~Discourse~

[loislanesmiles]

The fact that the GOT fandom has becoming a version of the shipping war in Smallville doesn’t please me one bit. 

But the similarities between the theory that is political!Jon and the “Lois Lane will die, Chloe Sullivan will take her name, her job and her soulmate Superman and become the real Lois Lane” theory are too much for me.

If there are SV fans who’re watching the political Jon theory evolve and remembers “Chloe is the real Lois. She sat in front of a name plate that said Lois Lane! Let’s ignore and demonize the actual Lois Lane” theories, hit me up.

I can’t get over the toxicity of these fandoms that support such toxic theories for the sake of propelling their preferred ship and their preferred female character. I mean, things worked out for Lois Lane, Clark Kent, and the ship. But I’m not happy about seeing a version of that grossness again.

What is similar in these instances?

[cbrownjc]

I’m someone who was in the heart of that stupid Chlois debate when it came to SV fandom. And yes, this whole Political!Jon (and Dark!Dany) stuff is totally just the Chlois shipper theory of GOT fandom. I noticed the similarities right away. In fact, I noticed it even before those theories started being made after Season 7; I noticed it back before Season 7 started with some of the theories that were being made then, especially after the massive spoiler leak happened.

One of the main similarities between the two is that both GOT and SV were/are adaptations of a pre-written source material. So basically the canon is set in stone as to what the major romantic relationship are in it. Jon and Dany may not have met yet in the book but, honestly, I’m still surprised at people who didn’t see the relationship coming with all the story and character parallels between the two. I’ve said before that I figured out the two of them would get together before I ever read the books, or watched the show. Maybe some people really did just miss it, but I think a lot of it just came down to not wanting to believe it. Maybe because their hatred of Dany (because it’s usually always Dany) blinded them to the inevitable. Maybe they’re just weirded out by the incest; which is fine, but it’s clear GRRM isn’t making any moral judgement about incest in his work, especially when it comes to the Targaryens. And he’s the author of all this, so anyone using their personal opinions on the issue to determine where the story is going wrt Jon and Dany? Well, it was always going to lead them down the wrong path wrt the Jon/Dany relationship. (And will continue to do so wrt S8 BTW).

So yeah, Jon/Dany is going to happen in the books too (if Martin ever finishes them). No matter how many times some people keep trying to put it on “fanservice” or just something that will be “show only” and still denying the reality of it, I didn’t need director Alan Taylor confirming that GRRM told them back in S1 that the story would all come down to them and them meeting was the point. 

So because D&D aren’t making this ship up, and it’s something that is weaved into the overall narrative by the source material the show is adapted from per word-of-the-author, there is a need for some people to try and twist the set canon into something that will give them what they want. Which is just like the Chlois theory was - trying to twist the set-canon into something that will give a certain group of shippers something they desperately want. Lois and Clark’s relationship, at the time SV was on, was a relationship that had over 70 years of canon behind it. From the first ever Superman comic book back in 1938, it has been set in stone who Clark Kent’s main love interest is. So there was no way Chloe Sullivan was ever going to get him in any permanent way just by being Chloe Sullivan. She would have to be twisted into someone else, made to BE someone else, for the ship to ever happen and be endgame. So came the Chlois Theory.

Now, because we don’t have the final books, this all happening in GOT fandom isn’t about turning Sansa into the set love interest via having to become someone else (because people can still happily be in denial if they wish about it happening in the books for now). It’s about twisting the two characters who are the canon relationship into different people in order to argue how a break up “twist” will happen and then get them the ‘ship they so desperately want. 

Sansa, just like Chloe, has become a self-insert character. Which is something I DO blame on D&D, because they decided to move Sansa away from her book storyline and give her Jeyne Poole’s, which makes her way more sympathetic compared to what the sample chapters from Book 6 show her doing as Alayne Stone. Just as the Chlois theory had nothing to do with Clark except to make him a prize for Chloe to win and get everything she ever wanted back in S1 of SV, this political!Jon and Dark!Dany theory stuff has nothing to do with who Jon and Dany are as the actual characters they are, and everything to do with giving Sansa “everything she ever wanted” back in S1 of GOT, with Jon as the prize to be won. (A handsome prince and becoming Queen). 

