or the Twilight Sword) Loki’s sword than can be summoned to him. The sword can be used to channel magic through it. It can cut through anything except Mjolnir. (CBR has a good summary of how underwhelming the introduction of the blade was)

Amora the Enchantress: in the comics Amora is Lokis friend, Enemy, Lover, and Ally. In Agents of Shield, Lorelei, Amora’s sister is featured. This implies Amora exists as well. However Amora was used as an inspiration for Sylvie and is likely not to be seen. Sylvie Laufeydottir becoming the Enchantress would contradict her as well as the comics. Sylvie Lushton being banished and never seen again after using Amoras title to gain attention. Amora adding “there is only one enchantress Sylvie Lushton” if there is a Sylvie, Skurge (Amora’s partner in crime) and a Lorelei, where is Amora? She should be relevant as she has been an adversary to Wanda, Vision, Hulk, Thor, Hela and ally to Loki. She’s fought Stephen Strange and is labeled the most powerful sorceress in Asgard. Actor Tom Hiddleston raised Amora as a future idea to interact with Loki’s character circa 2012. Many misinterpret his involvement with the shows creation. As executive producer his job is to raise funds and organize resources, he does not have any artistic input. He joked that the writers ignored 99% of his ideas. Does he still want her? We may never know. But she was at one time a candidate for content.

Timeline bombing: what happened after the bombing of the time line? Why did that have no effect? There wasn’t meant to be a second season, so there is no slow burn or foreshadowing. This was meant to go unaddressed.

Sacrifice for the series: Loki is genderfluid and bisexual. He was featured in the Marvel Voices: Pride comic under gender identity, sexuality and on the cover. However he was removed from the cover shortly before the series aired. People had noticed Loki’s disappearance. He was only returned to the cover after backlash. No one truly knows why he was removed, however some speculate it was to make his debut in the series “more significant” despite being genderfluid in the comics for quite a while. The revoking of Loki’s depiction on the cover is literal erasure. (Sources https://href.li/?https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disappearing-reappearing-queer-loki-on-marvels-voices-pride-cover/ and a really good one on why it’s a problem https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/comic-watch.com/news/commentary/holding-out-for-a-hero-loki-erasure-and-the-future-of-trans-representation-lokis-genderfluidity-in-marvel-pt-2/amp all this has had real consequences. When I posted a prompt, many confessed that on outting of their gender, many received remarks specifically referenced to the Loki series in a negative way. That they must be “attracted to themselves like Loki” that they’re weird or freaks. Several twitter users even admitted that they no longer feel comfortable coming out as genderfluid. This is a sacrifice in itself. Some even said they felt sick upon watching the scene declaring Sylvie was the only woman, or ashamed to come out to someone who’s seen the series. Additionally a sacrifice was taking several strong fem characters and forming them into Sylvie, limiting the future of the MCU.

In Lore

Now the MCU depiction is very different from the tales of the Norse gods. I will speak on this only briefly as it’s not completely relevant, but was asked of me. There are people who practice worship of Loki and the Norse pantheon; one member has brought up that they felt it’s sacrilegious against their god. Though they did not have a problem with majority of Lokis depiction (including his change of family relation.) During Lokasenna, the god Loki accused and mocked Freya and Freyr of incest, therefore Loki falling for Loki is slander upon his name. The counters argument is that Loki would not be offended at taboo, as he mated with a horse and birthed Slepnir. This however is ignoring some details. In the story Loki was to stop a Jotunn from building a wall around Asgard; or he would be killed by the gods. The only way to distract the giant was to have his horse run away. Loki took the form of a mare, and drew the stallion away from the giant, causing the giant to follow for a long enough time. It wasn’t particularly consensual, as it was a situation by coercion under threat by the gods. Using the Slepnir incident is considered ignorance to Norse religion.

Poor Writing(not that I get to talk):

This I won’t go in depth on as there are many explanation videos and film blogs who have addressed this…

Such as a short article here https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/06/08/loki-review-disney-disappoints-in-latest-mcu-live-action-series/?sh=5c32dd934f43 and a really excellent twitter thread (yes I know not a “reputable” source) by another film major here https://twitter.com/DIOLESBIAN/status/1416408887889211392?s=20

The overall writing felt messy. It jumped around too quickly without developing any real storyline, yet somehow also felt very slow (such as Kangs 20 min monologue.) Though excessive dialogue isn’t a bad thing, it breaks “Show, don't tell.” Something any writer or filmmaker is familiar with. It’s good to break norms, but it didn’t feel purposeful. The multiverse was interesting story to introduce and can be a confusing topic to write but felt generally, lack luster. I know we weren’t expecting Spielberg level cinema, but the writing lacked depth of character or nuance.

It is not a good sign when the show runner misspeaks and says it’s Odin who killed Laufey. While that happened in the original Thor comics, it has been retconned since the first Thor movie, as well as several times in the comics.

Though they may be looking too far into it. Many fans on social media even accuse Michael original script of being very similar to the Loki series.

Michael Waldron original script: (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/comments/owqap4/i_fear_for_wanda_maximoff/) similar to Sylvie being the “superior Loki” the characters in the script around the main character are brought down to lift her up in comparison. Rather that have her own equal achievements.

The out of characterness of Loki was not “character development.” If it was it wouldn’t feel..out of character. This isn’t fault of any of the actors, they can only do as well as the writing gives them. Similar to the way Sylvie is written higher but bringing other characters lower, in an attempt at fake woke “girl boss” only gal in a mans world.

We were all sold this idea of following the god of mischief influencing moments in time, yet this wasn’t what the series was about at all.

The trailers even containing clips that weren’t in the show. Even the show itself not feeling like it was about Loki. Fans were baited with the allure of an old character, finally getting the sun to shine on him…

Additionally here is a list of receipts from the crew

What can fans do?

Not much honestly as it was immensely popular to casual viewers (who makes the majority.) however there are steps we can take to peacefully bring the issue to light. Please reblog or share this post, but more importantly, If you are a fan and wish to make a change, consider sharing this writing a kindly worded letter devoid of ships, opinions, ideas or job requests to:

C/O Kevin Feige

The Frank G Wells Building, 2nd Floor

500 South Buena Vista Street,

Burbank California

91521

You can take from, copy, use ideas from or print what I’ve written within context. Unfortunately there is no email or digital address for MCU. So the mailing address is the only way for direct contact.

If you’re a comic fan, think about sending your fan mail praises to [email protected] (this is comics only, they have no association with the MCU or the show series) tell them why you liked the comics! again do not ask for a job or pitch any ideas…end your email with “OK To print” if you’d be open to it being shared or published in a comic book. You can also send paper fan mail to 1290, 6th ave, NY, NYC (strictly comics only not associated with the show or MCU)

For many Loki stans and veteran fans, the Loki series felt like a kick to the head. The series was out of character, the “representation” did more harm than good, the writing was messy, and was inconsistent with prior information established within the MCU. Many felt the series was not about the Loki we know and love.

Thank you for reading. If you got through this mess I appreciate it. You may think we are reaching, but please do not write us off so soon. Please at least acknowledge that your hear what people are saying. That you care about us. Readers feel free to send agrees or disagreements or comment.

Apologies for my poor writing, redundancy, and thanks sm for everyone who showed support. As cliche as it is, remember to drink water, unclench your jaw, and get some rest. And please buy your comics rather than bootleg, as comic artists and writers aren’t paid fairly and their art is used without credit. Good luck to the new directors and let’s hope to see some changes or acknowledgment. Loki is property of Marvel studios, official tumblr can be found here with information and updates on season 2 @marvelstudios @marvelentertainment

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