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The Devil's Minion (Armand/Daniel): Metas and Info Masterpost -- Part I
This is an updated masterpost containing all links regarding asks I've gotten about Armand and Daniel's relationship (Devil's Minion), as well as metas I've written about the relationship, as it pertains to the AMC+ TV Show, as well as book info about the pair. This post is for quick reference for anyone looking for a specific meta or answer to a question they may have, as well as for myself, as the show goes forward.
You can find the original/old masterposts lists I did for this here and here.
The second masterpost list I did began to contain too many links, and therefore stopped allowing for more updates to be made to it and posted. This new post will, therefore, contain links to all new parts of the masterpost lists going forward.
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Links to other parts of this masterpost:
Part II
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Book Specific References/Questions:
A book-based timeline of the events regarding Daniel and the Devil's Minion story/relationship (created by Lixx) -- here.
No, Anne Rice was not against fanfic because people were writing her characters having gay sex (and isn't rolling in her grave over the gay sex in the show) -- here and here.
Yes, the ship name for Armand/Daniel (as far as book-fandom goes) has always been "Devil's Minion" since at least when the Queen of the Damned book was first published in 1988 -- here.
What we know about Daniel's background from the books (which is not much) -- here.
Overview of Armand's backstory and relationship with Lestat, Louis, and Daniel in the books -- here and here.
Who and what is Armand's endgame (in the books & spec regarding the show during Season 1) -- here and here.
Armand and Daniel's relationship was NOT love at first sight, like it was for Lestat and Louis. Their relationship, in fact, starts out more like a horror movie (but it gave them the chance to see, and fall in love with each other, with no illusions as to who the other one was) -- here, here, here, and here.
David Talbot (aka why the show has likely replaced his character with Louis and Daniel) -- here.
The origin of the "Boss" nickname that many fanfic writers have Daniel call Armand in fanfics -- here.
My thoughts about Daniel not being mentioned in the final Vampire Chronicles book, Blood Communion -- here and here.
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AMC+ Showrunner Rolin Jones talking about The Devil's Minion:
Yes, Rolin Jones did promise Devil's Minion, actually -- here.
What Rolin Jones said at SDCC 2022 about Devil's Minion -- here (YouTube Video).
Rolin Jones speaking at the 2024 ATX TV Festival about Devil's Minion -- here (video).
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AMC+ Universe Specific Reference Links:
Daniel Molloy's LinkedIn page, set up by the AMC+ show -- here.
Daniel Molloy's Practicum Course Website -- here.
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General AMC+ Show Devil's Minion Metas and Specs:
Why I think a large part of the Devil's Minion storyline, particularly the 4-year Chase between Armand and Daniel, as well as their romance after that, all happened in the past, during the book's original 12-year timeline (1973 to 1985); including signs and hints in the show that it did -- here, here, here, here, here, here and here. (And a gifset tags meta here.)
What I think Louis was doing while Armand was chasing younger Daniel for 4 years, as well as very likely the first 3 years (at least) of Armand & Daniel's full romantic relationship after that (in short, IMO Louis was very likely asleep, underground in the earth, healing from his burn wounds) -- here.
Why I think Louis doesn't know -- or remember -- what happened between Armand and Daniel in the past -- here.
Why I don't think it was Armand who erased Daniel's memories of their past relationship -- here and here.
Daniel, Parkinson's Disease, and Dr. Fareed -- here, here, and here.
Daniel's importance to Armand's story (a.k.a. why Daniel won't be killed off ... or at least why he won't stay dead and gone if he does die) -- here, here, and here.
Thoughts on Daniel's sexuality (with commentary about the 1980s AIDS crisis) -- here, here, and here.
About the Armand = Alice theory -- here and here.
What I feel is the most important thing when it comes to adapting The Devil's Minion story/relationship, and why -- here, here, and here.
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Season-specific Metas and Specs are below the cut:
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Season One-Specific Metas and Specs (many of these were either confirmed or disproven by what was shown by the end of the season, or by the end of Season 2):
Rashid is Armand Specs (proven correct!) with spec on Devil's Minion having happened in the past -- here, here, and here.
Shipping Armand based on just aesthetics (because no, Rashid was NOT Armand's true self, just a performance) -- here.
My thoughts on the show's timeline taking place around the time of Merrick (proven false at the end of Season 2) -- here.
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Pre-Season Two-Specific Metas and Specs (many of these were either confirmed or disproven by what was shown during Season 2):
Another ask/meta about the "Endgame" relationships -- here.
Yes, Devil's Minion has their toxic side. And? 🤷🏾♀️ This is the Vampire Chronicles, EVERY relationship has its toxic level to it -- here and here.
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Season Two-Specific Metas and Specs (written as Season 2 was airing, and were either proven correct or wrong by the end of the season):
The purpose of The Chase between Armand and Daniel in the show's universe -- here.