Anyway, this is all going to go down just like Chlois did after the final season of SV aired. The crack theories aren’t going to happen. And while some will admit they never expected it to after it doesn’t (even though they argued otherwise all though hiatus), I expect more will start arguing it’ll happen in the books, even though the books hold even more evidence than the show that it won’t. 

So yeah, as a veteran of the Chlois Theory and debates, I’ve seen this movie before. It’s why I’ve barely been in GOT fandom during this hiatus, because I could see this stuff coming, and it all felt way too familiar. I, frankly, just don’t have the patience to argue against crack theories that were clearly created in the same vein as the Chlois theory was. Not again. And I know, just like with Chlois, it’s going to take the airing of the final season before the majority of it will all finally just go away, and proven to be nothing but the crack shipper theories that they are.               

[loislanesmiles]

It’s very familiar. Thank you for this great post.

[loislanesmiles]

"Do you have a favorite character? GRR Martin: I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain." How significant is this quote? Lookin back Tyrion is definitely a VERY grey character in books. His aunt once told Jaime that Tyrion was just like his father. Ghost tried to attack him when he 1st saw Tyrion out of nowhere which confused Jon. And we all know direwolvs are very intuitive about people. Is Tyrion a Villian?

Yes and no. I think Tyrion is seen by Westeros as a villain. Tyrion gets the Richard III treatment in Westeros because Westeros is ableist and then Tyrion adds onto this perception until it ends with him being a kin slayer. In ADWD, Tyrion is the nastiest SOB he’s ever been. However, I don’t think GRRM writes characters as obvious heroes and villains except a very few. Tyrion will probably go down in Westeros history as a villain but I think he’ll also do a few good things too. It’ll be us to judge him IMO, rather than the author telling us what he is or isn’t. 

Ghost attacking Tyrion could mean a half of dozen things and it doesn’t have mean him being a villain but rather that he’s an antagonist/obstacle to Jon or the Starks. Also recall Ghost loved him some Melisandre. 

[loislanesmiles]

House Targaryen’s best core trait is willing to think outside the box. 

The reason House Targaryen survives the Doom of Valyria is because Daenys has a prophetic dream and her father Aenar listens to her and uproots his entire family, despite being mocked by the other Valyrian dragonlords. Despite what we think of conquest and considering all the Westerosi houses exist because of conquest, Aegon had a vision of a unified Westeros instead of the squabbling regions he saw. He saw something none of the other kings of Westeros saw and he made it happen even while respecting each regions’ cultures and traditions. Daeron the Good united all the 7 kingdoms peacefully when he brought Dorne into the fold by marriage rather than the sword. Alysanne ended the tradition of First Night, where lords could sleep with a bride on her wedding night.  Aegon the Unlikely sought to reduce the powers of the high lords and pass reforms favorable to smallfolk. This continues on with Rhaegar, Dany, and Jon, for good or ill. 

Targaryens’ core identity seems to be looking at existing social structures and saying “nah.” Maybe it’s because like the quote says “Like their dragons, Targaryens answered to neither god nor man” and obviously this trait has gone very wrong in some people’s hands. But at its best? it’s a soaring epic trait. 

[loislanesmiles]

“Plus their chapters parallel each other in every single book. They have more parallels than any other pair of characters. I think it's pretty clear they've been set to complement each other with the necessary skills to save the world. For example, Jon compromises too little in order to make peace, Dany compromises too much to make peace. They are put on different paths but their desires and values are the same.

“Really? On the other hand, I think its clear that Dany and Jon are two sides of the same coin. They have the same ideals and desires but different paths. For instance, Dany saves slaves by freeing them, and Jon saves the freefolk by "enslaving" them (forcing them to obey). Most of their actions are driven by the same instincts. I think its always been pretty clear that they are set up to complement each other.”

from the r/asoiaf subreddit about book dany and jon

[loislanesmiles]

Jon and Dany: Children.

ADWD contrasts Jon and Dany’s ruthlessness in regards to killing children. Jon and Dany both take child hostages.

After Dany takes child hostages, she grows close to them. Her behavior with them pretty much convinces the Green Grace (who IMO was the Harpy) that Dany would never hurt those children. Dany is nearly brought to tears at the thought of murdering her child hostages.

I will have two children from each of them. From the other pyramids as well. A boy and a girl.“”Hostages,“ said Skahaz, happily."Pages and cupbearers. If the Great Masters make objection, explain to them that in Westeros it is a great honor for a child to be chosen to serve at court.” She left the rest unspoken.

