Tell me more pretty please? 🥺 (letters, asking from main)
👀👀👀 ok this is gonna be long but basically from my pov it's how 1tl kishiar's actions and intent do not exist in a vacuum and examining how it affects and the implications it brings on his relationship with yuder is a really interesting point that i just microwave over and over again. it's how it's easy to say that yes kishiar's intent wasn't at all to manipulate or power abuse yudrein and how it did come from a genuine yearning and love but it doesn't mean that the inherent power dynamic of commoner/royalty, subordinate/commander, 20/29 doesnt affect that relationship, that it doesnt fuck it up a lot too. 1tl kishiyu was not at all on equal terms lmao and i think that it's okay (and fun!) to put that into discussion when talking abt 1tl kishiar
CONTENT WARNING: Discussions of and allusions to sexual coercion, dubious consent, and nonconsent
DISCLAIMER: first of all, i want to say that i understand where the fandom's reluctance on discussing this and the discomfort around this topic comes from, esp for a beloved character like kishiar. it can feel like condemnation, because a lot of people for some reason think that liking a character means endorsing everything that they do. however, i do believe that there is merit in discussing this aspect to their relationship as it not only provides depth from a narrative standpoint but also that engaging with fictional media with awareness of what it can entail is an important mindset to have, and that it shouldn't always have to reflect on what your personal beliefs are. saying this just in case, but this post is not made to condemn kishiar as a character nor anyone liking him (if you know me im like Big Kishiar Fan guy here) nor will i appreciate anyone using this post in that way. please be aware of your own comfort levels.
ramble ahead >>
in your (letters) og post, you brought up the dubious consent nature of 1tl kishiyu, and i agree! it's interesting because i agree that kishiar is not at all someone who'd force himself onto another (ESPECIALLY yuder) if the other had said no, but that's the catch. on top of their power gap, we don't know how and in what state yudrein had agreed to the whole fuckbuddies thing, and frankly it's kinda hard to imagine he was enthusiastic about it considering the Incident. one would argue that yuder isn't one to bow down on nobility and would've outwardly refused if he Truly didn't want to, but I beg to differ, and I come bringing evidences. Perhaps if it was other nobles, but kishiar is evidently different in context, and we HAVE actually seen 1tl yuder being reluctant to talk back to kishiar (chap 540):
both yuder and yudrein had also always subconsciously held kishiar in a pedestal. that's why even if yuder had outwardly said yes to the whole fuckbuddies thing, i would argue that, at least from our current information, it didn't seem like an enthusiastic or healthy one to warrant saying that it was perfectly consensual. ntm the flashback scene of the fuckbuddies proposition, which while not elaborated in the novel, the manhwa made it look like it was made not long after the incident (novel 37 and manhwa 25)
which add onto the dubious pile because yuder didn't seem like he was in the position to clearly think about it, had he agreed at that moment. and i would even argue that even after that too, considering he never realized his feelings for kishiar.
yuder's impression of the fuckbuddies situationship was also never good, even after he had gotten together with kishiar 2tl. even if he did had feelings for kishiar that he didn't know of, i think it shouldn't negate the bad experience either. it'd make the dynamic of 1tl kishiyu more interesting imo with the dubious angle on top of its already tragic nature. the fact that 2tl yuder got a sense of liberty over having a semblance of choice over his sexual activities also say a lot about the unhealthy nature of 1tl kishiyu, me thinks (ch 459)
so in conclusion my take on the fuckbuddies consent situation is that it was dubious as hell. even if yudrein had secretly liked it and yearned for kishiar's affections, i still think that it doesn't at all negate the dubious nature of it, plus the power imbalance it sits on really doesn't help. sure one can argue that expression of consent in writing can be dynamic (like, narratively speaking, sometimes having that scene of a healthy verbal discussions of consent in smut can break the flow of smexy and come off as therapytalk), but considering circumstancial evidence i really do find it hard to believe that yuder would be enthusiastic about this arrangement.
next, abt the power dynamics. i've already said it but there IS inherently a power gap with 1tl kishiyu, multiple ones in fact (age gap, status gap, mentor/student, subordinate/boss) that it really is such a cherry on top to the already noncommunicative nature of 1tl kishiyu. taking from letters' og post abt it too, kishiar was also the sole source of information and mentorship yudrein received, in which information that flows is controlled by kishiar. kishiar has power over yudrein in a lot of ways, and whether kishiar truly realizes the full scope of that or not is tbh anyone's guess. and kishiar was absolutely using yudrein for his own goals, was aware of it, felt guilty of it, and continued to do it (hence the stone pieces scene). he felt fit to entrust yudrein with a huge responsibility despite their mutual noncon tragedy. they were never on equal grounds, and power imbalance is like toxic relationship 101.