Could Daniel be seen as scraps because Armand couldn't have Louis or Lestat? -- here.
My prediction/meta that Daniel would be turned by the end of the season, (before the screener leaks spoiled it) -- here.
More thoughts/specs on Daniel being turned -- here, here, and here.
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Post-Season Two-Specific Metas and Specs:
Why, IMO, Armand turning Daniel out of "spite" in any way is a bad adaptation of The Devil's Minion story (and Armand & Daniel's relationship) if it's true -- here, here, and here.
Why The Chase, and the romantic relationship that came after, has to have happened in the past, if the show wants to keep to the heart of Armand & Daniel's characters and relationship, post Season 2 -- here.
Armand turning Daniel did not lead to them "getting together" or some kind of happy ending for them right away in the books. In fact, they broke up for over 15 years after Daniel's turning, and Daniel went mad/crazy (and went to live with Marius), a storyline which I feel the show could still do in some way -- here and here. (Tulane Archive scan, which shows their breakup, that was cut from The Vampire Armand book, where it was only mentioned instead -- here.)
. . . that all said, one way or another, there is something strange and off going on with Daniel and the publishing of the Interview with the Vampire book, per the hints given in Mayfair Witches, Season 2 -- here.
More thoughts on Daniel, Raglan James, and the Talamasca -- here, here, and here.
Armand and The Great Laws -- here and here.
Possible Armand and Daniel episode in Season 3 -- here.
No, I don't think The Devil's Minion has been plotted out fully, down to every single last detail, with regard to the show; because TV show writing is more organic than writing a book or a film, because of its medium -- here and here.
The more I think about it, the more I’m like they should have stopped at episode 6. And then came back with 8 episodes for season 4. I’m still baffled by the finale.
I hated Armand’s storyline, hated whatever they were doing with Daniel. These are my faves here. At least with Louis storyline it was building up to his reunion with Lestat in 3x06 and closure on Claudia, it didn’t just come out of nowhere. But loumand wtf where was this coming from.
They killed Larry for this???? My head is still spinning.
The Larry situation really bothers me when viewing the season as a whole. A lot of choices made this season were executed thoughtfully, with clues being dropped in the prior two seasons. The finale...did not feel thoughtfully written. Why on earth did Larry have to die? What did Larry have to do with Louis? Armand set up Fareed and Regina just to eventually cut Louis' head off?
Even when you think of the last two finales beside one another, you're left even more baffled by the decision. Armand is revealed in the season 2 finale to have manipulated Louis' memories and killed Claudia...then one season later you have him torturing an apology out of Louis? I really do agree that I wish they left it at six episodes and taken more time to think through certain choices. They could have gone in so many interesting directions with Armand's motives...instead we got...this.
Like, in my opinion, the only way you can play the aftermath of this is if Louis told Armand what Armand wanted to hear. And that's it.
Because Louis owed Armand absolutely zero apology. Not after the reveal that Armand did try to kill Louis and did kill Claudia.
He even told Louis here that he was going to kill him via the trial for the aesthetic of it.
Louis owed Armand nothing for that.
The episode is a mess and pointless, but I can see ways to retroactively fix the things it left us with somewhat, going into Season 4. Having Louis say he just finally told Armand what Armand wanted to hear is a way to fix some of the BS that happened with Louis.
The more I think about it, the more I’m like they should have stopped at episode 6. And then came back with 8 episodes for season 4. I’m still baffled by the finale.
I hated Armand’s storyline, hated whatever they were doing with Daniel. These are my faves here. At least with Louis storyline it was building up to his reunion with Lestat in 3x06 and closure on Claudia, it didn’t just come out of nowhere. But loumand wtf where was this coming from.
They killed Larry for this???? My head is still spinning.
So for this, I think this lends credence to my theory that the show uses yellow/orange eyes to show vampire sickness, even if they don't exclusively use yellow eyes to show vampire sickness. (But also... what if they did? We know Santiago, for instance, was made without the permission of a coven leader. What if there was a reason for that beyond just "didn't ask me.")
Not that that's necessarily going to be where they go with it, but @cbrownjc is still pretty certain that Daniel's illness will factor into why he gets transformed into LBF
Hmm.
I don't think Daniel's state of being is an indication of a vampire sickness.
And I personally do not think that there is a general sickness, either, sorry.
I think this is their way of showing how much the blood "is them".
In the books, when they lose enough blood to die, they become husks, the skin and eyes change color into transparency.
The show obviously does not go the plastic skin route.
And, if I can just add a note: I'm not sure that it will be, or that it will only be, Daniel's body's illness that will be the thing that ends him.
Yes, it could be a factor, but it also could not be. In the end, it could just be one of many things that compounded over time for Daniel until he reaches the point where... whatever happens happens, that ends up where he "dies bad."
We have no way to know just yet, especially now, given how that cliffhanger ended with him.