—————————————————————————————-

One of her young hostages brought her morning meal, a plump shy girl named Mezzara, whose father ruled the pyramid of Merreq, and Dany gave her a happy hug and thanked her with a kiss.

—————————————————————————————-

“This we have heard. And yet Your Radiance has found the courage to answer butchery with mercy. You have not harmed any of the noble children you hold as hostage.”

“Not as yet, no.” Dany had grown fond of her young charges. Some were shy and some were bold, some sweet and some sullen, but all were innocent. “If I kill my cupbearers, who will pour my wine and serve my supper?” she said, trying to make light of it.

The priestess did not smile. “The Shavepate would feed them to your dragons, it is said. A life for a life. For every Brazen Beast cut down, he would have a child die.”

Dany pushed her food about her plate. She dare not glance over to where Grazhar and Qezza stood, for fear that she might cry. The Shavepate has a harder heart than mine. They had fought about the hostages half a dozen times. “The Sons of the Harpy are laughing in their pyramids,” Skahaz said, just this morning. “What good are hostages if you will not take their heads?” In his eyes, she was only a weak woman. Hazzea was enough. What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children? “These murders are not their doing,” Dany told the Green Grace, feebly. “I am no butcher queen.”

Jon also holds child hostages from the Wildlings. And when the Northerners wonder if Jon has the “belly” to kill his hostages, he cites his own beheading of Slynt and being Ned’s son.

“It is not their children who concern us. We fear the fathers, not the sons.”

“As do I. So I insisted upon hostages.” I am not the trusting fool you take me for … nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe. “One hundred boys between the ages of eight and sixteen. A son from each of their chiefs and captains, the rest chosen by lot. The boys will serve as pages and squires,freeing our own men for other duties. Some may choose to take the black one day. Queerer things have happened. The rest will stand hostage for the loyalty of their sires.”

The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?” It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”

“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them,when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”

“None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

Jon threatens to kill Gilly’s baby if she doesn’t save Mance’s baby. This is for a good cause. Jon is trying to stop Melisandre from burning Mance’s baby for his king’s blood. But he forces Gilly to swap her child with Mance’s and it’s cruel.

“A mother can’t leave her son, or else she’s cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m’lord. We saved him from the cold.”

…

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob. “Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

“You will make a crow of him.” She wiped at her tears with the back of a small pale hand. “I won’t. I won’t.”

Kill the boy, thought Jon. “You will. Else I promise you, the day that they burn Dalla’s boy, yours will die as well.”

Jon and Dany have a lot of parallels but this is one contrast I’ve always liked.

Passages like this are why I balk whenever people act like Dany is a monster and Jon is an angel. No matter how the show has made Jon - even show Tyrion’s gotten shaded lighter than book Tyrion is - more in the mold of a traditional hero, even show Jon HUNG a child. Show Dany  (and all the main women lbr) have been cast in greyer tones but this is truth of them from the main canon. 

As an addendum, some need to ask themselves why it’s easy to demonize female characters as evil and monstrous so easily, even if the show eases your way. But you won’t do so for male characters and excuse them even when the material shows them in darker light.

[adreamofspring-archive]

Jon’s bond with Ghost and Daenerys’ bond with Drogon + parallels (x)

Happy belated birthday to @mhysaofdragons ♥

[loislanesmiles]

The similarity is that Sansa and Chloe are both characters that female fans like to turn into Mary Sues so that they can use them as avatars in the story. They are delusional about the actual story because they are so invested in this one character that everything else becomes twisted to them.

I don’t like the word Mary Sue, anon, but avatars is about right. I’m pretty tired of it. 

[loislanesmiles]

Loved the corn king meta. I agree that the most important thing about Jon being a king is him fulfilling the symbolic meaning of a king. But do you think he will be king at the end in a real sense?

This is so old, anon! Forgive me for not seeing this. 

He might be. I like doing metas and just letting those who read it decide what you think. I go back and forth personally because I like to let GRRM lead me and I don’t feel like I can say for certain.

I think there’s evidence that Jon will be king in a real sense. I don’t know if that’s a guarantee that it’ll happen. People can convince me at least for the moment if they provide a solid argument.

