“People who claim to be endogenic are misinformed about the nature of systemhood, have most likely buried their traumatic childhood memories, and are usually not just faking” AND “I don’t want endos or their supporters anywhere fucking near me,” are statements that CAN and DO coexist, btw
As a Homura Akemi fan I am legally obligated to defend her in the court of law
Warning: Quotes aren't exact because I'm too lazy to look it up, and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted anyone's opinion
Ever since I joined the Madoka Magica fandom I have never really understood most arguments people made about Homura being evil
Most arguments are obviously about Rebellion. I've seen lot of people believe she pulled Madoka out of heaven so she can have her all to herself, control her, that she wants Madoka to have no confidence in herself, to be weak and helpless. When Homura said "All I want is for you to be happy" they believed it was a lie she tells to herself
I think Rebellion itself doesn't have any evidence for this. When Madokami descended to pick up Homura in the ending she said "We'll be together again" which implies if Homura just wanted Madoka to herself she didn't need to pull her from heaven, re-create the universe, and doom herself to be Madoka's enemy in the process
The movie was, in my opinion, implying Homura pulled her from heaven because she said "I wouldn't want to go away where nobody could find me. I'd miss you and my friends, and my family, and everyone in class too" in the flower scene. The fact that Madoka basically said she wouldn't want to become Madokami is very important because when she ascended and had that talk in space with Homura in the show, Homura asked her if this is what she truly wants. This shows she cares about what Madoka wants, so when she confirmed it isn't and her reaction was "Of course, I should have done everything to stop you back then, how could I make such a stupid mistake" she's beating herself up for not realizing being Godoka isn't what she wanted sooner
Throughout the movie we also learn that in magical girl heaven you are able to miss things that aren't there. Sayaka missed Kyoko, Nagisa missed her favorite food, what Madoka said implies she misses her family. This is actually something pointed out in the concept movie:
"I wonder what happiness is
It is the bright sunbeams of May
It is a warm family
It is sunny-side up eggs for breakfast
But heaven has none of those things
I wonder what 'happiness' is
It is having your name called by someone
It is calling someone's name
It is someone thinking about you
The Goddess had none of those things
A lizard girl could not help but take pity on the Goddess
And still thinking that, the lizard girl split the Goddess into 2 equal halves
And kidnapped one of those halves
Taking her from heaven to the surface of the earth
and until that cruelty, that gentle radiance
when it was met in the darkness... was too dazzling"
Now, I doubt this translation is the best, but the context surely couldn't have been butchered that badly. The Goddess is clearly Madoka, someone called a God multiple times in the series, and the lizard girl is clearly Homura, the one who split Madoka in half in the movie. This confirms her motivation for this was Madoka's happiness. Even if Madoka doesn't want this Homura believes she does. It is very believable that Madoka would miss her family and friends, and I wouldn't blame Homura for being convinced about this
Someone already pointed this out (I forgot who I'm sorry!!) but if Homura wanted her to be weak why is she a part of the magical girl team in the utopia she created inside her soul gem? Sure you can argue there's no proof it was made to be the ideal world for Homura, but is there even any proof Homura wants Madoka to be weak? Why do people believe this? Genuine Question. Is it because Homura prevented her from becoming a magical girl and keeps her human? That was so she wouldn't die, so third timeline Madoka's wish of not becoming a magical girl is granted, and so she would be happy
I'm also not sure where the yandere allegations came from? Like... Homucifer grabbing onto Madoka while saying "I'll never let you go again Madoka :D" kinda has the vibes I suppose. But again this is because she believes Madoka doesn't want to be a Goddess, so she's forcing her to stay on earth and be happy whether she likes it or not. She is saying that she'll never let her die and sacrifice herself again. Also Homucifer is lying about being evil. The dolls throwing tomatoes at her is a metaphor for how she's lying (you know, because people throw tomatoes at bad actors on stage)
