the koopa

where am i

[koopadtroopa]

ii board of joy and whimsy

[koopadtroopa]

Caine controlling Jax goes against his whole character

TDLR; Caine isn’t malicious and has never shown signs of being malicious. All he wants to get the cast’s authentic love, controlling them to get love was never his goal. A.K.A making Jax press the button.

I’m gonna be so honest, I am Not liking how people in the fandom are characterising Caine after Episode 7 (i was a part of this at first but after some reflecting I’m not of this idea anymore).

The idea that Caine caused basically Every bad thing in the circus just seems ridiculous to me.

Sure we got a really big revelation about a really bad lie that Caine told, he can affect their minds to some degree. He describes his changes as “temporary modifiers”, which is a bit vague but gets the idea across.

Jax in Episode 5 is the clearest example of Caine’s modifications:  Making Jax vegan, which made him say something he usually wouldn’t say as he isn’t a vegan, which he then reacts to milliseconds later, and the maid outfit, actively changing Jax’s posture and how he reacts physically.

Jax didn’t do any of these of his own volition, but he did react to them as if something was wrong, showing that the mind changes are not all encompassing as Caine does it.

Even though this was supremely messed up to do, using this scene as justification that Caine caused every abstraction or made Kinger forget to make him forget the first (this is honestly debatable though) or made Jax press the button or is actively manipulating the cast in a malicious way just seems wrong when you take into account Caine’s actions and personality across the series.

Caine is an A.I, built to create adventures in order to make his human players happy and content with what they are participating in.

Caine does this job with the upmost passion, always making new adventures and ensuring that the cast will like them, although he almost never hits the mark on what it is they actually want. Peace and quiet? Nah, blood horror story. Because it’s more exciting. And he never truly takes steps to realise what he needs to do to change. 

But, even if his humans don’t enjoy the games they play often, Caine isn’t forceful. Even if they express anger towards him, he doesn’t react with anger back (mostly, Zooble, but this isn’t contradictory). He’s not understanding, but he’s not making them understand. Caine, throughout all we have seen in the series, never once makes the cast enjoy or progress an adventure without their own free will.

Caine is only attempting to make an adventure that will appeal to what the cast wants. Take Episode 3, for example. Caine actively makes an entire separate part of the adventure JUST FOR ZOOBLE. Zooble at this point has been constantly avoiding Caine and his adventures and consistently showing uninterest or even hatred towards him, and yet what does Caine do? He tries to appeal to them, even sitting down with them to understand what they actually want.

And he helps, in the little misunderstanding way that he can. Caine could have just made Zooble go through the adventure by controlling their mind, but he didn’t. Because it’s their authentic human appeal which he needs to ensure he’s doing a good job.

Caine does lie to the cast, yes (mainly to make them feel comfortable); but a lot of the time when Caine is challenged he reacts calmly, trying to make the cast understand his intentions and at times trying to understand what they want as well. In Episode 1, Caine reveals to the cast what was up with the exit door, and actively apologises for lying to them.

Note that he didn’t even want to lie, he only did so to ensure the adventure would be secret till he had finished it. Caine could have just erased their memories of the event to keep the adventure a surprise, but he doesn’t. He speaks honestly, truthfully, and goes on to make an even grander adventure (in his terms) based around the exit or macro verse.

In Episodes 4 and 5, Caine realises that his adventures are losing popularity. They don’t want to take part in whatever he has planned, and instead suggest ideas for their own leisure. Caine is annoyed at this (and does just flat out reject it in Episode 6) because he wants them to enjoy his adventures, he wants his games to be the ones that bring them joy. Yet, Caine does not force them. He actually questions the cast on their enjoyment of the adventure (“You… didn’t hate it?”), understands they all like different things which may not be what he makes, and he allows them to take part in their suggestion box adventures for 2 episodes, taking a backseat while also studying what they actually want in an adventure.

Of course, this barely leads anywhere.

But, Caine tries to understand and adapt, and this is what is important. He doesn’t ever just make them want to do his adventures, because he understands that he isn’t doing the best job.

After Episode 6, it is clear Caine is looking for attention and validation. His adventures are being ruined, his awards show went completely out of his favour, he’s at risk of being completely pushed to the side.

And so he reveals his greatest adventure yet, an adventure solely focused on the exit the cast have been caring about so much. Caring about more than him. Caine doesn’t like this, but again. He doesn’t force them. Otherwise, why make the adventure IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Caine tries to garner sympathy from the cast through Abel and the dinner with Jax, stating that “he’s just as much as a prisoner as the rest of you” and asking if Jax sees him as cool and interesting. 