[loislanesmiles]

There are a lot of arguments against or for Jon being an heir and what that would mean for his claim on the Iron Throne.

But, I think Jon being a King in any sense has less to do with actual thrones and more to do with the tribal meaning of what a king is.

The Corn King is a term for a male fertility god/sacred king who dies or is sacrificed for the good of his people to bring fertility or spring back into the land. The Corn King is born at Yule, matures through the year, and dies at harvest, only to be reborn the next year. At Beltane, the Corn King weds an earth goddess (an aspect of the Earth Mother). The consummation of their wedding restores fertility to the land.

The English version of the Corn King myth called John Barleycorn is detailed here.

This was first expounded on in James Frazer’s The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion (first published in 1890). It’s been used by fantasy writers over the years for inspiration. It’s up there with Joseph Campbell’s The Hero with A Thousand Faces. 

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth is central to almost all of the world’s mythologies. FROM WIKI

Deep in the race, Frazer explained, is the belief that the king carries within himself the life and fertility of the land he rules. As such he is a living god. He may be called upon to give his life in a time of famine so that his blood may fertilize the fields anew…The Corn King myth underlies the practices of various primitive peoples and appears in mythology under the names of Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, and Bran the Blessed. The wounding and healing (or the death and resurrection) of the god/king represents (and is believed actually to facilitate) the renewal of vegetation in the Spring after the death of plants in the winter.

GRRM is definitely familiar with the Corn King myth. He even puts in a story in ADWD that is very much the Corn King:

“In Pentos we have a prince, my friend. He presides at ball and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas.” Illyrio leaned forward, elbows on the table. “Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.”

GRRM connects Jon in the books to a Corn King:

Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. ”Corn, “ the bird said, and, ”King, “ and, ”Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. “ That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

Jon dies at the end of ADWD and will be resurrected. Jon in the show has died, been resurrected, and he “took a knife in the heart for his people. He gave his own -” 

Jon is likely our "Corn King”  figure and that, in my opinion, is more significant than any physical thrones he might sit on.

[loislanesmiles]

I made a post about Jon Snow being a Corn King figure here. So, this post references that one heavily. 

The Corn King is a term for a male fertility god/sacred king who dies or is sacrificed for the good of his people to bring fertility or spring back into the land. The Corn King is born at Yule, matures through the year, and dies at harvest, only to be reborn the next year. At Beltane, the Corn King weds an Earth Goddess (an aspect of the Earth Mother). The consummation of their wedding restores fertility to the land.

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth is central to almost all of the world’s mythologies. FROM WIKI

I just wanted to make a ship-specific post as we know that Jon and Dany have both been set up as our savior figures to stop the Long Night, restore balance, and bring Spring back again. And, their convergence has been stated has being the point of the series. Does Dany fit the figure of an Earth Goddess, an Earth Mother? The Mother part is easy as Dany is connected to motherhood from the first book and first season onwards. Mhysa means “mother.” She’s the Mother of Dragons.  

Frazer, in The Golden Bough, uses Diana, the Roman moon and nature goddess (who has also been called Light Bringer interestingly) and her symbolic marriage to the priest-king Nemi “the two figuring as King and Queen of the Wood in a solemn marriage which was intended to make the earth gay with the blossoms of spring and the fruits of autumn.” Egyptian kings married their sisters and they impersonated Osiris and Isis in the rites of spring. 

In Barbara L Talcroft’s The Death of the Corn King which is built on Frazer’s The Golden Bough, she says:

Irish texts speak of the banais rigi or “the wedding of the kingship” which probably meant that the queen, who also impersonated the earth goddess,  chose a mate from among her war band and later to become the king-sacrifice. Mac Cana relates the story from Irish literature of King Eochaidh whose kingship was not recognized because his goddess-wife, Edain, had been taken away from him. Mac Cana concludes, “In the context of Irish tradition, the meaning of this is clear. Eochaidh had become king, but his kingship could be validated only by his union with the goddess of sovereignty, in this case, Edain. This union of king and goddess was at one time ritually enacted at the Feast of Tara.”

So, this part is interesting because it’s the Goddess of Sovereignty that gives the king legitimacy. Without her, his kingship is not validated. 

The ceremony so essential to the legitimacy of the king took place at his inauguration and had two parts- some form of drink offered by the goddess-bride to the king and the sexual union

Have I just talked myself into accepting Bran’s legitimacy VO while Jon/Dany are having sex? Heh.

