character development
nope that would be called successful female socialisation in a patriarchal society
Please do not use feminism to shame my interests.
I like pink and dresses and art and music and fashion. I also like blue and sports and comics and I choose not to wear makeup and have had short hair for the past five years. I am a person with feminine and masculine interests. I have not been socialized to be more feminine, I have adopted new interests, grown as a person and learned to embrace both my feminine and my masculine sides.
If you want to do a feminist reading on this silly ass comic about how I’ve changed over the past decade maybe you should look at why I actively avoided things typically viewed as “feminine”.
You’re not helping feminism by making me feel like I don’t have control over myself. You’re not helping feminism by shaming girls who consider themselves more feminine than masculine.
Thank you and goodbye.
ok so there’s a lot going on here and im sorry if i dont address everything perfectly but i’m very exhausted by this type of discussion. i have a lot to say on this topic so im going to put it in a list in the hopes of getting it all out
1. the first thing i notice is that you seem to have taken my comment as some sort of personal attack or “shaming”. its not. I didn’t reblog this from you directly, it just came up on my dash, and in hindsight i should have realised that artists on tumblr are very connected with their work but when you just see something floating around on your dash it easily becomes very isolated from any original context, so i saw just the comic and a title. its important to understand this because my comment was only on what i saw. it has nothing to do with you as a person, and my critique was of the work alone. so im sorry if you feel personally shamed, but that was not the intention, nor is it in the meaning of my words, or how this kind feminist analysis should be interpreted.
2. i’d like to explain what i see when i see your comic because it might help you understand why i felt a comment was necessary. i see in your comic what i see happening all around me, in the kids i teach and my friends and myself and adult women in my life and even in strangers in the street: females who, as girls, are disinterested in what society expects of them, but slowly over time become, as women, exactly what society always told them they would. in your title (for lack of a better word) i see what society tells girls and women what they want them to think this change is, “character development”, and not socialisation, pressure and grooming to fit a certain set of ideas that have been laid out for them since birth.
3. i’d also like to explain what i meant because i’m not sure you’ve understood. that’s probably because it was an offhand remark in a reblog so i’ll go into more detail here. femininity is designed by the patriarchy to be uncomfortable, restrictive, expensive, painful, time consuming etc. women don’t choose completely of their own accord to go through the discomfort of femininity. for example, shaving or waxing is definitely not something that women would do if society didn’t tell them they should. it only became a thing when companies realised they could profit off it. just because some women have come to enjoy it in whatever way, does not mean they would have chosen it before it was forced on them. further analysis can be (i’d say should be) done to understand that this enjoyment that women learn to experience from appearing “pretty” and feminine is because of the effects it has on the way people (men, let’s name the oppressors) treat them. a woman who looks feminine is going to be treated much better than a woman who doesn’t. when i say that women who have developed to fit this patriarchal mould are not doing it from “character development” as you described, i mean that they haven’t naturally and individually reached this point, they have been socialised by the patriarchy, through advertising, media, books, and the reaction they get from men and society in general when they conform, to believe that this is what they want for themselves.
4. i am definitely not saying that this is the fault of women, individually or as a whole. the patriarchy (operated by men) is designed to oppress us by using gender roles. i’m definitely not saying that you or any woman should change your behaviour. i’m just pointing out that it isn’t a natural phenomenon that women wear dresses and makeup.
5. i’m not trying to make you “feel” like you don’t have control of yourself. I’m pointing out that all women have been manipulated by the patriarchy. none of us has full control of ourselves! its important that we recognise this so that we can identify when it effects us, support each other and eventually become free from the patriarchy. that’s literally the point of feminism. i’m sorry if that knowledge scares you (honestly i’d be worried if it didn’t), but there’s no point in hiding from it.
6. i looked through the first couple of pages and found a conversation you had with someone about being scared of being seen as girly and i kind of want to address that too.
6.a) the reason being girly can be seen as weak is because, well, it is. like, not sure if you’ve picked this up yet but femininity is designed to fuck us over. its not there for fun. dresses are restrictive, heels mean its harder to run away or be active, make up is time consuming and expensive, shaving is uncomfortable, time consuming and expensive. i could go on, but i hope you see what i’m getting at. its not feminists’ fault that you feel this way, its the patriachy’s.
6.b) if you really think that women who conform to these gender roles are worse off than those who are gender non conforming, i’m concerned. while the gender roles are designed to punish women, women are also punished if they don’t conform. its much harder not to shave, simply because of how you’re treated if you don’t conform. butch lesbians are some of the hardest hit by patriarchal gender roles, because they have said a loud and resounding “fuck you” to patriarchy, and nobody likes a girl who doesn’t conform.
—
Ok SO that took way longer than i was expecting and turned into a bit of an essay but i am SO SICK of these arguments that are all about choosing your choice and whatnot. please can we all try to think a little more critically about the world we live in and maybe some good will actually come of it.
Again, sorry you were offended by my comment, and if you’re still offended or want to talk more or whatever i am more than happy to! i probably didn’t make any sense so questions are also welcome!
and i hope we all learned a little something here. i learned that typing with cold hands is really hard!!
Oh for the love of God. There is so much stuff that’s wrong here. Just factually speaking.
