June Aquarian

random blog / she/her / bored as hell

[bylerse10]

FULL video of WSQK Should I Stay or Should I Go glitch

[j-aquarian]

Aaa I freaked out it was so good.

[j-aquarian]

I missed out on people talking about the sync and now I keep wondering what this synched with, but can't be bothered to look it up. This was the most outstanding moment of the whole WSQK run that I caught and barely anyone's talked about it.

[j-aquarian]

I've kinda lost steam at this point, but I'm still reading the tag.

I have the same birthday as the Duffers, apparently.

[sharigax]

My toxic fandom take is that I think that it's awful how much we can talk to creators and get answers from them word of god style. We should be out here in a godless place rooting for scraps of lore in the media like truffle pigs out in the fields

[narrativelogicofbyler]

oh this shot, it’s criminally under-discussed. the scene is textbook visual propaganda, tight framing, rigid posture, gender-coded costuming, the whole thing choreographed like a brochure for heteronormativity. the shot practically yells “forced conformity” and gender roles in neon. -this is what normal looks like, now smile- and in a show that’s been screaming “forced conforming is what’s killing the kids, that’s the real monster,” how are people genuinely convinced this is endgame? it’s not just ironic, it actively breaks the narrative. the pairing feels like a gold star for playing normal, not a reflection of survival or growth. it’s emotionally dishonest. it unravels everything the story pretends to stand for. it’s not a resolution, it’s a surrender.

[j-aquarian]

Also, I always connected this to the scene where El looks at the Wheelers' family photos and says Nancy is pretty, then she puts on Nancy's clothes and calls herself pretty, and Mike is there, so this is kinda like... their sibling photo?? I don't mean in a weird way, just that they were showing from the start how El and Mike were meant to be something different to each other than what they became.

[upsidedownlurker]

Suspicious details in Will's frame from Episode 8 (conformitygate)

Will is listed as a Magic-User, but is specified as something very unexpected...

AN ILLUSIONIST!

According to the Dungeons & Dragons wiki, "[the Illusionist's magic] dazzles the senses and tricks the mind. [Their] magic is subtle, but the illusions [they] craft make the impossible seem real."

Will himself said that Vecna's vision "felt so real". Perhaps they are more similar than we think. Especially considering the following:

Will's magical abilities are shown to be extremely powerful in Episode 4, Sorcerer. Right off the bat, he is able to kill three Demogorgons instantly with almost no side effects. THAT'S INSANE. Now, he apparently did this by siphoning Vecna's abilities. But remember, Will's powers are "innate"...

If Will's own abilities are that powerful, he could easily create illusions on-par with Vecna. Perhaps Will can even do things Vecna wants; build the world Vecna wants. "We are going to do such beautiful things together, William."

Next!

Will's patron deity is "Ender Everspell". I found zero information related to this name, so it was made-up. Now, read that name again.

ENDER EVERSPELL. ENDER OF THE FOREVER SPELL.

In the final scene of the finale, Mike says that "a lone hero remains: Will The Wise", who is their "only hope". Will is the only one who has the power to END THE FOREVER SPELL that everyone is currently trapped under, who will end their "Never-Ending Story".

Next!

Here's the craziest one. This is absolutely fascinating: Will's place of origin; where he came from.

He apparently "hailed from beyond the Astral Plane, drawn to the Prime Plane by forces of imaginative power.”

In D&D, the Prime Plane is normal existence, basically Earth.

In D&D, the Astral Plane is a TRANSITIVE PLANE (like a bridge between dimensions). It is TIMELESS, so you do not age, hunger or thirst there. Sounds a lot like the Upside Down, huh? That would explain why it's stuck on Nov 6, and why Will survived a week in there without food or water.

So, let's agree that the Upside Down = the Astral Plane, and Earth = the Prime Plane.

Now, read that paragraph again. It says that Will originally came from beyond the Upside Down, and was drawn to Earth through forces of imaginative power.

Um.

That sounds like a fancy way of saying Will came from another dimension, after someone literally willed him into our world.

What.

Let me repeat that. It doesn't say he came from Earth, and was drawn to the Upside Down. It says he came from beyond the Upside Down and was drawn to Earth, specifically through forces of imaginative power.

WHAT.

This is basically the opposite of what we thought we knew about Will: just a regular boy who happened to be taken into the Upside Down by a monster. But this sentence suggests that when he was taken into the Upside Down, he was merely returned to the bridge he originally used to travel from another dimension to this one.

It doesn't say whether it was his own imaginative power that drew him to this dimension, or someone else's.

Will's imaginative power? Mike's? El's? Vecna's?

Who brought him here? How? Why?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN??????

...Guys. If there's no extra episode or at least a book where this shit gets explained, I'm actually gonna go crazy.

[lesbianfanfictionenthusiast]

this is a cry for help

[atsadi]

My Top 10 bits of #conformitygate evidence

My overall opinion on conformitygate is that the awfulness of Stranger Things 5.8 is so… complex that I genuinely think the more likely option is that it was deliberately bad than that it was accidentally bad.

I do also think S5 has been set up to be added to in a big meta move. If any show on the planet right now could pull this off, it would be Stranger Things, and it would be genuinely historic.

I see motive, means, and opportunity...

... and I also see giant, gaping plot holes.

So here we go:

The top 10 things that lead me to believe we're going to be getting more ST5 content, in rough order of how gravely they would have had to fuck up to do this by accident

Contents:

Clocks and time travel references that went nowhere

Spotlighting plot holes and inconsistencies

Sets and shots being changed

Mike Wheeler vs. A satisfying character arc

Missing songs

Signals (snowball) subplot dropping off

Fourth wall breaks (or, S5 already is meta)

False, alternate, twist, or meta endings

Whatzit? board game (x3)

X marks the spot: Will, the exotic matter, and Nancy's smoking gun

More detail (lots of detail) and examples of each of these below.

Seriously, fair warning, this is a looong post.

1. Clocks and time travel references that went nowhere

1a. Vecna’s association with clocks.

This association was built up incredibly strongly in S4 and reinforced in S5. I won’t list out all the points here because there are so many and it’s too obvious, but here is a handful of key examples:

Vecna’s grandfather clock chiming sound effect, and the presence of the floating grandfather clock in Vecna’s mind lair

multiple shots of young Henry standing in front of the grandfather clock, turning the hands anticlockwise—obvious implication of either turning back time or existing outside of time, especially given…

… Henry’s speech about time being a prison to baby!El in 4.7: “Where others saw order, I saw a straitjacket. A cruel, oppressive world dictated by made-up rules. Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades. […] Everyone is just waiting. Waiting for it all to be over. All while performing in a silly, terrible play, day after day”

the first thing we find out about Mr. Whatsit’s appearance is that he has a pocket watch (which comes with a ticking sound effect, in case we didn’t make the connection)

after Vecna begins his ritual with the kids in 5.7, the credits music is basically composed around a bassline of ominously ticking clocks (timed with the credits text, to make the ticking stand out even more)

(related to clocks but not Vecna specifically,) we got a seemingly random clock ticking sound effect several times this season, for example when El goes into the void in 5.2 and when she interrogates Akers in 5.3 (there were others, but I didn’t take note of them all)

1b. Time travel references

S5 was filled with references to time travel, including references to famous media featuring time travel.

From the incredibly strong connection to A Wrinkle in Time, to the solid connection to Back to the Future, to the casting of the star of famous time travel/time loop movie The Terminator (Linda Hamilton), to the passing mention of Slaughterhouse Five, this theme was everywhere.

If there was not (and was never going to be) any time travel in ST5, explain all these references to me, plus:

Holly literally calls Max’s adventures through Henry’s memories “time travel” (5.4)

In A Wrinkle in Time (referenced constantly in relation to Vecna and his plans), the tesseract is an object the characters use to travel through space-time—it’s also an object we saw Derek make in class in 5.3 (a cube within a cube)

When Mr. Clarke is teaching Erica’s class about wormholes, his line delivery is interesting—after Erica says wormholes allow matter to travel between galaxies or dimensions, Mr. Clarke says, “Just think of all the places mankind could go. Another galaxy. Another time, even” (the bit about time travel is sort of hidden by the fact that Erica (and the audience) are distracted by Mike and Lucas at the window—this is a move they've pulled in previous seasons: Mr. Clarke drops important foreshadowing information while our attention is pulled elsewhere)

Why the clocks and time travel references that went nowhere matter:

On its own, I guess I can excuse all the time travel references going nowhere. It’s... possible that was all… accidental, or coincidental. (Implausible and dumb, but not impossible.) But the “Vecna is obsessed with clocks and/or time” thing coming to nothing is inexcusable. Why belabour this connection to the point of near-silliness if his evil scheme has literally nothing to do with clocks and/or time? … And these two things both amounting to nothing??

2. Spotlighting plot holes and inconsistencies

We see several instances of the show shining a spotlight on its own plot holes or inconsistencies, both in-text and from a meta standpoint. I give four examples below.

Note that I am not talking about ‘lampshading’—or deliberately drawing attention to something potentially jarring, simply in order to get it over with and move on.

What I’m talking about here is more like leaning on the fourth wall—the show engaging subtly but directly with the audience by critiqueing its own content, while keeping plausible in-universe deniability.

With that in mind, if there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain the following to me.

2a. Milkshakes at Melvald’s

After Will made an objectively incorrect, easily disproven statement about him and his friends “biking to Melvald’s for malted milkshakes” in 5.7…

… why did the crew then go out of their way to highlight that Melvald’s is a general store in three separate scenes in 5.8?

First there’s a looong shot of it when Kay is storming the Radio Shack, then several shots of it in the MAC-Z arrest scene, then a looong (well-lit) shot of it in the epilogue.

Melvald’s is the general store where Joyce worked for 10 years, up to 1985 (S3), which we the audience have been inside several times since S1.

But Melvald’s used to be a diner that sold milkshakes in the ‘60s, before Will was born (or of biking age)…

… when Henry Creel was a teenager.

It even had a milkshake on the logo.

(I talked about this point a bit more in On anachronisms: milkshakes at Melvald's, and orange graduation gowns.)

With how much emphasis the Duffers put on how carefully they wrote Will’s coming out scene, I simply do not accept that this was a script error:

Matt Duffer: “I think we probably spent longer writing that scene than any other scene this year. We were very nervous about it. Obviously, we've been building up to that for a while. We took a long time working on that.”

