Matcha Chai Latte

🩷 👩🏼 20s 🩷 🩷🤍 Nature, art, philosophy and beauty 🤍🩷

[matcha-chai-latte]

Just read gaiden 4. This can’t be the end right, there’s no way.

Bruh it really felt to me as if the gaiden was like a prequel to a new arc or something, still feels that way, can’t believe it’s actually over.

It was a great chapter but this being the point where we stop doesn’t sit well with me.

[freewilllife]

Let´s say, it is not completely impossible, that we get further stories. This is her most important work. She is currently working on multiple projects in regard to this work.

And she did not show the "typical ending", where we get a happily ever after. One of this reasons could be that there are further stories, who make it - at least - apparent, what really happened. She does point to certain events in the past. The events in the gaiden were also mirrors to other events, who had already happened.

Like you could imagine it, and the reduction and not showing Lily had most likely a point (even if I am not 100 % sure which one), but still for so many people it is a "complete" disappointent. And this is a pity.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yes we’ll see what’s up. Even if we do get some continuation, ending the main story on this note will forever be strange to me. In my head this “finale” only works as an interlude to another arc.

It’s crazy, we’ve had 2 “the end” chapters and neither felt as an end.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, there were already two ends. I don't see why there couldn't have been a hiatus, other series announcement, or the start of a new arc. It really didn't have to end here. But it did.

But yes, to finish all plot threads, it makes most sense to get further stories. Maybe the "timeskip" in the author's mind is still being formed (?) or she wants the readers to wait until it comes for a shock factor.

All speculation. Who knows, maybe we will get something in a year or two, once the anime releases. Or not. Yona did tell Hak, “not now but someday.”

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yep, I’m in disbelief about what we got. It’s sad when a great series gets a poor ending. From the author’s posts on twitter I don’t get any feeling there’s something else coming. She wrote after finishing gaiden 4 she has Yona artwork stocked up “just when I think it’s over, it’s not”, or smth. So maybe she’s indeed only waiting to finish and forget, it would explain the bad written finale perfectly. Most likely the various projects she’s working on are just pop ups and artworks.

I mean it’s still early to judge, it only ended a week ago so who knows. If there was something coming up, I would really wish for her to rest well before starting it, for her and our sakes lol, I can’t take a third bad end. It would be weird for it to be announced years later imo as it’s a direct continuation of the story, they’ll lose half the fanbase at this rate. Would be great if it were announced at least this year but published whenever the author feels comfortable😅

Literally they could make such an interesting plot featuring Yona as the new queen, we didn’t even get to see her in this role properly, only her busy study days (I guess the author self-projected through Yona). The fantasy element would be absent but a historical drama with the characters becoming adults I’d read for sure. Otherwise the hairpin disappearing in Lili’s hands for nothing will haunt me lmao, wdym me didn’t see what she did to it.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

So maybe she’s indeed only waiting to finish and forget, it would explain the bad written finale perfectly. Most likely the various projects she’s working on are just pop ups and artworks. It would be weird for it to be announced years later imo as it’s a direct continuation of the story, they’ll lose half the fanbase at this

True. the entire dragon god arc can't be resolved anyway. It's wild that the entire prophecy the series was built on ended so flat. Honestly, it wasn't my favorite series overall. I definitely did not care at all for the Hakyona or harem stuff, I liked the trio's fractured childhood bond and was wondering about the politics behind Il from the beginning.

The fantasy element would be absent but a historical drama with the characters becoming adults I’d read for sure. Otherwise the hairpin disappearing in Lili’s hands for nothing will haunt me lmao, wdym me didn’t see what she did to it.

100%. 17 years for.... that.

Are there other manga/anime/series that y'all have been reading/watching lately that does the political aspects well? (And actually has payoff)

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yep. It does feel like that’s it tbh, the author even said she managed to achieve her goal with gaiden 4 so if that’s really her goal then the expectations were dreadfully low from scratch. Lol…

The dragon arc is the worst of all, the finale I can’t even call a finale. Who could’ve imagined that after 17 years and 275 chapters we’ll get one single chapter to wrap up the main story, not even in the worst case scenario could I guess this. And then add 4 “exclusive” extra ones that don’t even add much. Like wow really. I’m only grateful that the three dragons’ ends were added and look pretty good, Soo-won’s end becomes less gloomy, Hak’s is ok to read too, but ironically Yona’s becomes pretty hopeless. I’m also pissed about Zeno’s end, all his bone deep trauma disappears into thin air in no time, now he’s a ghost character wandering aimlessly and his hobby is getting drunk. Fantastic, the depth is gripping.

Nope, don’t really read anything for now, just watching stuff here and there. If you find something interesting, please let me know too🙏🏼

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

the author even said she managed to achieve her goal with gaiden 4 so if that’s really her goal then the expectations were dreadfully low from scratch

The goal???? I'm sorry but how do we NOT see badass older, long-haired Yona with a legendary sword in the mountains as the goal?? It was the first scene in the whole manga! Anime-onlies aren't ever gonna understand our pain...

How will Yona lead Kouka into greatness?? What is Yona's vision?? What are her achievements as a queen?? I guess we'll never see.

The dragon arc is the worst of all,

The saddest thing is that the art is amazing in the dragon god arc. Lots of action, great artwork... but coupled with bad writing. Like damn. It's hard to even imagine writing fanfiction cause what's the point?? It really seems over. It's giving GOT. I can't believe AOT somehow got a better ending...

I’m also pissed about Zeno’s end

I'm also pissed about Zeno. Wtf is he gonna do with his life now that he's mortal? What's his new path now that he's lost his powers, what's his psyche on all of it? Living like an aimless vagabond getting drunk, that's not very different from how he lived for 2000 years. Careless to just neglect him.

Nope, don’t really read anything for now, just watching stuff here and there. If you find something interesting, please let me know too🙏🏼

Ultimately not sure shojo historical political dramas are worth reading anymore. That said, there are other older shojo series like Basara that have complete endings (I'm probably going to read the manga and post my thoughts on it at some point). New animes like a witch in mongolia and red river (90s shojo anime) are coming out as well, and these all do share similarities with Yona regarding the fantasy/historical/politics.

Will keep looking!

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s pitiful is that there was just one step left to wrap up the story nicely even despite the weak dragon god arc. But at the same time this last step was a hella big one, as we see there is a lot (A LOT) that was simply left out in the finale. The story is long, super slow-paced and was always detail-oriented, so its ending also needed to be all that. I think either the author understood that but is sick of it already after so long, so she just decided to wrap up and be done with it. Or it can be that she wrapped it up super loosely on purpose to end this, rest and continue in a separate story. Because without the dragons and all that, it would be really a completely different story without the previous fantasy aspect.

Logically I really can’t understand adding new characters in the last few chapters if it’s really the end, when the main characters hardly had space for spotlight, it just blows my mind. Neither leaving out so much important stuff from the finale in general. It left a feeling of incompleteness. So idk. We’ll see I guess.

Not impossible that we get more stuff and not impossible that the finale simply got wrecked.

Ultimately not sure shojo historical political dramas are worth reading anymore. That said, there are other older shojo series like Basara that have complete endings (I'm probably going to read the manga and post my thoughts on it at some point). New animes like a witch in mongolia and red river (90s shojo anime) are coming out as well, and these all do share similarities with Yona regarding the fantasy/historical/politics.

Thanks! Yeah shojo is most likely dead for me lmao. But I did hear a lot about red river and the new anime so I could check that out.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Just read gaiden 4. This can’t be the end right, there’s no way.

Bruh it really felt to me as if the gaiden was like a prequel to a new arc or something, still feels that way, can’t believe it’s actually over.

It was a great chapter but this being the point where we stop doesn’t sit well with me.

[freewilllife]

Let´s say, it is not completely impossible, that we get further stories. This is her most important work. She is currently working on multiple projects in regard to this work.

And she did not show the "typical ending", where we get a happily ever after. One of this reasons could be that there are further stories, who make it - at least - apparent, what really happened. She does point to certain events in the past. The events in the gaiden were also mirrors to other events, who had already happened.

Like you could imagine it, and the reduction and not showing Lily had most likely a point (even if I am not 100 % sure which one), but still for so many people it is a "complete" disappointent. And this is a pity.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yes we’ll see what’s up. Even if we do get some continuation, ending the main story on this note will forever be strange to me. In my head this “finale” only works as an interlude to another arc.

It’s crazy, we’ve had 2 “the end” chapters and neither felt as an end.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, there were already two ends. I don't see why there couldn't have been a hiatus, other series announcement, or the start of a new arc. It really didn't have to end here. But it did.

But yes, to finish all plot threads, it makes most sense to get further stories. Maybe the "timeskip" in the author's mind is still being formed (?) or she wants the readers to wait until it comes for a shock factor.

All speculation. Who knows, maybe we will get something in a year or two, once the anime releases. Or not. Yona did tell Hak, “not now but someday.”

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yep, I’m in disbelief about what we got. It’s sad when a great series gets a poor ending. From the author’s posts on twitter I don’t get any feeling there’s something else coming. She wrote after finishing gaiden 4 she has Yona artwork stocked up “just when I think it’s over, it’s not”, or smth. So maybe she’s indeed only waiting to finish and forget, it would explain the bad written finale perfectly. Most likely the various projects she’s working on are just pop ups and artworks.

I mean it’s still early to judge, it only ended a week ago so who knows. If there was something coming up, I would really wish for her to rest well before starting it, for her and our sakes lol, I can’t take a third bad end. It would be weird for it to be announced years later imo as it’s a direct continuation of the story, they’ll lose half the fanbase at this rate. Would be great if it were announced at least this year but published whenever the author feels comfortable😅

Literally they could make such an interesting plot featuring Yona as the new queen, we didn’t even get to see her in this role properly, only her busy study days (I guess the author self-projected through Yona). The fantasy element would be absent but a historical drama with the characters becoming adults I’d read for sure. Otherwise the hairpin disappearing in Lili’s hands for nothing will haunt me lmao, wdym me didn’t see what she did to it.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

So maybe she’s indeed only waiting to finish and forget, it would explain the bad written finale perfectly. Most likely the various projects she’s working on are just pop ups and artworks. It would be weird for it to be announced years later imo as it’s a direct continuation of the story, they’ll lose half the fanbase at this

True. the entire dragon god arc can't be resolved anyway. It's wild that the entire prophecy the series was built on ended so flat. Honestly, it wasn't my favorite series overall. I definitely did not care at all for the Hakyona or harem stuff, I liked the trio's fractured childhood bond and was wondering about the politics behind Il from the beginning.

The fantasy element would be absent but a historical drama with the characters becoming adults I’d read for sure. Otherwise the hairpin disappearing in Lili’s hands for nothing will haunt me lmao, wdym me didn’t see what she did to it.

100%. 17 years for.... that.

Are there other manga/anime/series that y'all have been reading/watching lately that does the political aspects well? (And actually has payoff)

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yep. It does feel like that’s it tbh, the author even said she managed to achieve her goal with gaiden 4 so if that’s really her goal then the expectations were dreadfully low from scratch. Lol…

The dragon arc is the worst of all, the finale I can’t even call a finale. Who could’ve imagined that after 17 years and 275 chapters we’ll get one single chapter to wrap up the main story, not even in the worst case scenario could I guess this. And then add 4 “exclusive” extra ones that don’t even add much. Like wow really. I’m only grateful that the three dragons’ ends were added and look pretty good, Soo-won’s end becomes less gloomy, Hak’s is ok to read too, but ironically Yona’s becomes pretty hopeless. I’m also pissed about Zeno’s end, all his bone deep trauma disappears into thin air in no time, now he’s a ghost character wandering aimlessly and his hobby is getting drunk. Fantastic, the depth is gripping.