The intricate relationship between king and Goddess, at least in the Celtic tradition, was undoubtedly caused by the conflicting emphases of the patriarchal sun religion represented by the king, and of the matriarchal earth and moon religion represented by the Goddess.

Moon symbology has figured in Daenerys’ story. ‘Moon of my life’ which Drogo called her is only one such example. The dragon creation myth is another. There are a lot of moon references in Dany’s chapters. But, there are even more moon references in Jon’s chapters. The Azor Ahai myth and R’hollorism is filled with sun, moon, and star references too. R’hllor specifically is connected to sun and stars.

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Melisandre says to Jon in ADWD  "You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.“

R’hllor,” sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow, “you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night.”

I was researching the Corn King mythology and I found the references to the Earth/Moon (often used interchangeably) Goddess and the role she plays in the Corn King story. It’s not just his death and rebirth that brings fertility to the land, but it’s the consummation of their marriage. I’m not taking this literally for Jon and Dany, but rather, that their partnership will be what helps saves the world and brings Spring again. 

[loislanesmiles]

The fact that the GOT fandom has becoming a version of the shipping war in Smallville doesn’t please me one bit. 

But the similarities between the theory that is political!Jon and the “Lois Lane will die, Chloe Sullivan will take her name, her job and her soulmate Superman and become the real Lois Lane” theory are too much for me.

If there are SV fans who’re watching the political Jon theory evolve and remembers “Chloe is the real Lois. She sat in front of a name plate that said Lois Lane! Let’s ignore and demonize the actual Lois Lane” theories, hit me up.

I can’t get over the toxicity of these fandoms that support such toxic theories for the sake of propelling their preferred ship and their preferred female character. I mean, things worked out for Lois Lane, Clark Kent, and the ship. But I’m not happy about seeing a version of that grossness again.

What is similar in these instances?

[loislanesmiles]

Watch Jon love on Arya and Bran in the same fashion and the same people getting gooey now over the trailer treat that as sibling as opposed to their sibling ship. There is no reason for us to be defensive over it and need to affirm canon. Nothing has changed lmao. Let's look to our own ship.

[nightqueendany-deactivated20250]

When all the Nonsas complain about magical-boatsex-incest-Targ-baby and how it will be deformed, mad, a vegetable, etc. …

LOOK AT THIS FUCKING ADORABLE SEVERELY INCESTY BABY!!!

LOOK. AT. HIM.

I don’t even think the Targaryens ever went so far as to wed children to parent. Did they? And Gilly…was her mother a daughter of Craster too? Does it ever say? I think it’s at least possible considering how young she is. Which makes Little Sam either Craster’s grandchild, great-grandchild, or possibly even great-great-grandchild.

How? Well…Say Craster takes his first wife (non-daughter) at 15ish, has a daughter. Craster is 30 and marries his first daughter who’s 15. She gives him another daughter who is also his granddaughter. Craster is 45 he takes his daughter/granddaughter to wife and she gives him another daughter who is also his great-granddaughter. At 60 he could wed the great-granddaughter who can give him another daughter/great-great-grandaughter and so on.

And Craster’s age is never specified. We get this description of him:

Craster’s sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. He looked to be a powerful man, though well into the winter of his days now, his mane of hair grey going to white.

Middle-aged people have grey hair. But old people have white hair. If Craster’s hair is turning white, he very well could be 60ish or even older.

And there is nothing wrong with Little Sam. He’s adorable.

Jon and Dany’s child will be just fine. Hell, after Dany’s parents and grandparents, her family is quite mixed with Martell blood, Dayne blood, and Blackwood blood. That’s not even anywhere close to how inbred little Sam is.

So can we please…get off the topic of child deformities as way to argue Jon and Dany shouldn’t marry and have kids. It’s just. Not. Plausible.

OHHH *Edit*

And I forgot to add…the amount of DNA family members share varies greatly! It’s not a hard and fast rule that aunt-nephew share 25% DNA while first cousins share only 12.5%. When a person takes after a certain parent, they have more of that parent’s genetic makeup than the one they don’t favor. Jon clearly does not favor Rhaegar, whom Dany looks like. So the percentage of DNA Jon and Dany share can be as little as 1.7%. Don’t believe me. HERE.

