Join, Or Die

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall hang separately.

[knee-breeches]

this is what the online amrev community of yesteryears looks like to me every time I peek my head in after the hamilton nation attacked

[knee-breeches]

Hiiii not sure if this blog is active but I just wanted you to know that my professor used your The Room Where It Happens art on his slide while discussing Washington politics the other day

oh my god what?? I dont even remember what that drawing is lol it must be from 10+ years ago

thats cool tho ty prof

[july12th1804]

Happy Pride

[maddsjammyjr]

literally them

[knee-breeches]

Favorite 1776 song?

I mean sit down john is so iconic

[knee-breeches]

Do you think Jefferson would like building or crafting stuff in Minecraft?

yes but he would never finish anything

[knee-breeches]

BRO lizzo played James Madison’s crystal flute

ik some people were shitting their diapers on this but as the reigning authority on james madison, I'm unironically 100% confident that he would have been extremely down for this

[pixilotol-deactivated20230310]

[undiscoveredstory]

Do you think Nathan Hale and Benjamin Talmadge had a sexual relationship? Romantic, I believe so because of their letters and just the way Ben acted after Nathan’s death.

I have literally been thinking about this ask all day because I have to admit–– I didn’t know much about their relationship until I got this. I knew about them individually, but I didn’t even realize they went to Yale together. So of course this means I dedicated research time at work to learning more about them! (That’s the beauty of working at an 18th century site… all 18th century history is related and relevant to my job, in my opinion ;) This is the conclusion I came to:

Nathan Hale and Benjamin Tallmadge definitely had what could be interpreted as romantic aspects to their relationship

I mean Hale wrote Tallmadge this really sweet poem, like… he wrote him a poem

They were certainly very bonded–– their contemporaries seemed to recognize their friendship, which tells us it made an impression on others

They referred to each other as Damon and Pythias, who are literally the Greek ideal of best friends

Tallmadge also reacted really strongly to Hale’s death, supposedly crying anytime Hale was mentioned

He never brought up Hale’s death on his own except to John Andre 

And then he only mentioned it to tell Andre that he viewed his form of death (hanging) as retaliation for Hale’s

Tallmadge’s refusal to speak about Hale’s death reminds me a lot of Hamilton almost never mentioning Laurens’ death

So we have all the groundwork for a relationship here

But we have nothing beyond what I see as vague groundwork :(

We also need to keep in mind that 18th century relationships between men were much more openly loving than what we’re accustomed to today

These letters are not out-of-the-ordinary for 18th century male friends who shared such a close bond

All of this considered, I’m sorry to say I cannot and will not say for certain that they shared a romantic or sexual relationship

Before you hate me, hear out my reasoning!

We have very very very few surviving documents from them

All we have (to my knowledge) are two letters Tallmadge wrote to Hale, the poem, some references to their friendship in other letters to mutual friends, and Tallmadge’s account of his conversation with Andre

We also have others’ accounts of their Yale years, which show us how close friends they were, but it’s hard to glimpse anything more from those accounts

And it would be, of course! Nobody in the 18th century is going to openly acknowledge a same-sex relationship, and, if they shared one, their friends were certainly unaware

But history relies on primary documents, and sadly they are very lacking here :(((

If we had more letters, or more forward letters (think Ham’s innuendos to Laurens), then we’d have more to work from

I’m not saying they didn’t/don’t exist, I’m saying if they do, they’re currently lost to history

So with so few documents, as a historian, I cannot draw any conclusion on the status of their relationship

As it stands now, I interpret it as the ideal 18th century friendship between men

Trust me, I want them to be gay. I really, really, really wanted to discover a relationship between these two

My hope is more letters will come to light at some point, and then we can reevaluate their relationship

But until that happens, this case will remain unsolved (sorry I couldn’t help it (kudos if you catch the reference))

(Read Eliza Schuyler Facts Part One) (Read Eliza Schuyler Facts Part Two) (Hamilton insulted Eliza?) (Was Eliza smart?)