Nope, don’t really read anything for now, just watching stuff here and there. If you find something interesting, please let me know too🙏🏼

[phantomrose96]

When you meet Edward Elric he gives off the impression that he's the short-tempered hot-headed "violence is the answer to all life's questions" kind of protagonist, and it's in fact incredible character craft that he's actually the character who ends the series with a negative-3 kill count.

[bayzed2024]

[yanushkaa]

[fuyu-mayoi]

Congratulations to Gulfan for single-handedly ending his parents' divorce. HakPapa and SuMama are officially back together.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Just read gaiden 4. This can’t be the end right, there’s no way.

Bruh it really felt to me as if the gaiden was like a prequel to a new arc or something, still feels that way, can’t believe it’s actually over.

It was a great chapter but this being the point where we stop doesn’t sit well with me.

[freewilllife]

Let´s say, it is not completely impossible, that we get further stories. This is her most important work. She is currently working on multiple projects in regard to this work.

And she did not show the "typical ending", where we get a happily ever after. One of this reasons could be that there are further stories, who make it - at least - apparent, what really happened. She does point to certain events in the past. The events in the gaiden were also mirrors to other events, who had already happened.

Like you could imagine it, and the reduction and not showing Lily had most likely a point (even if I am not 100 % sure which one), but still for so many people it is a "complete" disappointent. And this is a pity.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yes we’ll see what’s up. Even if we do get some continuation, ending the main story on this note will forever be strange to me. In my head this “finale” only works as an interlude to another arc.

It’s crazy, we’ve had 2 “the end” chapters and neither felt as an end.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, there were already two ends. I don't see why there couldn't have been a hiatus, other series announcement, or the start of a new arc. It really didn't have to end here. But it did.

But yes, to finish all plot threads, it makes most sense to get further stories. Maybe the "timeskip" in the author's mind is still being formed (?) or she wants the readers to wait until it comes for a shock factor.

All speculation. Who knows, maybe we will get something in a year or two, once the anime releases. Or not. Yona did tell Hak, “not now but someday.”

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yep, I’m in disbelief about what we got. It’s sad when a great series gets a poor ending. From the author’s posts on twitter I don’t get any feeling there’s something else coming. She wrote after finishing gaiden 4 she has Yona artwork stocked up “just when I think it’s over, it’s not”, or smth. So maybe she’s indeed only waiting to finish and forget, it would explain the bad written finale perfectly. Most likely the various projects she’s working on are just pop ups and artworks.

I mean it’s still early to judge, it only ended a week ago so who knows. If there was something coming up, I would really wish for her to rest well before starting it, for her and our sakes lol, I can’t take a third bad end. It would be weird for it to be announced years later imo as it’s a direct continuation of the story, they’ll lose half the fanbase at this rate. Would be great if it were announced at least this year but published whenever the author feels comfortable😅

Literally they could make such an interesting plot featuring Yona as the new queen, we didn’t even get to see her in this role properly, only her busy study days (I guess the author self-projected through Yona). The fantasy element would be absent but a historical drama with the characters becoming adults I’d read for sure. Otherwise the hairpin disappearing in Lili’s hands for nothing will haunt me lmao, wdym me didn’t see what she did to it.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Just read gaiden 4. This can’t be the end right, there’s no way.

Bruh it really felt to me as if the gaiden was like a prequel to a new arc or something, still feels that way, can’t believe it’s actually over.

It was a great chapter but this being the point where we stop doesn’t sit well with me.

[freewilllife]

Let´s say, it is not completely impossible, that we get further stories. This is her most important work. She is currently working on multiple projects in regard to this work.

And she did not show the "typical ending", where we get a happily ever after. One of this reasons could be that there are further stories, who make it - at least - apparent, what really happened. She does point to certain events in the past. The events in the gaiden were also mirrors to other events, who had already happened.

Like you could imagine it, and the reduction and not showing Lily had most likely a point (even if I am not 100 % sure which one), but still for so many people it is a "complete" disappointent. And this is a pity.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Yes we’ll see what’s up. Even if we do get some continuation, ending the main story on this note will forever be strange to me. In my head this “finale” only works as an interlude to another arc.

It’s crazy, we’ve had 2 “the end” chapters and neither felt as an end.

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

She’s left now all alone with all those people that betrayed her and wanted her dead not so long ago. Most of her friends left to be free and happy, Soo-won got rid of the throne’s burden, Hak it seems will be traveling a lot now, she’s still not even engaged to him, will be now working her ass off until the end of her days or until they come up with a new government system.

Kinda dubious but hey it ended😅

[rollzerox]

Let's break down the people Hak left her with:

Zeno: Betrayed them in the end and caused a ton of shit, nearly got them all killed.

Soo-won: Murdered her father

Kye-sook: Has ordered her death twice and Hak's once

Mei-nyan: FRAMED YONA FOR MURDER OF AN INNOCENT MAN SHE POISONED, betrayed the dragons and nearly got Yona executed

Val: The above dumbass's boyfriend

Creepy Soo-won guard (I forgot his name) :THE GUY THAT MURDERED HER MOTHER

Joo-doh: One of the people in on the coop and chose to be in on Il's death and ousting her from the castle

REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THIS IS A GOOD THING???

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

I don't even remember Hyu-ri (creepy Su-Won guard) making an appearance this chapter. He literally existed to end Kashi and dip.

And yeah, like, at least leave Lili with her?? If Lili's willing to stay around Su-Won for some weird reason and nothing romantic came out of that, she can stay with Yona.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I don’t think Lili is willing in any way to stay around Soo-won, she called him her friend and vanished into thin air for months, leaving him waiting for her lol.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, apparently she has no interest in being around Su-Won. So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? (Which she never does BTW LMAO)

Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him?

Why did it show her noticing when someone was emotionally off with him?

Why did it have her questioning him?

Why did she want him to talk to her?

Why is there ZERO followup to any of this? It's baffling that she still doesn't know he was seriously ill and almost died by the end of the series.

And yeah, I guess Su-Won really is gonna stay asexual and never tell her anything lol. I guess she will never know of his circumstances, even though she said she wanted to.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Amazing. Great build up, ZERO payoff. AOT's ending is better than Yona's. At least we got some actual resolutions. This feels like a story cut in half.

[matcha-chai-latte]

So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him? Why did it have her questioning him?

Big question mark.

For what Lili had to stay in the capital after Sei arc I can’t even imagine. Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that. She stayed around Soo-won for that to never lead to even good friendship or conversations, why was she curious about his bodyguards, about Ogi? Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Yep. I don’t know if Lili visiting him in gaiden 1 was even necessary. She called him a friend but what for, to never become his friend in fact? All we saw is that she called him that, then disappeared and never came back to visit, leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too). I don’t know what to think.

And yeah the hairpin she took vanished, all her wants to learn about Soo-won were for nothing as she learnt nothing really, and what she was wanting that for I dunno either. Lili herself is a very wasted character unfortunately

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ngl, if Su-Won is going to stay an asexual character working himself to death, then... why not have him just stay king? I don't say this in a biased way either, I truly don't mind Yona being the queen, it just had to be built in a way that makes it clear the throne is what she aims for herself, which we lacked. Su-Won had the alliances, kingdom reformation, etc. he was building up, all for it become irrelevant in less than a year.

I also don't really buy that the timeskip scene was planned the way it ended up... in the scene, Yona was being called "Princess"... but 200 chapters later, the same vision she gets, that same line is corrected to "Queen". It just screams CHANGE to me, not some clever foreshadowing.

Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that

I remember when I was waiting for Su-Won (or even Yona!) to acknowledge everything she had done. A thank you, some public recognition in front of the citizens or generals.

She became so irrelevant once the castle arc started (chapter 183ish) I think she should have marched straight into Hiryuu Castle to speak to Su-Won after the tournament set up the chairs that way at Yona's expense. Lili would have called him out on it (she would be the only one with the nerve and standing), and that would have been a perfect reentrance into the story. Not to mention, Kye-sook had already shown some signs of being unnerved by Lili, so what was the point in not utilizing that?

More Lili vs Kye-sook tension would have been interesting.

I really wish Yona and Lili had teamed up, like they had during the Xing arc against Su-Won's army and all those generals, that was the potential of two women going against a male-dominated society right there. We needed more!

Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

Honestly idek if that scene with Ogi calling him that implied that he learned it from Lili. Maybe, maybe not, maybe both of them saw him that way. He just calls him "you nonchalant tofu bastard".

In any case, maybe it was chosen to not be addressed for the sake of ambiguity (or not), but I think this whole lack of closure wasn't it. It undermines payoff, rather than leave things open-ended in an actually intriguing way.

If you say a woman wants to learn about Su-Won's circumstances, show her learning them! Like goddamn, what did she even learn? That he's a good king? Everyone knew that! The most she was about to learn was when he thought about the hairpin right before shutting her down, like yes! That's what we fucking wanted to see! Not a sidenote in a fanbook!

leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too)

At this point I'm taking the guy at face value. He says he wasn't waiting for her, so... okay. That's the answer. And who knows, he might be gay too lmao 💀, what am I supposed to conclude from those cryptic-ass words to Hak? At this point I'm just gonna assume he told Hak he was in love with him and the manga couldn't print it because of the time period (Kidding... mostly)

I genuinely don't care anymore because this ending is so absurd. This man bluntly rejects Lili, doesn't give a single personal detail about himself, yet has a hush hush moment with Hak alone that might have been the most repressed confession ever.

The ethereal lighting, the hollowed look, the "privacy"... Seriously, what the fuck did he say to Hak privately, for Hak to go O.O like that??

"DUDE YOU'RE GAY???" Forever one of this manga's greatest mysteries.

And besides, that new Earth Tribe general (younger Geun-tae 2.0) appeared and was getting well along with her, so who knows, Lili could end up with Geun-tae 2.0 too.

At this point, my only hope is an anime-only ending.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging and then Lili wondering where Yona is as usual in the final arc.

Saving their whole capital from burning and from being completely destroyed by Chagol with his dromos

Yeah, saving a capital from burning to ash deserves a whole award! Lili deserved better.

I think it came from her honestly, comparing Soo-won’s face to tofu is too specific for both Ogi and Lili to have formed this comparison separately I think. Lili has been hanging out with Ogi all the time, surely talked about Soo-won a lot.

Well, it's possible. It's also possible that she could have bought the pin too after making sure Su-Won was okay and reporting to Ogi... we don't see a thing! This cutoff.... was it intentional for the sake of ambiguity?

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Fine, but at least answer the questions about the pin?? Lili can at least learn about Su-Won too, like she was being set up to?? Concrete answers can still be given even if they don't end up!

Omg I liked the Keishuk - Lili confrontations too, Keishuk hated Lili so much he didn’t even want Soo-won to marry her in the end He looked pissed at the idea here. He even wanted to get rid of her at all as she created disturbances.

Yes! I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back. In canon Yona called out but Lili could have too. It also genuinely felt like it was being set up for Lili to learn more about the coup, how it was planned, how Yona was tracked down, hunted and ordered by Kye-Sook to be killed.

What's the point of Lili wanting to know more about the assassination details if she never learns them??

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

Another thing we never learned, how the coup was carried out! The mechanics of it, who Su-Won approached first, how he got the guards to stand down, what he offered. His mother didn't know shit about it. Plus the aftermath, the guilt Su-Won faced for letting Yona see the crime, we should have gotten that from Su-Won's own mouth!

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV of his own past, how did he grieve his father's death, his mother's death, what that looked like for him day to day. We don't even know why he's so invested in democracy now, what's shifted, etc. etc.

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

I genuinely don't think we understood who Su-Won is as a person by the end of this. Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss! (Although who knows, he might just deflect and keep certain things from Ogi too, wouldn't be surprised, he never told Lili about his illness). Ogi said Su-Won never talked about himself. Will that ever change? Guess we'll never know.