I know you've been holding off on discussing Daniel's character this season. The way they left his ending was very ambiguous with him against the talamasca agents for Lestat's head which Raglan got. I'm guessing Armand left to meet him at the bowling alley, but who knows what state Daniel will be in when he finds him, and the audience only left knowing from baby jenks that Daniel will be dying badly. Do you think whatever happens to Daniel will be tied into what Raglan said to him about "the evidence of the soul's existence, meaning beyond mortality."?
Hello! 👋🏾
So yes, I have to say I do not think that line Raglan said to Daniel, about the existence of the soul and what that entailed, was just a throwaway line.
Rolin said all the way back after Season 2 ended that the show had to start setting up the existence of "the soul" and what it all meant. And I think the show has slowly been starting to do so this season.
We saw two instances of it this season, in fact, with Baby Jenks in EP301, and the seance that brought Claudia back as a spirit, which is what her poster labels her as:
Also, notice she only has one shadow? Fits into my poster theory, and why dead vampires only have one shadow on their posters.
Anyway, yes, I do think what Raglan said will tie into what may happen to Daniel before Armand likely gets to him -- assuming Armand was running off to go to him (which is what I'm choosing to believe about it at the moment).
With Daniel's fate being left ambiguous, not just to give a cliffhanger to it all, but maybe because what may come next might need even more explanation than we've only just started to get regarding such things.
Such as Lestat's mention, at the end of his dream/hallucination scene, when he was fading into death, of the "Silver Threads" he was seeing, which were clear allusions to The Silver Cord, which, from the book lore, is the thing that connects the soul to the body.
And it is the Silver Cord that snaps when the body dies, freeing the soul from it. And then the soul continues to live on afterwards "beyond mortality."
Because even vampires aren't really immortal. They, too, can be killed, no matter how old they are. It just takes more effort when you are dealing with a vampire that is, say, thousands of years old.
As we are about to see with Akasha.
Whereas the soul? That is the one thing that continues on and, really, truly is immortal.
Anyway, I also think Armand knowing about the seance Louis and Lestat had Merrick do, which called back Claudia's soul/spirit, might play a role in things as well.
Right now, however, all we can do is speculate and wait. But yes, at the moment, I do not think it was just a throwaway line Raglan was saying there. I do think it was set up, and intentionally so. And set up for things that will continue to be explored regarding the topic of the soul, and what it is, going forward.
What did I say at the start of this, as to the Queen, as to destruction unleashed? Something about the regretful dead and the...hmm, what was it? Traumatized alive. That I had made a contribution. Let me take that back. The fault was mine. All mine.
Hello! Don't you think that the show has destroyed the significance of the DM relationship? Maybe I expected too much, but Season 3 left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Armand admits that he never loved Louis, but he's obsessed with getting an apology from him. He's devised a clever scheme and used Daniel to achieve this goal. Throughout the season we haven't seen any hint of Daniel's significance to Armand or a hint to their past relationship. All we know from the show is that Armand has been keeping an eye on Daniel and occasionally helping him. that's all. "It was love".. well, where is it? What are the showrunners doing with this couple? It's a pity that the actors' potential (both Eric's and Luke's) was wasted. I feel bitter about what they did to the old Daniel and even more bitter about what they did to the young Daniel and canonical DM story.
How after all that they can show the DM relationship in the past and the present and make it meaningful to Armand?
(please forgive my mistakes)
Hello! 👋🏾
So, this might be a strange answer to give to you. But while I feel very much that the show did not destroy the significance of the DM relationship this season ... that doesn't mean you shouldn't feel that way about it.
Because I think, in the end, this all comes down to what your expectations were regarding DM this season vs. what mine were.
Because see, my expectations were, I think, vastly different from not just yours, from what it sounds like, but also from what I think a large majority of DM fans wanted/expected this season as well.
Because for me? I expected next to nothing with DM in Season 3. And, more importantly, those were my expectations right after Season 2 ended, and I (for the majority of Season 3) continued to feel this way about it, expecting next to nothing, even into the Season Finale.
And, well, I already gave a long reason tied to the TV production side of things, as to why I felt this way, and why I expected what I did.
But as to what we all saw -- and saw happen story-wise -- within the actual show itself?
Well, look . . . I thought turning Daniel at the end of Season 2 was a mistake. I said so when I (correctly) predicted that he was going to get turned after EP205 aired.
Because there was just way more story to mine from his character -- and him and Armand together, in my opinion -- if Daniel's character had remained human for longer.
Hell, that was true when it came to the books. Daniel's biggest story and arc in the books, and seeing his relationship with Armand, happened when he was still human.
Whereas, in the books, after Daniel was turned? He did next to nothing.
And what happened after the show turned him?
Yeah, Daniel did next to nothing. And by the end, the season finale just had him hanging out in a bowling alley with Lestat's head, mainly, it appears, to give him something to do and put him in a position for the Talamasca to come in at the end and...