2b. The “real” me

In 5.8, El tells Mike:

El: “You understand me. Better than anyone. You always have. From the day we met… you’ve seen me. The real me.”

Aside from the gross display of “tell, don’t show” in both the dialogue and the flashbacks in this scene, and after literally the whole season of El and Mike never being shown acting like a couple…

… El tells Mike that he:

Saw the real her, from the day they met, and

Has always understood her, better than anyone

Firstly, both of these points are objectively disprovable (I'll get to that in a second).

Secondly, you barely even need to recall the events of the show to question the first statement—the edit immediately does it for you.

When El tells Mike he’s always seen the real her, the literal first flashback shot they show is of El in a "normal girl" costume.

This isn’t an anti-M!leven point, it’s just a startling choice of all possible shots they could have chosen to indicate that Mike has ever understood who El really was.

The edit just… ruthlessly mocks the dialogue.

And perhaps that’s fair, given that in their fight in 4.3, El makes it explicitly clear to us and to Mike that he can never truly understand her and her experiences—and that he makes her feel even worse about herself. That entire conversation is just heartbreaking for El, and it was never resolved.

To add insult to injury, Mike repeatedly insists on calling her a superhero—when she so clearly just wants to be loved as a person. For who she is, not for her powers. The real her. (And the fact that Mike seeing El as a superhero makes him feel like shit about himself (4.8) just makes the whole thing even more dysfunctional.)

As for whether Mike understands El “better than anyone", here’s my take on two characters who are shown to understand El better than Mike and/or actually see the real El, beyond her powers:

Max, her best friend, who encouraged El to discover who she was outside of her relationships with men, gave her female role models (herself and Wonder Woman), and helped her express her own style and femininity after a lifetime of enforced androgyny Will, her brother, who saw and stuck by her during one of the worst, weakest times of her life (orphaned, stripped of her power, bullied cruelly), who knows what it's like to be different, and to worry about your place in the world, and to have an un-asked-for supernatural connection

Both Mike in his 4.9 monologue to El, and El in her 5.8 farewell to Mike, reference the day they met as the start of some sort of epic romance. But on the day they met, Mike wanted to get rid of El as soon as he could without getting busted for going out to search for Will in the night, by having his mom “send her back to Pennhurst [asylum] or wherever she comes from” (1.2).

Or, at least, he wants to get her out of the way until he finds out that bad people are after her… and she points out Will’s photograph… and he connects the dots.

In other words, he wants to get her out of the way until he finds out she might be useful. Later, he outright calls her a “weapon”.

All in all... it’s not a particularly honest or romantic farewell from El.

And again, the edit tells us that what El's saying is suspect, at best. Never mind the way the actors perform it so stiffly. Everything else we see in the scene is disagreeing with the dialogue.

2c. The painting

Will’s D&D painting was a major plot point in S4. The first shot we see of Will in the season, he’s painting it. We find out El thinks it’s for a girl he has a crush on, because he won’t let her see it. He brings it to the airport and it’s repeatedly pointed out. He brings it on their impromptu roadtrip (after Mike apologises for being an asshole to him the previous day).

Then he gives it to Mike, to assuage Mike’s fear that he is a useless nerd who his superpowered girlfriend has no need for.

Will hides his own love confession behind El’s name. He tells Mike that he’s the heart and leader of the party, and that Will El is reassured and strengthened by his her relationship with Mike, fears losing him, needs him… and always will need him.

Then Will breaks down crying, presumably at Mike’s obliviousness because he just sublimated his own feelings into a proxy love confession to try to make his best friend/crush and beloved sister happy together—

—and in doing so, lost an internal fight against his own belief that Mike does not value Will or Will’s love as much as he values El and El’s love.

(In 5.4, Vecna cites that moment of pain as a reason Will does not belong in the real world, but instead in Vecna’s world.)

Finn Wolfhard said in an interview that the van confession and painting scene was hard to film because Mike was so painfully oblivious:

Finn: “How is he this… clueless [scoffs] right now? What with the Will scene, in the car, I was like, what, how? I remember asking the Duffers, ‘Why—how—why would he not know this?’ And they were like, ‘Don’t worry, it’ll pay off. The end.’ And so I trust them.”

The payoff for this would be Mike finding out (and, if there is any screenwriting talent in the room, confronting and dealing with the implications of finding out) that:

El had nothing to do with the painting, and

Will loves him

(I talked about this more in On bravery and heroism: Mike, Holly, and the Heart)

Both of these facts would have pretty fundamental interpersonal consequences for all three characters involved—and El doesn’t even know this happened. Hell, given the Willel sibling relationship, the ‘payoff’ should also really require El to find out who the painting was for, and therefore about Will’s feelings for Mike.

In the next episode, Will quoted his own love confession to cajole Mike into giving his choking girlfriend a rousing speech, instead of just frantically repeating her name (though Mike does it with yet more superhero crap that visibly pisses El off to hear).

So it’s arguable, at best, that anyone other than Jonathan (and maaaybe Robin) is aware of Will’s actual feelings for Mike after 5.7—except perhaps as a past crush—

—but it’s inarguable that Mike does not know that the painting (and the accompanying love confession) was from Will, not El.

And then they shamelessly spotlighted this glaring plot hole and lack of payoff in 5.8 by having the painting clearly visible on epilogue!Mike’s wall, front and centre in the frame.

(And that’s in addition to the Funko Pop! released as part of the S5 promo merch that clearly considered the painting to be a defining feature of the character of Mike Wheeler. Not to mention the Funko Pop! of Mike dressed how Will painted him.)

So where the hell was the payoff for the painting, the confession, and the lie… and why the hell did they actively point out the lack of any payoff for this whatsoever in 5.8?

2d. The exotic matter

It was made incredibly obvious that the exotic matter had already been disturbed and resettled at least once before Nancy shot it in 5.5, from the fact that Jonathan and Nancy found the top of Hawkins Lab (a) pre-melted and (b) home to the corpses of three soldiers.

(They also note that there are no spores in the air, and that whatever happened must have been Vecna’s dark magic—which Dustin later refutes... but that's all we get on that, folks.)

And just in case you somehow missed these guys, they used a gross close-up of wall!soldier as a transition shot, and Nancy later says in the goo room that one of the soldiers downstairs had managed to cut through the door.

So what disturbed the exotic matter the first time? Did one of the soldiers do a Nancy and shoot it? And when did this happen? Presumably it was in the 18-month timeskip, after Vecna opened the gates in S4, when the military moved into the UD. So the military is aware of the exotic matter!

(The soldiers' helmets look contemporary to the 80s, maybe a little older. The button-up shirt and lack of camo print suggests an even earlier time period, like, 1940s, but it's a bit ambiguous.)

But what happened, exactly, and were there any… uh, consequences?

Because in 5.6, after Nancy shot the exotic matter, it sent out a double blast wave that made the entire wall of the wormhole ripple, and punched a hole right through it at the weak point where Steve’s Beamer had been embedded.

And if this ‘first disturbance’ is, as it appears to be now, a pointless plot hole, why did they call it out in the episode recap videos on YouTube?

They show a gruesome shot of one of the soldiers' corpses... why?

Why this shot, of all possible shots to include from that episode??

It’s the third shot in that video. It comes before we see Will, who just manifested superpowers.

What happened the first time the exotic matter was disturbed??

Why all the spotlit plot holes and inconsistencies matter:

This one almost doesn’t need explanation, but in short: if you knew that your show contained plot holes and inconsistencies, why in the hell would you go out of your way to point them out to the audience through in-text and metatexual editing?? The only reasonable answer has to be: because you want the audience to notice your plot holes and inconsistencies, for some sort of payoff… … and/or because they aren’t really plot holes and inconsistencies, they just have yet to pay off.

3. Sets and shots being changed

If there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain to me why dozens of people not only forgot how to do their jobs and maintain continuity, but actively injected continuity errors into final shots?

3a. Radio tower voltage dial changing colours

By now, a conformitygate classic.

This dial was an actual set piece, so for this to happen, they would have needed to procure or make it in two separate colours.

If it wasn’t deliberate, everyone involved in production would have had to miss that they were two different colours, from creation or procurement of the prop/set piece all the way through installation, rehearsals, and filming.

Someone had to swap them out.

And worse, both coloured dials are shown in the same episode—in 5.5, when Lucas is talking about pumping the dead Demo with electricity from the tower, there’s a flashback to Steve turning the dial in 5.1. So we know that this "inconsistency" also went past an editor or two.

3b. Mike Wheeler vanishing and reappearing

I absolutely did not spot this one myself, but I went back and checked after someone else pointed it out and, lo and behold, a magic (disappearing and reappearing) Mike!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but where the fuck did Mike go in that middle shot?

As with the radio tower dial, that is not an editing or VFX or minor continuity mistake, like someone’s arm or hair not being in the exact same position from shot to shot.

That is a whole-ass real-world human being—and one of the core cast members since the first season of the show—who straight up vanished and reappeared from shot to shot, which means they either:

momentarily forgot Finn was in this sequence, so accidentally filmed a shot without him while he was having a quick break and then, oopsie, kept that shot in the final cut, OR

intentionally kept Finn out of that shot for some reason…

3c. Wheeler basement door swapping sides

The door handle, uh, swaps sides?

(To phrase it another way… “it flipped!”)

Again, as with the radio tower dial, this is a set piece. The Wheeler house set(s), as far as I am aware, have just sat there on the studio lot for the last 10 years.

The décor in the basement is different, fine, but it's the same door... just flipped.

Why the sets and shots being changed matters:

This one is also fairly self-explanatory. The changes I gave examples of above are not mere continuity errors: they required effort to achieve. They were deliberate. But as of now we don't know why this was done. If no new content is incoming, then it was a bizarre waste of time. But if new content is coming, this could be a way of showing that we are perhaps in a false or reconstructed world, where some of the finer details have just slipped through the cracks...

4. Mike Wheeler vs. A satisfying character arc

If there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain to me why Mike Wheeler—one of the six OG main characters—was the only one who fell off the face of the earth after about 5.4...

... despite being obviously set up for a hero arc through foreshadowing and clear parallels with newly-promoted main character Holly and her (manifested) hero arc.