I think it was Soo-won’s final farewell to Hak, a certainty from him they won’t see each other again. Soo-won said “I even said my goodbyes to Hak”

The thing is though, if it was just "goodbye", why was it so important to hash out the text?? Like that would have gotten the message across, and would have hit harder if he contradicted himself later and lived. It's just weird. Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"? Considering Su-Won is a private person whatever he told Hak could have hit really hard or been unusual.

But who knows. This chapter we saw Soo-won running like crazy after Gulfan to see if Hak returned, in any case it shows he cares about Hak more than about anyone else (not the Griffith/Guts parallels). So idk and idc really anymore either

Yeah, although probably not as much as his father (who he was implied to love very unhealthily). That relationship shaped everything about him, for better or worse.

But honestly, at this point, if not asexual, he's probably more in love with Hak than any woman. He flat out said he wasn't waiting for Lili, yet will run across a city for Hak in canon. This is Griffith -> Guts behavior. And yet somehow, THAT relationship, the one that matters most to Su-Won, gets less closure than the other relationships in the story? Hilarious really.

Not to mention, we never even saw Su-Won's reaction to Hak and Yona being romantically involved, that too was just offhandedly in a fanbook footnote instead of an actual moment in the story. The same goes for whether he viewed Yona like a younger sister or woman. His sexuality was never explored in any depth from start to end.

Yeah, I mean she argues with literally everyone so idk what’s their vibe yet (and won’t know it seems). I’m still mad Lili is left all alone, even Meinyan’s got a bf bruh

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

[matcha-chai-latte]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging

Ah then my memory’s failing me. Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn. Why couldn’t we get more romance in a romantic manga tho. It’s like that thing with Soo-won admitting his mistakes I guess, last minute change. Maybe the author wanted for them to get together but then made up her mind idk.

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back.

Lili is better at it than even Yona as Lili is very direct and “straight to the point”. She would for sure ask Soo-won and fight Keishuk somehow. Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much.

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her, it could mean exactly that too coming from Keishuk. In any case that’s exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV

Yep, that I regret not seeing too

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment.

No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss!

Yeees I would’ve loved to see that.

Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"?

The guard was talking about the whole Yona the successor thing there, I mean Hak and Soo-won were completely alone hiding from guards so technically correct. Plus I remember how Hak remembered Soo-won and the blurred message when someone mentioned “returning”. So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. If the author was super burnt out I don’t think she’d add new characters at all. I’d bet she’s exhausted though so idk. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

...Yeah. Lili was hyped up for so much more than this.

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn

It was regarding a question about whether Lili's husband would be the Water Tribe general or if she would be the general, and how generals are picked. The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her. Now if she learned he was sick, then yeah. But no.

Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much

Exactly, Lili would be better than Yona at it. I needed more tension where Kye-sook may even consider killing her and Lili has to pick up on the signs, that would be so peak.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her,

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

But of course, if she got too involved with Yona once she returned to the palace and started actively threatening the crown... then Kye-sook may act, yeah.

exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament, and then... the castle arc just never shows the outside world for a while, because Yona is too busy reading Yon-hi's diary. We only see Lili again later on just before Chagol sets the castle on fire and people are out for war, when she meets Mei-nyan.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment. No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Yep. Hak wondered why, thinks he felt nothing, yet a ch later, Su-Won's mind went straight to her smiling face and pin. That pin 100% had relevance in Su-Won's arc, yet it's been abandoned (unless the author plans to make a sequel, idk).

So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

Maybe... I just wish we'd actually found out or Hak had addressed it with him.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

Yep, my stance as well. If Su is really ace, I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

[matcha-chai-latte]

The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

Yeah though I’d say killing a person that agitates troops by loud speeches would’ve been a more effective solution from a person like Keishuk, sending her away was even more dangerous than having her right there imo. Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament,

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc, then right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. I remember how Soo-won didn’t allow Lili to go to Ogi’s place so that she doesn’t get in trouble/arguments there, then she created huge commotion because of Yona. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted.

I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yep. At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her? Is her legacy just going to be, 'the previous general's daughter' and nothing more? What does she have in her own right?

Not to mention, Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively? For a character with such leadership and vitality, Lili deserved more prominence! She's sharp, proactive, presence... and her efforts literally saved the Sky capital! She should be super popular with them. What's her arc building her towards?

But I guess the story would rather focus on an exposition device like Mei-nyan...... sad really. In another world, Mei-nyan could have been a great female anti-hero/antagonist.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I wonder why. The author has tended to abandon confrontations between the trio almost intentionally (she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father (also the man her friend used to love) off limits. By making sure Lili never gets too close to Su-Won, the whole issue of confronting that controversy gets buried. So Kusanagi may basically be hedging, she can't (or won't) commit to writing the necessary confrontations/revelations. So, the story feels anticlimactic.

Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Su-Won was dying, and Hak was an active threat to his life. Lili? Well, she's a friend of Yona, but Su-Won and Judo also knew she was alive.

I agree sending her away was more dangerous technically, but Lili also made it clear to Su-Won in front of Kye-sook that she did not want to threaten his reign, since Su-Won was her savior as well.

But yeah. Really, what was with Kye-Sook's reaction when Geun-tae suggested he was going to marry Lili lmao? Seems like another wasted opportunity for tension.

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc

Yeah. What was the actual point of that in hindsight lmao?

right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there (probably checked out by Su-Won, yes... I wish they'd actually shown us that, as well as both of their reactions). It's pretty annoying how Su-Won was constantly confining Lili ngl...

One thing I never liked about the castle arc was that it never showed Lili actually trying to get into the castle to see Yona and Su-Won after the tournament, especially considering Yona was quarantined and everything.

so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted

Thing is, she never went back to the Water Tribe capital like Kye-Sook wanted. She stayed in Kuuto.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

For some weird reason, Mei-nyan was given more screentime than Lili in these arcs. Lili seriously was robbed! Justice for Lili!

[matcha-chai-latte]

At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her?

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively?

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on, and I’m pretty sure Kusanagi didn’t intend him to stay king from start. So Lili never would’ve joined the royal family really.

But as the story ended Lili is not getting together with anyone, and even if I imagine she did, I’m not sure where would it take her. Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one, maybe they could’ve united them or smth to rule them. Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Like literally her future is so undetermined at the moment, I have no idea where would anything lead her. I don’t see Lili being a lonely woman her whole life as she’s quite romantic the story showed.

she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute. Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Well like I’ve been saying their friendship was never that deep to begin with, they only were friends through “actions” ever since they were children, cared for each other throughout “actions” after the betrayal and now coexist through “actions” and common work. No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father

That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately. By being Yona’s friend, accepting Soo-won’s reign and seeing him as a friend should’ve already been a taboo for Lili too but wasn’t, she was kinda on both sides from start and didn’t want anything bad happen to either of them.

So with that position of Lili already there while Soo-won was Yona’s enemy, the romance could’ve been a challenge before Yona forgave Soo-won, now tho they’re on good terms again so I see no issue other than Soo-won being ace lmao. Another problem is that indeed such a romance is complicated and would need a longer story to develop it well, there would be lots of nuance for it too (like Yona learning and being wary of the idea for Lili’s sake).

But yeah, what pains me is that we didn’t see even this “friendship” of their in action either unfortunately, I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends.

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too. And when Yona appeared it seems her access there was denied (like Hak’s at the beginning) because I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status. Like, she doesn't just exist to be Su-Won's wife, or Joon-gi's daughter. Or Kurif's wife. Or Yona's friend. It'd be cool if she got with someone, but Lili shouldn't elevate her position only in relation to others.

Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Well, Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals... but it would have been interesting if Su-Won ever left his position and started living in the Water Tribe... although, rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute.

Yep, this is so ironic, with all the focus on SuHak we got.

Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Yeah, she didn't. The story builds up a lot of internal rage/grief from her, even with her political growth. But there's a fundamental lack of true payoff where she made Su-Won truly face the consequences of his actions.

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate"

"yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now"

"yessir"

what's this customer service to govt group project pipeline?? 😭

No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su! I still feel like this dynamic deserved better, especially considering Hak is implied to be the most important person to Su-Won rn...

I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends. That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately

Yep, it could have really developed Lili's character. Yona never learned that Lili was hanging out at the castle either.

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too.

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair. I would have liked to see her pass through Yona's room, or wonder where ll was assasinated, where she was staying, etc.

I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder

I'd have liked to see that tbh. Both right before the castle arc, if we saw Kye-sook check her out, or during the castle arc, if she tried to get into the castle to question Su-Won and Yona and was prevented. She needed more involvement.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me. Joon-gi didn’t show himself as a good tribe leader even, he resembled Il in his passivity and pacifism. Honestly it’s a surprise he supported Yuhon and Soo-won with that approach.

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc, the rest I’m not sure why we kept seeing her for as it never paid off. But Tae-jun like I once said had good closure, he stayed in his tribe, became a good leader and activist, is doing stuff there. Lili though? What was she doing in the capital when she should’ve been working in the water tribe I’m not quite sure. Now she’s kind of in the middle of nowhere, not important to the castle, not visibly leading anything in the water tribe. I don’t understand her character’s purpose then🤷‍♀️

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore. So to me it’s seems that the only “royalty” aka royal family will from now on be Yona and her future husband/children (bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then). So to me Soo-won is no more than related to the royal family but not part of it. But idk that’s for the author to specify.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status

Another thing is I’m not sure it would even in any way elevate her status. Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe at the moment but not like we saw her working there like Yona is in the capital

Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals

Geez but if not the water tribe’s next general, then who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

Yep for now he for sure is staying the counselor, I wish we at least saw him be one, not being a spider locked up in his room

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate / "yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now" /"yessir"

Lmao accurate

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su!

I meant more their trio friendship not Hak/Soo-won specifically. But if we compare then of course in comparison to the shallow Soo-won/Yona friendship, Soo-won and Hak’s was always way deeper, they understand each other’s behavior and way of thinking very well. But by deep talks I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect, Yona never did about either of them (before betrayal).

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair

Yeah I know but from Soo-won’s words remarks I understood that she was.

She had a room of her own there. I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright? Urgh so many weird unanswered things

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc

Yep this sucks 😭 Tae-jun was harassing Yona for years, Lili was her first and best female friend, why do they get the same treatment?? Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me.

Yes, though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious. Lili was impulsive and willing to act, so she took more initiative. But again, she had the hallmarks of a leader.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore.

In Japanese, "lord" is simply the English substitute for the "-sama" honorific suffix, so it's not very informative. Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

(bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then).

....Gosh I don't want to know, that'll be a bigger asspull than Yona being queen. Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

Yep, she's likely staying in the Water Tribe. I don't know what she'll be doing there though if not general either 🫠

not being a spider locked up in his room

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last 🤣

I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect

Yep, Hak reflected on Su-Won and so the fallout of their relationship in particular should be discussed. All they talked about is the country or betrayal. But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

I "think" the ribbon he wears in his ponytail is a keepsake of hers, worn in honor. Like that's speculation because we don't know shit.

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe. Who, what relatives?? The crimson illness clan?? Hyu-ri's family lmao?? Apparently he didn't read Yonhi's diary until after he killed Il, and the way he spoke to Mei-nyan in ch 204 implied that he hadn't known he was a Hiryuu descendant until after he read it.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

What's Su-Won's interior life?? Where's his POV?? Again we did not learn enough about this character. Su's POV arc was needed.

She had a room of her own there.

Yes, I agree. I would have liked to see where she stayed, etc.

I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright?