Yeah.
So many people thought that Daniel being turned meant he and Armand would automatically get together, and we'd get some big romantic thing with them in Season 3 because of that.
I, however, in honesty, never did. Because that isn't even how it went in the books with them. In the books, Armand and Daniel spent more time together as a couple when Daniel was still human than they did after Daniel became a vampire.
"Brief, incidental life as a vampire." That line of Lestat's was not a throwaway, in my opinion. I never thought so when I first heard it, and I still don't now.
Because we didn't really go into Daniel exploring his "transformational trauma." We didn't go into the little things the show was hinting at regarding his shaking or why he was taking antibodies.
His big moments were really in EP303 and EP304, and that was all.
In my opinion, and yes, I still believe this, the show never intended to keep Daniel a vampire for very long in the first place. I began to think so last year.
And, in my opinion, it is why it was something that was barely explored with him this season, I feel.
And, in my opinion, it's one of the reasons why he and Armand were kept apart for the first part of the season, and then were barely shown together once they finally did meet up again, and Armand made his love confession.
Hell, after Season 2 ended, I at first thought they'd be kept apart for the whole season until the Season Finale. So them actually interacting, starting from EP304 onward, was way more than I had initially expected.
But because all of this was things that, again, I expected regarding DM this season, the "tell, don't show" stuff with their interactions, no flashbacks with Luke, not getting to see Armand teach Daniel to walk in the sun (which as I've said before, shouldn't have been possible anyway, but I digress), never made me angry or frustrated because I never expected to see any of that with them this season in the first place.
Because even when I thought we WOULD see Luke and get a flashback with him playing Daniel, I didn't think the flashback would be a romantic one. I thought it would just be one showing the beginning of The Chase. Not the romance.
Anyway, when Armand directly told Daniel he could teach him to walk in the sun, I honestly thought to myself, "And they are not going to actually show them together doing that, or anything else, because showing it would mean having to write them actually interacting together, which means they'd have to commit to revealing that Armand is telling the truth about loving Daniel. And they are not going to reveal that yet."
And lo and behold...
Actually showing anything of them interacting together post-park scene would have meant they would have had to actually focus on Armand and Daniel's relationship together. Which would have meant revealing what the actual dynamic of their relationship was, was becoming, was growing to be.
And even reveal that there was likely a past part to it as well.
Showing anything would have meant fully committing to revealing and setting in stone that it was a real romantic relationship, revealing if it happened in the past or not, and a whole bunch of other things.
Which would have meant revealing all of that to regular viewers who have no idea about DM, and that Armand was telling the truth when it comes to loving Daniel.
It would have meant committing to showing actual romance and romantic things with the two of them. You know, the little things that we see with Loustat right now, gazes, light touching, things like that.
And I knew, from everything said and shown prior, that the show was not going to do that with them this season.
Like, I am not kidding, I knew we were not going to get to actually see anything romantic or romance-coded between them this season, and why.
That it would all be left in the realm of ambiguity this season.
Which, doing so, was always going to mean a lot of "tell, don't show" and barely showing them interacting together all season as well.
Which, again, I explained in another post, which I made only just last week, as to why I expected that when it came to the production side of it all.
And which, in the end, yeah. Is exactly how the show played it with them this season, within the actual story it presented with them.
Even Eric noted this in a recent interview about what he didn't get to do in that regard, regarding romantic stuff:
That "millisecond" that he did get to do? It was in EP304, with the showing of Armand and Daniel's vampire bond, which is the one thing regarding their romance that we actually got to see.
Because it was something that could be read as ambiguous if people wanted to read it that way. Because vampire bonds, and how they work -- why some are stronger than others -- have yet to be explained in full just yet.
Anyway, we got to see Armand and Daniel's vampire bond and how it works. They showed us their unique vampire bond; they didn't just tell us about it.
And yes, the way their bond works absolutely floored me when I saw it, for reasons that I've already explained before.
Anyway, in my opinion, we got to see that moment with their bond because it is something that makes it clear -- in an underlying way -- that there is something deep between these two. But it is NOT something that gives the whole game away when it comes to them, either.
Because, again, they never intended to do so this season. They were never going to reveal or show anything more regarding their relationship and romance this season.
Which, doing so, was always going to mean leaving the majority of the DM story ambiguous and limiting what we saw on-screen of Armand and Daniel interacting with each other.
And, as we now see at the end of the season, that is exactly what happened. And what the writers did.
* * * * *
So yeah, I never, at any point, went into this season expecting them to kiss, or have sex, or anything.
I never expected any sort of deep dive into their romance together, via story and interaction, either.
Now, because of the shooting leaks we got, I mistakenly thought for a time that I had been wrong and that they would actually reveal the full extent of their past relationship together, but I should have known better and stuck to my original gut feeling that they weren't going to do that. So the disappointment I felt about that was on me.