(I talk about this in more depth in On bravery and heroism: Mike, Holly, and the Heart)

4a. Mike the Brave Holly the Heroic

We see Mike telling Holly that he uses the character of “Mike the Brave” to help him when he’s feeling scared:

Mike: "I just imagine that he's at my side."

Mike separates himself from the character of Mike the Brave.

But Holly uses the character of “Holly the Heroic”—which Mike gives her in 5.1—very differently. First, the figurine becomes a little totem for her, with Holly weaving it onto her necklace and gripping it when she’s scared or upset.

And later, when Holly is in mortal danger, she actually becomes Holly the Heroic, both in dress and in actions. In 5.6, Max explicitly says that Holly is Holly the Heroic.

There’s a strong connection drawn between Mike and Holly, starting with their respective alter egos, and continuing through Holly’s adventures in Camazotz with Max. In 5.6, Max first says Holly is reminding her of Mike for stress pacing, then says, “You don’t remind me of your brother. You are your brother!” when Holly hares stubbornly off into danger.

Later, Max reminds Holly (and the audience) that she is a Wheeler, like Mike, like Nancy—and that heroism is not simply the ability to physically fight off a monster. According to Max, Holly’s heroism lies in her intelligence, bravery, conviction, and willingness to step up to help others.

However, as of 5.8, the only payoff for the Mike and Holly parallel is that Holly becomes a great leader, as the kids escape Henry’s prison.

Holly is what Mike should have been.

Mike is a main character, in theory. He needs an arc. But as of 5.8, Mike has had no unique plot points and no character arc in S5.

According to his parallels with Holly, Mike needs to stop separating himself from the character of Mike the Brave, and instead become Mike the Brave, like Holly became Holly the Heroic—become the leader guiding and inspiring the whole Party.

Become the Heart.

4b. Finn’s monologue? Finn carrying emotional weight?

A lesser point, since I haven't personally seen sources on these, but before S5 came out we were apparently told that Finn carried a lot of emotional weight this season, and that he had another “pizza dough freezer"-style epic monologue.

… where are they?

Mike had little to no emotional presence in S5 aside from his goodbye to El, and the only thing he did that could be squinted at and called a monologue is his “Where are they now?” epilogue lines… and that's a stretch.

Why Mike's lack of plot and Finn's lack of… presence matters:

On the Finn thing, either we were lied to, or we haven't yet seen whatever these clues were talking about. I hate it, but fine. But on the Mike thing… to so comprehensively lay the groundwork for his character arc and plot points, only to literally hand them off to his baby sister and give him absolutely nothing whatsoever to do but narrate the finale flash-forwards… is grossly incompetent. The setup was all there. It was all deliberate. We're missing the payoff.

5. Missing songs

If there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain to me why we're missing at least 10 songs that appear on official S5 albums.

5a. The WSQK vinyl

They released two vinyls for S5: Stranger Things Season 5 and Stranger Things: The WSQK Collection.

All the songs from Stranger Things Season 5 appear in the show, even as a brief gag (like Oh Yeah by Yello, which plays when Dustin desecrates the Beamer).

But as many other people have pointed out, of the 10 songs on Stranger Things: The WSQK Collection, only two were played in the show:

I Think We're Alone Now by Tiffany (Holly’s song)

Upside Down by Diana Ross (secret radio message song)

(Another Brick in the Wall, Pt. 2 by Pink Floyd is… referenced, in the Pink Floyd - The Wall movie poster that’s on the wall in the WSQK basement, the poster in epilogue!Mike's dorm, and possibly in the first shot of the epilogue in 5.8, but the song itself doesn't appear.)

I Think We're Alone Now actually appears on both vinyls, which is weird in its own way.

Both it and Upside Down were used very obviously (diagetically) in the show, so it's actually weird that Upside Down, easily the most pointed use of music in the season, didn't appear on the S5 vinyl (with the other diagetic songs, like Rockin' Robin, Fernando, Human Cannonball)…

… but instead only appeared on the WSQK vinyl… with a bunch of songs that didn't feature in the season?

Again, as with the previous point about spotlighting inconsistencies, this oddity feels like it's drawing attention to itself.

5b. The OST

There are at least two songs on the S5 original soundtrack (OST) that do not, to the best of my knowledge, appear in the show: We’re Friends, Good Friends, and End Credits.

We’re Friends, Good Friends is a beautiful synthy track based on “Friendship” from S1 OST.

It starts with a humming, emotional charge and builds to a swooping midpoint crescendo (at around 55 seconds) that sounds like the backdrop to a major feel-good moment (here's hoping for either a love confession or a big damn kiss!).

It’s quite a distinctive track; and it doesn’t make an appearance in S5. (If it does, and I’ve somehow managed to miss it, someone please enlighten me!).

The title is most obviously a callback to Robin’s line to Will in 5.2 (but is not the music playing in that scene):

Robin: “Vickie, she's a candy striper. She’s my friend. We're friends, good friends. But, uh… The thing is, some people might not understand our friendship.”

The “joke", such as it is, is that Robin and Vickie are of course not just “good friends", but rather girlfriends.

Meaning the song title is... quite literally queer coded.

(It may also call back to Mike and Will’s “Friends. Best friends” (which itself is calling back to the Rink O Mania fight, when Mike told Will, “We’re friends, we’re friends”, and Will rebutted with a, “Well we used to be best friends”.))

Meanwhile, End Credits is exactly what it sounds like: a triumphant, rocking sort of song, an epic version of one of the show's major musical themes: “Kids" (S1 OST), later adapted to “Teens” (S4 OST).

But it does not appear in the end credits of any of the episodes: 5.1 plays Upside Down by Diana Ross, 5.2 plays Mr. Sandman by The Chordettes, 5.3 plays I Think We're Alone Now by Tiffany. 5.4 to 5.6 play instrumental songs I can’t identify (but I’m sure someone else has), 5.7 plays an ominous instrumental under ominously ticking clocks….

… and 5.8 plays Heroes by David Bowie, which fades into a rather sombre remix of the title theme (S1 OST).

None of them come close to the punchy, triumphant song on the OST called End Credits.

Why the missing songs matter:

I mean, just, why include these songs in official season albums, or buy them or, in the case of the OST, compose and record and name them if they don’t appear in the show and/or have no actual importance? Musical references have been important in the show since its beginning… so bypassing the vinyl songs seems to be a clear signal of something being missing. This is even more noticeable since (1) one of the vinyls does have all its songs pay off, making the other one stand out in contrast, and (2) two of the songs on the WSQK pay off—in a big, unmissable way—making it even more obvious how many of them do not feature in the show. And the inclusion of at least two OST songs that don’t actually appear in the show is even more baffling to me, not least because We’re Friends, Good Friends is beautiful and genuinely my favourite song on the album (next to Will the Wizard, for obvious reasons), and End Credits is also a phenomenal song… which does not appear in any of the S5 end credits…!? ... Implying, of course, that we haven't yet seen the end credits.

7. Signals (snowball) subplot dropping off

If there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain to me why the “signals" subplot between Robin and Will, radio and hive mind, superpowers and sexuality, was so well-developed in 5.1 to 5.5…

… and then dropped like a rock before its final payoff.

I talked about this (extensively) in On "signals": radio, hive mind, and romance, but will recap here:

In Volume 1, Will’s entire plotline revolves around a very clear connection that’s drawn between three different forms of intentional communication: radio signals, hive mind signals, and romantic signals. This is done using terminology, character context, in-world analogy, and explicit plot points.

The connections are particularly well-established between radio and hive mind signals, and hive mind and romantic signals.

This thematic structure means that once Will has “mastered” one type of signal (hive mind), he should be able to “master” another (romantic signals).

Mastering the hive mind looked like transmitting signals instead of just receiving them—taking control. The romantic equivalent would be something like flirting instead of just waiting to be flirted with, asking someone on a date, or (on the more extreme end) confessing your love without waiting for a confession.

For Will, the recipient of any romantic signals he sends out would obviously be Mike—and he does begin to do this, with his flirty body language and playful little shove to Mike’s chest in 5.4.

So we’re working with two separate—but related—plot points, only one of which was addressed by Will accepting his sexuality in 5.4 (and coming out in 5.7):

Will's sexuality

Will's feelings for Mike

Paralleling these two separate—but related—plot points are Robin’s two bouts of advice and autobiography:

Tammy in the tunnels

Vickie in the hospital

Robin’s advice and story about Tammy is critical for Will’s self-acceptance and very literal empowerment.

But her advice and story about Vickie plays no part in that plotline—the “snowball” scene is very explicitly about finding gay love.

Meaning… as of 5.8, the snowball scene has no payoff.

Furthermore, in 5.4 Vecna didn’t just use Will’s queerness against him—he specifically used his feelings for Mike against him. Meaning Will is still vulnerable to Vecna, because he hasn’t resolved his feelings for Mike (whether by reciprocation or by a let-down).

And worse still: despite the fact that we’re told that Will is empowered by his love (for Mike, his mom, and his brother), he has not actually attempted any sort of romantic relationship with Mike.

Why the dropped "signals" narrative structure matters:

Yes, this could just be bad writing… but it would have to be a sudden shift to bad writing! Up until about 5.5, it was great writing! And it matters because this storyline went out of its way to promise something… which it didn’t deliver. We got the payoff for the radio/hive mind/sexuality connection… … but not for the radio/hive mind/romance connection. This dropped plot also had a material impact on the story we did get. It’s (one of the reasons why) Will’s coming out scene felt forced and pointless—this underlying “signals” structure told us that even though he accepted his queerness and came out to the group, Will is still vulnerable to Vecna because he hasn’t resolved his feelings for Mike. But… luckily… apparently... Vecna never planned to use Will’s sexuality or secret love against him in the first place. Will’s self-acceptance earned him powers (and one of the highest rated ST episodes) but his coming out achieved nothing (except the lowest rated ST episode). Dropping this narrative matters because it meant that that entire plotline only half paid off. The romantic aspect (snowballs) had no relevance whatsoever to the plot. This is bad, unsatisfying writing because it set but then did not meet its own criteria. And to add further insult, the path to a satisfying conclusion to this plotline was basically handed to us: Mike needed to at minimum find out about Will’s feelings and, ideally, reciprocate them and give love-powered Will a power boost.