LMAO, would have loved to see that. Doubt she would have if so.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Yes, loved her in Xing too but after that I’m not sure what she stayed for. What were reflections about Soo-won, taking the hairpin and her constant presence with Ogi for I’m not sure. Nothing played out.

though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious

Yeah I don’t think he’s hopeless, he has that inner strength in him but his cautiousness was more passivity, he was for some reason shown waiting for Soo-won to sort things out for him. Though to be fair we weren’t shown if he was doing something independently.

Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

We lack info on it but I think having royal blood doesn’t necessarily equal to being officially part of the royal family. And as Kusanagi mentioned Joon-gi wanting Lili in the royal family, it’s about the benefit it brings. By marrying Soo-won the king, Lili would’ve become royalty herself, as would her children, that’s why Joon-gi wished for it. Now that Soo-won’s not king his royal blood doesn’t really mean anything, we can see it as Joon-gi doesn’t want Lili to marry Soo-won anymore, because even if she does, nothing will change for her status. So it makes me think Soo-won is not considered royalty by anyone, in any case it means nothing.

Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

That’s why I’m curious. They’ll marry someday eventually, it’s inevitable (unless they stay in their long-distance situationship forever lol). Marrying the queen means Hak will be king, whether they want it or not, that’s how it works, no? It wasn’t shown so that Yona gets her showtime as queen, so I’m guessing they’ll get married only years later now, I understand it but what next? Will Hak become king or the royal concubine? Or some new role they make up for him? Can’t help but wonder.

On one hand I like that Hak is finally not glued to Yona, has a “dream” of his own, to travel, to see things, so on. It’s great. But again this point of his life feels intermediary, he won’t be doing it forever, so to end the story on that…idk feels so weird.

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last

Lmao true. But I was also curious to see Soo-won the counselor in action too, his tandem with Yona and Keishuk on meetings, diplomatic missions, etc.

But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Exactly, I feel like it was too important to never discuss but whatever, Hak just waved it off and left into the sunset. Bro tired.

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

Yeah sorry but how can the death of the infamous Lord Yuhon’s wife be kept a secret, why was no one aware. I think Soo-won was stunned and maybe didn’t even want to talk about it but really how come it was not a big news and a fact everyone knew about. It’s kind of a huge thing no, so how?😅

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe.

At this point I think this was a blatant lie and Soo-won was just meeting up with people for the future coup planning. He read the diary only after his coronation so it wasn’t the clan, and he has no other relatives so it’s the only thing that comes to my mind.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

Yeah we only saw them comfort Yona but already months (or even one month) later Yuhon died. I think Soo-won was behaving like he did with Yong-hi, continued smiling and all, so they expressed condolences but it was pretty much it I think, Soo-won wouldn’t open up to them about anything as he hated Il with his whole heart and already wanted him dead (lol).

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

We lack info on it but I think having royal blood doesn’t necessarily equal to being officially part of the royal family. makes me think Soo-won is not considered royalty by anyone

Hen-dae literally says, "Oh, it's Lord Su-Won, Hak is lucky to have friends in the royal family"... they're obviously not talking about Yona. It is true that the story doesn't go into it much. There's also a statement Kusanagi made explaining that Judo is not royalty like Yona or Su-Won.

I think Su-Won IS still considered royalty, but like of a branch family, not the inheriting line.

Joon-gi doesn’t want Lili to marry Soo-won anymore, because even if she does, nothing will change for her status

I think Joon-gi especially wanted Lili to be queen by marrying the main royal line. But he was already asking Su-Won to marry her even when he wasn't the king. But yeah, potential plothole?

Marrying the queen means Hak will be king, whether they want it or not, that’s how it works, no? Will Hak become king or the royal concubine? Or some new role they make up for him? Can’t help but wonder.

Yona is queen regnant, so that means Hak has to be like a king-consort, otherwise it kind of undermines the whole "revolutionary feminist" ending the writer seems to have had in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if the story avoids calling him king and they'll make a new role for him, something different from king at least. Kye-sook's line implied it to me.

I like that Hak is finally not glued to Yona, has a “dream” of his own, to travel, to see things, so on.

I dunno, I see him as still being tied to her, because his dream is to be her eyes and make sure her rule reaches the people, it's not really about himself. Still his solo trips were always nice, yes.

curious to see Soo-won the counselor in action too, his tandem with Yona and Keishuk on meetings, diplomatic missions, etc.

Same, really felt like the start of a new arc cut short.

Hak just waved it off and left into the sunset. Bro tired.

The guy is seriously out of the loop. He didn't know Su-Won killed for revenge until the castle arc, so what, was he thinking Su-Won did it for the love of the game lmao? Even now Hak doesn't know why Il killed Yu-Hon. I really thought we were going to get an arc of Hak realizing the dark sides of Il, especially after the flashback where he recognized Il wasn't a coward, along with Judo telling Hak: "there are many things King Il didn't tell you" and Hak admitting he didn't really know King Il. Felt like an obvious setup to me, never went anywhere.

how can the death of the infamous Lord Yuhon’s wife be kept a secret, why was no one aware

Right?? The citizens revered Yu-Hon crazily, he was the hero of Kouka's military, no way they wouldn't wonder where his wife and child are was. Yona and Hak never even were curious about her existence until the castle arc, which I found VERY unrealistic. I was wondering about her from the very beginning.

Also, the fact that we don't even know where Il's body is insane. That alone is enough to find Yona and Su-Won's "resolution" completely surreal. Like you're telling me she can have calm and casual conversations with Su-Won without EVER demanding to know wtf he did with her dad's body?? How does this not come up?? This is basic closure 101! I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was something unhinged, like he fed Il's body to dogs or some shit lmao.

At this point I think this was a blatant lie and Soo-won was just meeting up with people for the future coup planning

Possible, but it wasn't shown. Needed the pov arc.

I think Soo-won was behaving like he did with Yong-hi, continued smiling and all, so they expressed condolences but it was pretty much it I think, Soo-won wouldn’t open up to them about anything as he hated Il with his whole heart and already wanted him dead (lol).

Yeah, but kind of a wasted goldmine of potential flashbacks imo. We were really robbed of the psychology behind it all.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I think Su-Won IS still considered royalty, but like of a branch family, not the inheriting line.

I think Joon-gi especially wanted Lili to be queen by marrying the main royal line. But he was already asking Su-Won to marry her even when he wasn't the king.

Matter of terminology if Soo-won is real royalty or not. If he is then it’s very strange he has no special title or anything, just lord “-sama” makes him no higher in position than Lili or Hak, if he was royalty than he was supposed to be. He is royalty biologically but status wise it’s no special thing then.

I mean I think that’s exactly what Kusanagi meant by Lili joining the royal family, probably referring to Lili becoming royalty herself, which was only possible through Soo-won as king, which is what Joon-gi wanted. If Soo-won’s current position was still something prestigious, then Joon-gi would’ve continued wanting Lili and Soo-won together, no? As he doesn’t, then it brings Lili nothing anymore, otherwise Joon-gi would’ve continued rooting for it.

Honestly it is kinda strange as marrying even a distant family member of a monarch was normally super luxurious and desired amongst nobles, and Soo-won is not even that distant.

And I’m not sure about the translation of that moment, in another version Soo-won tells Lili Joon-gi wanted her as Soo-won’s queen. I kinda suspect Joon-gi was aware of Soo-won’s future coup, so he knew in the future he’d become king and Lili could be then his queen. But idk whatever.

Hak has to be like a king-consort, otherwise it kind of undermines the whole "revolutionary feminist" ending the writer seems to have had in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if the story avoids calling him king and they'll make a new role for him, something different from king at least.

Yeah most likely, whenever they marry as soon as Hak becomes official king, everyone will forget about Yona the queen, so they probably can’t do it. He’ll be the “queen’s heart” then lol

I see him as still being tied to her, because his dream is to be her eyes and make sure her rule reaches the people, it's not really about himself

True but for a person like him it’s already good progress. Earlier he couldn’t imagine not following her around all the time, now he leaves her confidently to go to places far away alone, even if it is partially for her.

Not too bad, except he suddenly leaves her in a place full of traitors who are not too trustworthy but ok. He left Il and Yona once with them and look what happened, what made him think they changed completely and forever I dunno. They’ll never be their friends like the dragons, like I said if Yona stops being useful, they’ll betray her again and won’t even blink. That’s what dubious, especially with a person who had trust issues as deep as Hak. I’d understand if Yona was surrounded by loyal friends there but not really, is she.

He didn't know Su-Won killed for revenge until the castle arc, so what, was he thinking Su-Won did it for the love of the game lmao? Even now Hak doesn't know why Il killed Yu-Hon.

Yep I hate that Hak doesn’t know anything still as he was shown wondering about “why” all the time. It’s very unfair to him.

Yona and Hak never even were curious about her existence until the castle arc, which I found VERY unrealistic

Lol yes. Especially Yona, she has seen Yong-hi since childhood, she knew she was sick too. Did she never ask Soo-won how she was doing? Did he just keep telling her yeah she’s chilling while she was rotting in her grave for yet another year? Kinda creepy then ngl. Or did Yona never even ask?

I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was something unhinged, like he fed Il's body to dogs or some shit lmao.

Lmao that’s actually exactly my bet, he hated Il so much after all and was anti-religious so why wouldn’t he. But yeah if I were Yona I’d also be curious🤷‍♀️

Off topic but I hugely mourn we never had a time-skip to Yona as an adult with fully grown hair. I was always convinced that would be her final finale, seeing Yona a beautiful badass queen, an independent inspiring leader, still a warrior with that legendary sword. But we got a worked up little girl that runs around Soo-won for advice all the time. That’s it?

Such a plain pathetic end for her character we got really.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Matter of terminology if Soo-won is real royalty or not. If he is then it’s very strange he has no special title or anything, just lord “-sama” makes him no higher in position than Lili or Hak Honestly it is kinda strange as marrying even a distant family member of a monarch was normally super luxurious and desired amongst nobles, and Soo-won is not even that distant. But idk whatever.

Yeah. Well, it's not really explored that well, is it? Hak, Mundok, other people of the Wind Tribe and other tribes called him "-sama".

And the switch up and his status is not explained well. At this point the political side of is underdeveloped, so it's whatevs ig.

I kinda suspect Joon-gi was aware of Soo-won’s future coup, so he knew in the future he’d become king and Lili could be then his queen

...If he knew, why tf is Yona on good terms with Joon-gi lol? Like, Geun-tae was given more of a pass than Judo because he wasn't involved. I would assume Joon-gi was similar.

He’ll be the “queen’s heart” then lol

Ah, cringe.

now he leaves her confidently to go to places far away alone, even if it is partially for her. like I said if Yona stops being useful, they’ll betray her again and won’t even blink. That’s what dubious

Well he's already had solo trips like this, it's not the first time. But yes, it's better for him. Still agreed, dubious with traitors.

as he was shown wondering about “why” all the time. It’s very unfair to him

100%! The moment after he attacked Su-Won Sensui I was like, "Give this man all the info he needs!" But what does Yona do? She calms him down with, "I'm all right", like girl HAK is not!

Lol yes. Especially Yona, she has seen Yong-hi since childhood, she knew she was sick too. Did she never ask Soo-won how she was doing? Did he just keep telling her yeah she’s chilling while she was rotting in her grave for yet another year? Kinda creepy then ngl. Or did Yona never even ask?

Exactly, I just feel like the story creates unrealistic gaps, it just wanted Yona to never wonder just so the castle arc reveal hits later. As Su-Won comforted her after her mother's death, I just don't see her never asking about his mother. Especially post Il's death, why wouldn't she wonder? Like "did his mother allow him to commit murder?? where is she??"