Getting further, we have the "she wants Madoka to have no confidence in herself" argument. Back to the flower scene again, Madoka said she would never be brave enough to go away, and before Homura left she made sure to tell her that she is braver and kinder than she believes
So yeah, all of this is why I don't believe Homucifer is a toxic yandere girlfriend. There is more though. Like how people say she's evil for breaking the law of cycles system. We haven't seen if what she did caused the system to malfunction or cause any really serious problems to anyone or anything. Sure maybe something did break because of it but I've seen people talk about it like there was a confirmation this was the case, but there really isn't
"She stripped Madoka of her agency" is an argument I actually think has some merit. Madoka is no longer aware of her power or of everything that has happened. She can't share her opinion about being put back on earth and no longer being a Goddess. She does have less agency. Homura believed the role of a God made her unhappy, and that ultimately she didn't want this power, but Madoka in the end of the day wasn't asked if she wanted to be put back on earth
I see the situation as Homura giving her the happiness she would never allow herself of though. In the madohomu space talk scene at the show's finale Madokami never answered if this is what she truly wants, but when a Madoka missing (?) her memories hears about the role of Madokami without context that's when she acknowledges she wouldn't want the loneliness that comes from this role. In my opinion Homura believes that Madokami is denying herself happiness and lying about being okay with it, as well as only wishing for the role in the first place because it's something she had to do. That Madokami is lying about what she wants so people aren't worried about her, but when people being worried about her isn't an issue then she tells the truth
And I think you can probably tell why I don't believe Homucifer is selfish too, since again: All she had to do is just give in and be taken away by Madokami to be with her again, but she didn't do that now did she. Many believe Homura is selfish for what she did in the original show too, which I also don't get. How is she selfish for re-living the same traumatic events, over, and over, and over again, to save Madoka? Where Madoka actually voiced that she wants to be saved?
Sure she's doing it because of her love and feelings for Madoka, according to Rebellion and the Wraith Arc manga, but I don't personally consider that selfish. If Homura wants to date Madoka I don't consider that selfish. If she's hoping to eventually get together with Madoka I don't consider that selfish. What I would consider selfish is if she forces Madoka to date her. Selfishness is obviously only caring about yourself and disregarding others. If Homura wants Madoka that isn't selfish in it of itself. What makes it selfish is if she disregarded her well-being or feelings or something, which never happened
This is also another case where I think there is no proof. There's no proof she's only doing this to date Madoka. And again her having feelings for someone doesn't inherently mean she's an incel who was only nice to her so they get together. Homura was doing quite a lot of things that Madoka doesn't like in the show too (being insensitive and threatening people) which is why I personally think she isn't that worried about whether they get to date
Something else I've seen is people believing Homura doesn't care if anyone other than Madoka dies. This is most likely because of the scene where Sayaka rejects the grief seed Homura gave her. Homura literally says "I don't care if you live or die. I don't give a damn" so you might me wondering why I'm going to defend her here. Well, I feel so bad for forgetting who originally pointed this out but, there's a lot of evidence suggesting she's bluffing:
She's not using her gun
She's aiming for the head instead of the soul gem
She didn't stop time
She's actively telling her what she's going to do, which could give Sayaka the incentive to run away
That magic thingy of hers sure is taking a long time to fire
All of this doesn't align with what her successful killing techniques look like. If you look at how she killed Kyubey, she stopped time, fired a bunch of bullets, started time again, and instantly killed him with little effort. Why is what she did with Sayaka so different?