But even when I did think they were going to reveal that much about it, I still thought there was going to be something within the story that was going to keep them either fully apart or their interactions to a bare minimum, until the season finale.
So, I honestly never even blinked when it came to the show telling and not showing us so much with them this season. Because, again, I never expected them to show us anything when it comes to those things.
I always viewed it as something that was never going to happen or be shown this season.
So that is why, when it comes to this season and what we got wrt DM? I don't see it as having been destroyed. Because I never expected it to have reached its full construction going into Season 3 anyway.
And I figured Rolin and Co were going to play these kinds of games regarding DM this season. I knew going into the season that they were going to withhold and not show much of anything between them, and I felt I knew exactly what game they were fully playing with it after EP305.
Which is just another reason why I personally feel confident that DM wasn't destroyed.
* * * * *
However, for those who were expecting all of that? Who were expecting to see them interact more, to actually see the romance play out between them on screen this season? And for the full past relationship to be revealed and maybe even explored, some?
You are totally valid for thinking the show completely destroyed DM.
Because, in my opinion, they baited you with the expectation of seeing all of that. Likely on purpose, in my opinion.
Now, they didn't bait you into thinking they are doing a ship that is never going to happen. It still very much is, and I think that is clear about it, even after the finale.
But they baited you into thinking it was all going to be revealed and explored in full this season. That all the expectations that many people had wrt DM were going to happen in some way this season, at some point, specifically after the love reveal in EP304.
When, in truth, it wasn't even DM shippers they were writing towards with all of this this season.
Because the truth is, they've never been writing them with an eye towards people who currently ship DM, meaning they know the full depth, scope, and story of Armand and Daniel's relationship.
They were and are writing this whole thing with DM -- this season and going forward -- with an eye and scope fully trained and focused on the people out there who know nothing about Devil's Minion. Who, at most, might have heard a little something about it, but don't know the exact details about it all.
That is the audience the show was playing to with all of this.
And that audience?
Well, you can see their reactions on YouTube. And they think Armand is either lying to Daniel and/or using him, even if he might love him in some twisted way that isn't really love.
And they think Daniel is being a gullible fool to have fallen for it ... if they are not also busy hating him and wanting him dead for the revenge porn release and the head lopping off for being stupid in following Armand with all of this.
I said, I knew, before the season started, that this was the angle they were going to play, in-story, with DM, because it is the exact opposite of what the truth of it all is. Also, because doing it this way fits seamlessly into presenting Armand as an antagonist, which I was also pretty sure they were going to do with his character this season as well.
And that, only if we were lucky, would they reveal the truth of it all in the final episode of the season.
Which, they didn't.
So yeah. That is the main audience the show was playing to wrt DM this season. The General Audience who doesn't know anything. They are a much larger share of the viewing audience than those who have read the books. And so the writers were always going to deliberately play this all to that audience in a way that builds off of the "turned out of spite" comment at the end of Season 2.
And then, once that was dismantled (because it was), it would still leave them questioning the sincerity of Armand's love confession, given his actions regarding everything else this season, including with Daniel.
Like I said in my review of the finale episode, I feel pretty confident that Armand was running off to go to Daniel at the end there. But I bet anything the majority of General Audience viewers aren't going to be thinking that.
Because, at this point, they really have no reason to.
But yeah, in the end, those DM fans who were hoping and anticipating seeing more with them, seeing their romance fully play out, even in a little way ... were baited, in my opinion. And were, on purpose, being baited, starting after EP304.
Because the writers were never going to actually show any romantic stuff between them this season. And Rolin and Co. were totally playing on the expectations of DM fans that they would.
Because that is how Rolin Jones rolls, as the story Assad told in After Dark EP 4 shows. Rolin purposely played on Assad's wish and desire for Armand to go full gremlin this season by having Armand's first real appearance in Season 3 be at an AA meeting.
That story basically told me everything I needed to know about how Rolin Jones moves when it comes to people having wishes and expectations when it comes to a story he's writing.
Namely, that he starts out such things by giving you the opposite of what you want before he gives you the real thing.
So again, I knew after Season 2 that we were never going to get the full, real thing this season wrt DM. I knew things with DM would be made ambiguous and left up in the air by the end. And everything I saw and figured out between the end of Season 2 and before Season 3 premiered only reinforced all of that for me.
Which, once again, is why I, at least, can feel the way I do about it all. Which is no, I don't think DM was destroyed.
The only thing that I think is that DM is just now one among many story threads on this show that have been set up, but that the full reveal of it all is being held back until ... whenever Rolin feels ready to do so. 🤷🏾♀️
And honestly, before now, I would have said that reveal was coming in Season 4. But with the way this show has constantly dragged its feet in fully revealing things... I'm now just hoping we get it in Season 4. 😑
* * * * *
But yeah, if you do feel DM has been destroyed, if anyone feels DM has been destroyed after this this season, I don't think there is anything I can say that can really persuade you or anyone else differently about that, given the different expectations you may have had about DM going into this season than I did.
