Wondering about Something

[isolatedbubble]

It’s pretty common to see people comparing Xie Lian to Shen Qiao (from Thousand Autumns) , but the way I see it, they are not that similar.

Both characters are INFJ, as they are both kind-hearted people characterized by altruism and ideals.

Shen Qiao’s arc is about how he never lets external evil sway his own beliefs, pursuits and moral law, despite all the betrayals and heartbreaks that he has experienced, including from the ML. He is characterized by a pursuit of an ideal higher than himself, and works relentlessly towards the singular abstract ideal.

Xie Lian’s arc is about how he was nearly pushed into a desperate position and lost touch with his ideal, but managed to regain inner passion because he saw the simplest kindness in the common people. Xie Lian is a god but he is at his heart HUMAN. He really dislikes and even fears it when people put blind faith into the glorious image he once presented to the world.

I really don’t think those arcs are essentially similar. Their arcs are aligned with the respective themes of the novel, and ultimately the worldviews of the author.

In terms of romance, it’s hard to make comparisons because the MLs are drastically different, and the overall vibes of the relationships are also different at every level.

One thing worth mentioning is that Xie Lian is actually not as forgiving and naive as Shen Qiao in intimate relationships, partially due to his long history of extreme pain and suffering. XL could not possibly fall for someone who could intentionally hurt and betray him. His trust in HC is based on HC being kind and respectful towards him throughout their interactions.

[fruityrunnergirl]

Isn’t it beautiful how TGCF introduces these foils for Hualian’s relationship to explore versions of Hua Cheng’s devotion that *aren’t* healthy—like the whole subplot with the woman general and Pei Ming and her obsession with him, her desire to stay with him resulting in her sacrificing herself and her legs, and the result of her continued obsession—kidnapping brides. Vs Hua Cheng and his cave of 1000 gods, of his selfless devotion and healthy “attachment” without a goal of reciprocation even after sacrificing himself for his god, his prioritization of Xie Lian’s happiness…

[isolatedbubble]

To add on to this, Bai Jing is also Hua Cheng’s foil. It is explicitly stated by Ling Wen that the Brocade Immortal didn’t work on Hua Cheng because Bai Jing feels like they are similar in their absolute devotion and willingness to die for one’s love.

The difference lies in that Ling Wen didn’t fully treasure Bai Jing’s love (however his feelings are somewhat returned), while Hua Cheng’s love is fully reciprocated by Xie Lian. Neither of them really care about reciprocation though.

Hua Cheng’s love towards Xie Lian is described as 孤注一掷，死亦无悔, which is also the motto for his gambling den. It means betting everything on one single cause against all odds, and would die with no regret for it.

I think Bai Jing’s story showcases the potential sacrifices one might make for absolute love, the potential prices of devotion. Hua Cheng is lucky in the sense that he falls for someone with a loving heart, and they get to build an equal and sweet relationship out of the initially unequal dynamic.

[justanotherclosetednerd]

Something I really love about Xie Lian and Hua Cheng is that their relationship was always one of support

Sometimes I feel that LGBTQ+ romantic representation can be really aggresive and even violent. Through teasing, competing, and/or denial, relations are often supported by feelings of rage

But, from the very start, Xie Lian and Hua Cheng had nothing but kindness and compassion to each other, even if the world around them was hard and violent

I like that

[isolatedbubble]

In the TGCF new Chinese edition, due to censorship, MXTX has to change the phrase “the person I love” into something more subtle, and her choice of words is “珍重”, which means “to treasure and respect”.

I find it very fascinating because despite that this word is rarely associated with romantic love, it suits hualian to a tee. This sets the tone of their relationship, one of mutual support, respect and sweetness.

I like that HuaLian are nearly always gentle and understanding with one another, that their differences in views and stances never poses a real challenge to their relationship. Against the backdrop of a cruel and dangerous world, their love shines through as incredibly romantic.

[isolatedbubble]

On Hua Cheng's individuality

Does Hua Cheng lack independence? I would say, yes, and purposefully so. However, it's more complicated than that.

HC considers it an honor what many readers criticize him for---that he literally dies and lives for this one person, "if your dream is to save the common people, my dream is only you."

BUT, for someone whose entire arc revolves around absolute dedication, HC surprisingly does have a strong sense of individuality, or to be more specific, independent thoughts, values and distinct personality traits aside from his devotion to XL.

In most cases, characters defined by romantic love & devotion lack individuality in the first place, and live vicariously through others, relying on love to find their inner sense of self, which I don't really consider a bad thing. HC is not like that; he does possess individuality, but he would forgo it instantly for XL.

HC's values were inspired by XL from the very start(otherwise it would be easy for him to turn into a more hostile person or just, you know, die at an early age out of despair), but he does not mirror XL, and is not afraid to speak his mind. For someone who considers devotion his top priority, HC's individuality is quite pronounced.