Homura said she's doing this for Madoka's sake, but if Sayaka died then Madoka would obviously be sad and maybe make a wish, which I'm sure Homura is aware of
Before this was pointed out to me I thought that Homura tried to kill her so she wouldn't turn into a witch. I actually did believe this would be something that was evil, to kill her instead of trying harder to cleanse her soul gem. I could understand if trying to cleanse her soul gem never really worked why she would do this, but it would still be evil. But nowadays I'm like, eh there's too much evidence she was bluffing so I don't think she was really trying to kill her. When it comes to what her goals really were.... maybe she threatened her so Sayaka would get scared and use the grief seed to get magic and fight her? And of course Homura was lying when she said she doesn't care if she dies because of the scene where she got her soul gem back
Homura also cried when Sayaka turned into a witch for the first time, in a timeline where Sayaka didn't like her and expressed it pretty openly. In the Homura's Revenge manga (spoilers) you can even see Homura cry after killing Octavia. (end spoilers) When it comes to the others, in the show itself, you can see Homura's eyes watering when Mami dies. Of course there's also how Homura decided to shoot at Mami's leg instead of her head in Rebellion, where Mami acknowledges this must mean she still cares about her. And when Kyoko died she stopped and uttered her name in that one scene
I disagree with how in the manga recap, instead of keeping things up to interpretation, like the show wanted, they made it so Sayaka really did kill and Homura really did want to kill Sayaka, leaving no nuance for other interpretations people had about the scenes. Even though I love scene 0 all those reasons listed above is why (minor spoilers) that scene where Homura tries to kill Sayaka for becoming a magical girl pisses me off so much. Just because she's Coolmura now doesn't mean she automatically went from caring if Sayaka dies or not to not caring at all in that little of a time span. They made her actually stop time to try to kill her too, acknowledging how the technique is different! Also the reason she tries to kill her is just because she's a magical girl now. She didn't even do anything! (end spoilers) Point is.... I don't think every spin-off gets Homura's character right...
The argument that Homura is evil because she'll only reset for Madoka, is one I think opens a very complicated discussion. Homura doesn't want anyone to die but if everyone remained alive and/or not a magical girl instead of Madoka she'd reset, and if everyone instead of Madoka died and/or became a magical girl she wouldn't reset. Theoretically she could save everyone, even if it's a 0.0000000000001% change of that happening because of the circumstances, so is the fact that she isn't trying to as evil as not catching someone before they fall off a cliff when you are capable of saving them?
At the same time the way she values Madoka above others could mean she isn't valuing causing the least amount of pain, making her ethics questionable. Although it was revealed that Homura is approaching 100 time-loops, which I think shows how hard what she set out to do is. If saving Madoka alone is that hard how hard would it be to save everyone? Sure if you ignore her hard circumstances she's just someone who could save everyone but doesn't, but if Homura had complete control over her circumstances she would choose for no-one to die, so is completely ignoring her circumstances really fair?
But it could be argued no matter how much effort it takes to do the right thing you should still try to do it regardless, and refusing to makes you a bad person. But when it comes to Homura's situation you could also argue there's no guarantee she'll ever manage to have a perfect loop where everyone is alive and that there not even a guarantee she'll manage to save Madoka in a loop, so is it really evil that she picked one impossible task over another? Only trying to save one person is objectively easier, and she doesn't know what choices she has to make to save everyone. But also, isn't favoritism wrong? What about my earlier example about how she would reset the timeline if everyone was alive and/or not a magical girl except for Madoka?