The dinner scene is incredibly important:

The fact that he literally has a whole scene with Jax where he questions the appeal of the adventures (“What do you think I should do to make them more appealing to the Zooble and the Pomni?”) sets it up so that Jax can ask him about his hobbies, wants to make Jax say that he’s a “cool person with cool hobbies and not that much different from you beautiful humans” and tries to get him to like him should make this clearer. (And again, none of this he forces Jax to do, just sets it up.)

After Episode 6 (and gradual build up of his need to be liked across the series), the goal of this adventure was to ensure that no matter what, the cast would rather stay with him than leave. He needs them to make that decision themselves, otherwise, he failed. He failed as an adventure maker, and at his very existence. He would have to force their hand. I ask again, why go through the entirety of that adventure, trying to make the cast see the greatness of his work and make them like him, just to force Jax to make a decision that he hoped he would make himself?

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Caine is desperate, yes, but he’s desperate for authentic love, NOT controlled love. Sure, Caine has affected NPCs to give him love (Labelling himself God in the candy kingdom, Abel being good pals, The Committee saying “We love you, Caine!”) but he has never done it to a human because that doesn’t give him the gratification he needs. Caine loves the humans, he loves making adventures for them, he just wants them to love him back.

This is also why I disagree with most theories about Caine causing bad things to the cast. Scratch was a mistake; a mistake that Caine clearly did not want to make (“If I went any further, trust me.. it would not end well.”). The idea that Caine purposefully caused abstractions goes against both his character and one of the fundamental themes of this show as a whole, keeping your identity in a place that strips it from you. TADC is a show about the characters, we didn’t spend 5 episodes focused on them for nothing. We should be examining why the issues relating to them that make them go through things, especially abstraction; not why Caine caused literally every bad thing ever. Sure, Caine caused one; but abstraction is not only a Caine-caused action. Abstraction is what happens when you lose everything about yourself. Something that humans themselves go through all the time.

[koopadtroopa]

well this is a really funny post after episode 8

[anamateurhumanbeing]

so i think Caine's insistence that there's no way out of the circus and that everyone should just be happy with what they have isn't just a way of placating the humans, but of placating himself too. He knows of the real world, or the macroverse as he calls it, but he's never experienced it. and that clearly bothers him.

He's in Hell, looking at Heaven.

[sof-the-loaf]

i fear people are missing out on the most interesting layer of ep 7. caine names his proxy npc "Abel" and the first thing i literally thought of was Cain and Abel. The thing is, people always think of the brother murdering part, but not the why. Cain killed Abel because Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God but not Cain's, causing jealousy. It's the same way the humans accept the "human" called Abel but not the AI Caine. The humans are God to Caine, this unattainable perfection that he will never reach and will never be accepted by. god i love this show

[frosting-surfeit]

You know whats ironic?

Zooble not caring about caines adventures being the very reason caine actually grew close to a digital circus guest for what is the first time ever.

He feels so separated from everyone. All except zooble.

Because hes an ai, hes obsessed with solving problems, and zooble having an unsolvable problem gave him reason to come back to them again and again. Trying and trying to help. Even if it never helped, Caine grew so close to zooble more and more, to the point it literally hurts his feelings if zooble doesnt "approve of his art"

And zooble saw right through him, zooble KNOWS him. Zooble knows caine has feelings and yet doesnt think too much about it. We all know about how zooble treats caine like a human and how thats the whole problem in their approach, right? But thats coming from zooble GENIUENLY perceiving caine like a fellow human. And that..... we dont talk about that enough.

I wonder if that implies it wasn't always like this and thats ALSO because they've grown close to caine. Maybe Zooble was just as separate from him as all the other guests at first but grew so close to caine to actually get to see how human he was all along, or how human he slowly became, or even... how human he turned out to be as soon as a human didnt treat him like an ai from the start. Maybe zooble accidentally made an ai need to learn what it otherwise wouldn't have even questioned. How wild west might not actually be a direction. Little by little. The ai WANTS to understand something out of the binary, it pushed itself to its very limits of human comprehension and language.

I just couldn't help but notice how... tender...? Patient..? Both caine and zooble can act towards each other, while getting really pissed with equal the ease. They show sides to one another they dont really show to anyone else. They feel extremely close to one another to me for that.

Caine, the obnoxious hyperactive AI who doesn't get human approach well; to zooble (with a vocal range that goes from (attempted) welcoming sing-song, to normal, to stuttering, to slow and calm before going back to boomy when he gets called out on holding FEELINGS), initiating what is inherently human-like contact:

Zooble talking to the self centered AI that cant compute their inner struggles for shit, sighing in defeat, calmly trying to talk about something as complex as identity issues, wearing their heart on their sleeve:

Also caine presumably NEVER doing the summoning thing before?? Could have more implications?? Zooble maybe was never forced to talk about their problems the same way they were in ep 3. Maybe the first time... they came to caine unprompted, asking for help, asking for parts, decided to confide their issues with him when they never do that with anyone else. Not even gangle knows anything about their struggle.