HC would never object to XL's decisions, except when XL is personally endangered. That said, he is crystal clear on what he personally considers right when their opinions differ: whether to save Mu Qing, how to run the gambling activities in Ghost City, the whole black water arc, etc. Furthermore, he does not hide his disdain for the Heavens throughout the entire story, even when XL could not possibly know why.

If this were one of those cliche love stories where the couple from different sides fall in love despite different values, TGCF would look genuinely creepy and unhealthy. This is because HC is unlike a normal person; he will not hesitate to sacrifice any sense of self he might have to serve XL's need, not even to earn his affection, just to make him feel better.

HC does smoothen his personality around XL; he is almost always playful and gentle, would never throw tantrums to XL under any circumstances. However, except for the initial "San Lang" facade where he approaches XL with his light and care-free side, HC does preserve whatever sense of self he has formed around XL. In the end, it's because XL loves HC for who he is, so he does not have to change any significant parts of himself after they reunite 800 years later.

When XL first got to know HC, his boundaries, gentleness, respect for HC's individuality and unspoken affection, make him unwilling to criticize anything about HC. As the affection grew deeper, XL's loves HC fully for who he is.

This intricate balance is hard to put into words, but I find it very fascinating.

[fannish-karmiya]

I've often noticed people in the MDZS fandom imply that the narrative essentially punishes all of the antagonists for their crimes and that, by extension, anyone who survives the end of the novel is thus not that bad, or at least redeemable. Personally, I find this a very flawed idea. MDZS is not a novel where justice prevails; it's a novel where those in power act with impunity and never face justice for it.

In fact, I think the only times anyone faces justice is when their victims happened to also be upper class.

No one in cultivation society cares that Jin Guangyao mass murdered prostitutes (twice). They don't even care that much about the smaller, less important sects who were massacred by Lanling Jin. They definitely don't care about the Wens. No, they care that he killed Nie Mingjue. They care that he married his sister, killed his father, and killed his son. Nie Huaisang only acted against Jin Guangyao because he wanted revenge for the death of his brother.

No one cares that Jiang Cheng led the siege and helped massacre 50 innocent people who were non-combatants (none of the Wen remnants had swords). No one cares that he spent 13 years hunting down people he suspects of practising guidao and torturing and killing them, regardless of whether they truly did or not, or whether they were using guidao to harm others or not. They also don't care that he sometimes killed people simply for having the name Wen and being unlucky enough to cross him.

That is why he survives to the end of the novel. Not because his crimes weren't horrific, not because he's been deemed redeemable or 'not that bad' by the narrative. But because his victims were people their society doesn't care about.

Dare I say it, it's the same with the Lans. Lan Xichen isn't being 'spared' by the narrative because he's just a hapless victim; his survival has nothing to do with whether he's a good person or not. In fact, he survived in the end because, to paraphrase MXTX: even scum has someone they care about. Gusu Lan's failings go unaddressed because their victims were people they could get away with hurting. Who will judge them as unrighteous for taking part in the siege, when all the other sects did, too? Who will judge them for how they imprisoned Lan-furen for life, when her fate was kept a secret and she had no powerful family to speak for her? Who will judge them for whipping Lan Wangji 33 times, when that, too, was kept a secret, and he was being punished for protecting Wei Wuxian, who the cultivation world only viewed as a dog to be put down? Who will judge them for not wanting to give shelter to Wen Yuan, an innocent child, when their whole world wanted to kill said innocent child?

Jiang Cheng is not left alive at the end because his crimes weren't 'that bad'. Lan Xichen isn't still alive because he's actually a good person (I'm sorry, when does he ever do anything actively good in the novel? he's very neutral). Lan Qiren isn't still alive and a respected elder of the Lan sect because he's a good person with no blood on his hands. All of the other sect leaders and cultivators who took part in the siege aren't alive because they were less culpable.

They're alive because their victims were people society doesn't care about, and still does not care about. That's it. That's the only reason.

[plan-d-to-i]

About the yzy ask you answered: I do feel wary saying this because I'm fully White™️ and scared of being Unwoke but I do think sometimes just because something is culturally appropriate does make it right. Anyone's who's ever taken anthropology 101 will have heard of some fucked up thing another society deems normal/rite of passage and obviously as scientists you need to be respectful of whoever you study but in our personal life it's alright to say actually I think hitting children at all is very morally wrong. I'm constantly shocked by how common it is in most places and how bad child protection policies are ("smacking" and "using reasonable force" with children are scarily common phrases for what's legal). I guess I don't actually care that much if it makes me culturally inconsiderate. Hurting children is not and never has been ethical! What a controversial take🙄

respecting someone's culture =/= Saying it's fine if they whip a child. Saying it's ok if they oppress and harm the vulnerable members of their society.

If you start including these things under the umbrella of culture, where do you draw the line? I guess it depends how much of your morals you're willing to barter in exchange for seeming accepting of things that should not be accepted. When something infringes on the health and well being of those who can't protect themselves that's no longer "respecting culture" that's being an accessory to fucked up shit. If those hurt people were to look out into the world and see others supporting their treatment how would they feel? There are plenty of aspects of different cultures deserving of respect; language, literature, art, philosophy etc. I don't understand these reaches that try to conflate clear abuses with "culture". Who does this benefit other than the people doing the abusing and perhaps the morons supporting it so they can circle jerk about their wokeness.