Like I said, I never expected anything that was of a real romantic nature to be shown or explored between them this season. The end of Season 2 left me with that impression, and nothing between then and the start of the season changed that for me. Even if I did, at a point, think we'd get more of a reveal of their past together in EP305 than we got.
Others, however, I am sure, felt very differently going into Season 3 and now just feel -- rightfully, I think -- sad, angry, and that the whole thing was, as you said, destroyed.
And it is a valid reaction to have about it all, in my opinion, if you did go into season 3 expecting all of that and wanted more than we got.
And, in my opinion? It is now up to the show itself to prove to you that all isn't the case.
* * * * *
Oh, and Armand wanting an apology from Louis, in my mind, has next to nothing to do with any feelings he holds for Daniel. The way that was all written, that was all about Armand needing some personal closure regarding his and Louis' time together, and needing to hear some self-affirmation that he was worthy of being loved by someone in a way that Louis could never give him.
Which, in my eyes, is ... okay, fine, whatever, but it was still a nonsense plan that Armand wanted an apology from Louis and did all of that to get one. 😒
But also, wanting "closure" with your ex before you fully move on and fully commit to someone else, finally letting go of all your hangups about love and wanting to be loved -- that is a pretty standard romance trope thing in many stories, isn't it? Because that is what the show was basically doing with that whole thing between Louis and Armand.
And which is just massively eyeroll worthy, in my opinion, when it comes to all of this with these characters vs how things like this -- in this world -- are in the books, but okay, fine, whatever. Hannah wanted to play around and use romance story clichés with all of this in a gothic horror way, so we got that. Nothing to do about it now. 🤷🏾♀️ 😑
While I havent seen the episode yet, hearing that some of the issues seem to be because of budget constraints, and having felt that some of the flashback sequences especially have been cut back potentially for the same reason... I must admit it makes me a little concerned about the TQOTD arc, if we're meant to be getting (it seems) massive levels of destruction and backstory going back thousands of years
Hey! 👋🏾
So what made the show run though it's budget before shooting was the year-long pre-production time, which was because of the songwriting and producing.
They will not have that same problem when it comes to Season 4, which is supposed to be the second part of TVL, as well as QotD. So I wouldn't worry about the budget for next season or when they get to QotD right now. All the songs for anything they need next season have already been written, so they shouldn't have to do any more songwriting on such a level again, which will call for such a lengthy pre-production again.
So yeah, I wouldn't worry about the budget for doing QotD at the moment. Not unless we hear of another year-long pre-production again.
And, if we do end up having to wait two years for another string of episodes again, (😑), it should only be because they haven't started breaking and writing the eps for Season 4 yet. Which I really hope is NOT the case. Anyway, it is not something that should eat into the budget in the way the pre-production of Season 3 did, thanks to the songwriting and producing.
Which is what I meant by, in my review, of them clearly shooting for the moon this season and missing. They underestimated the budget they would need for such a different pre-production process than they did for Seasons 1 and 2, because of the songs. And, so yeah, that's why we ended up with ... what happened by the end.
My fear about episode 7 is that—sure, sometimes shows have bad episodes. It happens. But a bad finale? In the era of television where we don't have scheduled yearly seasons? It's worst case scenario.
The story doesn't get to redeem itself with a better episode next week, and the fandom (that is already... Like This) is left to ruminate in this for who knows how long... Truly, they could've squeezed a low budget bottle episode somewhere in the middle of the season instead of making a cheap last episode. Can't understand this decision.
Hey! 👋🏾
So yeah, this isn't a wrong thought. I mean, the ep is only just going to be coming out now for those who didn't catch it on Apple TV or get the bootleg. So maybe the consensus will be more mixed in the end than bad. We don't know 100% just yet.
But as far as fandom goes, yeah, it's not going to be great.
The thing about EP307 is, and I admit I have zero proof of it, and so am only speaking via my gut here, it has all the feeling of an episode that was planned... way more last minute that the first six episodes were.
Like, from some of the chatter during filming, this season was originally supposed to have 8 episodes, but the 8th episode got cut due to the budget.
So, whether or not they were going to shoot EP307 might have been an iffy thing for a time, too.
Bluntly, this episode needed at least one or two major rewrites before filming. And I don't feel it got one. Whether because of time or something else.
Anyway, that might be why they didn't schedule a cheap bottle episode in the middle of the season. Because they had originally planned to film 8 eps, then cut it down to an unknown number.
And, given the quality of the rest of the season compared to the finale, I have a strong feeling that Rolin and Co. wanted it to only be 6 episodes, but AMC told them 7.
Because this episode just feels so messy. And one thing this show isn't, when it comes to even the episodes that aren't all that engaging (like EP302), is messy.