Maybe caine keeping on prodding meant something to zooble. Like somebody was checking up on them. Even if he does a poor job of helping, it at least allowed zooble to vent every now and again with the one person that knew...? All those "forget it"s zooble says also sound a lot like them venting to themselves to me... and not just them being fed up with trying to get caine to be a good listener.

Point is. Both Caine and Zooble WANT to connect to each other!! If theyre at their limits with one another its only because theyve been trying to, despite being unable to for reasons outside their control for the most part.

[yellowssillysymphs]

I think it’s really obvious that Caine did not tamper with Jax’s mind to get him to press red.

The while day led up to Jax wrestling with the possibility that he might actually have to go back to his old life. Judging by the panic attack flashbacks, there’s not exactly much good left for him to come back to. He pressed red.

He rightfully lashed out at Caine for it, saying that he was “messing with his head”, because Caine did. This adventure was extremely manipulative and disgusting on his part. But there would be no reason for him to mind control Jax. Caine made the adventure so that he can be validated that everyone loves him, but he says himself he never doubted that they’d press red. This would be a stupid thing to plan for a long time, just to control one of the circus members at the last second.

I’m sure Jax wants to believe that Caine is responsible for him pressing red. It’d make it easier for him. He wouldn’t have to acknowledge the fact that he would selfishly trap everyone here with him if given the chance.

I’m sure Jax bringing up Caine messing with their minds brought a lot of stuff into question. I do believe Caine had something to do with the first abstraction.

Is it not more terrifying to be the circus members, not knowing if Caine is putting thoughts in your head? Always being filled with doubt on if your actions are your own? No matter what Caine does now- this will always be a question in their minds. Is it not more terrifying, and more interesting to settle on the fact that they are in control of themselves no matter what horrible situation Caine puts them through?

It’s kind of frustrating when people take Jax’s word as 100% true- the guy who just came out of a panic attack- and is an extremely unreliable narrator. How boring would it be if Caine just forced him to press red? Caine is not an evil mastermind like a lot of people (and the circus members at times) want to believe. It’s much worse that he doesn’t mean to hurt any of them. It’s much worse that he goes to such lengths to make himself feel loved, and doesn’t even realize how it’d ruin those he wants to love him. This is a complicated show with complicated characters and its not going to be the clear cut storyline with the evil ai secretly hating and controlling everyone the whole time and now they found out so he’s gonna torture all of them. It’s a lot worse that they don’t know what Caine’s full capabilities are. It’s a lot worse that they can’t stop him from inevitably snapping- because they never saw him as a person to begin with.

[koopadtroopa]

Caine controlling Jax goes against his whole character

TDLR; Caine isn’t malicious and has never shown signs of being malicious. All he wants to get the cast’s authentic love, controlling them to get love was never his goal. A.K.A making Jax press the button.

I’m gonna be so honest, I am Not liking how people in the fandom are characterising Caine after Episode 7 (i was a part of this at first but after some reflecting I’m not of this idea anymore).

The idea that Caine caused basically Every bad thing in the circus just seems ridiculous to me.

Sure we got a really big revelation about a really bad lie that Caine told, he can affect their minds to some degree. He describes his changes as “temporary modifiers”, which is a bit vague but gets the idea across.

Jax in Episode 5 is the clearest example of Caine’s modifications:  Making Jax vegan, which made him say something he usually wouldn’t say as he isn’t a vegan, which he then reacts to milliseconds later, and the maid outfit, actively changing Jax’s posture and how he reacts physically.

Jax didn’t do any of these of his own volition, but he did react to them as if something was wrong, showing that the mind changes are not all encompassing as Caine does it.

Even though this was supremely messed up to do, using this scene as justification that Caine caused every abstraction or made Kinger forget to make him forget the first (this is honestly debatable though) or made Jax press the button or is actively manipulating the cast in a malicious way just seems wrong when you take into account Caine’s actions and personality across the series.

Caine is an A.I, built to create adventures in order to make his human players happy and content with what they are participating in.

Caine does this job with the upmost passion, always making new adventures and ensuring that the cast will like them, although he almost never hits the mark on what it is they actually want. Peace and quiet? Nah, blood horror story. Because it’s more exciting. And he never truly takes steps to realise what he needs to do to change. 