7. Fourth wall breaks (or, S5 already is meta)

People have cited probably dozens of shots in S5 as fourth wall breaks. I am sceptical of many if not most of these, which I think are just front-facing shots and/or are just up for interpretation…

… but I do think we had some indisputable fourth wall breaks in S5.

Here are two big ones.

7a. Henry!Vecna looking into the camera

At the end of 5.7, when the children are all chanting “back to the light”, Henry!Vecna stares and smirks literally right into the camera.

It's a sustained shot, lasting around six seconds. It's also an unambiguous break in the fourth wall.

Vecna is looking at you 🫵

… but why?

7b. Steve’s death fake-out

In 5.8, when Steve falls off the radio tower, there’s a glaringly obvious cut to black, after the shot seems to clearly establish that nobody is in range to catch him.

But then the screen goes black for about seven seconds… with some weird clanking noises…

… and we come back at a completely different camera angle to find that Jonathan has (teleported over there and luckily!) grabbed Steve’s arm.

I see this as a clear fourth wall break for three intertwined reasons.

Firstly, Steve was the undisputed “favourite” character to die, and has been for a while (him or Jonathan, I guess, but Steve’s death would hit harder at this point). In 5.7 he and Dustin literally traded the lines, “You die, I die”, priming the audience to expect one or both of them to, uh… die. (Even that dialogue was a subtle nudge at the fourth wall, stoking audience expectations or fears.)

Secondly, seven seconds of a blank screen is so incredibly long that you have ample time while watching to contemplate how jarringly long it is—jolting you right out of the narrative.

Which brings me to…

Thirdly, the cut to black after Steve falls is so obnoxiously obvious, and the shots on either side of it are so spatially incompatible and non-continuously composed that I can’t read this as anything other than a spotlighted deus ex machina.

The editors saved Steve’s life, then winked at us and said, “You thought he was a goner, didn’t you?”

Doing a clear death fake-out with editing trickery—on a character all but earmarked to die by the narrative—is, as far as I’m concerned, a direct shot at the audience and our expectations.

Why the fourth wall breaks matter:

Firstly, why have that incredibly obvious fourth wall-breaking shot with Henry!Vecna for literally no payoff? And secondly, if you must do a fake-out Steve death, why make it so obnoxious, and why stop with just an almost-silly near-death moment… with no payoff whatsoever? The payoff for a fourth wall-tapping narrative beat like this (if there is indeed any screenwriting talent in the room) would be that it is later subverted when there is a twist death—Steve the obvious candidate is saved, but Jonathan, or Nancy, or Robin, or literally anyone dies in a way we did not anticipate, maximising the shock of it. (El’s painfully foreseeable suicide absolutely does not count.) The fourth wall breaks matter because they should serve a purpose and, as far as we know, they do not.

8. False, alternate, twist, or meta endings

If there was not (and was never going to be) any additional S5 content, explain to me why there are so many textual references to (and examples of!) false or fake-out endings.

There are loads of examples of S5 referencing media with false, alternate, twist, or meta endings, which many, many other people on here have noted. A lot of them were on the S4 inspiration board, so we can be very confident they were intentional references.

In addition to references to other media, the show itself contains at least two examples of false endings and major plot twists—in S5, even.

The purpose of all this should be to foreshadow a false, alternate, twist, or meta ending to the audience.

8a. So many media references

Because so many other people have covered this, I'm not going any further down this particular rabbit hole than giving two examples.

The first is Little Shop of Horrors:

seen in a poster in Will’s room in S4

famously filmed a cop-out alternate “happy” ending in response to test audiences’ critique of the original Broadway ending—where the monsters win and “attack” the audience…

The second example is Prince’s Purple Rain - a song about love in the apocalypse, which had a secret ending message revealed if you played the record backwards… you nerd.

6b. Game with a false ending

In 5.3, we’re clearly shown that Derek is playing Ghosts ‘n Goblins:

The player controls a knight who must defeat various monsters to rescue a princess—who has been kidnapped by the king of Demon World. Ghosts ‘n Goblins is often cited as one of the most difficult games of all time: after defeating the final boss, the player must then replay the entire game on a higher difficulty level to reach the genuine final ending.

(I went into more detail about this in On unreliable narration: possession, the fourth wall, and you 🫵)

(And note that the first shot we get of the game is ‘full-screen’, as if we ourselves are playing it... another brush against the fourth wall.)

This made me think of a different post I saw about the pointlessness of Holly’s ultimately futile "escape from Camazotz" plot—especially since a shocking amount of time was spent on her in lieu of the original cast (particularly Mike, see point 4a above).

But what if that escape from a mind prison was a blueprint, “easy mode”, or Act I…

… setting us up for Act II, which ups the stakes: now everyone needs to escape Vecna’s mind prison.

Hard mode.

6c. D&D fake-outs

In the epilogue in 5.8, Mike messes with the Party while they play D&D, just like he did in S1:

In 1.1, he fakes out that they’re facing an army of troglodytes… but it’s actually the Demogorgon!

In 5.8, he fakes out that the summoning incantation did nothing… but there was just a delay!

These scenes are mirrored down to the shot composition. The beats of both false endings are almost exactly the same.

(I went into more detail about this in On unreliable narration: possession, the fourth wall, and you 🫵)

6d. A play fake-out

In 5.8, we know the play in the 1969 memory in Henry's mind is meant to be Oklahoma!, because Max (and we) saw Joyce's flyer for it in several different shots in 5.4 (a scene we were reminded of immediately before Max and the others went onstage).

I don’t think any play could more obviously not be Oklahoma! than what Max leads El and Kali through—with its dark lighting, jagged purple set, creepy chanting, writhing dancing, and the ensemble in animal skull masks and black cloaks.

Even viewers who know nothing about The First Shadow could have picked up on this discrepancy, or at least been a bit… confused.

For those of us a little more in the know, this is a reference to Joyce’s subplot in the play which involved putting on a show called Dark of the Moon…

… but telling everyone it was a different, classic (boring) show to dazzle them, or shock them, or something something bold and memorable when the real play was revealed.

Why all the false endings matter:

In short? Foreshadowing. Currently, empty foreshadowing.

9. Whatzit? board game (x3)

A comparatively minor point, but if the plot is all wrapped up and Vecna / Henry / One / Mr. Whatsit is truly dead and defeated…

… why does the (pointedly named) Whatzit? board game appear in both Hopper's cabin (where El’s bathtub used to be) and Mike's basement (behind Will, and later Derek)…

… also calling back to when it fell on Holly when she was being attacked by the Demogorgon in 5.2 (indicating Mr. Whatsit's responsibility)?

(Also note that Vecna called himself Mr. Whatsit—we know Holly didn’t name him that because the other kids also called him that independently (Derek and Debbie in 5.4).)

Why the Whatzit? appearances matter:

This isn't necessarily a reason to believe more content is incoming, but it's certainly a reason to believe in conformitygate. The reference—to Vecna and his plans—is clear and deliberate, even if the relevance is open to some interpretation.

10. X marks the spot: Will, the exotic matter, and Nancy's smoking gun

At the end of 5.5, two significant things happen that seemed to bode very ill… but actually amounted to very little:

Will getting trapped in Vecna's (?) mind, and

Nancy shooting the exotic matter

Nancy's shot was the climax of 5.5, and was framed as a massive deal that would kill “everyone"—the opening shot in 5.6 focuses on her literal smoking gun (a well-established metaphor for indirect proof of guilt of a crime).

And in fact, these two things that go wrong near-simultaneously—Will’s capture and the exotic matter shooting—are later linked together again by one of the most (if not the most!) on-the-nose shots we've seen this season.

In 5.7, Dustin draws a diagram of the bridge/wormhole on the glass of the WSQK recording booth, annotated with an H for Hawkins, an A for the Abyss, an X for the Upside Down (?), and a central circle for the exotic matter.

Dustin: “[The bridge] is wildly unstable, but held together by exotic matter—which we found dead centre, right above the lab.”

Later, we are shown Will overlaid with that diagram—twice!—with the exotic matter over his head (mind?) and the X over his heart. This (repeated!) shot is so pointed that anyone with a reasonably well-functioning brain would notice its apparent significance…

… but it ends up going nowhere.

(I talked about that shot more, including “X/M marks the spot", in On bravery and heroism: Mike, Holly, and the Heart.)

That shot also connects Will(’s heart) with the rifts in the Upside Down, via the big red X—the beginning of 5.8 is the first time, I believe, we ever see the rifts from above, to see that they form a big X through Hawkins.

(Also consider the red X on Max's map for Holly!)

Another thing that goes wrong in 5.5 is the ol’ conformitygate classic, point 3a on this list: the radio tower voltage dial changing colours (to red!)… closely connected to the plot point of “Will attacking Vecna” going wrong…

Why this 5.5 connection matters:

I personally felt that 5.5 was more or less a coherent continuation of Volume 1 (in terms of the storyline and how the characters (especially Mike) were behaving). But shit definitely started to get weird in 5.6, right after these two intertwined plot points—Will’s attack on Vecna and Nancy’s attack on the exotic matter—both go wrong at the end of 5.5. But neither of those events had any major impact—El and Hopper could have found another way out of the Upside Down, and surely Vecna had other ways to find Max (including, but not limited to, applying basic logic). So why was this episode such a turning point?

Bonus round:

Any and all real-world clues that we are missing content, such as:

the “For Will” mixtape that was pushed heavily in merch, but never appeared in the show

BTS shots of Noah filming the mind fight with Vecna in 5.5 inside a circular camera track that was never actually used

other BTS shots we haven't seen used, such as Noah in a stunt harness and at Rink O Mania, both in the S4 orange plaid shirt; (possibly Will with an earring and “Harrington hair” in the 5.8 epilogue); Will in his 5.1 school outfit (and Miwi actors in their basement outfits) set up in a camera array for creating digital doubles for VFX

the fragmented “love——” message the writers put out on Twitter

… and plenty more which others on here have discussed at length.

Why real-world clues matter:

If the showrunners do have something up their sleeve, it's certainly feasible that they've managed to keep it pretty well under wraps. We saw a similar manoeuvre pulled for Spider-Man: No Way Home, which included the actors involved lying through their teeth about their involvement. ... but something will always slip through the cracks. Each of the real-world clues we've received on their own mean, at minimum, that there is something we aren't seeing. Taken all together, they hint at a whole lot that we are not seeing.