(Read Peggy Schuyler Facts) (Read Cornelia Schuyler Facts) (Read Info on Schuyler Siblings)

(Read Lafayette Facts Part One) (Read Lafayette Facts Part Two) (Read Lafayette Facts Part Three)

(Read Lams Facts) (Read about John Laurens’ sexuality)

(Read Hercules Mulligan Facts) (Read Deborah Sampson Facts) (Read Maria Reynolds Facts)

[knee-breeches]

Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson: You can't shoot history in the neck

Hamilton: You have no control who lives, who dies, who tells your story

1776, an intellectual: *ominous bonging*

[shmegmilton]

What was James Madison sick with?

     It’s unclear. Historians have their theories (including some people who say he wasn’t sick at all he was “just a hypochondriac,” which is... an awful take. for several reasons), but there’s obviously no real way to confirm them & medical science wasn’t advanced enough for them to understand anything too complicated, so the notes we do have aren’t that much help.

The Hypochondriac Theory

   Some historians have labeled Madison’s issues as “hysteria” because Madison tended to surround himself with doctors & complain of issues that he ended up not having. After all, he couldn’t have been that sick--he lived to 85! He outlived all the other Founding Fathers! He was lying the whole time, right?

  People tend to use hypochondria (an obsession over your health to the point you think any change is indicative of a serious problem--like thinking a headache lasting more than a few hours is brain cancer) as a passive-aggressive way of saying “you’re faking it.” It’s synonymous with people who worry about nothing & do shit for attention. This is particularly true if your problem is so rare that there isn’t a lot of accurate ways to test for it, so results either come up as inconclusive or negative.

But the main thing that people don’t like to talk about when discussing hypochondria is that it doesn’t just... happen at random. I would know. I have it.

I’ve been sick since I was a newborn; I’ve had 4 brain surgeries, 5 broken arms, 3 bone marrow transplants, bone cysts, 3 eye surgeries (about to be 4), Shunt placements, ETV placements, Hydrocephalus, Osteopenia, brain damage, scars all over my body & 11 surgeries before I was 12 years old. Hypochondria is often the result of legitimate medical episodes, particularly if it’s something traumatizing--directed towards yourself, or towards a close family member.

It’s valid trauma just like anything else, and is oftentimes only “cured” through things like mood stabilizing medication, lifestyle changes, or behavioral therapy.

So, Madison having hypochondria or not is irrelevant to the whole discussion, because (as I can attest) it’s entirely possible to be suffering from hypochondria, & still have “real” medical issues.

Underweight

All of the physical descriptions of Madison we have tell us that he is 5″4′’ & “never weighted over 100lbs,” which... is probably true, but I wouldn’t say never because that’s immediately disprovable once you start looking around; apparently his official weight during his presidency was 122bs. But at that point he was 57, so things could have changed.

Hell, I was 130lbs three years ago & only RECENTLY got to that number again; it’s hard to keep on weight when you’re struggling with health issues.

Weak Immune System

Madison’s immune system has been implied to be very weak. We don’t have that many examples of childhood illnesses or such things like that, but a particularly telling example is how his family discouraged him from attending a local college in Virginia.

He wanted to go to William & Mary, but was dissuaded by his doctors due to malaria outbreaks being very common in the South during the summer. So the assumption there is Madison (who lived in Virginia all his life, summers & all) probably went through something severe recently? Maybe? It’s unclear.

So he went to Princeton (Class of 1771) in New Jersey instead, & was actually one of the first graduates to peruse extra education... but only because he was too sick to travel home & decided to stay a while longer.

Though, there’s also apparently a legend that Madison (because he finished his courseload in 2 years, instead of 3) had a mental breakdown over it & therefore needed to recuperate (with... more work?), but I’ve never been able to find that much information on it.

Seizure-Like Episodes

Following college, in July 1775 Madison attempted to volunteer as a soldier. But during a routine training exercise, Madison all the sudden collapsed (or fainted) & was reportedly unresponsive for several minutes. This would be a common occurrence for pretty much the rest of his life.