This world is going to shit because people care more about how they're perceived and the performative value their stances and opinions have when they air them out on social media, vs how they actually act and what's right. And of course there are those who have figured out that they can meet with relative success if they demand unquestioning acceptance of fucked up shit vehemently enough and deem any objections raised "not woke >:-/". So I don't give a fuck about "looking woke". It's not my drive in life to please some ever changing standard of behavior that some fuckwit stranger wants to judge me on so they can feel better about their miserable existence wherein their entire self worth is founded on how others see them.

It's ironic that this discussion is taking place around MDZS when Wei Wuxian is the hero of the story precisely because he stands up against the majority and what they deem permissible.

Wei WuXian, “Did I say something wrong? Forcing living people to be bait and beating them up whenever they refused to obey—is this any different from what the QishanWen Sect does?”

Another guest cultivator stood up, “Of course it’s different. The Wen-dogs did all kinds of evil. To arrive at such an end is only karma for them. We only avenged a tooth for a tooth, letting them taste the fruit that they themselves had sown. What’s wrong with this?”

[k1201a]

all these woke people making "cultural" arguments are culturally....american, only ethnically chinese. their only supporting argument is "my mother" who's also american, while many others have cited examples of very healthy relationships between adoptive parents and brothers in other cdrama.

[plan-d-to-i]

💯👆. These kinds of arguments get made a lot, not just in this fandom. They're almost never actually in the service or interest of the culture they claim to be defending/respecting.

[xiaobenhuo]

someone brought up Catelyn from Game of Thrones, this character type is a mainstay in family drama, it's enduringly and universally common across cultures, there's nothing, absolutely NOTHING culturally unique or special about YZY.

[annalacerda17]

Ppl making this kinds of arguments miss the point that the novel itself frames YZY and JC as being in the wrong. This isn't about culture, YZY is an antogonist, who behaves as such and is framed as such by the narrative. Any "cultural" argument is made moot by the novel itself.

Other parents in the novel don't behave like her. The best parental figure we get in MDZS is LWJ. The novel compares how LSZ was raised by LWJ and how JL was raised by JC (in a similar way YZY raised JC himself) and concludes that LWJ did a far better job. JL's entire arc in the novel is about growing out of the bad traits he was raised by JC to have. And JC's entire "tragedy" is that he never grows out of the bad traits he was raised to have by YZY.

[isolatedbubble]

As a born-and-raised Chinese person, I find it strange, insulting even, that anyone would justify corporal punishment for children or guilt by family association (in the Wen remnant case) in MDZS.

Yes, those actions might not be judged as wrong in-universe, because they are not against the mainstream values there. But what is MDZS’ take on the “mainstream”? Not exactly very favorable. MDZS is a novel written in modern time, by a modern author, for a modern audience. The acts above are specifically framed as wrong by the narrative. To whitewash them by claiming that it was culturally appropriate defies the narrative of the novel.

What about Chinese culture? Historically speaking, hurting children or guilt by family association are not unique to Chinese culture. Saying that they are inherently Chinese is to imply that Chinese culture is somehow barbaric. Many Chinese people also consider those things wrong and it doesn’t make us less Chinese.

Opinion: Not being Chinese only means that one should keep an open mind on factual matters. For instance, to insist that Banyue arc is islamophobic ignores the fact that Xinjiang issue is kept away from most CN people in 2017. It’s unlikely that MXTX has any political implication, and I haven’t seen even one Chinese citizen interpret it that way. However, ethnicity doesn’t disqualify anyone from speaking their minds about the morality of the work. Chinese people, culturally or ethnically, do not have automatically better takes on morals. Especially for MXTX, I find her writing very individualistic in its core, more about personal morality than cultural values. Even though she loves putting Chinese cultural anecdotes here and there, her messages are not supposed to be culturally contextual imo.

[verycharismaticdragon]

Hi! I absolutely LOVE ur detailed meta on tyk. Your analysis on wenzhou relationship is so in-depth and beautiful. I’ve seen that you think novel zzs is more traditionally masculine than wkx, and I agree. Actually, 20+ Chinese people who answered my poll agree that novel zzs is the most masculine among the 4 main characters in the tyk and shl (plus mdzs&cql wangxian)..

So, my question is: how do you think the gender performance & gender role of show wenzhou and novel wenzhou differ? If you think there is a clear difference, what’s your speculation about the reason behind such changes?

I am a Chinese person interested in gender norms in danmei novels/shows, and I would appreciate your insights on this!