Again, I have no proof of any of this; it is just speculation that comes from my experience watching the production side of things with TV shows, and how it sometimes can go.
And we'll probably never know the full reason for any of it until a decade or so after the show has finished its run.
But yeah. Us not getting a bottle episode in the middle of the season (which, yes, would have been SO much better, I agree, because I feel like it would have been more planned for), but a clip show type episode instead at the end likely came about because they might have had no plans, at first, to do EP7. And then had to.
And hence Rolin's “that is an incomplete version of the tale” line about EP7 before now.
After the season finale, I'm speechless and so confused. I love and hate cliffhangers at the same time. Where do you think the show's heading in Season 4? No rush—feel free to reply whenever you have time.
Hey! 👋🏾
So, at the moment, the only thing I can really think about regarding Season 4 is the hope that it doesn't take us 2 years to get it.
I am praying they start filming Season 4 in the fall, so that maybe we can get it by late summer. At the earliest.
Because if it takes two years again, when IMO it really shouldn't...
Anyway, as for everything else wrt Season 4, I think I'm in a "Eh, let's see what they do" mood about it right now. One of the problems I have with the show at the moment is that it is forever setting up things, but rarely ever pulling the level on the reveal or the execution of them.
So at the moment, I just don't have it in me anymore to predict any reveals or whatever else they might do next season. Because in regard to some things, we've been waiting since Season 1 for more reveals and clarifications about things, and we still haven't gotten anything.
So, at the moment, I'm not anticipating much of anything except us getting Lestat's concert at some point. Since that pretty much fits into the second half of TVL. And of course, a whole bunch of vampires will die.
But other than that, I really can't say. Yeah, even wrt the Daniel cliffhanger. They could get to it right away, or they could drag it out for a few episodes. There is no way to know yet.
Sorry, I know that's not much of an answer. But given how this show has revealed its holding back regarding moving stories and things forward, I really can't make a guess on what they decide will get a big focus or not each season, except for the general overview, major story point stuff.
Which in this case means whatever remains of the TVL book, intercut with the things that simultaneously happen in QotD along with it.
And that is all I am anticipating when it comes to Season 4.
I might be barking at the wrong tree, because I know you love this ship, but after this season I don't care about show!DM anymore. I just can't root for this relationship after Daniel has been confirmed a rapist (I know it happened in S2, ig I just acted like I didn't see it) or at the very least a sex pest of some kind, and also racist (his micro aggressions in S1/S2 were already bad, but "Louisiana fried chicken"? 😬) and ableist (the vampire autism line).
Armand, a brown SA victim, doesn't need all that in a partner. I don't think Daniel can be the "love that cradles" Armand. And I don't trust these writers to be able to do that, anyway. I think the best endgame for Armand is to be happily with his children Benji and Sybelle, if they even make it to the show. Not every character needs to end in a romantic relationship. And I've always believed Benji and Sybelle were Armand's platonic true loves.
Nonny.
ARMAND is not (just) the victim you make him into here. No matter his past book or show.
Daniel is the DEVIL's minion.
This is book Armand, in his own book:
"Nice to drink his blood, to take him against his will. There is no such fun on Earth like the raping of an equal."
Daniel transgressing whichever level is NOT something Armand cares about. Though, in fact, that is part of what he finds fascinating about Daniel.
I mean, I really wish people would understand that, for all of the real trauma and yes, actually horrors Armand faced in his life, he is not JUST an innocent victim when it comes to his vampire existence.
Armand has committed a lot of real crimes and real horrors himself. Unapologetically, too.
And very much had the above opinion about rape.
That is one of the things that makes Armand's situation and character so horrifying and so uncomfortable to read about, and likely to watch. (And might be even more so going forward.)
Armand, over a period of time, was systematically stripped of his identity and his humanity.
And, over a longer period of time, it was only his identity that he started to regain over time.
However, his humanity? Gone and always would be.
Armand is one of the most vampiric vampires to walk the Devil's Road.
Armand even said the above about rape after he'd attempted to kill himself for all his sins, only to realize, in the failure of that attempt, that there was no redemption for everything he'd done, and there never would be.
So Armand would not, and likely does not even now, give two shits about what Daniel did with that student. Which, btw, no, I don't think was rape, as I say here:
💬 3 🔁 6 ❤️ 54 · Reblog by @cbrownjc · 1 image · Wondering how you interpreted Daniel and the college student that attended a guest lecture
But yes, Armand -- as said -- would actually be more likely to have found the whole situation fascinating when it comes to Daniel.
And honestly? I am getting sick of people ignoring or trying to just erase that side of Armand's character. It's there, and it's a real part of who Armand is.
i believe they're referring to when louis was telepathically speaking to armand who then spoke his words out loud, which included the word negro. anon may be a bit confused, it's not the same as saying the n-word but still has offensive use and is largely considered inappropriate for people who aren't black to say.