and here comes my favorite part: Kishiar, specifically. because this all looks bad on paper, but we know kishiar. we know that he never intended any malicious intent and that it all rooted on desperation and love, plus his own spiraling mental health. and my take is that both of these can coexist and is also simultaenously the cause of it. this is why i said kishiar's intent and actions do not exist in a vacuum, because said actions still bore consequences despite his intent. it's Tragedy in the way that he held so much love and yearning, but in his quest to quench it he had exerted power and hurt over the very person he loved with all his being. the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions alone won't undo the harm it causes. this is exactly the point that gets me so crazy abt 1tl kishiar because??? wow his fuckbuddy situationship (that HE started) is dubious as fuck and his power imbalance (which, in kuyu's qna where kuyu said 1tl kishiar was very aware of the age gap, id assume hed know too to some extent) is dubious as fuck and hes being intentionally cruel too a lot of times, damaging yuder's sense of self-worth thoroughly and irreversibly changed him while also simulatenously holding such deep and painfully yearnful love. his extreme self-awareness and guilt about it too is so deliciously gutwrenching for me, like fuckk i eat that up so good. i speculate too that another reason why he never revealed his love overtly other than the fact that he's dying is that hed think it rlly would be insulting. imagine if your whole life got uprooted and youre being pushed and pulled around (heh) by your superior seemingly on a whim, then you were told that it was done out of love. i'd be on the news. maybe thats why 1tl kishiar never bothered with apologies either; because he thinks that it couldn't and shouldn't be forgiven, even if he desperately wants to. 1tl kishiar is contradictory especially with his genuine love and intentional cruelty. and it's exactly that side of him that scared 2tl kishiar the most (one of it, tbf) when it comes to facing the white gloves, because kishiar is self-aware and he's made fully aware that he has the capabilities of all that. that's why i truly do find takes on kishiar in regarding to the power he holds to be real interesting. ive seen a post here somewhere too pointing out that kishiar's way of playing and manipulating with people can be terrifying, because it depends on who he deems it to be deserving or not. kishiar is not malicious in nature, but perhaps its that intentionality paired with his proficiency in influencing people when he deems it necessary enough that can be scary when dealing with him.
AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO YUDER because character agency is very important here too and it's also what cements kishiyu as Very Insane to me. i've listed down the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu's relationship, and yuder would have PLENTY of reasons to truly resent kishiar. it would be VERY valid of yuder too if he were to not accept kishiar back in his life, because despite all the reasons and love and yearning, the harm is still done, and kishiar is painfully aware of this too. but he did. yuder accepted kishiar again and even loves him even deeper. he chose to look forward despite all the trauma and hurt and embraced kishiar again, chose to understand him deeper still despite everything. this is why kishiar is so reverent almost to the point of worship. this is why kishiar felt like as if yuder was his god who gave him everything. because in his view, he really did. yuder gave kishiar everything kishiar had ever yearned for despite literally everything that happened. this is why i and you all do not condemn kishiar for what he did; because yuder didn't. that's why i think it's important to acknowledge and discuss the true scope of problems in 1tl kishiyu because it really does make yuder's growth and decision regarding his relationship with kishiar even more meaningful. that's why too i really need yuder himself to also acknowledge that instead of automatically thinking that it's his fault for not understanding 1tl kishiar enough or the like :((
so tldr, i think the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu is important because it makes 2tl kishiyu even more meaningful and Insane (and because i feed off this kind of angst So good)
LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS!! Will add from chapter 926, a passage that has haunted me:
The hands that would silently retreat as if even a lingering gaze was too much to bear.
Yuder had once suspected that the man, being of noble birth, wore gloves because he disliked touching a commoner like Yuder. It was common for nobles to mix with commoner concubines without fully undressing, revealing only parts of their bodies.
Even though the man must have known of Yuder's suspicions, he never explained, leading Yuder to believe it was the truth.
During those numerous nights, Yuder experienced fleeting yet profound misery. With each physical response of pleasure, an inexplicable, clumsy hope grew inside him, one that he couldn't eradicate. The wounds to his pride, stained anew each time that indescribable thing shattered. The realization on those miserable days that the man behind him was the only chest he could lean on and rely upon. Each time, the sprouts of his withering emotions dried up.