So I've been sitting on this ask for a while because... well, the way danmei works approach gender is a fascinating topic and one that I'm interested in, but also one I’m largely unequipped to discuss in-depth, as I lack familiarity with 1) danmei genre and its conventions and trends, 2) Chinese cultural norms, historical and especially modern, and 3) academic studies on gender, – and I also don’t have neither time nor energy to go on a research binge right now, the way I did when writing TYK/SHL comparisons. Because of these gaps in knowledge, I can’t approach the topic from every angle and offer a thorough analysis; I want to make clear that I’m not accidentally missing possible approaches but rather intentionally skipping them.

That said, there are a couple of angles I can work off; perhaps those hypotheses will be of interest to you, or at least function as starting points for your own analysis.

–––––

The first point I want to speculate on is the one I’ve mentioned before, if vaguely: the way differences in WenZhou’s gender presentation in the novel stem from their contrasting approaches to social performance in general. Of the two, Zhou Zishu is much more concerned with appearances, the norms and rules of polite society instilled into him by his life in the capital (and perhaps by having to take up the role of Manor Master prior). Conversely, moving past that, taking off those literal and metaphorical masks and refusing to continue playing by the rules, is one of the central threads of his character arc; but his starting setting is someone who has trouble letting go of his previously established mindset. On the other hand, Wen Kexing, all throughout the text, is that person who ‘laughs when he wants to, plays the ruffian when he feels like it’ (quoting from memory, wording may be off). It’s not that he’s incapable of performing dignity (he is polite when he wants to be, e.g. when talking to Wu Xi or Long Que, or that brief time he and Zishu were putting on airs in front of Cao Weining); it’s more that he simply does not bother with conforming to social standarts (this very much includes him being openly gay and making it everyone else’s problem).

So, how does this reflect onto their gender presentation? (cont. under cut)

The way I read it, Zhou Zishu has a more rigid idea of masculinity and is more concerned about performing it, while Wen Kexing doesn’t much care how he comes off. Think about the use of ‘husband’ and ‘wife’ between them: Zhou Zishu very easily accepts the title of the husband, but still bristles at a mere implication of being considered the wife even five years later (last extra); Wen Kexing, on the other hand, doesn’t mind getting called the wife – there’s even an instance of him referring to himself as such in internal narration, if memory serves, – though he also thinks of himself as husband on occasion. Simply put, Wen Kexing’s gender performance is more relaxed, while Zhou Zishu asserts his gender identity every time there’s even an imaginary hint of him not being perceived as a man. In that way, the contrast between their presentations is not due to some innate qualities, but rather to the difference in the level of investment they have in maintaining appearances; if Zhou Zishu seems more masculine in comparison, it’s because he’s the only one putting in effort.

But this is for novel canon. I think that some part of a reason why show WenZhou’s gender performance doesn’t match up to their novel counterparts is that the more blatant indicators (such as husband and wife rp) couldn’t be shown, while their social performances are pretty different. Show Zishu’s arc does not follow the same trajectory of gradually discarding the constraints of society, – his decision to leave Tian Chuang isn't about feeling trapped in the political landscape but rather about losing faith in the cause, the motif of masks isn't built up, and so on, – which means that there isn't a basis for reading him as someone who puts on appearances and is used to following rigid social rules. Wen Kexing’s presentation also changed: the whole gentleman / literati vibe (carrying folding fan, playing xiao, quoting poetry every three lines) simply isn't present in the novel. Because of those changes, that contrast I spoke about for the novel doesn’t really exist in the show: Zhou Zishu isn’t as concerned with appearances, while Wen Kexing shows more effort at blending in with the society. (There’s even this small detail I happened to make note of: in the novel, after arriving at Zhao’s, there’s a hilarious bit where Zhou Zishu gets talked to by various people and, feigning politeness, replies to them all with basically the same phrase with only slight variation; in the show, it is Wen Kexing who does that instead.) And with that gap between their social presentations bridged, there's no longer a source for difference in the level of effort they put into gender performance either.

In fact, you could even take a step further and make an argument that, in SHL, the one more likely to put up a front is Wen Kexing, and therefore he is the one with heightened gender performance. Perhaps tie those added scenes of him drinking with girls to this, consider it as him faking hеtero-masculinity... But this is just a possible avenue to explore if you want to; I myself am not that interested in working out exact nuances for the show's canon.

Anyway, to conclude this section, – on the level of gender performance, novel Zhou Zishu actively asserts his identity, show Wen Kexing possibly plays his up a bit, show Zhou Zishu doesn’t exhibit any inclination, and novel Wen Kexing is canonically chill with however he is perceived. As for why there are differences, I think it's primarily a reflection of changes affecting their general social presentation, which all have different sources: Zhou Zishu’s character arc, especially a thread of exiting the society, was changed to accommodate added subplots; Wen Kexing's whole new vibe, I'm pretty sure, was a way to skirt c/nsorship (quite a number of instances of him meaningfully quoting poetry are replacements for blatant, unоbscured flirting from the novel); and honestly I still have no idea why a thread of Wen Kexing being the one to hide behind masks was added.

–––––

Then, another angle this topic can be approached from is how conventions and cliches of hеtero-traditionalist romance narratives affect our perceptions of characters’ gender presentation in m/m fiction.