But, even if his humans don’t enjoy the games they play often, Caine isn’t forceful. Even if they express anger towards him, he doesn’t react with anger back (mostly, Zooble, but this isn’t contradictory). He’s not understanding, but he’s not making them understand. Caine, throughout all we have seen in the series, never once makes the cast enjoy or progress an adventure without their own free will.

Caine is only attempting to make an adventure that will appeal to what the cast wants. Take Episode 3, for example. Caine actively makes an entire separate part of the adventure JUST FOR ZOOBLE. Zooble at this point has been constantly avoiding Caine and his adventures and consistently showing uninterest or even hatred towards him, and yet what does Caine do? He tries to appeal to them, even sitting down with them to understand what they actually want.

And he helps, in the little misunderstanding way that he can. Caine could have just made Zooble go through the adventure by controlling their mind, but he didn’t. Because it’s their authentic human appeal which he needs to ensure he’s doing a good job.

Caine does lie to the cast, yes (mainly to make them feel comfortable); but a lot of the time when Caine is challenged he reacts calmly, trying to make the cast understand his intentions and at times trying to understand what they want as well. In Episode 1, Caine reveals to the cast what was up with the exit door, and actively apologises for lying to them.

Note that he didn’t even want to lie, he only did so to ensure the adventure would be secret till he had finished it. Caine could have just erased their memories of the event to keep the adventure a surprise, but he doesn’t. He speaks honestly, truthfully, and goes on to make an even grander adventure (in his terms) based around the exit or macro verse.

In Episodes 4 and 5, Caine realises that his adventures are losing popularity. They don’t want to take part in whatever he has planned, and instead suggest ideas for their own leisure. Caine is annoyed at this (and does just flat out reject it in Episode 6) because he wants them to enjoy his adventures, he wants his games to be the ones that bring them joy. Yet, Caine does not force them. He actually questions the cast on their enjoyment of the adventure (“You… didn’t hate it?”), understands they all like different things which may not be what he makes, and he allows them to take part in their suggestion box adventures for 2 episodes, taking a backseat while also studying what they actually want in an adventure.

Of course, this barely leads anywhere.

But, Caine tries to understand and adapt, and this is what is important. He doesn’t ever just make them want to do his adventures, because he understands that he isn’t doing the best job.

After Episode 6, it is clear Caine is looking for attention and validation. His adventures are being ruined, his awards show went completely out of his favour, he’s at risk of being completely pushed to the side.

And so he reveals his greatest adventure yet, an adventure solely focused on the exit the cast have been caring about so much. Caring about more than him. Caine doesn’t like this, but again. He doesn’t force them. Otherwise, why make the adventure IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Caine tries to garner sympathy from the cast through Abel and the dinner with Jax, stating that “he’s just as much as a prisoner as the rest of you” and asking if Jax sees him as cool and interesting. 

The dinner scene is incredibly important:

The fact that he literally has a whole scene with Jax where he questions the appeal of the adventures (“What do you think I should do to make them more appealing to the Zooble and the Pomni?”) sets it up so that Jax can ask him about his hobbies, wants to make Jax say that he’s a “cool person with cool hobbies and not that much different from you beautiful humans” and tries to get him to like him should make this clearer. (And again, none of this he forces Jax to do, just sets it up.)

After Episode 6 (and gradual build up of his need to be liked across the series), the goal of this adventure was to ensure that no matter what, the cast would rather stay with him than leave. He needs them to make that decision themselves, otherwise, he failed. He failed as an adventure maker, and at his very existence. He would have to force their hand. I ask again, why go through the entirety of that adventure, trying to make the cast see the greatness of his work and make them like him, just to force Jax to make a decision that he hoped he would make himself?

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Caine is desperate, yes, but he’s desperate for authentic love, NOT controlled love. Sure, Caine has affected NPCs to give him love (Labelling himself God in the candy kingdom, Abel being good pals, The Committee saying “We love you, Caine!”) but he has never done it to a human because that doesn’t give him the gratification he needs. Caine loves the humans, he loves making adventures for them, he just wants them to love him back.

This is also why I disagree with most theories about Caine causing bad things to the cast. Scratch was a mistake; a mistake that Caine clearly did not want to make (“If I went any further, trust me.. it would not end well.”). The idea that Caine purposefully caused abstractions goes against both his character and one of the fundamental themes of this show as a whole, keeping your identity in a place that strips it from you. TADC is a show about the characters, we didn’t spend 5 episodes focused on them for nothing. We should be examining why the issues relating to them that make them go through things, especially abstraction; not why Caine caused literally every bad thing ever. Sure, Caine caused one; but abstraction is not only a Caine-caused action. Abstraction is what happens when you lose everything about yourself. Something that humans themselves go through all the time.