So basically, against my will… and at least 50% of my better judgement… ...I remain on the bus 🙃

[donbeavers]

God I just need to vent here for a second. The thing is, I get what the duffers are trying to do, I really really get it. They are trying to prove a point about perception, biases, toying with cliches & subverting expections. Very on theme for the show.

But honestly at this certain point it almost feels like they are more just edging on and psychologically torturing the people who already clocked that that's what they're doing, the one's who analyze the show and everything around it precisely because they are already looking behind the curtain.

And the longer they keep pushing this trolling and ragebaiting they're doing, the more my patience is running thin. Like it was funny for the first couple of days, and I even get why they didn't drop it on the 7th, because that would have been too unsurprising, too many people from the GA would have still expected it.

But me personally, I'm tired of it now. I just want the good finale, the satisfiyng one that was promised to me. And I just feel like if this goes on for much longer I'm gonna stop caring about it, because all of this is just draining me emotionally.

And when we finally get the real finale, which I honestly believe we still will, and it is everything I wanted after I forced myself to stop caring about it? I feel like I won't be enjoying it the same way I would have if we had gotten it earlier, because the whole baiting thing and being kept waiting for so long just leaves a bitter taste behind.

Like, the GA has mostly already moved on. They don't care. And I feel like it is a bit of an injustice to the very core loyal fans who love the show for what it actually does to leave them hanging for so long just to prove a point to the GA. Especially when I'm sure most of them aren't gonna get the point of this whole stunt anyway.

Unless they wanna teach the fans who look behind the curtain some kind of lesson, too? Like, don't care so much about how a TV show that brought you so much comfort is gonna end, I guess?

I don't know maybe this is just a me problem, lol, I did not sleep that much so maybe that's the reason I feel so fed up with all of this right now.

[j-aquarian]

I agree it feels like it's taking too long, and I do wonder if maybe they thought it would take longer for people to figure things out.

Of course, I have to throw the obligatory maybe we're wrong bit here, and we're waiting for nothing.

I could see Netflix demanding it takes at least a month so they can get another subscription out of people, but I also think they should have made the wait more, idk, engaging. Or maybe they're trying and we're all just missing something, like there's some hint or code they've posted somewhere that no one's caught onto or found.

Idk. Maybe I should try watching vol. 2 again. See if anything different sticks out in retrospect.

Besides that, I'm kind of stuck with finding hints, since I don't have any social media besides Tumblr.

Like they could have kept the WSQK going, they could pretend it's because of popular demand or something, but subtly make it clear that something's up.

[considermeadream12]

The ENTIRETY of S5 is a play within a play - and the audience has been part of it for months (meta theory post)

Ok, I think I've cracked the code!!

I have been reading all of your theories during the past few days and there have been so many refreshing and interesting takes that made me engage on a whole new level with the show. I will tag a few accounts that I've been following because I love your theory-posts and would be really interested to hear your thoughts on this:

@atsadi @penguinchick07 @mixu @bylerswheel @runninguplenorahills @greenfiend @j-aquarian @thestrangestthing89

This is a gonna be a long-ass post, but I promise you that it's worth reading till the end! I also want to put out a quick trigger warning: the following theory is twisty - so be cautious if you have trouble with that.

There have been a lot of great posts about the epilogue paralleling "The Truman Show" and about Vecna possesing Mike / the main characters / Will. Well, I wanna go even further:

We as the audience are equally part of Vecnas curse.

I made several posts about the Stranger Things marketing aligning perfectly with conformitygate here and here.

@theearthisnotacoldeadplace also pointed out the parallel to the "Nightmare on Elm Street-"movie that started as a documentary and turned into a horror movie. I personally love that idea and haven't seen anybody talk about a certain aspect of it, that becomes impossible to unsee once you realise it:

The whole #conformitygate concept works, because the creators deliberately messed up details, characters, plotlines - subtly at first, than slowly building it up untill we reached the uncanny finale. Something felt off and it took most of us a few days to realise that Vecna was definitely messing with the characters (and us).

Well, here's the twist: This didn't only happen inside the show. The same is happening around it, during the presstour and marketing. The inconsistenties have been building up for a long time, but people haven't realised it yet. We've been living under Vecna's curse for months now.

Let me eloborate:

1. Setting the foundation

During promo, the cast and crew were hyping this season up like crazy. They have talked countless times about how emotional, dark and massive it was going to be. They said that the ending would be perfect and that people would be truly satisfied. They talked about the emotional table read numerous times, going into great detail about who cried the most. Our already high expectations got even higher.

2. Plotholes

First of all the obvious (many people have talked about this already, so I won't go into great detail here): There have been countless plotholes that have been directly pointed out by the Duffers THEMSELVES post-finale. Who in their right mind would do this, especially after promising to tie up every plotline perfectly?! Yeah right, no-one. Unless it was for a greater purpose.

At the same time the Duffers planted plotholes within the story during past seasons that people picked up on: Will's birthday, Holly's age, the particles in the upside-down. They never gave satifying answers to explain these and people accepted the mistakes or build theories around it (#Birthdaygate).

3. Leaks

As @chirpsythismorning pointed out in a very insightful post, the leaks of the epilogue are really suspicious. It's the final episode of Netflix' biggest show after all, wouldn't they be able to protect it better?! Same with the trailer being leaked hours before the initial drop. Made the audience feel very ahead of everything.

4. Official promotional content

This is where things get interesting. I unfortunately haven't followed the radio channel at all, so I will only focus on promotional content that was released on YouTube. Something that stands out to me is how much emphasis they put on merging the show with the real world (remind you of anything?) during marketing:

A) There were tons of videos including the fans into official promotional content:

On a sidenote: I wouldn't be suprised if the same actors who received a letter from Max in S4 would do this kind of video. Maybe the letters would never even get adressed again. Subtly implying that those were our letters all along.

B) During one of the first trailers we had a mix of impressions from the show with comments from the Duffers, as well as the actors:

C) The actors were reacting to their own scenes in costume, making it unclear if they were themselves or their characters:

But who is at the place of their TV?

It's us - they are watching the audience watching them from inside the TV.

D) During the presstour we have seen the actors giving interviews in sets from the show:

E) The characters are wearing merchandise from the WSQK-radio-station on the show - merchandise that is sold to the fans:

4. Documentary / Spin-Offs / BTS

I have seen some of you speculating that the documentary will act as a "trojan horse" for the final episode. I am huge fan and believer of this theory, but want to bring up a more fundamental question: Why even dropping a documentary in the first place? We have all the "Inside the episode" videos that should be enough BTS for now. Why not wait a few more months to milk the franchise again?

Well, because the documentary is part of the show - and so are the "Inside the episode" videos (as their title is LITERALLY suggesting). As I said in another post they start out normal and turn full on mockumentary in the end. It's hilarious to watch. But there is more to it, and it's been out there for a long time, existing right in front of our eyes:

I mean, look at this shit, it couldn't be any more obvious:

Re-entering the canon BETWEEN SEASONS with an animated series that LOOKS NOTHING LIKE AN 80s ANIMATED MOVIE? AFTER the show ended? And dropping the announcement OUT OF NOWHERE DURING S5 PROMO?!

How could we be so blind this entire time lmao?! From a marketing standpoint that makes zero sense. People were invested in S5 anyway at this point. The teaser is part of the mockumentary - it's part of S5, of the creators messing with us:

"Nothing you see here is real."

And it gets even bigger:

5. Interviews

Please stay with me on the Mockumentary-bus a bit longer: If we asume that the BTS-content of the show is not or only in parts authentic, we should also have a careful look on the interviews.

A) Ragebait and Inconsistencies

I think right now nobody is taken the Duffers serious anymore. People are annoyed because of their seemingly arrogant attitude and their unwillingness to give convincing answers in recent interviews. I think we all agree that they are ragebaiting us, because no director in their right mind would self-sabotage their career like that.

But they have been other inconsistensies: Remember when Finn said that "Byler wouldn't feel earned" when episode 1 was about to drop? Remember when Noah said that he could relate to Wills "unrequited feelings"? Remember when Gaten said that shipping Byler was "a funny concept" or something like that? All these interviews where sending the Bylertag into a whiplash and caused people to doubt the actor's motivation and integrity. But what if it was done on purpose to make people doubt them?

B) Post-Finale Interviews

The lack of interviews after the finale is one of the biggest proofs of conformitygate for me: Right now the actors should be touring Late-night-shows, reminiscing they big moments from the finale and discussing the experience of ending the show. But there is only radio silence. Apart from three apparences on Jimmy Fallon (Sadie, Jamie, Maya), there have been only pre-recorded interviews. And those Fallon-interviews have been suspicious:

Sadie pointing out that fan theories are sometimes right? Stating confidently that she believes El is dead when it is "up for interpretation"?

Jamie saying "the show is over right" in an ironic tone? The promo-video with the infamous "tomorrow it begins" line?

Maya pointing out Bylers enorme potential as a couple when that's not how the show ended officially?

Anybody who is assuming that this them "putting the Duffers in their place" clearly doesn't know how PR works. These interviews are scripted and pre-approved and look a lot like PR for future content. The interactions themselves almost seem like a sketch, with the actors still playing their mockumentary persona. Let's see if this also applies to interviews from the past.

C) Pre-Finale Interviews

While rewatching some of the cast's interviews I came across certain statements that seemed either unserious/out of character or almost forshadowing if you take conformitygate into consideration. To give a few examples:

Noah saying that he would've liked to kiss a girl on the show.

That interview with the core-four-boys when Caleb is saying "I had a different finale" (I saw a post about it on here the other day but can't find it anymore, so thanks for tagging me if you do come across it).

Finn saying jokingly "Dustin dies" when asked to spoil the ending in the spicy-wings-interview. (I hope he isn't right, but it would for sure be a twist.)

The cast saying that S3 wasn't important to the plot when they have been clearly a lot of parallels with S5 (scenes in the hospital, the meatflayer, people getting possesed).

Whatever that was:

Most of the interviews appear to be genuine, but it seems as if the cast is reusing certain themes (for some reason they continue to bring up Michael Jackson?) and potentially dropping hints/inconsistensies during the interviews (if this is the case there are probably hundreds of them, as they did a lot of interviews).