I think Su-Won's childhood was incredibly lonely and creepy (also what happened regarding his thoughts on his mother being afraid of him??), and he was putting up a front, but we don't SEE it. Him saying that his father died in an accident, or his mother was being treated. And the fact that we never once saw him grieve either parent is baffling af. Hyu-ri, Kashi, these could be useful characters to explore in regards to what Su-Won did to investigate the bad blood in the family before he read Yon-hi's diary (does he know Hyu-ri killed Kashi?), but ultimately they turned out useless.

Also the way Hak has no reaction when Su-Won tells him his mother had the crimson illness. Like apparently she was alive and getting treatment somewhere, but she's actually dead, and Hak has no reaction to learning this was a lie?? Like... this is Yu-Hon's wife! Hak's lack of actual interest in learning wtf happened to Su-Won's parents and the part that Il had is kinda insane tbh.

Off topic but I hugely mourn we never had a time-skip to Yona as an adult with fully grown hair. I was always convinced that would be her final finale, seeing Yona a beautiful badass queen, an independent inspiring leader, still a warrior with that legendary sword. But we got a worked up little girl that runs around Soo-won for advice all the time. That’s it?

IKR T_T She was supposed to become a badass and beautiful queen omg! I feel like something was planned and scrapped in the early drafts. I also thought the below was the trio in the future:

She too deserved better.

[matcha-chai-latte]

And the switch up and his status is not explained well. At this point the political side of is underdeveloped, so it's whatevs

Yep, can’t know for sure

If he knew, why tf is Yona on good terms with Joon-gi lol?

Because now Joon-gi knows that Yona participated and helped end the Nadai thing in his tribe, and helped his daughter.

It was said that Joon-gi was on Yuhon’s side, so as Soo-won was visiting him I suspect he knew or at least suspected what Soo-won intended to do, Soo-won neede all of the generals to be on his side after all.

But Joon-gi is first of all a super strategic dude, I think he is grateful both to Yona and Soo-won for what they did for the water tribe and Lili, but he doesn’t care for any of them as people lol, he only sees them as walking sacks of benefits. Before despite being grateful to Yona he didn’t care about her as much as for Soo-won, now he gave up on Soo-won completely and pushes Lili to boost her friendship with Yona instead. Nothing personal, pure politics.

Well he's already had solo trips like this, it's not the first time. But yes, it's better for him. Still agreed, dubious with traitors.

Yeah but before he was doing that while she was genuinely in good hands. Now though…lol?😅. Like yeah good for his character individually but not for his relationship with Yona imo.

I think Su-Won's childhood was incredibly lonely and creepy

Bruh I felt bad for Soo-won even before these flashbacks but after? Goddamn to go through so much shit as a 9 year old is heartbreaking, and he had absolutely no one to lean on in this time.

I also thought the below was the trio in the future:

I was certain of it before. After seeing Yona’s “nightmare” on the cliff alone, I thought it’s going to come back in a positive way after the future is changed. Her on that cliff but with Hak and Soo-won next to her like in that panel. Is that war not going to happen, was it all just made up bs? Why did Yona wonder where that place was? Honestly I doubt they won’t have any more wars with Kai, nothing hints at them being friends forever like with Xing. Even Sei can revolt against them again.

We didn’t even see Lili in the final chapter but did see her mother, I’ll forever be salty about it. And Tae-jun appeared once only to drool hopelessly on Yona one final time, how pathetic is that?

Idk really I still can’t believe that this nonsense is the end of the series. Like even if we do get a spinoff or something on the future, ending the main series on this is absurd and so disappointing. I said what I said, an end without an end.

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

She’s left now all alone with all those people that betrayed her and wanted her dead not so long ago. Most of her friends left to be free and happy, Soo-won got rid of the throne’s burden, Hak it seems will be traveling a lot now, she’s still not even engaged to him, will be now working her ass off until the end of her days or until they come up with a new government system.

Kinda dubious but hey it ended😅

[rollzerox]

Let's break down the people Hak left her with:

Zeno: Betrayed them in the end and caused a ton of shit, nearly got them all killed.

Soo-won: Murdered her father

Kye-sook: Has ordered her death twice and Hak's once

Mei-nyan: FRAMED YONA FOR MURDER OF AN INNOCENT MAN SHE POISONED, betrayed the dragons and nearly got Yona executed

Val: The above dumbass's boyfriend

Creepy Soo-won guard (I forgot his name) :THE GUY THAT MURDERED HER MOTHER

Joo-doh: One of the people in on the coop and chose to be in on Il's death and ousting her from the castle

REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THIS IS A GOOD THING???

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

I don't even remember Hyu-ri (creepy Su-Won guard) making an appearance this chapter. He literally existed to end Kashi and dip.

And yeah, like, at least leave Lili with her?? If Lili's willing to stay around Su-Won for some weird reason and nothing romantic came out of that, she can stay with Yona.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I don’t think Lili is willing in any way to stay around Soo-won, she called him her friend and vanished into thin air for months, leaving him waiting for her lol.

[merrilyshadowymentor]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

This might just be the worst ending on a personal level. For me, not because she's "abandoned among traitors," but because she achieves exactly what the story portrays as her glorious destiny, only to discover that this prize is a permanent burden.

The irony is quite effective: everyone else achieves some kind of liberation, while Yona remains trapped in the role that supposedly fulfilled her. The queen Kouka needed, yes. And for that very reason, probably the least free person of all.

Yona wins the throne and loses almost everything else.

That's an undeniable truth. And far more tragic than the usual triumphalist interpretation, though perhaps the manga itself doesn't quite realize it.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Exactly. But I don’t think the throne was ever portrayed a prize to win in this story, so whoever got it wouldn’t be too happy because of it. Il suffered because of it, Soo-won suffered because of it, now it’s Yona. She completely lost her earlier freedom and lost her friends who became the most important people in her life. Of course they may visit her someday but it won’t ever be the same again, she can barely leave the castle and will work the hardest from now on while everyone else got, like you said, liberation. Sad.

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

She’s left now all alone with all those people that betrayed her and wanted her dead not so long ago. Most of her friends left to be free and happy, Soo-won got rid of the throne’s burden, Hak it seems will be traveling a lot now, she’s still not even engaged to him, will be now working her ass off until the end of her days or until they come up with a new government system.

Kinda dubious but hey it ended😅

[rollzerox]

Let's break down the people Hak left her with:

Zeno: Betrayed them in the end and caused a ton of shit, nearly got them all killed.

Soo-won: Murdered her father

Kye-sook: Has ordered her death twice and Hak's once

Mei-nyan: FRAMED YONA FOR MURDER OF AN INNOCENT MAN SHE POISONED, betrayed the dragons and nearly got Yona executed

Val: The above dumbass's boyfriend

Creepy Soo-won guard (I forgot his name) :THE GUY THAT MURDERED HER MOTHER

Joo-doh: One of the people in on the coop and chose to be in on Il's death and ousting her from the castle

REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THIS IS A GOOD THING???

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

I don't even remember Hyu-ri (creepy Su-Won guard) making an appearance this chapter. He literally existed to end Kashi and dip.

And yeah, like, at least leave Lili with her?? If Lili's willing to stay around Su-Won for some weird reason and nothing romantic came out of that, she can stay with Yona.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I don’t think Lili is willing in any way to stay around Soo-won, she called him her friend and vanished into thin air for months, leaving him waiting for her lol.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, apparently she has no interest in being around Su-Won. So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? (Which she never does BTW LMAO)

Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him?

Why did it show her noticing when someone was emotionally off with him?

Why did it have her questioning him?

Why did she want him to talk to her?

Why is there ZERO followup to any of this? It's baffling that she still doesn't know he was seriously ill and almost died by the end of the series.

And yeah, I guess Su-Won really is gonna stay asexual and never tell her anything lol. I guess she will never know of his circumstances, even though she said she wanted to.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Amazing. Great build up, ZERO payoff. AOT's ending is better than Yona's. At least we got some actual resolutions. This feels like a story cut in half.

[matcha-chai-latte]

So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him? Why did it have her questioning him?

Big question mark.

For what Lili had to stay in the capital after Sei arc I can’t even imagine. Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that. She stayed around Soo-won for that to never lead to even good friendship or conversations, why was she curious about his bodyguards, about Ogi? Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Yep. I don’t know if Lili visiting him in gaiden 1 was even necessary. She called him a friend but what for, to never become his friend in fact? All we saw is that she called him that, then disappeared and never came back to visit, leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too). I don’t know what to think.

And yeah the hairpin she took vanished, all her wants to learn about Soo-won were for nothing as she learnt nothing really, and what she was wanting that for I dunno either. Lili herself is a very wasted character unfortunately

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ngl, if Su-Won is going to stay an asexual character working himself to death, then... why not have him just stay king? I don't say this in a biased way either, I truly don't mind Yona being the queen, it just had to be built in a way that makes it clear the throne is what she aims for herself, which we lacked. Su-Won had the alliances, kingdom reformation, etc. he was building up, all for it become irrelevant in less than a year.

I also don't really buy that the timeskip scene was planned the way it ended up... in the scene, Yona was being called "Princess"... but 200 chapters later, the same vision she gets, that same line is corrected to "Queen". It just screams CHANGE to me, not some clever foreshadowing.

Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that

I remember when I was waiting for Su-Won (or even Yona!) to acknowledge everything she had done. A thank you, some public recognition in front of the citizens or generals.

She became so irrelevant once the castle arc started (chapter 183ish) I think she should have marched straight into Hiryuu Castle to speak to Su-Won after the tournament set up the chairs that way at Yona's expense. Lili would have called him out on it (she would be the only one with the nerve and standing), and that would have been a perfect reentrance into the story. Not to mention, Kye-sook had already shown some signs of being unnerved by Lili, so what was the point in not utilizing that?

More Lili vs Kye-sook tension would have been interesting.

I really wish Yona and Lili had teamed up, like they had during the Xing arc against Su-Won's army and all those generals, that was the potential of two women going against a male-dominated society right there. We needed more!

Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

Honestly idek if that scene with Ogi calling him that implied that he learned it from Lili. Maybe, maybe not, maybe both of them saw him that way. He just calls him "you nonchalant tofu bastard".

In any case, maybe it was chosen to not be addressed for the sake of ambiguity (or not), but I think this whole lack of closure wasn't it. It undermines payoff, rather than leave things open-ended in an actually intriguing way.

If you say a woman wants to learn about Su-Won's circumstances, show her learning them! Like goddamn, what did she even learn? That he's a good king? Everyone knew that! The most she was about to learn was when he thought about the hairpin right before shutting her down, like yes! That's what we fucking wanted to see! Not a sidenote in a fanbook!

leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too)

At this point I'm taking the guy at face value. He says he wasn't waiting for her, so... okay. That's the answer. And who knows, he might be gay too lmao 💀, what am I supposed to conclude from those cryptic-ass words to Hak? At this point I'm just gonna assume he told Hak he was in love with him and the manga couldn't print it because of the time period (Kidding... mostly)

I genuinely don't care anymore because this ending is so absurd. This man bluntly rejects Lili, doesn't give a single personal detail about himself, yet has a hush hush moment with Hak alone that might have been the most repressed confession ever.

The ethereal lighting, the hollowed look, the "privacy"... Seriously, what the fuck did he say to Hak privately, for Hak to go O.O like that??

"DUDE YOU'RE GAY???" Forever one of this manga's greatest mysteries.

And besides, that new Earth Tribe general (younger Geun-tae 2.0) appeared and was getting well along with her, so who knows, Lili could end up with Geun-tae 2.0 too.

At this point, my only hope is an anime-only ending.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging and then Lili wondering where Yona is as usual in the final arc.

Saving their whole capital from burning and from being completely destroyed by Chagol with his dromos

Yeah, saving a capital from burning to ash deserves a whole award! Lili deserved better.