But also as previously stated she doesn't want everyone to die, and some would argue this would make her someone who isn't evil. I guess all of this hinges on whether you think inaction is evil or not. Some would argue inaction is neutral, others would argue you have to act sometimes. Some would argue Homura is a bad person because she's not aiming to save the most amount of people, others would argue it matters more that Homura was put in an impossible situation where she can't win and that since she wouldn't be responsible for anyone's death and isn't in control of whether someone dies or not, due to not wanting to kill anyone, she isn't evil and expecting her to save everyone isn't a task we should give to the least well-adjusted 14 year old ever
The last Homura is evil argument I know is another one I'm just gonna say has no proof, and it's "Homura is evil because she only wished to save Madoka". Only calling out Madoka doesn't inherently mean she doesn't care if Mami dies or not. (See my "Homura actually cares about everyone" paragraph) Also when Madoka only told Homura to save her, nobody was giving her any shit for not naming anyone else, so I think there's some favoritism going on here
So, do I think Homura never did anything wrong? When it's funny yes I do. But my true opinion is that she did do wrong sometimes. I think that when she was insensitive about Mami's death, threatened Madoka out of never being in close proximity to a fight again, threatened Sayaka, told Madoka to give up on Sayaka, and antagonized everyone in the end of Rebellion, that was wrong. All of these except for the being antagonistic part where done to keep Madoka out of harm's way and, in my opinion, to force Sayaka to use that grief seed to have the energy to fight her back (or if you don't believe this theory, to prevent her from becoming a witch), but they are still wrong morally
I don't care about characters doing morally wrong things though, as they aren't real people and can't cause real-world harm. The only way for media to cause real-world harm is obviously by normalizing harmful things. Is Madoka Magica normalizing saying insensitive things and threatening people? No. When Homura took off the top of that cup and told Madoka to give up on Sayaka, she got called out for it. When she threatened people she was treated as scary and not in the right. Nobody in the show ever excuses her actions, and she always gets push-back for what she says and does. They do this even for things she didn't do wrong. So I don't care
(If I didn't respond to something you said in this post it's because I have nothing to add other than "OMG YESSSS SO TRUEEE" or "Um, Idk")
@ameth-corvid @homucore
#wonderful post op. one other thing i always really like to say that she was completely prepared to die as a witch and never see madoka agai#just for the purpose of protecting her wish. i don't believe she was planning to be saved from her barrier only to 'capture' madoka again
something I don't see talked about enough is that Homura was fully prepared to die as a witch if it meant keeping Madoka safe from the inkyubeytors
OMG I should have put this in the post! Homura was fully prepared to die for the law of cycles to continue! Some believe she's just doing whatever she wants for no reason but she wasn't ever going against the law of cycles. Even when she pulled Madoka from magical girl heaven she still took the human part of her and not the law of cycles, implying that the law of cycles is still going on? She definitely did that because she believes Madoka has two wishes: Firstly, to be on earth, and secondly, to be the law of cycles, and she's trying to fulfill both
Madoka is portrayed as a victim throughout the series (and she is!). She's also portrayed as an average middle schooler with nothing special about her. You feel sympathy for her, and shocked by her decision to become a god, but, in a way, understand her.
Meanwhile Homura is portrayed as some weird cryptic girl. She has guns and bombs. She doesn't show much emotion and seems uncaring when Madoka watched Mami and Sayaka die (because Homura had seen it happen almost a hundred times). You don't feel sympathy for her until Episode 10 when she's revealed to have gone through (pretty much) the same thing Madoka did and you get an explanation-enough for why she's the way she is.
I think this is what kinda muddies up Homura's character for most people. Her first impression isn't exactly Great and we really only get one episode explaining her development while Madoka had the whole series. /neu
I get what you mean by this and how this portrayal could influence fandom opinion, although I believe Homura was supposed to be someone you can't place on a good or evil box throughout the show
She killed a cute animal creature? It was actually a virus killing humanity. She protected Sayaka and Madoka when they met Kyoko? Kyoko is someone she has allied herself with. She seemingly tried to kill Sayaka (imo it was a bluff)? She was going to turn into a witch. I think the point of Homura is that you don't know if she's evil or if she's good. She does something bad, then something good, then something bad, then something good. Because of this when you're first watching the show you don't know what to label her as or what moral code she stands by (one day I'll make essays on every pmmm episode and go more into detail about this, so stay tuned for that I guess)
@forcebookish
and to strengthen your argument about homura not wanting madoka all to herself: if she really wanted that, she would have created a universe with just the two of them. but the universe she created not only contains madoka's family and all their friends but even resurrected some of them. sayaka was straight up dead! if homura didn't care about her, why bring her back to life?