Even if all these inconsistencies are purely coincidental it leads us to mistrust them, as we can't tell apart their "mockumentary-persona" and their "real" persona anymore.

The audience under Vecna's curse

So where does all this leaves the audience at?

As Max suggests, we find ourselves with three options after watching the finale: Despair (people unhappy with the finale, in particular Bylers, nerds and members of marginalized groups), acceptance (big parts of the general audience), and escaping the narrative (conformitygate-truthers). Even though the show suggests the third option as the right one, there is only a tiny percentage of the people in the fandom seriously believing in conformitygate and an alternative ending. This is due to our experience with queerbaiting, and the phenomenon of big shows tanking their final episode/season. A lot of Bylers are rightfully hurt and therefor not willing to engage with the show any longer. The GA, although in parts underwhelmed by the finale, has either already lost interest and moved on, or is unwilling to look for clues. Conformity-gate-truthers are in consequence mirroring Joyce Byers in S1: Despite finding countless clues and having a gut-feeling about the fact that something feels off, they are the ones looking crazy. Because how could you believe in something when it's extremly unlikely to happen for a show of this skale?

On top of that the show and its marketing did they best to confuse people, making them lose trust in the consistency of plot lines and the integrity of both cast and crew. We feel betrayed. And that's when we accept our fate.

But the real horror is reserved for people who start questioning the narrative: they start finding more and more inconsistenties, to the point where they don't know who to trust anymore: The Duffers? Certainly not! The cast? Probably not. The show itself? Yes, but when did the inconsistenties began? The result is an intense feeling of unease and paranoia that makes us recontextulise everything we know about the show (sounds familiar?).

As fans we try to get ahead of the creators by predicting and analysing its narratives. But what if the creators are already three steps ahead, without us knowing?

Season 5 of Stranger Things is not just the ensemble of 8 (+X) episodes on Netflix. It's a social experiment, including the interviews, promo content, and us, the audience. We are part of season 5.

Season 5 actually started months before the first episode dropped, just as Vecna is infiltrating his victims' minds before giving them their first visions. He (the Duffers) knows this part of the fandom's biggest fear: Conformity, queerbaiting, getting disappointed. Now it is up to us to escape Camazotz.

Final thoughts

Despite being a huge fan of the theory and its execution (content, clues, consistency) I still hope that the Duffers will adress their queer audience and other marginalized groups (victims of abuse, women, POC,...) by the end of all this, as the whole concept has caused a lot of hurt. They should speak up about the blantant homophobia and misogyny in parts of the fandom and not just leave their critique of it on a meta-level.

I also see a risk of conformitygate being really triggering to certain people because it can make you feel like losing your mind. As it has such a subtle note of psychological horror, the audience is not able to prepare themselves, which is why I hope that the final episode(s) is/are dropping soon.

On a more positive note, this whole stunt will increase media literacy and will encourage people to interact with the show more critically. I also think that this meta-plottwist is a great comment on PR and parasocial-relationships, showing how easliy an audience can be manipulated by framing. It is also a love letter to nerds and critical thinking, as well as to people who find joy in analysing the show.

On a more personal note this whole twist made me realise how emotionally dependent I was on the show during these last few months, compromising my everyday life and relationships in order to focus on my hyperfixation (thanks adhd-brain!). If anything, this showed me that despite my love for Stranger Things and Byler, there is also the real world that I want to focus on more in the future. I still want to engage with the fandom but will likely reduce my time here in the next months to focus more on personal relationships and my mental and physical health. Right now I am enjoying the ride with the people still on the Byler-bus. We almost made it out of Camazotz, just hold on a little longer.

[j-aquarian]

This is great and informative!

Especially to someone like me whose only social media is Tumblr where I have to rely on getting info second hand a lot of the time, so I miss a lot of the interviews and other promo. I knew it was like this, but there's a lot here I hadn't actually seen before.

But the thing is, I'm not sure I have anything to add! This is pretty much in line with what I've been thinking and what I meant to say in that Truman Show post, that I think the promo is "part of the show", so to say.

But, maybe I'll add some side points I've been thinking about.

One of those is that a part of me worries this is going to become a trend in a bad way. Like when Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows got split into two movies and suddenly everybody had to do it. The Hunger Games didn't need four movies. The Hobbit didn't need to be a trilogy. It will be annoying if suddenly everyone wants to pull a Stranger Things and have their secret episodes or their ARGs even if they make no sense for the projects they're working on.

On the other hand, there are a few things that I think could be extremely valuable that could come out of this. One is that people might wake up a little to the fact that you can't blindly trust what someone says in an interview, says online, etc. Using fictional media to sort of "ethically" show how misinformation and fake coverage works could sort of force people to face these kinds of things and shake things up. I've seen good posts about this, I think even as a response to this same post I'm responding to, so I don't think I have to elaborate. For those interested, check the reblogs!

The second is that if there actually is more material coming, a better ending or something else, wouldn't they, by showing both versions, have acquired proof that the sort of sanitized, sponsor friendly version is worse than a genuine, good story, even when the story has elements one would otherwise not engage with? I know there's a lot of homophobia and hate in the world and even in this fandom, but I tend to think most people are probably neutral on the subject. Didn't we see this in Vol. 1 in fact, when even more casual fans suddenly began to root for Will and Mike to get together in the end? And how the love for Will in general just exploded overnight?

This shows to me that people do not mind queer characters and stories if they are good stories, whereas those same people, when they see the kind of performative, sterilized allyship some shows portray with a token gay character that seems to exist to be gay, would lean more on dislike because it doesn't feel genuine, it feels like they're being scolded, talked down to, being taught a lesson, showed a reminder, idk. Maybe even the I don't mind it but why do they have to be everywhere types. If they truly don't mind, then why are they bothered by it? Either they're lying about not minding, or there's something irritating about how those stories are being presented.

Think of the difference in people's reactions to Will's big moment in Sorcerer vs. The Bridge. Like night and day.

But then again, I think my experience of the world might be a bit exceptional. I'm pretty isolated, my parents have always been at the very least tolerant, and whatever intolerance they may have has always been out of ignorance rather than malice. I once had the shortest conversation about gay marriage with my dad, which went something along the lines of —

— I don't get why they're fussing about marriage, we have civil partnerships here.

— Oh, they're not legally the same. A civil partnership doesn't offer the same rights as marriage does.

— Oh. Well in that case.

And I still feel a kind of shock when I see actual homophobia in the wild, that people have such horribly strict views that they can't question their own opinions on things. Like I have cousins on my dad's side who are absolutely bigoted, and I wondered for a while how they ended up that way, until I realized my dad was also the black sheep of his family, the one who left the family business to strike out on his own, all that stuff. He's the exception.

My mom on the other hand is super into Asian dramas. She doesn't watch BL, but also The Untamed and Word of Honor are two of her favourites. She sent me a Wangxian edit just this morning.

These are the kinds of people who raised me. They're not perfect, but they're open-minded, I suppose.

What I mean to say is, I might be overestimating the general public here. I'm probably looking at things from inside this bubble I live in. But I truly do think, if it happens, this story could be so thought-provoking, attitude changing. To refer to my only good posts, the ones about the Truman Show, if I'm right, Will was essentially written out of the narrative after Shock Jock, like Sylvia and Truman's dad, and we immediately see the story goes to shit. People have and will pick up on that. I think the removal of their dynamic in Vol. 2 probably exists to highlight how much it hurts the story to deny them.

And I don't just mean on a personal level to the viewers, I mean this could open doors, pave the way for something better. Imagine Stranger Things giving one ending that showcases all these safe, boring conclusions that are in line with the kinds of endings where showrunners weren't perhaps allowed to portray certain things due to corporate interests, or they otherwise failed in execution, and then turning around to give a better ending that is possibly queer, risky, but true and fitting. This would be proof that the risk is worth it. That people will respond better to a good story, a bold story. Like, I'm not a huge fan of season 3, but I've always appreciated it's uniqueness. They tried to do something different with it, it wasn't really my cup of tea, but it's still cool that they did it. Look at how beautiful it looks!

— This is a great story, but the queer storyline might not align with our interests, we want to cater to a larger audience.

— Well, look at Stranger Things.

Isn't this a conversation that could happen now in some board room when a creator pitches their new show idea at Netflix or whatever, if there really is another ending coming? If they made the point, proved their point? They'd be out of excuses.

Then again, I don't know. Maybe the people wouldn't really react well at all. Maybe my bubble keeps me even more sheltered than I thought.

One final comment;

I've seen speculation about the 11th, or that the documentary on the 12th is a Trojan Horse, but there's also been talk of March 22nd. I hope it doesn't take that long, I feel like 11½ weeks is a long time to keep up the hype. Then again, I don't know what they have up their sleeves. I just think it's something.

Also, I've seen some comments about feelings of distress regarding this subject. I've had issues with anxiety and paranoia before, and I know how bad it can feel to be immersed in something like this, even though it's fiction. Whenever I feel like I'm spiraling over something, I like to think of Spock. No really, I haven't had a single full blown panic attack since I started to logic my way through them with... with Spock. Sounds stupid, I know, but effective. I also find that channeling the more conspiracy brained tendencies I might have towards fiction is good for me. I learn to not do that in real life. Maybe that won't work for everyone, but I guess I just wanted to offer my own experience in the hopes it helps someone. Take care of yourself, whoever you are reading this.

Anyway, thanks @considermeadream12 for tagging me, but I feel like I've strayed too far from your post now, this hardly feels like a reaction to it at all. Sorry, I hope I don't disappoint. I really do feel a bit like I accidentally made one good post that made me seem smarter than I actually am and have little else to contribute. Is this what impostor syndrome feels like?

I hope someone finds some value in this!

[deactivated-blog]

The Tale of Bad Finales and why is Stranger Things seemingly referencing them all

So I am a conformitygate truther all the way, and one thing I noticed now that I rewatched the finale is how it very well plays as a parody and or satire.

First, let's talk about the huge stage, not smoke made Mindflayer and Nancy being able to kill it so easily.

That whole scene read as Marvel scene, down to the T. No flashing out of character and their motivations, sacrifice of their arcs and seemingly no explanations whatsoever because you need to watch X, Y and Z spin offs.