No matter how fed up we are with those cliches, we know them, and we know which role is associated with which gender in literary tradition (e.g., damsel in distress: the rescuer is a man, the one saved is a woman). But what happens when those tropes and conventions are employed for m/m stories? Those associations, those ‘narrative genders’ so to speak, end up projected onto characters regardless of their stated identity (or get appended to their stated identity, like the recently popular ‘malewife’ moniker). There’s a lot of criticism going around regarding m/m fiction perpetuating traditionalist gender roles, but I think it misses an important nuance: since most of the romance tropes and conventions originate in het fiction, those connotations end up existing regardless of authorial intent. Every little thing: who is the one courting and who gets pursued, who gets center stage in action scenes and who cheers from the sidelines, who shows more emotion (or does more emotional labor), who is naive and who is worldly, who gets rescued and who does the rescuing, and, yes, who takes which role in bed, – none of those are inherently gendered, yet all have gender connotations in fiction, because of the literary tradition existing prior. With near-everything having such association attached, is it even possible to completely avoid 'perpetuating gender roles'?

But I do believe this is something authors are aware of, and take steps to counter. In most danmei novels I've read (not that many, mind), each character would get some indicators of one role and some of another, so the overall impression would balance out. As an example, and to return to the topic at hand: consider how in TYK, Wen Kexing is the one pursuing, while Zhou Zishu is the one getting won over; yet at the same time, Zhou Zishu is the gruff and stoic one, while Wen Kexing is emotional and affectionate; and so on.

Because the story doesn’t stick either of the characters into a fixed ‘narrative gender’, all of those traits and actions just come off as differences in characters’ personalities rather than indicators of gender identity. Like, Wen Kexing gets called ‘wife’ in TYK fandom, but that’s largely because he canonically takes up the label; had novel WenZhou gone by husband & husband in canon, I think people would just as easily go along with that. (If my understanding is correct, there is a basis for Wen Kexing being designated ‘wife’ from standpoint of traditional spousal responsibilities as they are portrayed in Chinese pseudo-historical fiction, but, again, this is out of my range of knowledge; and above, I’m talking more about readers' impression.) All in all, when reading, you don’t get the feeling that either takes up a feminine role at all.

This is the situation for TYK as I see it. For SHL, even I, someone who does not go into that fandom's spaces, caught wind of the whole SHL!Zishu getting called ‘laopo’/’wife’ trend. Interestingly enough, from what I’ve seen, show Wen Kexing didn’t get ‘husband’ affixed to him as strongly; and of course, the label doesn’t originate in the novel (unlike, for example, people utilizing mdzs wangxian’s ‘spousal roles’ for cql fic/headcanons), being the opposite of what’s stated on the page; so what, exactly, about show Zishu ended up generating this impression? I’m not going to pretend at certainty, but to me, it feels like the balance of ‘narrative gender’ indicators was slightly off for him – not to the point of him being stuck in a role of female lead or anything, to be clear, but just enough to be noticeable and affect the viewers’ perception of his gender presentation. I’ve seen a few people’s theories on the reasoning behind the ‘laopo’ label, and other comments on SHL!Zishu ‘getting the part’ of the female lead, and all of them noted different things – particular scenes (hairpin scene was cited a few times), Zhou Zishu’s image (not looks but rather framing/light/costuming, if I recall correctly; been a while since I’ve read that piece), Zhou Zishu being physically affectionate and openly showing emotion... But I really don't think any one of those things would create such a strong and widespread impression; it is all of them together that ended up tipping the scales.

As for why show Zhou Zishu got all of those indicators piled onto him, when that wasn't the case for the novel version… My guess is that it wasn’t a deliberate decision on the writer’s part, but rather the consequences of other, largely unrelated changes coincidentally aligning that way, – and, obviously, I’m not going to track every single scene and character trait to its source, I’ve taken long enough with this ask as is. But I do want to outline what I feel might be a reason behind a significant amount of those adjustments: the show trying to make Zhou Zishu, and WenZhou, more immediately and easily likeable, for as wide an audience as possible.

Look, for any show, the sooner the viewers get invested into the main character and the main couple, the better. Problem is, on the surface, novel Zhou Zishu's sole likeable quality is the hilarious and scalding commentary going through his head, which is hard to translate onto the screen; and his adorable side is hard to notice, as he covers it up with gruffness or bluster. As for WenZhou, they are, to put it mildly, an oddball couple, which I personally find appealing, but I understand that's a bit of a niche taste. So, to compensate for that, the show smoothed down Zishu’s hard angles: made him less brusque, softer, more outwardly affectionate – there are even a few scenes where acts of care originally performed by novel Wen Kexing are done instead by Zishu, as if to try to distribute those actions more equally between the two, – and there’s no denying that it did have the intended effect, making show WenZhou more universally appealing; their popularity speaks for itself.

But it also just so happened that many of the character traits that got overwritten were exactly the ones that held up novel Zishu's masculine presentation – and thus, the impression the two versions of the character give off ended up noticeably different.