(and why yes, I did just become a genetics expert in the last five minutes).

The amount of DNA Jon and Dany share, is likely the same amount of DNA Jon and Sansa share considering he looks nothing like her at all.

So :P

[loislanesmiles]

Considering the arguments usually advocate for one kind of incest as being less worse than the other AND includes ableism of deformed babies, I think we can discount them. I made a post on this about how ableist and racist Westeros is because they call intermixing with other (darker skinned) cultures abominations and mules!, think Tyrion is a punishment for Tywin, think congenital heart defects are deformed and so on.

[loislanesmiles]

Jon Snow: nation building and kings

There is a connection between Jon, two king Daeron Targaryens,, and Dorne. Dorne is Jon’s birthplace and it’s also heavily associated with the two King Daerons that Jon is connected to narratively.

Jon as a child looked up to the Young Dragon, Daeron I, who conquered Dorne at age 14. Jon goes to the Wall and his journey starts at age 14. Daeron is assassinated by the Dornish around the same age Jon was assassinated. Daeron I was also killed in Dorne while Jon was born in Dorne.

“Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

“A conquest that lasted a summer,” his uncle pointed out. “Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn’t a game.” He took another sip of wine. “Also,” he said, wiping his mouth, “Daeron Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?” JON AGOT

After Jon becomes LC though, his nation building is not connected to the conquering Daeron I that Jon admired as a child. The passage below show Jon has seemingly put away his boyhood dreams of being a conqueror like Daeron I. He’s embraced other callings.

When Jon had been a boy in Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those. JON ADWD

At this point, Jon’s nation building has moved away from the Young Dragon’s and it instead mirrors Daeron’s the Good’s nation building.

Daeron the Good is the king who finally brings Dorne into the 7 kingdoms and he doesn’t do it by making war on them like Daeron I did. Daeron the Good marries Dorne: he himself marries a princess of Dorne and he weds his sister Daenerys to Prince Maron Martell. He gives Dorne privileges and allows them

More than a 100 years later, Jon Snow integrates the Wildlings into the 7 kingdoms through lands and the marriage of Alys Karstark to the Magnar of the Thenns. Jon’s integration of the Wildings is the only meaningful addition of a group of people to the 7 Kingdoms since Daeron the Good brought Dorne into the 7 kingdoms. He acts as a nation builder; he acts as a king when he integrates the Wildlings into Westeros.

Daeron the Good’s inclusion of the Dornish earned him a lot of anger from Southron lords who were very xenophobic against the Dornish. They grumbled about Daeron being too influenced by Dorne and giving the Dornish too many gains. Similarly, when Jon integrates the Wildlings, grumblings happen about Jon being “half a Wildling.”

[love-deejay]

Imagine that your argument against Jonrya is that Jon and Arya = sibling love, but instead being a Jonsa shipper. WOW. And then imagine tagging one of your posts like this:

[loislanesmiles]

Romantic Jon/Arya makes way more sense in ASOIAF than Jon/Sansa so I don't know what they're on about. Even though GRRM isn't doing roma JA anymore, he definitely left its imprint in their existing relationship to the point that both Jon and Arya use each other as templates for their love interests. The qualities that Jon admires in Arya that Ygritte echoes and Dany, across an ocean echoes, are ones that Sansa doesn't share.

[riezsouvents]

I’m appalled by the discovery I just made that on AO3 there are 3000+ more works of j***a than jonerys. is this an alternative reality??

[loislanesmiles]

Honestly, it's because that ship met 2 years in the show before Jon and Dany met.

[too-much-jonerys]

Question for Jonerys fic writers:

When you’re writing Jonerys, do you picture Kit and Emilia’s faces as you write them or some other physical versions of Jon and Dany?

I realized that I don’t see their faces when I write Jonerys but rather a vaguely-similar looking them. Jon still has dark, curly hair, facial hair and dark eyes, and Dany is still small with Emilia’s rounded blue (or violet) eyes. But it’s definitely not Kit and Emilia themselves that I envision.

Almost like two actors playing Kit and Emilia playing Jon and Daenerys. The only way I can describe it would be like fan art versions of Jonerys, which makes sense since I tend to imagine in 2-D anyway.

Do any other writers do this, too?

[loislanesmiles]

Always the book descriptions with some show descriptors like Jon being short.