I think it came from her honestly, comparing Soo-won’s face to tofu is too specific for both Ogi and Lili to have formed this comparison separately I think. Lili has been hanging out with Ogi all the time, surely talked about Soo-won a lot.

Well, it's possible. It's also possible that she could have bought the pin too after making sure Su-Won was okay and reporting to Ogi... we don't see a thing! This cutoff.... was it intentional for the sake of ambiguity?

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Fine, but at least answer the questions about the pin?? Lili can at least learn about Su-Won too, like she was being set up to?? Concrete answers can still be given even if they don't end up!

Omg I liked the Keishuk - Lili confrontations too, Keishuk hated Lili so much he didn’t even want Soo-won to marry her in the end He looked pissed at the idea here. He even wanted to get rid of her at all as she created disturbances.

Yes! I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back. In canon Yona called out but Lili could have too. It also genuinely felt like it was being set up for Lili to learn more about the coup, how it was planned, how Yona was tracked down, hunted and ordered by Kye-Sook to be killed.

What's the point of Lili wanting to know more about the assassination details if she never learns them??

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

Another thing we never learned, how the coup was carried out! The mechanics of it, who Su-Won approached first, how he got the guards to stand down, what he offered. His mother didn't know shit about it. Plus the aftermath, the guilt Su-Won faced for letting Yona see the crime, we should have gotten that from Su-Won's own mouth!

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV of his own past, how did he grieve his father's death, his mother's death, what that looked like for him day to day. We don't even know why he's so invested in democracy now, what's shifted, etc. etc.

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

I genuinely don't think we understood who Su-Won is as a person by the end of this. Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss! (Although who knows, he might just deflect and keep certain things from Ogi too, wouldn't be surprised, he never told Lili about his illness). Ogi said Su-Won never talked about himself. Will that ever change? Guess we'll never know.

I think it was Soo-won’s final farewell to Hak, a certainty from him they won’t see each other again. Soo-won said “I even said my goodbyes to Hak”

The thing is though, if it was just "goodbye", why was it so important to hash out the text?? Like that would have gotten the message across, and would have hit harder if he contradicted himself later and lived. It's just weird. Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"? Considering Su-Won is a private person whatever he told Hak could have hit really hard or been unusual.

But who knows. This chapter we saw Soo-won running like crazy after Gulfan to see if Hak returned, in any case it shows he cares about Hak more than about anyone else (not the Griffith/Guts parallels). So idk and idc really anymore either

Yeah, although probably not as much as his father (who he was implied to love very unhealthily). That relationship shaped everything about him, for better or worse.

But honestly, at this point, if not asexual, he's probably more in love with Hak than any woman. He flat out said he wasn't waiting for Lili, yet will run across a city for Hak in canon. This is Griffith -> Guts behavior. And yet somehow, THAT relationship, the one that matters most to Su-Won, gets less closure than the other relationships in the story? Hilarious really.

Not to mention, we never even saw Su-Won's reaction to Hak and Yona being romantically involved, that too was just offhandedly in a fanbook footnote instead of an actual moment in the story. The same goes for whether he viewed Yona like a younger sister or woman. His sexuality was never explored in any depth from start to end.

Yeah, I mean she argues with literally everyone so idk what’s their vibe yet (and won’t know it seems). I’m still mad Lili is left all alone, even Meinyan’s got a bf bruh

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

[matcha-chai-latte]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging

Ah then my memory’s failing me. Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn. Why couldn’t we get more romance in a romantic manga tho. It’s like that thing with Soo-won admitting his mistakes I guess, last minute change. Maybe the author wanted for them to get together but then made up her mind idk.

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back.

Lili is better at it than even Yona as Lili is very direct and “straight to the point”. She would for sure ask Soo-won and fight Keishuk somehow. Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much.

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her, it could mean exactly that too coming from Keishuk. In any case that’s exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV

Yep, that I regret not seeing too

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment.

No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss!

Yeees I would’ve loved to see that.

Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"?

The guard was talking about the whole Yona the successor thing there, I mean Hak and Soo-won were completely alone hiding from guards so technically correct. Plus I remember how Hak remembered Soo-won and the blurred message when someone mentioned “returning”. So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. If the author was super burnt out I don’t think she’d add new characters at all. I’d bet she’s exhausted though so idk. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

...Yeah. Lili was hyped up for so much more than this.

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn

It was regarding a question about whether Lili's husband would be the Water Tribe general or if she would be the general, and how generals are picked. The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her. Now if she learned he was sick, then yeah. But no.

Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much

Exactly, Lili would be better than Yona at it. I needed more tension where Kye-sook may even consider killing her and Lili has to pick up on the signs, that would be so peak.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her,

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

But of course, if she got too involved with Yona once she returned to the palace and started actively threatening the crown... then Kye-sook may act, yeah.

exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament, and then... the castle arc just never shows the outside world for a while, because Yona is too busy reading Yon-hi's diary. We only see Lili again later on just before Chagol sets the castle on fire and people are out for war, when she meets Mei-nyan.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment. No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Yep. Hak wondered why, thinks he felt nothing, yet a ch later, Su-Won's mind went straight to her smiling face and pin. That pin 100% had relevance in Su-Won's arc, yet it's been abandoned (unless the author plans to make a sequel, idk).

So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

Maybe... I just wish we'd actually found out or Hak had addressed it with him.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

Yep, my stance as well. If Su is really ace, I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

[matcha-chai-latte]

The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

Yeah though I’d say killing a person that agitates troops by loud speeches would’ve been a more effective solution from a person like Keishuk, sending her away was even more dangerous than having her right there imo. Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament,

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc, then right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. I remember how Soo-won didn’t allow Lili to go to Ogi’s place so that she doesn’t get in trouble/arguments there, then she created huge commotion because of Yona. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted.

I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yep. At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her? Is her legacy just going to be, 'the previous general's daughter' and nothing more? What does she have in her own right?

Not to mention, Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively? For a character with such leadership and vitality, Lili deserved more prominence! She's sharp, proactive, presence... and her efforts literally saved the Sky capital! She should be super popular with them. What's her arc building her towards?

But I guess the story would rather focus on an exposition device like Mei-nyan...... sad really. In another world, Mei-nyan could have been a great female anti-hero/antagonist.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I wonder why. The author has tended to abandon confrontations between the trio almost intentionally (she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father (also the man her friend used to love) off limits. By making sure Lili never gets too close to Su-Won, the whole issue of confronting that controversy gets buried. So Kusanagi may basically be hedging, she can't (or won't) commit to writing the necessary confrontations/revelations. So, the story feels anticlimactic.

Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Su-Won was dying, and Hak was an active threat to his life. Lili? Well, she's a friend of Yona, but Su-Won and Judo also knew she was alive.

I agree sending her away was more dangerous technically, but Lili also made it clear to Su-Won in front of Kye-sook that she did not want to threaten his reign, since Su-Won was her savior as well.

But yeah. Really, what was with Kye-Sook's reaction when Geun-tae suggested he was going to marry Lili lmao? Seems like another wasted opportunity for tension.

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc

Yeah. What was the actual point of that in hindsight lmao?

right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there (probably checked out by Su-Won, yes... I wish they'd actually shown us that, as well as both of their reactions). It's pretty annoying how Su-Won was constantly confining Lili ngl...

One thing I never liked about the castle arc was that it never showed Lili actually trying to get into the castle to see Yona and Su-Won after the tournament, especially considering Yona was quarantined and everything.

so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted

Thing is, she never went back to the Water Tribe capital like Kye-Sook wanted. She stayed in Kuuto.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

For some weird reason, Mei-nyan was given more screentime than Lili in these arcs. Lili seriously was robbed! Justice for Lili!

[matcha-chai-latte]

At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her?

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively?

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on, and I’m pretty sure Kusanagi didn’t intend him to stay king from start. So Lili never would’ve joined the royal family really.

But as the story ended Lili is not getting together with anyone, and even if I imagine she did, I’m not sure where would it take her. Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one, maybe they could’ve united them or smth to rule them. Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Like literally her future is so undetermined at the moment, I have no idea where would anything lead her. I don’t see Lili being a lonely woman her whole life as she’s quite romantic the story showed.

she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute. Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Well like I’ve been saying their friendship was never that deep to begin with, they only were friends through “actions” ever since they were children, cared for each other throughout “actions” after the betrayal and now coexist through “actions” and common work. No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father

That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately. By being Yona’s friend, accepting Soo-won’s reign and seeing him as a friend should’ve already been a taboo for Lili too but wasn’t, she was kinda on both sides from start and didn’t want anything bad happen to either of them.

So with that position of Lili already there while Soo-won was Yona’s enemy, the romance could’ve been a challenge before Yona forgave Soo-won, now tho they’re on good terms again so I see no issue other than Soo-won being ace lmao. Another problem is that indeed such a romance is complicated and would need a longer story to develop it well, there would be lots of nuance for it too (like Yona learning and being wary of the idea for Lili’s sake).

But yeah, what pains me is that we didn’t see even this “friendship” of their in action either unfortunately, I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends.

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too. And when Yona appeared it seems her access there was denied (like Hak’s at the beginning) because I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status. Like, she doesn't just exist to be Su-Won's wife, or Joon-gi's daughter. Or Kurif's wife. Or Yona's friend. It'd be cool if she got with someone, but Lili shouldn't elevate her position only in relation to others.

Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Well, Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals... but it would have been interesting if Su-Won ever left his position and started living in the Water Tribe... although, rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute.

Yep, this is so ironic, with all the focus on SuHak we got.

Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Yeah, she didn't. The story builds up a lot of internal rage/grief from her, even with her political growth. But there's a fundamental lack of true payoff where she made Su-Won truly face the consequences of his actions.

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate"

"yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now"

"yessir"

what's this customer service to govt group project pipeline?? 😭

No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su! I still feel like this dynamic deserved better, especially considering Hak is implied to be the most important person to Su-Won rn...

I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends. That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately

Yep, it could have really developed Lili's character. Yona never learned that Lili was hanging out at the castle either.

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too.

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair. I would have liked to see her pass through Yona's room, or wonder where ll was assasinated, where she was staying, etc.

I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder

I'd have liked to see that tbh. Both right before the castle arc, if we saw Kye-sook check her out, or during the castle arc, if she tried to get into the castle to question Su-Won and Yona and was prevented. She needed more involvement.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me. Joon-gi didn’t show himself as a good tribe leader even, he resembled Il in his passivity and pacifism. Honestly it’s a surprise he supported Yuhon and Soo-won with that approach.

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc, the rest I’m not sure why we kept seeing her for as it never paid off. But Tae-jun like I once said had good closure, he stayed in his tribe, became a good leader and activist, is doing stuff there. Lili though? What was she doing in the capital when she should’ve been working in the water tribe I’m not quite sure. Now she’s kind of in the middle of nowhere, not important to the castle, not visibly leading anything in the water tribe. I don’t understand her character’s purpose then🤷‍♀️

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore. So to me it’s seems that the only “royalty” aka royal family will from now on be Yona and her future husband/children (bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then). So to me Soo-won is no more than related to the royal family but not part of it. But idk that’s for the author to specify.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status

Another thing is I’m not sure it would even in any way elevate her status. Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe at the moment but not like we saw her working there like Yona is in the capital

Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals

Geez but if not the water tribe’s next general, then who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

Yep for now he for sure is staying the counselor, I wish we at least saw him be one, not being a spider locked up in his room

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate / "yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now" /"yessir"

Lmao accurate

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su!

I meant more their trio friendship not Hak/Soo-won specifically. But if we compare then of course in comparison to the shallow Soo-won/Yona friendship, Soo-won and Hak’s was always way deeper, they understand each other’s behavior and way of thinking very well. But by deep talks I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect, Yona never did about either of them (before betrayal).