–––––

And last one; as I said in the beginning, I'm not familiar enough with danmei genre to offer analysis from that angle – even if I have some theories, I can't vеrify them, at least not right now. Thus, what I’m going to write out next is only a guess, and anyone who has more familiarity with the topic is welcome to offer insight or correct me if I’m just plain wrong. So! Going off the way TYK is already subverting one of its genres, and also off it being published in 2010 and what I recall of m/m fiction disc/ourse back then, I wonder if Zhou Zishu’s presentation was meant to be a direct subversion of (or at least a response to) the stereotype of ‘feminine shou’. Again, I think the criticisms regarding m/m fiction ‘perpetuating gender roles’ are largely undeserved; yet I also wouldn't say that there isn't any stereotyping at all. But I don't know if it was prevalent enough in danmei works in those specific years for Zhou Zishu’s vibe to be a subversion; so this is just a guess.

–––––

Well, I believe that's all I have to say on the subject. In closing, I want to once again clarify that this meta is incomplete intentionally. And also, that all this is based partially on my own impressions and partially on comments I’ve seen around, and even those two things are not entirely in harmony (for example, just because I see where laopo thing comes from doesn’t mean I agree with that evaluation), so it’s perfectly natural if you(general,reader) had a completely different impression and partially or fully disagree. Lastly, I’m open to any and all follow-ups! Can’t promise a coherent response, but can promise to give whatever it is a thought.

–––––

- TYK meta masterpost - - SHL meta masterpost -

[isolatedbubble]

Thanks for the thought-provoking answer, I really appreciate it!

On the “laopo” trend with drama zzs, I think I might be able to provide some observation & insights. It started in CN shl fandom, and I assume the meta you are referring to was initially written by a Chinese person too; at least the scenes quoted here are also frequently mentioned in CN meta. 

I think it’s perfectly normal that international fandom is a little baffled by it. In fact, even a lot of Chinese audience are confused over why drama zzs as well as his actor are most commonly referred to as “laopo/wife”(the first time in Chinese entertainment industry). According to my poll, even among Chinese people, drama zzs has the highest variance in terms of how people perceive his gender performance. 

The mentioned scenes and changes all play a role in his overall gender performance, but the narrative formed around those changes is more complex in CN fandom. For one thing, there are people who have positive feelings about shl seeing zzs as feminine because he is gentle, protective and openly affectionate etc. For another, there’s a popular narrative about why drama zzs is feminine among people who are critical of shl. 

SHL is WAY more controversial within CN fandom than in Eng fandom. There are a lot of things you (the OP) have criticized about shl WenZhou characterization that can well resonate with Chinese audience, whether they have read the novel or not: the constant misunderstanding, drama and conflict, the unnecessary differences in morality, etc. However, the way CN fandom approaches this criticism is quite different from Eng fandom, one of the differences being that many see drama zzs as wife-like or motherly, because they think he is put into the social role of a traditional Chinese wife/mother.

When a male character such as drama zzs in a danmei story is

1) unconditionally forgiving and warm despite being hurt, trying to guide and change his mentally childish partner's behavior for the better; 2) self-sacrificial in love, to the point of losing his sense of self; 3) put into a lover/supporter role and have his own wishes overlooked by the narrative; the character will be deemed "motherly"/wife-like by the Chinese fandom. It's not only about being gentle and nurturing, but a cultural/social role commonly associated with CN women, especially motherhood. For instance, the audience expected drama zzs to get furious at wkx for his flawed fake death plan that results in him getting rid of the nails, but zzs was so accepting that it felt strange. 

This kind of relationship, albeit between two men, triggers a lot of CN viewers, while Eng fandom don't tend to interpret it that way. Many of the most popular criticism of show WenZhou characterization mentions “Oedipus Complex”, claiming that show wkx is very childish and sees show zzs as a figurative “mother”. 

I don’t really agree with this interpretation that much. It’s easy to rebut as a logical claim; for example, isn’t drama wkx also self-sacrificial in love? Also, drama zzs isn’t unconditionally forgiving per se, otherwise there wouldn’t be as much drama between them. Also, what about more obviously self-sacrificial characters such as Hua Cheng? Why isn’t he considered wife-like even though he literally revolves his life around Xie Lian? 

That being said, I can definitely see where it comes from, because there’s a part of my born-and-raised Chinese brain that kinda instinctively felt that way too, even though I don’t think it’s logical. 

So...What does this mean? Tbh, I am still struggling to put it coherently. I guess gender role is a highly contextual and cultural social construct. Plus, Chinese danmei fandom tend to use BL as an escapism from hеtero-traditionalist tropes, so they can sometimes get hypersensitive when a character is considered feminine, esp. when he somehow fits a feminine gender role in their opinion. 

[isolatedbubble]

Romance in MXTX, Priest, and SHL

MXTX: Flower, Wine and Dreamworld

The romance in MXTX's works is like flower that grows in ice and snow; colorful, bright and hopelessly romantic, blossoms in misery and hardships.