Oh I should have put this in the essay too! She made a world for Madoka specifically. There's literally a line in one of the walpurgis rising trailers that goes "This world is for Madoka". And if she wanted Madoka all to herself, Sayaka "if you touch Madoka I'll beat your ass" Miki being here would definitely hinder that lol
To be fair we have no idea if it really was intentional or accidental
personally, it wouldn't bother me if she earnestly intended to kill her - because, despite her callous demeanor and how she references madoka's suffering in her reasoning, we know that homura (like madoka) sees becoming a witch as a fate worse than death. the reason she's stuck in this loop was always to prevent madoka from becoming a witch, not just a magical girl. it'd be a mercy killing - something that she had already done for madoka. in that way, it's an act of love.
OH FOR SURE, I may think that if you look at it objectively killing Sayaka instead of trying harder to cleanse her soul gem isn't morally okay, but if you look at the situation with context:
Sayaka wanted to save people, but she's going to turn into an un-feeling monster and kill people against her will. She refuses to get her soul gem out of her ring and cleanse it. She hates Homura and won't listen to her. She's going to witch out very soon
The situation is looking very dire and bleak and Homura may not be aware of how much time she has left before she becomes a witch. Sayaka wouldn't want to turn into a witch in the first place and if she knew what was happening she might WANT Homura to kill her
Mercy-kill is definitely the right term
and tbh i think these two interpretations can coexist! she intended it as a mercy killing, but her aiming at sayaka's head, not using a gun, etc. was her hesitating and a sign that she wouldn't have been able to go through it.
I get what you mean I can SEE this being the case, but I still think there's just too much evidence this was a bluff. Sayaka is a magical girl and pointing that weapon in her eye is going to accomplish nothing. Why would she shoot somewhere else instead of getting it over with? When Homura was mercy-killing Madoka she used a gun too! But then again I have no idea what that magical beam of hers even does
#i also think that homura's decision to tear madoka from heaven was last minute#because that was when she was at her peak misery#she was still half a witch and witches lash out because of their own suffering so in her witched out mind she thought this was the only#thing she could do to make it right
Oh I LOVE the theory that the grief in her soul gem is influencing her and that's why she does what she does, and acts differently than usual in the ending! If they confirmed this it would be so cool!
@dentos-wife
she is twisted and needs to let go of her ideal version of Madoka and let her breathe
What ideal version of Madoka is she not letting go off? I think Homura just won't let go of Madoka in general whether she's sure of herself, whether she's unsure of herself, whether she's a Goddess or whether she's human. I don't think anything implies she has a favorite version of Madoka. I think she would be happy with any version. I've seen many say "Homura prefers Madoka to be timid and unsure of herself", but I've never seen any evidence this was the case. It would make more sense for Madoka to be less confident because she doesn't have an important job in the last timeline, and having a responsibility as a magical girl gives her a purpose. Homura wished the roles of who protects who to be reversed not their personalities, and even so in the 2nd and 3rd timelines Madoka is as confident as ever. This head-canon is just a bad-faith interpretation of Homura in my opinion
And how is she not letting her breathe? Are you talking about her becoming a magical girl or the law of cycles? Homura can't let her become a magical girl because she'll die, and she pulled her from heaven because she heard her say that going away would make her incredibly sad, I've been over this
Here’s what Exedra says about her love
I'm sorry but I think that whenever people or writers describe what Homura did as controlling and obsessive, they use these term's negative connotations to intentionally villainize Homura and undermine and ignore any good intentions she has. Ultimately the reason Homura is controlling Madoka's memories (?) is because she believes Madoka wants to be on earth but if she got her memories back she would deny herself of that happiness. Ultimately Homura is obsessed with making a world where Madoka is happy and safe. Homura destroyed the perfect world she made because "it goes against Madoka's wish" in Rebellion. She doomed herself to be Madoka's enemy instead of being in space heaven with her forever. All of this is the exact opposite of being selfish
In real life control is about changing someone for your own gain and obsession leads to breaking someone boundaries, which is why these things are looked down upon. I've already talked about how I don't think there's any evidence Homura is like this. I think people are only using technicalities and head-canons to make her qualify as someone who is controlling and obsessive when in actuality she barely caused any harm. I don't think Homura not asking her first on whether she wants this is good but it isn't nearly as bad as the terrible things obsession and control leads to in real life
I think that Homura isn't the right character to start a discussion about obsession and control, because she's perhaps the most harmless depiction of it I've ever seen. So harmless that using terms like obsession and control feels like an exaggeration
I (as stated in my essay above) believe that not every writer gets Homura right. I don't agree with the writers of Exedra using these terms, as I feel like they exaggerate the problem. Can't find anything saying the show's and Rebellion's writers wrote Exedra but I doubt it
the Madoka in the flower field was amnesiac she didn’t remember all the growth she went through to make that massive wish, do you think Madoka wanted to be torn apart?