The Milkvan scene paralleling Destiel? I can't find the source but it was apparently confirmed the Duffers were inspired by none other than Destiel which is why some saw the similar frames. That wasn't accidental, it was pretty much a dig at them.

The finale so bad it causes people to believe there's a secret episode? Thanks to all the Sherlock fans that feel the need to bring that up 24/7 we can check that off.

Some dialogue lines seemingly paralleling to the finale of Riverdale? Also not a coincidence.

The Duffers are deadess acting like the creators of GoT after the release but to give the GoT people credit they were at least trying to salvage their own careers, meanwhile the Duffers seem all too willing to point out their own plot holes in the show, in the press and practically advertise them on Times Square.

And then I thought about Finn saying the finale retcons Game of Thrones and how they go back. If we are to believe him, because I'll be brutally honest here, the cast and crew and marketing are as much a part of this as the Duffers are, things get interesting.

Because we also have Shawn talking about the finale that disappointed them and left a sour taste in their mouth and given all of this it seems clear they have studied all of them, downright referenced all of them as well ans actively made their finale as bad as it could be in terms of themes, characters and motivations.

The more I see the patterns of bad finales being referenced, of them running their mouths, the more I think they have to have something that retcons that.

I don't think is only their own finale they are trying to fix, or rather, their own show. I think, if we are right about the meta, this is as much a commentary on the industry as it will be on them and us.

I hope they play their cards right, I hope they do address important themes in the documentary and why they chose to take such a different route, because you just don't stumble on this kind of writing, is deliberate.

I do hope they can at least explain their thoughts, apologize for because they knew would this would do, while also giving us all the reasons they decided this was the right way to tell the story.

[j-aquarian]

Yes, yes! This is exactly what I was saying as well! It's like they studied bad endings just so they could do them all. The ultimate subversion would be for there to actually be a secret episode for once.

[j-aquarian]

My new theory is that Jamie's aerobics video is describing their marketing strategy. How'd it go, pull them in, push them out, telekinesis to the right, telekinesis to the left... and so on.

[thebestofmyrmidons]

Eternal Sunshine and predictions for Volume 4

I just rewatched ESOTSM and like many smart people on here have already pointed out, it's quite clear that both Will and Mike's memories of one another are being erased as season 5 progresses (I won't dig into this too much here). Mike and Will's outfits also parallel those of Joel and Clementine quite obviously. As I was rewatching ESOTSM, I noticed just how many parallels there are between the film and the show, so I'm just making a quick rambly post for those interested, and my predictions for Volume 4.

Mike and Joel

The similarities between these two characters is actually insane. Joel is portrayed as being very in love with Clementine but he has a very avoidant attachment style and trouble expressing his love. He can't tell her or anyone else the depth of his emotions, but we see him breakdown in his car after their breakup, lamenting his lost love for Clementine. In contrast, Clementine wears her heart on her sleeve (like Will) and craves emotional intimacy, even begs Joel for it, which causes a rift in their relationship, and leads to their eventual breakup.

The memory erasure procedure starts at their most recent memories of one another and ends at the beginning (so in reverse order). I think this ties into some of the WSQK clues about playing the record in reverse. The final tape that they play at the end of the film to resurrect their memories of one another might also have some kind of relation to the 'For Will' mixtape merch that we've seen.

We see that Joel is avoidant and afraid of emotional intimacy, and this is slowly explored via flashbacks that showcase his traumatic childhood memories that led to his abandonment issues. Clementine features in his memories (even though she wasn't there at the time), and we can see her try to heal baby Joel's wounds.

I actually think that Joel's childhood memories are already very similar to that childhood flashback we saw in Sorcerer from Will's POV. I think we'll be exploring some of Mike's childhood trauma in Volume 4 as well, as we've seen some BTS shots of the Miwi actors that we haven't seen yet on the show. I think this would be a beautiful way to show the audience why exactly Mike is so repressed - so far, we've only gotten hints via the Reagan Bush sign in front of the Wheeler's house, Ted/Karen's dysfunctional relationship, Ted's emotional absence and Nancy's wish to not be like her parents, and other smaller clues, but nothing too too obvious for those who aren't paying close attention.

However, unlike Clementine, Will has been a part of Mike's childhood almost from the very start, so he will feature in many of Mike's earliest memories. I'm interested to see how they will spin this - maybe both of them will be trapped in their respective memories together, and the only way to escape would be via honesty and communication.

I also think we'll be getting both basementgate and MWTFDYDgate flashbacks as part of the memory montage (but I think they'll be one and the same - a flashback to a point where Mike is giving Will signals in the basement in the 18-month time skip). This would parallel the happy memories that Joel is reliving during the erasure procedure.

Note: I do not love the idea of cheating Byler, but Joel was also in a relationship with Naomi (about to get married apparently) when he met and became enamoured with Clementine. Do what you want with this information.

Colour coding

We know that blue and yellow famously represent Mike and Will, and how their colours flip when they're in conflict. Something very similar is portrayed with Clementine in Eternal Sunshine.

Before she meets Joel, her hair is green and she's wearing her orange hoodie/coat. She is still herself, but not fully whole. However, Clementine has orange hair in all her happiest memories with Joel - her colour palette is fully orange, signifying how complete she feels when Joel and Clementine are together. When they erase her memory of him, her hair turns blue, and her whole colour palette is blue - her room, her clothes, everything. Dr. Mierzwiak also wears a bright blue tie, signifying that he has also lost a love, Mary.

Once her and Joel reconnect again in Montauk, Clementine puts her orange coat back on, signifying that their love is slowly coming alive again.

I'm hopeful we may see something similar happen for Will and Mike in Volume 4, since they're now both out of their typical blue and yellow colour palettes! I won't speculate too much as to how this will play out, but I can't imagine they'll abandon the yellow/blue imagery all of a sudden, since it's been so prominent over the past few seasons.

Should I Stay or Should I Go?

I don't know if anyone else spotted this, but this phrased is used a LOT in Eternal Sunshine. I'm starting to think this film was used as inspiration from as early as S1, as Stranger Things was initially pitched as 'Montauk', Mike's character was supposed to be called Joel, and we all know which song tethers Will to the rightside up ... It all aligns a bit too perfectly.

I noticed that this particular phrase was used in three different moments in the film.

At the beginning, when Joel and Clementine meet after having their memories of one another erased, they have the following conversation:

Joel: I should go now.

Clementine: You should stay.

Note the order of the phrases - Joel is avoidant, and always wants to leave, to go. Clementine is his tether, and urges him to stay.

The next time this phrase comes up is between Patrick and Mary, who we know are not destined for one another, as Mary is already tethered to Dr. Mierzwiak (but doesn't remember her love for him).

Mary: I'm staying, I'm staying!

Patrick: I think you should go.

Note the reverse order of this phrase - it ends with Patrick telling Mary to go, which foreshadows the end of their relationship.

Now, the most famous use of this phrase is at the end, once we arrive at Joel's first ever memory of Clementine. It's said over and over again, but it boils down to Clementine asking Joel to stay over and over again, and Joel expressing regrets about the memory erasure procedure, wishing he'd stayed.

Again, I think it's this interaction that ultimately tethers Joel to Clementine, and why he gets an urge to go to Montauk all of a sudden after his memories had been erased. I think it also ties back to Mike saying that he wished he had no regrets - 'I wish I had stayed, I do'.

Based on this, I think we'll be hearing 'Should I stay or should I go?' feature prominently in Volume 4, but whether or not this will be sufficient to tether Will back to the rightside up is up for debate. Many people think it will be Mike's touch that brings him back (paralleling S2), but I think that we'll also hear Mike ask Will to STAY. I don't think we'll hear Mike say "I love you" to Will, because we know that that is a doomed phrase for every couple that utters it lmao.

I also note that he doesn't ask El to stay in the purple rain scene - Mike says "You have to get out of there! You have to get out of there!" (is this foreshadowing Mike getting OUT of Vecna's trance as well?). It's odd phrasing, because he's not asking El to stay with him, which is why I think it will be an interesting parallel to a similar scene with Will in Volume 4.

Anyway, this is not a super cohesive post, I just had some initial thoughts after rewatching the film.

Curious to see if others had spotted other parallels/thematics that also apply.

[j-aquarian]

Fake hands

I saw people claiming the pictures in the credits were AI generated because the hands in the Rink'O'Mania image were all messed up, and I couldn't help but think of Mike's Barbie doll hands in his scene with El. Did they tell him to do weird hands because people have been conditioned to recognize stuff as fake from the hands? Interesting, if true.

I'm also suggesting the drawing had fucked up hands on purpose, not that the artist used AI.

[j-aquarian]

What happened? Why'd everybody stop posting? 😢

[penguinchick07]

Okay so let's say at least a part of the finale is mike's vecna vision, final battle scene included. Tell me why the mind flayer starts rising and i went "you know what it looks like lowkey??"

It's so funny how Mike's worst fear manifests itself...as this thing...that looks an awful lot like female genitalia...

There's no way they didn't realise what this looks like when creating the design sorry this HAS to be intentional 😭😭

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I mean...

It wouldn't be the first time.

[penguinchick07]

THANK YOU I WAS LOOKING FOR THAT POST 😭🙏 but yes exactly!! I also (maybe hot take) feel like this version of the mindflayer looking like…that. and vecna’s weird tendril thing looking suspiciously phallic have the same vibe somehow??

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

Ordinarily, I'd scoff at them doing something so crude, but they did make a bunch of Dick jokes earlier in the season.

[j-aquarian]

I swear I saw BTS pics or something of the spires the kids are on looking pretty damn vulva-ey too, but it's not so visible when the kids are on them covering the details.

[atsadi]

On unreliable narration: possession, the fourth wall, and you 🫵

Plenty of people are speculating about Will being possessed by Vecna in Volume 2.

Aside from details like odd, seemingly uncharacteristic costuming choices (orange?), the biggest clue to Will being possessed (by Henry) has got to be the line about getting milkshakes at Melvald’s.

But I think we’ve gotten some other good evidence for a possession, on the basis of foreshadowing, callbacks, and clearly unreliable narration.

Fighting monsters, evil wizards, and sorcerers

We may have had some foreshadowing that Will is going to turn on the Party right from the start, in 5.1.