It features a distinct "us against the world" mindset, depicting love as the only constant in the world. It's an eternal "dreamworld" detached from worldly matters, the perfect escapism as well as a source of strengths in the face of cruel reality.

Both MDZS and TGCF are a critique of mob mentality.

The contrast between CQL and MDZS is very interesting. While the former ends with LWJ taking charge, and therefore changing the world for the better, the novel ends with wangxian isolating themselves from grand politics and focusing more on helping individuals as recluse. It has an essentially pessimistic attitude towards the morality & intelligence of the collective. 

TGCF takes a slightly more optimistic approach, featuring the crowd being courageous under the right circumstances. However, both works share a similar undertone: putting one’s absolute faith in the collective is dangerous, whereas unconditional trust and devotion can be only found in one-to-one connection

MXTX herself compares MDZS and TGCF to 花间一壶酒 (A cup of wine among flowers), MDZS being the wine and TGCF being flower. She also compares MDZS to 风雪夜归人, the person returning home from snow and wind, and TGCF to 红泥小火炉, a small red furnace.

Priest: Breezing Wind and Burning Iron

The romance in priest's works is more complicated. It's the most gentle in its normal state, when it is rational and collected, in which case it's like the breezing wind, soothing, sweet and light-hearted. It gives the individuals more incentive to achieve their individual and/or societal vision, as well as more reason to value their own lives & well-being.

In Faraway Wanderers, the most distinct feature of WenZhou relationship is how in naturally sync they are, and how comfortable & smooth their dynamic is. They both have past burden, but it doesn’t matter, because they bring simple joy, understanding and happiness in each other’s lives.

In Sha Po Lang and The Guardian, the ML’s lingering love for the MC motivates them to become better version of themselves, to care about others, and to form a holistic vision about bettering society. 

In The Defective, Lin Jingheng(MC) explicitly said that Lu Bixing(ML) is the only meaning in his life. He had little incentive to care about his own life after his revenge plan fell apart. LBX helped him reconnect with his inner idealism, and gave him a reason value his life.

When the passion and fiery energy manifests itself, however, the romance is like burning iron, blood and fire. It isn’t actually toxic or unhealthy, but it's not pure and innocent either; in this case, it strives for something deeper and more intense, never content with the past or the present. The sheer intensity of relationship is like a double-edged sword, walking the fine line between unconditional devotion and dangerous obsession. 

SHL: Spring Water and Healing Open Wounds

The romance in SHL is like "spring water"; it's warm, gentle, nurturing. It breaks through the boundary between individuals to bring the couple closer to each other, taking them back to a utopia of their childhood dream, away from social pressure and responsibility. The theme central to their relationship is “salvation”: how love is able to bring people back to integrity.

Both drama wkx and drama zzs have lots of regret about their past sins and wrongdoings. Four Seasons Manor is essentially a metaphor for purity, acceptance and the safety of childhood home. How to make drama wkx open up and accept this safe harbor as his home is one of the most significant plot-lines of the show.

SHL couple is way more emotionally vulnerable and expressive. A significant part of SHL arc is healing the wounds in an open and honest way. They cuddle and confide in each other way more often, talk about their shameful past and even cry about their regrets in front of one another, which is very rare among MXTX/Priest works.

The heat of the relationship sometimes gets too hot and even burns; in other words, there are constant miscommunications, conflicts and misunderstandings in the relationship. However, they can never let each other go, because it's the only source of warmth left for them in their hopeless lives filled with regrets and guilt.

Similarities and Differences

*Note that this is not a SHL/TYK comparison. TYK is kind of an “unorthodox” priest novel; you will know what I mean if you have read 3+ of her works. 

Relationship Dynamic & Narrative:  

In MXTX’s works, the concept of “romance” itself is divined; and the characters are illustration of the ideal of “undying love”. People are made for one another, to complete one another. Her works use colorful symbolism (silver butterflies, the emperor’s smile, the 3 thousand lanterns, etc.) to depict this romanticized ideal of love. 

For MXTX, the romanticization of “destined love” is one of the most recurring themes of her novels. Therefore, the readers look at their relationship through rose-color glasses. Obsession is usually framed in a jolly & romantic light, and doesn’t feature much tension or stress, and has less negative or unhealthy undertone. 

In most of priest’s works and SHL, soulmates are not born but made, so they have to figure out how their relationship works step by step. Therefore the narrative is less of a “rosy picture”. 

Priest has a habit of using derogatory terms to describe relationships that are mostly healthy, but somewhat “bloody” and edgy, full of excessive passion and obsession. The most common phrase is “爱生忧怖”, a Buddhist term meaning “love results in worry and fear”. 

SHL obviously has to be more subtle in expressing love. That said, drama WenZhou are way more emotionally vulnerable and expressive than their novel counterparts, as well as most Priest & MXTX characters. They have a dramatic falling out once in a while, even towards the end. They barely fit the Chinese definition of Zhiji (to know me/to understand one another), but are “lovers” who are buried deep in their passion instead. 