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair

Yeah I know but from Soo-won’s words remarks I understood that she was.

She had a room of her own there. I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright? Urgh so many weird unanswered things

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc

Yep this sucks 😭 Tae-jun was harassing Yona for years, Lili was her first and best female friend, why do they get the same treatment?? Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me.

Yes, though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious. Lili was impulsive and willing to act, so she took more initiative. But again, she had the hallmarks of a leader.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore.

In Japanese, "lord" is simply the English substitute for the "-sama" honorific suffix, so it's not very informative. Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

(bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then).

....Gosh I don't want to know, that'll be a bigger asspull than Yona being queen. Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

Yep, she's likely staying in the Water Tribe. I don't know what she'll be doing there though if not general either 🫠

not being a spider locked up in his room

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last 🤣

I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect

Yep, Hak reflected on Su-Won and so the fallout of their relationship in particular should be discussed. All they talked about is the country or betrayal. But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

I "think" the ribbon he wears in his ponytail is a keepsake of hers, worn in honor. Like that's speculation because we don't know shit.

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe. Who, what relatives?? The crimson illness clan?? Hyu-ri's family lmao?? Apparently he didn't read Yonhi's diary until after he killed Il, and the way he spoke to Mei-nyan in ch 204 implied that he hadn't known he was a Hiryuu descendant until after he read it.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

What's Su-Won's interior life?? Where's his POV?? Again we did not learn enough about this character. Su's POV arc was needed.

She had a room of her own there.

Yes, I agree. I would have liked to see where she stayed, etc.

I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright?

LMAO, would have loved to see that. Doubt she would have if so.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Yes, loved her in Xing too but after that I’m not sure what she stayed for. What were reflections about Soo-won, taking the hairpin and her constant presence with Ogi for I’m not sure. Nothing played out.

though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious

Yeah I don’t think he’s hopeless, he has that inner strength in him but his cautiousness was more passivity, he was for some reason shown waiting for Soo-won to sort things out for him. Though to be fair we weren’t shown if he was doing something independently.

Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

We lack info on it but I think having royal blood doesn’t necessarily equal to being officially part of the royal family. And as Kusanagi mentioned Joon-gi wanting Lili in the royal family, it’s about the benefit it brings. By marrying Soo-won the king, Lili would’ve become royalty herself, as would her children, that’s why Joon-gi wished for it. Now that Soo-won’s not king his royal blood doesn’t really mean anything, we can see it as Joon-gi doesn’t want Lili to marry Soo-won anymore, because even if she does, nothing will change for her status. So it makes me think Soo-won is not considered royalty by anyone, in any case it means nothing.

Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

That’s why I’m curious. They’ll marry someday eventually, it’s inevitable (unless they stay in their long-distance situationship forever lol). Marrying the queen means Hak will be king, whether they want it or not, that’s how it works, no? It wasn’t shown so that Yona gets her showtime as queen, so I’m guessing they’ll get married only years later now, I understand it but what next? Will Hak become king or the royal concubine? Or some new role they make up for him? Can’t help but wonder.

On one hand I like that Hak is finally not glued to Yona, has a “dream” of his own, to travel, to see things, so on. It’s great. But again this point of his life feels intermediary, he won’t be doing it forever, so to end the story on that…idk feels so weird.

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last

Lmao true. But I was also curious to see Soo-won the counselor in action too, his tandem with Yona and Keishuk on meetings, diplomatic missions, etc.

But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Exactly, I feel like it was too important to never discuss but whatever, Hak just waved it off and left into the sunset. Bro tired.

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

Yeah sorry but how can the death of the infamous Lord Yuhon’s wife be kept a secret, why was no one aware. I think Soo-won was stunned and maybe didn’t even want to talk about it but really how come it was not a big news and a fact everyone knew about. It’s kind of a huge thing no, so how?😅

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe.

At this point I think this was a blatant lie and Soo-won was just meeting up with people for the future coup planning. He read the diary only after his coronation so it wasn’t the clan, and he has no other relatives so it’s the only thing that comes to my mind.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

Yeah we only saw them comfort Yona but already months (or even one month) later Yuhon died. I think Soo-won was behaving like he did with Yong-hi, continued smiling and all, so they expressed condolences but it was pretty much it I think, Soo-won wouldn’t open up to them about anything as he hated Il with his whole heart and already wanted him dead (lol).

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

We lack info on it but I think having royal blood doesn’t necessarily equal to being officially part of the royal family. makes me think Soo-won is not considered royalty by anyone

Hen-dae literally says, "Oh, it's Lord Su-Won, Hak is lucky to have friends in the royal family"... they're obviously not talking about Yona. It is true that the story doesn't go into it much. There's also a statement Kusanagi made explaining that Judo is not royalty like Yona or Su-Won.

I think Su-Won IS still considered royalty, but like of a branch family, not the inheriting line.

Joon-gi doesn’t want Lili to marry Soo-won anymore, because even if she does, nothing will change for her status

I think Joon-gi especially wanted Lili to be queen by marrying the main royal line. But he was already asking Su-Won to marry her even when he wasn't the king. But yeah, potential plothole?

Marrying the queen means Hak will be king, whether they want it or not, that’s how it works, no? Will Hak become king or the royal concubine? Or some new role they make up for him? Can’t help but wonder.

Yona is queen regnant, so that means Hak has to be like a king-consort, otherwise it kind of undermines the whole "revolutionary feminist" ending the writer seems to have had in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if the story avoids calling him king and they'll make a new role for him, something different from king at least. Kye-sook's line implied it to me.

I like that Hak is finally not glued to Yona, has a “dream” of his own, to travel, to see things, so on.

I dunno, I see him as still being tied to her, because his dream is to be her eyes and make sure her rule reaches the people, it's not really about himself. Still his solo trips were always nice, yes.

curious to see Soo-won the counselor in action too, his tandem with Yona and Keishuk on meetings, diplomatic missions, etc.

Same, really felt like the start of a new arc cut short.

Hak just waved it off and left into the sunset. Bro tired.

The guy is seriously out of the loop. He didn't know Su-Won killed for revenge until the castle arc, so what, was he thinking Su-Won did it for the love of the game lmao? Even now Hak doesn't know why Il killed Yu-Hon. I really thought we were going to get an arc of Hak realizing the dark sides of Il, especially after the flashback where he recognized Il wasn't a coward, along with Judo telling Hak: "there are many things King Il didn't tell you" and Hak admitting he didn't really know King Il. Felt like an obvious setup to me, never went anywhere.

how can the death of the infamous Lord Yuhon’s wife be kept a secret, why was no one aware

Right?? The citizens revered Yu-Hon crazily, he was the hero of Kouka's military, no way they wouldn't wonder where his wife and child are was. Yona and Hak never even were curious about her existence until the castle arc, which I found VERY unrealistic. I was wondering about her from the very beginning.

Also, the fact that we don't even know where Il's body is insane. That alone is enough to find Yona and Su-Won's "resolution" completely surreal. Like you're telling me she can have calm and casual conversations with Su-Won without EVER demanding to know wtf he did with her dad's body?? How does this not come up?? This is basic closure 101! I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was something unhinged, like he fed Il's body to dogs or some shit lmao.

At this point I think this was a blatant lie and Soo-won was just meeting up with people for the future coup planning

Possible, but it wasn't shown. Needed the pov arc.

I think Soo-won was behaving like he did with Yong-hi, continued smiling and all, so they expressed condolences but it was pretty much it I think, Soo-won wouldn’t open up to them about anything as he hated Il with his whole heart and already wanted him dead (lol).

Yeah, but kind of a wasted goldmine of potential flashbacks imo. We were really robbed of the psychology behind it all.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I think Su-Won IS still considered royalty, but like of a branch family, not the inheriting line.

I think Joon-gi especially wanted Lili to be queen by marrying the main royal line. But he was already asking Su-Won to marry her even when he wasn't the king.

Matter of terminology if Soo-won is real royalty or not. If he is then it’s very strange he has no special title or anything, just lord “-sama” makes him no higher in position than Lili or Hak, if he was royalty than he was supposed to be. He is royalty biologically but status wise it’s no special thing then.

I meant that according to logic if Kusanagi mentioned Joon-gi wanting Lili to join the royal family (which was when Soo-won was king), now as Joon-gi was shown not wanting that anymore, then marrying Soo-won now doesn’t join Lili to royalty. If Soo-won’s current position was still something prestigious, then Joon-gi would’ve continued wanting Lili and Soo-won together.

Honestly it is kinda strange as marrying even a distant family member of a monarch was normally super luxurious and desired amongst nobles, and Soo-won is not even that distant.

And I’m not sure about the translation of that moment, in another version Soo-won tells Lili Joon-gi wanted her as Soo-won’s queen. I kinda suspect Joon-gi was aware of Soo-won’s future coup, so he knew in the future he’d become king and Lili could be then his queen. But idk whatever.

Hak has to be like a king-consort, otherwise it kind of undermines the whole "revolutionary feminist" ending the writer seems to have had in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if the story avoids calling him king and they'll make a new role for him, something different from king at least.

Yeah most likely, whenever they marry as soon as Hak becomes official king, everyone will forget about Yona the queen, so they probably can’t do it. He’ll be the “queen’s heart” then lol

I see him as still being tied to her, because his dream is to be her eyes and make sure her rule reaches the people, it's not really about himself

True but for a person like him it’s already good progress. Earlier he couldn’t imagine not following her around all the time, now he leaves her confidently to go to places far away alone, even if it is partially for her.

Not too bad, except he suddenly leaves her in a place full of traitors who are not too trustworthy but ok. He left Il and Yona once with them and look what happened, what made him think they changed completely and forever I dunno. They’ll never be their friends like the dragons, like I said if Yona stops being useful, they’ll betray her again and won’t even blink. That’s what dubious, especially with a person who had trust issues as deep as Hak. I’d understand if Yona was surrounded by loyal friends there but not really, is she.

He didn't know Su-Won killed for revenge until the castle arc, so what, was he thinking Su-Won did it for the love of the game lmao? Even now Hak doesn't know why Il killed Yu-Hon.

Yep I hate that Hak doesn’t know anything still as he was shown wondering about “why” all the time. It’s very unfair to him.

Yona and Hak never even were curious about her existence until the castle arc, which I found VERY unrealistic

Lol yes. Especially Yona, she has seen Yong-hi since childhood, she knew she was sick too. Did she never ask Soo-won how she was doing? Did he just keep telling her yeah she’s chilling while she was rotting in her grave for yet another year? Kinda creepy then ngl. Or did Yona never even ask?

I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was something unhinged, like he fed Il's body to dogs or some shit lmao.

Lmao that’s actually exactly my bet, he hated Il so much after all and was anti-religious so why wouldn’t he. But yeah if I were Yona I’d also be curious🤷‍♀️

Off topic but I hugely mourn we never had a time-skip to Yona as an adult with fully grown hair. I was always convinced that would be her final finale, seeing Yona a beautiful badass queen, an independent inspiring leader, still a warrior with that legendary sword. But we got a worked up little girl that runs around Soo-won for advice all the time. That’s it?

Such a plain pathetic end for her character we got really.

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

She’s left now all alone with all those people that betrayed her and wanted her dead not so long ago. Most of her friends left to be free and happy, Soo-won got rid of the throne’s burden, Hak it seems will be traveling a lot now, she’s still not even engaged to him, will be now working her ass off until the end of her days or until they come up with a new government system.

Kinda dubious but hey it ended😅

[rollzerox]

Let's break down the people Hak left her with:

Zeno: Betrayed them in the end and caused a ton of shit, nearly got them all killed.