Oh, okay.
But... I mean. Not to go defensive here, and I do NOT want to take away from people being offended by it(!), but Armand repeating what Louis said there is... not the same as him saying it of his own volition?
Like, at this point, I wouldn't put it past the show to use certain language -.-
God (and @cbrownjc lol) knows that I have been shocked about some things that they did use when I watched it.
But I don't think this is quite the same level.
Again, not wanting to talk over people here or take away from things. Just how I saw this particular scene.
So, to give people some context and some history about this, the term "Negro" used to be the respectful way to refer to black people back in the time when Louis lived in the early 1900s.
I mean, Louis was referred to as a Negro man multiple times back in Season 1 when he, Lestat, and later Claudia were living in NOLA. Louis, in EP101, even referred to himself as a "Negro man" when he talked about how he couldn't live as an openly gay one in that time and place.
Black people in the USA didn't start universally being called "black" until the 1960s.
Seriously, looking at my parents' birth certificates used to be kind of a trip for me when I was younger because both of them were born in the 1940s, and so their race is listed as "Negro" on them.
My mom was even born in the "colored" wing of the hospital.
So yeah, Louis is old. My grandparents, who were all born about 10 years after Louis would have first been turned, would sometimes default to calling people Negro or "colored " because those really did used to be seen as the respectful terms to call a black person when they were growing up.
Here is some more historical context for the use of that word and how the labeling of and for black people has changed over time regarding it:
An explainer regarding the language policies for this site
So no, Armand wasn't being racist by repeating that word when he heard it from Louis' mind, and the show wasn't being racist by having Louis call himself that. Again, Louis called himself a Negro man back in season one.
Because that is very much the word that was used and what black people were called for a good part of the early 20th century, when Louis originally lived. And yes, it was seen as the respectable term to use to refer to a black person at that time.
After watching the finale, do you still think that TV Armand was only observing Daniel or that the writers will show that they had a relationship?
Hey! 👋🏾
So no, I don't think Armand was only observing Daniel from afar. I still do think they had a past relationship together, given all the clues that still exist, including evidence of the bond existing pre-Daniel's turning.
💬 0 🔁 40 ❤️ 315 · I think we saw a hint of Armand and Daniel's bond, and how it works, back in Season 2 · So, does anyone else remember th
I just think the show used some little weasel-wording to continue to hide the fact of it. Because "hours of observation with Daniel" can very much mean observing things with Daniel literally, as in together with him, as much as it can mean observing Daniel from afar.
Yeah, see? Weasel-wording.
So honestly, after EP307, all I am back to really wondering about is if Louis really did know what was going on between Armand wrt Daniel, as he implied to Daniel that Louis did know back in EP305. Because I now, again, have begun to think Louis didn't know anything.
Because, given the situation that Armand had Louis in, in this episode? I tend to think that Armand was lying to Daniel about Louis knowing about them in EP305, more than I think Armand was lying to Louis about what he was saying to Louis in EP307.
I think Armand was telling Louis the full truth of how he felt about it all.
Because Armand flat-out tells Louis here, in this episode, that he was only feigning being hurt whenever Louis would go off and have sex with other boys. That he actually welcomed when Louis would go and do so.
I have always believed that Louis and Armand's relationship, by the time we saw them together in San Francisco, was likely a lot more toxic and strained than even what we got to see of it. And I think we got our answers in this episode that indeed, it was.
And that he was very much only clinging to Louis because he just saw Louis as someone to help him survive.
So yeah, I think when Louis was still continuing his self-destructive behavior, Armand was off with Daniel and very much not just observing from afar at some point.
And Louis, quite honestly, might have never even noticed what was going on. And likely didn't even care if he did, given what he said regarding his relationship with Armand here.
Though honestly, whichever way it went, it might be exactly how Armand would have wanted it, anyway. Daniel, only belonging to him, and separate from it all and from everyone else's knowledge.
Especially Louis'.
But yeah, we can only just wait and see. But at the moment, my confidence is still where it has been about it all, and unchanged. 👍🏾 💕
I’m taking issue with Roling and his “that is an incomplete version of the tale” wrt the first 6 episodes. No it wasn’t, nothing in ep7 added to the previous 6.
IMO, Episode 7 was done because they HAD to do it. I think I read before that the season was originally supposed to have 8 episodes, but they had to cut it back because of money.
I bet anything AMC told them cutting back to 7 episodes was fine, but they could NOT cut it back to six eps, because that number was too little.
But they really didn't have a lot of money left for a 7th episode. Hence, why we got the clip show episode that did little to nothing story-wise and feels almost utterly divorced from the first six eps we watched.
Because yes, you can remove the entire dream/hallucination sequence and not miss anything.
But you know. It's done, and you have to find a way to justify it. 🤷🏾♀️