Past, Future and Evolvement: 

In SHL, characters are encouraged to treasure past impressions that are thrown in figurative “wrappings”, whose luster is derived from age-old experiences (Psychological Types, Carl Jung). In other words, they are encouraged to root their love in a shared past, a Utopia of innocence. 

The contrast between The Defective and Word of Honor is very interesting to observe. Both involve long separation, and the suffering and personality changes hat comes from it.   SHL narrative frames their innocent childhood as something to cling to and return to. Drama WKX is encouraged to accept his identity as Four Seasons Manor disciple because it was part of his childhood past. This is a significant part of drama WenZhou relationship.

In The Defective, the narrative doesn't encourage the couple to dwell on the past that much. On the contrary, the all-knowing AI explicitly discouraged the MC from “comparing past to present”. They are advised to accept changes, however painful it might be, and build a better, more equal dynamic out of it, evolving from one-sided pandering to fighting side-by-side.  

In Priest’s novels, the characters rarely return to something in the past, but look into the future. Change is usually framed as inherently beneficial, albeit usually painful and rocky, the implication being that you need to constantly strive for something better.  

Sha Po Lang is a good example of this, with Gu Yun’s changing attitude towards Chang Geng after he as he matures, gradually showing his intelligence in politics. CG starts referring to GY as Zixi instead of YiFu is also a sign of this change---to see him as equal rather than a parental figure & protector.

The Defective is even more obvious in this regard, with both parties uncomfortable with the change initially, but gradually adjusting to the changes during their 16-year separation. The ML also stops calling MC by his surname “Lin”, as a sign of viewing him as equal. 

In MXTX’s works, change in personality or relationship dynamic is neither framed as painful or good. It just happens. It’s a natural flow that take place when it does. Their relationships are rarely challenged by change. They are objectively at a better place compared to their past, but it’s merely the result of a series of events rather than a deliberate choice or struggle.  

WangXian’s relationship naturally changes over time after WWX’s rebirth, but neither of them really struggles with the change. 

Xie Lian doesn’t even recognize Hua Cheng as the someone from his past, so they start out as friends getting to know each other. 

Salvation and Changing one another: 

Priest herself stated in an interview that she doesn’t believe in the concept of salvation, since people have the inner capacity to be their own savior. Therefore, priest characters usually don’t actively try to change their partner’s morals or personality. Some might be willingly influenced by their partner, but there’s rarely an element of moral condemnation. Even when there is a conflict between different values, the options are 1) to reconcile them by choosing the middle ground 2) to maintain their independence and tackle it with nuance 3) to break up.

On surface level, Mo Du/Silent Reading is about Luo Wenzhou being Fei Du’s salvation. However, as LWZ pointed out himself, Fei Du would’ve been a good person at heart with or without his influence. 

In The Defective, when Lu Bixing mistakenly thought Lin Jingheng stayed in the Eighth Galaxy against his own wishes because of their relationship, and that their priorities are irreconcilable, he even thought about breaking up. Of course he was not serious about it, but this showcased that he would never try to change LJH’s convictions. 

In SHL, however, the concept of salvation is central to the theme. Some find it strange that SHL make drama zzs the more “moral” one of the two, despite his action being more objectively questionable. In fact, the only reason he get framed as more “moral” is that he admitted his fault sooner, and therefore could guide drama wkx’s path back to salvation: to recognize the goodness in people, make peace with external world, to clear his name in Jianghu, and to follow due process with his revenge plan to avoid collateral damages. 

“I tried to change you, but you end up changing me”, said drama ZZS. This relationship dynamic is never present in any of priest’s works I’ve read. Priest characters don’t *try* to change one another. 

Does MXTX believe in salvation? Hard to tell. One could argue that Hua Cheng would have be way more amoral and even immoral if it hadn’t been for XL. This is complicated and is a topic for another time.

However, it is certain that MXTX MCs don’t condemn each other morally. “The orthodox one defending their unorthodox partner in front of the world” is a common wuxia trope, but the way MXTX novels approach it is very different from SHL. 

HuaLian never had a serious falling out about being on different sides. Even when they disagree, they respect each other and love each other exactly the way they are. Hua Cheng didn’t approve of Xie Lian saving Mu Qing, but he didn’t interfere with Xie Lian’s decision. Xie Lian feels responsible for helping Shi Qingxuan in Blackwater arc, but he is perfectly fine with HC helping He Xuan keep secrets. In several cases where they have different values, they are able to make it work with ease.

LWJ never *morally* condemned WWX for his action, and never once objected to WWX practicing demonic cultivation after his rebirth. In fact, LWJ never objected to WWX’s morals; in their previous life he was worried about his safety, and struggled with what to do about certain situations due to his family background, but difference in morality is not an issue for them. 

The “righteous” one does not feel the need to guide their unorthodox partner or to be their salvation with regards to integrity. 

*The similarity & differences part is a bit messy and some points are not fleshed-out. Sorry about that. 

**I don’t claim to have the right interpretation. The lens by which we see different styles of romance is ultimately subjective.