1. Of course that was a form of personal shaming. You’re backtracking now, but regardless of how you spin it, the original comment is towards OP and anyone like OP who grew to like ‘girly’ things. Because that is literally all this work is. Girls who like ‘girly’ things as the get older. Nothing more or less. And you basically called the brainwashed. Like oh shit people are into different things that literally have no impact on what they can do in life, clearly that’s a bad thing.
2. Maybe, just maybe, your friends came to like some other stuff because their interests changed. Because that’s what happens when you get older.
3. And here’s where the biggest amount of my frustration come from. "Femininity was designed by the patriarchy" First of all, the patriarchy isn’t an organized thing. A patriarchy is a social situation in which only men are considered heads of society. It isn’t a bunch of old men sitting in a room deciding how to make women’s lives miserable. It’s an evolutionary social construction that humans (among many other animals) adopted because of it’s practical application to reproduction and perpetuation of the species. After a while we realized we didn’t need it any more. Even if we did live in a patriarchy, it can’t ‘design’ anything because it’s not an organized group of people. Also, it’s not pulling the strings, because the patriarchy is a hierarchy, not the whole of society. It is a product of culture, but does not create culture. Culture, such as the culture of femininity, is created and perpetuated by society as a whole. Equally by men an women (in fact, more so by women then men in the past, since women were the primary caregivers). So any aspect of femininity is perpetuated not by a patriarchy, but by our culture, which is impacted by our society (primarily our families, friends, and acquaintances). Which brings me to my second point, MOST OF US NO LONGER LIVE IN A PATRIARCHY. Women are often heads of households, companies, etc. Women are in positions of power. That isn’t a patriarchy.
"for example, shaving or waxing is definitely not something that women would do if society didn’t tell them they should. it only became a thing when companies realised they could profit off it." This is blatantly incorrect. Please do a few minutes of research before saying stuff like this. Lot’s of women would DEFINITELY SHAVE even if society didn’t tell them too, because they like how it feels or how it looks. Shaving and waxing have existed for CENTURIES. It likely in fact started with men, who shaved their faces because they liked how it looked. Some cultures involve both men and women shaving their entire bodies. Notice how men have been just as historically involved in hair removal. They still are today. Yet do you attribute this to them being brainwashed to hate themselves? Was the first man to shave brainwashed, forced to do it by the patriarchy? The fact is, no one forced women to shave. Women started doing it of their own accord. THAT’S when companies took advantage of it. Not the other way around. Honestly, I just shave my armpits because they get itchy after a while.
"because of the effects it has on the way people (men, let’s name the oppressors) treat them." Firstly screw that snide. Men aren’t ‘oppressors’. Fucking hell. And as I said before, all societal things are equally perpetuated by WOMEN. You can’t say ‘people’ and then single out men as the only cause because it’s factually incorrect.
4. "the patriarchy (operated by men) is designed to oppress us by using gender roles." And you know what. If anyone is brainwashed, it’s this rad fem. They have been so fucking brainwashed that they can’t even fact check. They can’t even use basic observation skills to see how stupid what they’re saying is. The patriarchy isn’t the reason sexism exists. People like this are the reason sexism exists. Because they genuinely believe the patriarchy is a group of men operating the ins and outs of society. They have no fucking clue how society works.
5. Not going to bother
6 a) You just called femininity weak. Femininity is anything associated with womanhood. This is the equivalent of calling women weak. I am so fucking angry. This is sexist as fuck. Some things seen as ‘feminine’ may not be practical, but that doesn’t make the whole of femininity weak. Yes, dresses can be restrictive, but no one is wearing dresses to the gym. People wear dresses to social events where they don’t need to have all motion. They’re worn for aesthetics. Restrictive clothing isn’t inherent to being feminine either, so it’s not that femininity is any weaker then masculinity; in many cultures, old and modern, men also wear robes or skirts (the Irish and kilts, so example). As for heels, those literally started as a man item. For fashion. It started out masculine, men were the first to wear high heels (do you really think men of the past were quick to share their masculine things? Women took that shit for themselves because they liked it, and so men stopped). And again, no body wears heels when they’re running track. Make up is another thing that used to be just as much performed by men as women. If you really want to say people wouldn’t do it of their own accord because it’s time consuming and expensive, I suggest you talk to artists. Why do I spend hours of my time and much of my paycheck on art supplies? Because it’s fun. I covered shaving already and this point is bullshit. It is definitely feminists faults, specifically radfems like yourself, that people see femininity as weak. The patriarchy didn’t spend however long typing out why feminine things are weak. You did though. You sat here and basically told OP she’s weak because she likes to wear dresses occasionally.
6b) this is about the only things you’ve said that isn’t entirely off base. However, gender roles weren’t designed to ‘punish’ women. Gender roles are experienced by both men and women, and as I said before, are mostly a product of our evolution. Recent gender roles are more arbitrary, but equally perpetuated by men and women in society. Not the patriarchy of evil men.
Also, I’m just laughing at the end where you ask people to think more critically about the world. Yet I’m honestly having difficulty seeing any critical thinking here, considering how much blatantly incorrect info there is.
Christ, that radfem gives lesbians a bad name. I’m actually ashamed by proxy on behalf of my sexuality.