     Episodes tended to be accompanied by what Madison described as mild delirium, memory loss & a suspension of “intellectual function.” It’s led some people to theorize he suffered from epilepsy, since it’s common for sufferers to be confused, agitated or upset following an episode—because you often have no memory of it after ‘waking up’. Specifically, the behavior is theorized to be petit mal or “absence” seizures.  

“Vocal Impairment”

     Accounts of what Madison was like as a public speaker all seem to agree that he spoke so softly that it was oftentimes difficult to hear him; it was oftentimes shrill, but quiet & he reportedly had trouble raising his voice to a decent volume.

This one is a bit of a mystery, but Madison had been complaining about a “vocal impairment” as early as his teenage years, in what I can only assume to be some sort of vocal chord issue, or a respiratory problem (like trying to speak when you have something stuck in your throat.)

     As much as I dislike Hamilton, the play actually hints at this in a clever way by having the Madison character speak minimally (as well as carry a handkerchief around). Well done, I guess.

“Biliousness”

     Later in his life, Madison started suffering from something called “biliousness,” which is just an outdated term for conditions that cause gastrointestinal problems, like chronic stomach inflammation or etc.

--

      In the end, James Madison died of (we assume) congestive heart failure at the age of 85, remaining pretty alert up until the last few months before his death. He outlived nearly all of his peers (if we’re counting Burr) & probably did a lot better than what his doctors expected out of him.

[ladyhistory]

[fife and drum kit playing in the distance]

[sophaea]

[sassafrasjungle]

#the poison#the poison for kuzco#the poison chosen especially to kill kuzco#kuzco’s poison#that poison

[historyconfessions-crushes-deac]

[knee-breeches]

lovingly, I’m gonna go ahead and nitpick this on main since nobody asked.

the first one is backwards. monroe’s dying words were that his only regret was “never again being able to behold him [madison].” by the time madison had died, monroe had been long gone.

as for the second one, I agree that the relationship is under-examined but more because I think it’s somewhat analogous to the adams/jefferson on-again-off-again thing, not the least because monroe was quixotic and paranoid and madison was pragmatic and exacting and only EVER entertained monroe’s idiosyncrasies for varying intermittent intervals at the behest of jefferson. it was more than just once that they had a falling out. 

also, madison was never jefferson’s apprentice. not sure where people get that from. monroe, however, did in fact study under jefferson for a time as a formal student.

[the13colonies]

WTF IS MADISON PISS KINK IM SO CONFUSED

I've said it before and I will say it again. James Madison wrote piss poetry in college.

[knee-breeches]

please tell us more about Madison writing hetalia fanfiction bc my brain is speedrunning the five stages of grief

When he was old and in retirement, he was being inundated with requests from colleagues (among them Lafayette and his young secretary, Edward Coles) to take a public stance against slavery and to make a statement by liberating his own slaves. At this point, (1820s, in the wake of the Missouri Crisis), the tensions between North and South over the issue of abolition were really starting to threaten the nation’s likelihood of remaining unified, so if there was ever a salient time in Madison’s career during which to speak out, it would have been at this point.

Instead he picked up a pen and appropriated a fictional character created by John Arbuthnot in 1712 named John Bull and created three characters stemming from that one, Old Bull (England), Jonathan Bull (the American North) and Mary Bull (the American South). Using these personifications, he wrote an allegory in which Mary Bull’s arm had turned black, and Jonathan Bull roundly censured her for refusing to get it amputated. But Mary Bull retorted that Jonathan Bull had no right to chastise her over her “deformity,” because he too had various black “spots” all over his body. Madison’s contention, of course, was that the North had no right to sanction the perpetuation of slavery in the South as the institution hadn’t been unilaterally illegalized in that region, but I digress.

So anyway, the point is, Madison wrote Hetalia fanficiton as an old man and I wish I could make this shit up but I literally couldn’t if I tried.

[valend]

madisonian? what am I? gay??

[knee-breeches]

we should all have the proclivity for inexplicably overturning the foundation of our political ideologies halfway through our careers and for writing bad hetalia fanfiction rationalizing slavery