Mike tells Holly that Mike the Brave goes on dungeon crawls where he explores underground worlds, and he fights monsters, evil wizards, and sorcerers.

I talked about this in more detail here, but as of 5.8 we’ve had the payoff for:

Mike going on a dungeon crawl (into the Upside Down)

Mike fighting a monster (Demo)

Mike fighting an evil wizard (Vecna)

But we have not yet had any payoff for Mike fighting a sorcerer (Will).

Additionally, the distinction between Vecna as a wizard and Will as a sorcerer is mentioned the ‘magical screenwriting number’ of three times… but with no payoff (yet).

1. Mike notes that Will is “more like a sorcerer” than a wizard (like Vecna is) (5.4)

2. Lucas says that now that he has powers, Will really is like his D&D character, Will the Wise, a wizard—Mike corrects him that Will is more like a sorcerer (5.5)

3. Then Erica and Mike correct Robin that Will is a real-life sorcerer, not a wizard (5.5)

On two of those occasions, Mike (or Erica) include the reasoning that Will's powers are "innate".

However, Will and Vecna both contradict this assertion.

(The AO3 tag would disagree with you there, Will, honey.)

Frankly, neither of these guys is particularly reliable: even assuming Will is still himself, he is canonically apallingly self-effacing—and why would we trust anything Vecna says?

So what is the truth about Will’s not-powers?

(I'm fascinated by Vecna's acknowledgement that there is much power in Will. We still don't have an answer as to why Will was taken in 1983, and why Vecna said, in 5.1, that he has Will "at long last". What differentiated Will?

And does it matter?)

Now, back on the possession front, we’ve already been given a big clue that Will is an unreliable narrator.

In 5.4, in the barn, Will draws the chamber where he saw the kids, and tells us:

Will: “… but I could feel it’s important to him. I had this feeling he didn’t want me there. I wasn’t supposed to see it.”

That sounds... dangerously familiar.

In 2.6 (The Spy), Will is possessed by the Mind Flayer and sends a group of soldiers into a death trap in the tunnels beneath Hawkins (which Vecna claims Will built).

Will: “I just know he doesn’t want me to see there. I think it’s important.”

(If Will is making it up in 5.4, as he did in S2, what are the implications? The chamber is a trap? The chamber is a lie?)

Another callback to the time we know for a fact Will was possessed: in 5.2, Will describes his “Demo-visions” to Joyce almost word-for-word how he describes the mid-stages of his possession to Mike in 2.5 (like a dream, feeling what it's feeling, seeing what it's seeing...).

Then in 5.4, Will describes the sensation very similarly to how he described it in 2.2: being stuck, or "frozen" in film.

And in S2, as in S5, Mike encourages him to weaponise his possession and turn it back on the possessor.

In S2, this plan backfires... and the Mind Flayer spies back.

In S5, their plan backfires... and Vecna spies back.

Now, as many other fans have asked… why did Vecna let Will live in 5.4?

Because he has a purpose.

Is it just helping Vecna find Max in the single most obvious place she could possibly be in the whole of Hawkins?

Or something much worse?

The last time we saw someone get Vecna'd... and bleeding from the eyes... before getting rescued by El... she ended up being trapped in Vecna's mind prison for 18 months.

In 5.4, Max describes the route back to freedom as going "back to the light"...

Is Vecna messing with us?

At the end of 5.7, when the children are all chanting “back to the light”, Henry!Vecna stares and smirks literally right into the camera.

It's a sustained shot, lasting around 6 seconds. It's also an unambiguous break in the fourth wall.

Vecna is looking at you 🫵

Speaking of the fourth wall (the creators interacting directly with the audience, through the medium)—

—some variation of the line, “It makes no (goddamn) sense!” is said by 5 major characters this season: 4 times in 5.2, and once in 5.6. It’s incredibly obvious repetition, to the point where I think it’s got to be leaning on the fourth wall.

In chronological order:

1. Mike to Nancy (5.2): “After all this time, it comes for Holly? Holly, who has nothing to do with any of this. I mean, it makes no goddamn sense.” (Nancy then reflects the line back at him.)

2. Joyce to Will (5.2): “This doesn’t make any sense. I… […] But we severed the connection [between Will and the hive mind].”

3. Hopper to El (5.2): “I’m sorry. So your theory is what, exactly? So the Demogorgon has taken little Holly Wheeler to Vecna, some sort of early Christmas present? What does Vecna want with Holly Wheeler? What… How does any of this make sense?”

4. Nancy to Mike (5.2): “And your theory is… what, exactly? [What if Mr. Whatsit is real?] It… it doesn’t make sense. How have we never seen him?”

5. Lucas to Mike and Robin (5.6): “Can someone please explain to me what the hell happened out there? We burnt out the particles! I watched them fly up the tower! […] So then Will should be unplugged from the hive mind. […] But why didn’t he wake up? How did he see Max—and she’s with Holly?? Is this real? Is Vecna messing with us again? This makes no goddamn sense!”

(Robin subsequently figures out that Max, Holly, and Will are all trapped in Vecna's mind. Is this also the explanation for all these other things that make no sense?)

So, first, note that Hopper and Nancy also both repeat the exact line, “your theory is what, exactly?”

Secondly, note that this line about things 'not making sense' is always said about one of two specific plot points:

Holly being taken by Vecna (x3)

Will still being connected to the hive mind, when he shouldn’t be (x2)

Speculation on this?

We are supposed to conclude that the events of S5 really don’t make sense.

We are allowed to make our theories; but we won’t get answers because we don’t yet have all the information.

We are supposed to question the true nature of Vecna's kidnapping of Holly, and of Will’s connection to the hive mind.

... I personally do think we will be getting more content in S5, in which case it tracks that the events of S5 don’t make sense—and, more specifically, that we do not yet have all the information we need to make it make sense.

Which brings me to my last points…

False endings

In the epilogue in 5.8, the Party is playing D&D. They believe they have lost, and feel hopeless (and irritated with Mike). The only player left to fight is Will, the Sorcerer, but his magic is blocked because he’s in range of the "suppression stone.”

(Max suggests Will just whack Strahd von Douchebag with his staff, lol I love you Max.)

But then! Dustin remembers the Mage of St. Markovia, who said they could summon her when at their lowest depth!

They excitedly recite the incantation to summon her…

… but nothing happens.

Mike plays it completely straight (pun intended), leaving it long enough that everyone starts grumbling at him and returning to their earlier despair ("This game is bullshit!").

Long enough for Dustin to ask why they even have the incantation if it didn't mean anything.

But just like in the very first D&D game of the show, it turns out Mike is messing with them.

In 1.1, he fakes out that they’re facing an army of troglodytes… but it’s actually the Demogorgon!

In 5.8, he fakes out that the incantation did nothing... but there was just a delay!

These scenes are mirrored down to the shot composition. The beats are almost exactly the same.

This mirroring could easily be a fourth wall-breaking message to the audience: that all the speculation and analysis and clues about 5.8 not being the real ending are correct...

... there’s just a delay.

It’s mirroring the start of the show.

This is only the beginning.

Replay the entire game... on a higher difficulty

Finally, I love the observation made by emagoner on Twitter (?) about the game Derek is playing in 5.3 (I can't find the original post, only screenshots).

(Note that the first shot we get of the game is ‘full-screen’, as if we ourselves are playing it.)

When Tina removes the game from the console, we can clearly see that it’s Ghosts ‘n Goblins. (The fact that they make the effort to ensure we know what the game is—without having to rely on somebody on the internet hopefully recognising it—is telling in and of itself.)

In Ghosts ‘n Goblins:

The player controls a knight who must defeat various monsters to rescue a princess—who has been kidnapped by the king of Demon World. Ghosts ‘n Goblins is often cited as one of the most difficult games of all time: after defeating the final boss, the player must then replay the entire game on a higher difficulty level to reach the genuine final ending.

So… I guess we add that to the pile of films and other media we know the Stranger Things writers were referencing that have false or alternate endings.

(If I were feeling bold, I’d speculate that we’re not just getting one new episode, we’re getting something quite a bit more substantial… 👀)

Personally, the date I will probably give up on us ever getting new S5 content is Monday, January 12th, when the Stranger Things documentary comes out.

Until then, let's hold on to the hope that Stranger Things is a show worth analysing! :)

[majexniqc]

HEAR ME OUT:

Alright so, I think the Duffer’s are so incredibly committed to the bit, that you have to appreciate it, and the rest of the cast and probably mostly their marketing team. So, Duffers have said this isn’t game of thrones and there’ll be no red wedding:

And then during the press tour, fans began “speculating” that eleven was toast because her reaction was identical to the one that Emilia Clarke gave when asked about how her character, the empowered magical female lead of the whole show, ended. And we know how that ended. So do the Duffers.

Now that the finale is out, the duffers are giving nonsensical answers that contradict each other, and things they’ve said in the past, and just overall tone-deaf. People have even compared them to the other D&D (David benioff and db Weiss) that they have ironically “mirrored.”

If it turns out that we’re not all in collective psychosis, then all of this is intentional and they’re not being ironic, they’re being satirical. Clowning Game of thrones, by capitalizing on the stain and the parallels of both show’s finales as way to further trick the GA and subvert expectations on several fronts (when the new finale drops). “Just cut me some slack” is genuinely so hilarious if you think about it this way.

And maybe they’re even clowning the surface level watchers that believe they’re smarter than the Duffers for seeing the connection between the shows and guessing the ending, by saying “we’ve known since Millie made that face;” while simultaneously ALSO making fun of them for thinking they’re being insulting by comparing them to D&D when that’s exactly what they want.

In this interview Finn says “listen some people were mad about the last episode of game of thrones, and this is the thing that kind of retcons that. We go back. We go back and we rewrite history.”

Like unless he was straight up lying out of his ass, but if we’re right, then it fits. And also, pictures of Mike visiting a grave with flowers (which we didn’t see in s5) were leaked and that’s when eleven death theories were circulating and it became more foreseeable.

Would Millie genuinely make that face and spoil the show? Couldn’t it be a scripted reaction (because they knew they’d all get asked that question during press) coordinated by Millie’s team and ST marketing team to commit to the bit? Please tell me yall see it a little?

[j-aquarian]

Oh, so they did take notes from Game of Thrones to make the ending we've seen bad on purpose possibly?

What else?

Are there more references?