Like this is also an incredibly horrific description. Like Yuder at one point seemingly was under the impression that he is, essentially if I'm allowed to exaggerate a little, only slightly more convenient than a sex worker. Someone to fool around with, but not even a fuck buddy in the positive sense of mutual release, more like someone starving for affection and being utilized instead.
AMAZING addition ourgfhgfh because even with the consent issues aside, this physical relationship is just genuinely so miserable for yuder that its only takeaway is the physical pleasure. literally big part of why his sense of self-worth is so fucked up. adding too the quote on the top of my Diabolical Kishiar Lines ranking (chp 400)
intentional cruelty at play again because wow way to convey that their relationship is practically meaningless. comes as he pleases, fucking yuder until unconsciousness, leaving a cold side of the bed for yuder to wake up to, making yuder think that he's only worth a bedwarmer, only to insinuate that their relationship isn't even a grain worth to him.
in kishiar's defense the gloves wasn't part of that cruelty because of his genuine issues with it but what IS cruelty is not communicating abt it!!! 1tl kishiyu is not miscommunication its kishiar deliberately shutting down any form of honest and personal communications!!! all while he keeps fucking yuder until he passes out irregularly. like my guy you know this looks real bad on you right.
Thank you KannaWandering for all your banger posts, I got into turning mid march and have been reading non stop- I really enjoy your character analysis. Its so good omg.
Ive also making a PowerPoint presentation to explain the plot to my friend (it’s at 100 slides chp385 so far) who has been forced into 10 hour calls to talk about the novel (his fav character is Kanna, her power immediately hooked him and he’s always asking about her❤️ shes my fav character too after Yuder )
just reached 759 with the ominous white gloves dream 😭 I’m scared. Also I’m excited to learn more about Myra. Thank you again for your silly posts ❤️
Hello??? Thank you??? 😭😭😭
Nowadays I'm lurking around here because im thinking about Gloe and Kanna a lot but I don't wanna sound mega insane to people here. Crazy how time flies...
I don't think im really good at analysis because I struggle to get my point across (autism makes me struggle with tones) but I'm glad that someone enjoys what I put out anyway... It's so nice...
Not even 1/4th in, and its already a 100 pages PowerPoint... Omg your friend 😭 He's a real one for liking Kanna though so I believed in his ability to make it out. It's time for you to find yourself in megahell with us. Hope you enjoy! It definitely gets so much fun here. Myra is such a character of all time...
I love you so much anon!! /p Thank you... its so sweet...
a very quick drawing of Kanna, been wanting to draw something with her that features her ability, but it's not a very visual power so this is all I've got for now, I'll make something cooler another time
I've been really enjoying this unrefined coloring style I've been doing recently, it forces me to experiment with shapes and like. color theory shit more
Wait, so Fay's power isn't about creating duplicates, but something involving healing, since his wish when he Awakened was for his mother to be healthy, but since his mother was already dead, his ability became distorted and created an inanimate duplicate? Does this mean Fay could become an Awakened with healing powers? Or something related to restoration, since he managed to restore that branch to its original state when he used his ability in training with Yuder?
Furthermore, considering that his power seems to be heavily based on that legend about a fairy in the lake who granted wishes with a scale, performing true miracles, does Fay's ability have any limits beyond his current capacity to handle it? Eventually, could Fay also perform miracles depending on what he offered as a "sacrifice" on the scale?
trying to kannapost but I rewrote that shit 3 times and I still can't get it to come out right. whatever I guess. this is why I hate the concept of characters who can read the future. and fuck Nous
The unofficial translation of Turning Chp.176 has a slightly confusing usage of phrasing in one of the first lines that made me misunderstand the context of what was actually happening in the scene on my first few reads of the story (maybe it was a me problem, but it was confusing to me anyways).
This is the scene:
This scene is directly after Yuder said, "You are the only one who can command me."
Based on the wording, I thought it was Kishiar laughing confusedly after Yuder said that absolutely crazy confession, but after reading through the official Korean version, it was actually Yuder who smiled at Kishiar's stunned silence. And that silenced Kishiar even more.
And because of that, I feel robbed of the second time in the story where Yuder directly smiled at Kishiar. I don't why this is upsetting me this much. Maybe I just want to keep track of all the very treasured moments where Yuder smiles or laughs.
It's a new beginning for Yuder. Here's a man breasting boobily down the stairs. The world really is beautiful.
Yuder has to change the world this time around, the stakes are too high. We can't lose the Gakane's national treasure double D's. It would be so sad if we lost his boinging bazongas.