When Madoka hasn’t lost her memories she has *no regrets* to the giant burden she now bears because she’s selfless and loves the world.
In the end of the day, I'm not sure if Madoka really would want to have her human part on earth (I know the example you gave are meant to show she wanted to stay a Goddess but regretting something and wanting something are different things, she can not regret her actions but still miss being on earth). But my argument wasn't that Madoka really did want to be split apart, it was that Homura being convinced Madoka didn't want to be a Goddess is a reasonable conclusion
The point I was trying to make was "Imagine: a person who loves the world so much they don't lose hope in it even after seeing it's darkest parts. This person sacrificed themselves to save it. You asked them if they're ok with leaving it and they evaded your questions. They afterwards lose all their memories, and tell you they would never want to leave the world. Would you not assume that when they evaded the question they where hiding their feelings to try to make you not worry about them? Would you not assume they are denying themselves the happiness of being in the world because of their responsibility?"
she should consider her wants
In my opinion Homura always does this. She re-loops over and over again because that's what Madoka said she wants. She destroys the perfect world she created in Rebellion because "it goes against Madoka's wish". Whenever Madoka longed to be a magical girl in the show she didn't know the consequences. She didn't know about soul gems, about what causes the witches, about how she'll become the most destructive and powerful witch. But when she learned everything, Homura let her make her wish
Madoka would and has picked the world over Homura, Homura on the other hand
First of all while Walpurgisnacht was out there destroying everything Madoka stayed in the shelter and didn't make her wish. She could have found some place private to make the wish and save everyone but she didn't. She instead made the wish after discovering that Homura could fall to despair and turn into a witch. She ran into the storm to see if she was ok, and THEN she made her wish. This shows her motivation for making her wish was to save Homura once and for all
Second of all Homura preferring a hard world with Madoka in it over an easy world without Madoka in it only tells us what her feelings are and not what she would actually do
Also in Wraith Arc Homura refused to release Madoka's witch out of her shield and her reason for this was that she wants Madokami to "greet her with a smile when her time comes", which would be a better argument for your "she would chose Madoka over the world" point, so why didn't you go with that? Have you not finished Wraith Arc yet?
The more Madoka learns the further away from Homura she goes she has to keep her from developing that’s what makes it doomed
What are you talking about? Before Madoka experienced Mami's death she was scared of Homura and wouldn't go near her. They started having conversations about what's going on only after she experienced the reality of this job. The only time they ever talk in the series is to discuss the latest problem Madoka discovers in the magical girl system. The point of which Madoka 1st hugged Homura was when she finally knew everything, and the point of which they are the most intimate (hugging naked in space) is when Madoka gains all her memories from all the different time-loops. When Madoka loses all her memories in the end of Rebellion that's when Madoka rejects hugs again. Homura cried about how Madoka doesn't remember her and how this makes them distant from each other, in the show itself
Madohomu is doomed yuri because Madoka keeps dying, or doesn't remember Homura, or she ascends to Godhood