No, he isn't the ML. He's the MMMMML for his Massive MoMMy Milkers.
I have an honest question regarding the children of the imperial line. Whenever there was mention of a child having vessel problems being sent away from the palace, it has always been a prince. Both Kishiar and Keilusa have had vessel problems, and both are men. So does that mean vessel issues have only ever affected men? We see that in the story, there have been 10 Dukes from the imperial line that had been faced with vessel issues, with Kishiar being one of them. They were recorded in history to have all died before 30 due to deterioting health, and eventually, an imploding body. Them all being Dukes implies there hasn't been any princesses becoming Duchesses with this issue. So I was wondering if this is simply the classic case of sexism where women weren't important enough to be recorded, the princesses with vessel issues were simply named Duke like the princes, or kuyu simply didn't take into consideration of the presence of imperial princesses as much in the story.
However, based on my personal reading, the world of Turning isn't as explicit with sexism towards women as a typical European ambiance story would be. I remember seeing a post here on Tumblr that women aren't really discriminated against in Turning, and that Omegas seem to be the representatives of the sexism experience (I can't remember who posted this one sorry I would totally quote you if I could). And I totally agreed with the post.
The world is seen through Yuder's eyes, and as a result, it's hard to guess the explicit boundaries that women face in this world. However, based on context, it seems as though that women in leadership positions aren't uncommon. It appears that being a women in a leadership position doesn't seem to be explicitly opposed against either. This is seen through Myra taking over the Herne family in the Southern region, Priscilla taking over Pruelle's position as heir and eventually head of Tain, Hellem being the former Head Mage of the Pearl Tower, and even Faria who temporarily took over Keilusa's position in the Council when he was having health issues.
So this brings me back to my question. Is there specifically in the genetics of males that brings about the vessel issues? Am I going too far with my thought process with XY chromosome correlation? Is the issue more magically than medically induced? Even amongst the four Duke families, there has only ever been mention of men having explicitly severe health issues. Myra, though frail, doesn't seem to have any horrible health issues. I can't help but think that because medicine seems to be relatively practical yet simple, due to normal and priestly magic but not advanced like modern medicine, that it can't take into consideration of genomes. Maybe the type of inbreeding mutation amongst the imperial and duke families causes defects in the vessel that directly affects the XY chromosome.
Maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe I'm too lost in the sauce. Maybe I've been talking too much about medicine and Turning with @yudreinbrainrot . What do you people think?
Can't remember what chapter or where in the story, but there was a mention of a previous princess's wet nurse who committed murder-suicide because she was in so much pain and faced a gruesome death regardless.
It's also possible that when Enon/Kishiar and Yuder discuss "previous Dukes", women who were potentially given that title are included in that.
Unofficial English translations may have opted to call Myra "Duchess of Herne" but in the original Korean text she is "Duke of Herne" (헤른 공작님). I believe this is the case because the setting treats "Duke" as a title separate from gender connotations.
As for sexism within their society, it doesn't seem as extreme at least within high society and the courts. Although if Kanna's upbringing and motivation for running away is any indication of whether it exists, then it certainly does even that high up.
There's also a line in ch.741 that always came off to me as a subtle hint at sexism that Eaver may have grown up with in the rural countryside as a commoner:
Ever focused her energy into her fingertips, assuming a ready stance. The power that enveloped her gloves, like a thin shield, was ideal for piercing, as hard as solid metal.
Anyone who underestimated her as just a woman would be swiftly subdued by the fearsome power at her fingertips, unable to mount a proper defense.
'I wasn't appointed Deputy Commander for nothing.'
Even among the Awakeners, one shouldn't judge by appearances alone, a fact they should have well known. Encountering such a fool who still made such judgments ignited her fighting spirit.
(Adding to the part about Kanna's story proving that sexism is a thing within high society)
I think that if Kanna's story in itself didn't prove misogyny (at a less big scale) exists, the fact that Yuder says (in the same chapter it's revealed in) that he expected her background to be along those lines this would do it.
While reading, I was thinking that misogyny in a conventional sense doesnt really exist, so this line could be mainly about Kanna being an illegitimate child... Until we got to the South.
There we got our 3rd story about a woman being stripped of their agency entirely and married off to someone in the name of their father gaining political influence (Kanna, Faria and Myra) and while these manage to be due to different circumstances (not so much for Faria/Myra but oh well), the fact that it happened to the 3 major "noblewomen" this novel had certainly means something.
This is where I'm supposed to say something about nickels... Whatever.
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