Soo-won: Murdered her father

Kye-sook: Has ordered her death twice and Hak's once

Mei-nyan: FRAMED YONA FOR MURDER OF AN INNOCENT MAN SHE POISONED, betrayed the dragons and nearly got Yona executed

Val: The above dumbass's boyfriend

Creepy Soo-won guard (I forgot his name) :THE GUY THAT MURDERED HER MOTHER

Joo-doh: One of the people in on the coop and chose to be in on Il's death and ousting her from the castle

REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THIS IS A GOOD THING???

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

I don't even remember Hyu-ri (creepy Su-Won guard) making an appearance this chapter. He literally existed to end Kashi and dip.

And yeah, like, at least leave Lili with her?? If Lili's willing to stay around Su-Won for some weird reason and nothing romantic came out of that, she can stay with Yona.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I don’t think Lili is willing in any way to stay around Soo-won, she called him her friend and vanished into thin air for months, leaving him waiting for her lol.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, apparently she has no interest in being around Su-Won. So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? (Which she never does BTW LMAO)

Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him?

Why did it show her noticing when someone was emotionally off with him?

Why did it have her questioning him?

Why did she want him to talk to her?

Why is there ZERO followup to any of this? It's baffling that she still doesn't know he was seriously ill and almost died by the end of the series.

And yeah, I guess Su-Won really is gonna stay asexual and never tell her anything lol. I guess she will never know of his circumstances, even though she said she wanted to.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Amazing. Great build up, ZERO payoff. AOT's ending is better than Yona's. At least we got some actual resolutions. This feels like a story cut in half.

[matcha-chai-latte]

So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him? Why did it have her questioning him?

Big question mark.

For what Lili had to stay in the capital after Sei arc I can’t even imagine. Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that. She stayed around Soo-won for that to never lead to even good friendship or conversations, why was she curious about his bodyguards, about Ogi? Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Yep. I don’t know if Lili visiting him in gaiden 1 was even necessary. She called him a friend but what for, to never become his friend in fact? All we saw is that she called him that, then disappeared and never came back to visit, leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too). I don’t know what to think.

And yeah the hairpin she took vanished, all her wants to learn about Soo-won were for nothing as she learnt nothing really, and what she was wanting that for I dunno either. Lili herself is a very wasted character unfortunately

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ngl, if Su-Won is going to stay an asexual character working himself to death, then... why not have him just stay king? I don't say this in a biased way either, I truly don't mind Yona being the queen, it just had to be built in a way that makes it clear the throne is what she aims for herself, which we lacked. Su-Won had the alliances, kingdom reformation, etc. he was building up, all for it become irrelevant in less than a year.

I also don't really buy that the timeskip scene was planned the way it ended up... in the scene, Yona was being called "Princess"... but 200 chapters later, the same vision she gets, that same line is corrected to "Queen". It just screams CHANGE to me, not some clever foreshadowing.

Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that

I remember when I was waiting for Su-Won (or even Yona!) to acknowledge everything she had done. A thank you, some public recognition in front of the citizens or generals.

She became so irrelevant once the castle arc started (chapter 183ish) I think she should have marched straight into Hiryuu Castle to speak to Su-Won after the tournament set up the chairs that way at Yona's expense. Lili would have called him out on it (she would be the only one with the nerve and standing), and that would have been a perfect reentrance into the story. Not to mention, Kye-sook had already shown some signs of being unnerved by Lili, so what was the point in not utilizing that?

More Lili vs Kye-sook tension would have been interesting.

I really wish Yona and Lili had teamed up, like they had during the Xing arc against Su-Won's army and all those generals, that was the potential of two women going against a male-dominated society right there. We needed more!

Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

Honestly idek if that scene with Ogi calling him that implied that he learned it from Lili. Maybe, maybe not, maybe both of them saw him that way. He just calls him "you nonchalant tofu bastard".

In any case, maybe it was chosen to not be addressed for the sake of ambiguity (or not), but I think this whole lack of closure wasn't it. It undermines payoff, rather than leave things open-ended in an actually intriguing way.

If you say a woman wants to learn about Su-Won's circumstances, show her learning them! Like goddamn, what did she even learn? That he's a good king? Everyone knew that! The most she was about to learn was when he thought about the hairpin right before shutting her down, like yes! That's what we fucking wanted to see! Not a sidenote in a fanbook!

leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too)

At this point I'm taking the guy at face value. He says he wasn't waiting for her, so... okay. That's the answer. And who knows, he might be gay too lmao 💀, what am I supposed to conclude from those cryptic-ass words to Hak? At this point I'm just gonna assume he told Hak he was in love with him and the manga couldn't print it because of the time period (Kidding... mostly)

I genuinely don't care anymore because this ending is so absurd. This man bluntly rejects Lili, doesn't give a single personal detail about himself, yet has a hush hush moment with Hak alone that might have been the most repressed confession ever.

The ethereal lighting, the hollowed look, the "privacy"... Seriously, what the fuck did he say to Hak privately, for Hak to go O.O like that??

"DUDE YOU'RE GAY???" Forever one of this manga's greatest mysteries.

And besides, that new Earth Tribe general (younger Geun-tae 2.0) appeared and was getting well along with her, so who knows, Lili could end up with Geun-tae 2.0 too.

At this point, my only hope is an anime-only ending.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging and then Lili wondering where Yona is as usual in the final arc.

Saving their whole capital from burning and from being completely destroyed by Chagol with his dromos

Yeah, saving a capital from burning to ash deserves a whole award! Lili deserved better.

I think it came from her honestly, comparing Soo-won’s face to tofu is too specific for both Ogi and Lili to have formed this comparison separately I think. Lili has been hanging out with Ogi all the time, surely talked about Soo-won a lot.

Well, it's possible. It's also possible that she could have bought the pin too after making sure Su-Won was okay and reporting to Ogi... we don't see a thing! This cutoff.... was it intentional for the sake of ambiguity?

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Fine, but at least answer the questions about the pin?? Lili can at least learn about Su-Won too, like she was being set up to?? Concrete answers can still be given even if they don't end up!

Omg I liked the Keishuk - Lili confrontations too, Keishuk hated Lili so much he didn’t even want Soo-won to marry her in the end He looked pissed at the idea here. He even wanted to get rid of her at all as she created disturbances.

Yes! I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back. In canon Yona called out but Lili could have too. It also genuinely felt like it was being set up for Lili to learn more about the coup, how it was planned, how Yona was tracked down, hunted and ordered by Kye-Sook to be killed.

What's the point of Lili wanting to know more about the assassination details if she never learns them??

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

Another thing we never learned, how the coup was carried out! The mechanics of it, who Su-Won approached first, how he got the guards to stand down, what he offered. His mother didn't know shit about it. Plus the aftermath, the guilt Su-Won faced for letting Yona see the crime, we should have gotten that from Su-Won's own mouth!

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV of his own past, how did he grieve his father's death, his mother's death, what that looked like for him day to day. We don't even know why he's so invested in democracy now, what's shifted, etc. etc.

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

I genuinely don't think we understood who Su-Won is as a person by the end of this. Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss! (Although who knows, he might just deflect and keep certain things from Ogi too, wouldn't be surprised, he never told Lili about his illness). Ogi said Su-Won never talked about himself. Will that ever change? Guess we'll never know.

I think it was Soo-won’s final farewell to Hak, a certainty from him they won’t see each other again. Soo-won said “I even said my goodbyes to Hak”

The thing is though, if it was just "goodbye", why was it so important to hash out the text?? Like that would have gotten the message across, and would have hit harder if he contradicted himself later and lived. It's just weird. Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"? Considering Su-Won is a private person whatever he told Hak could have hit really hard or been unusual.

But who knows. This chapter we saw Soo-won running like crazy after Gulfan to see if Hak returned, in any case it shows he cares about Hak more than about anyone else (not the Griffith/Guts parallels). So idk and idc really anymore either

Yeah, although probably not as much as his father (who he was implied to love very unhealthily). That relationship shaped everything about him, for better or worse.

But honestly, at this point, if not asexual, he's probably more in love with Hak than any woman. He flat out said he wasn't waiting for Lili, yet will run across a city for Hak in canon. This is Griffith -> Guts behavior. And yet somehow, THAT relationship, the one that matters most to Su-Won, gets less closure than the other relationships in the story? Hilarious really.

Not to mention, we never even saw Su-Won's reaction to Hak and Yona being romantically involved, that too was just offhandedly in a fanbook footnote instead of an actual moment in the story. The same goes for whether he viewed Yona like a younger sister or woman. His sexuality was never explored in any depth from start to end.

Yeah, I mean she argues with literally everyone so idk what’s their vibe yet (and won’t know it seems). I’m still mad Lili is left all alone, even Meinyan’s got a bf bruh

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

[matcha-chai-latte]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging

Ah then my memory’s failing me. Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn. Why couldn’t we get more romance in a romantic manga tho. It’s like that thing with Soo-won admitting his mistakes I guess, last minute change. Maybe the author wanted for them to get together but then made up her mind idk.

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back.

Lili is better at it than even Yona as Lili is very direct and “straight to the point”. She would for sure ask Soo-won and fight Keishuk somehow. Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much.

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her, it could mean exactly that too coming from Keishuk. In any case that’s exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV

Yep, that I regret not seeing too

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment.

No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss!

Yeees I would’ve loved to see that.

Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"?

The guard was talking about the whole Yona the successor thing there, I mean Hak and Soo-won were completely alone hiding from guards so technically correct. Plus I remember how Hak remembered Soo-won and the blurred message when someone mentioned “returning”. So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. If the author was super burnt out I don’t think she’d add new characters at all. I’d bet she’s exhausted though so idk. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

...Yeah. Lili was hyped up for so much more than this.

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn

It was regarding a question about whether Lili's husband would be the Water Tribe general or if she would be the general, and how generals are picked. The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her. Now if she learned he was sick, then yeah. But no.

Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much

Exactly, Lili would be better than Yona at it. I needed more tension where Kye-sook may even consider killing her and Lili has to pick up on the signs, that would be so peak.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her,

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

But of course, if she got too involved with Yona once she returned to the palace and started actively threatening the crown... then Kye-sook may act, yeah.

exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament, and then... the castle arc just never shows the outside world for a while, because Yona is too busy reading Yon-hi's diary. We only see Lili again later on just before Chagol sets the castle on fire and people are out for war, when she meets Mei-nyan.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment. No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Yep. Hak wondered why, thinks he felt nothing, yet a ch later, Su-Won's mind went straight to her smiling face and pin. That pin 100% had relevance in Su-Won's arc, yet it's been abandoned (unless the author plans to make a sequel, idk).

So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

Maybe... I just wish we'd actually found out or Hak had addressed it with him.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

Yep, my stance as well. If Su is really ace, I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

[matcha-chai-latte]

The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

Yeah though I’d say killing a person that agitates troops by loud speeches would’ve been a more effective solution from a person like Keishuk, sending her away was even more dangerous than having her right there imo. Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament,

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc, then right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. I remember how Soo-won didn’t allow Lili to go to Ogi’s place so that she doesn’t get in trouble/arguments there, then she created huge commotion because of Yona. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted.

I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yep. At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her? Is her legacy just going to be, 'the previous general's daughter' and nothing more? What does she have in her own right?

Not to mention, Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively? For a character with such leadership and vitality, Lili deserved more prominence! She's sharp, proactive, presence... and her efforts literally saved the Sky capital! She should be super popular with them. What's her arc building her towards?

But I guess the story would rather focus on an exposition device like Mei-nyan...... sad really. In another world, Mei-nyan could have been a great female anti-hero/antagonist.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I wonder why. The author has tended to abandon confrontations between the trio almost intentionally (she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father (also the man her friend used to love) off limits. By making sure Lili never gets too close to Su-Won, the whole issue of confronting that controversy gets buried. So Kusanagi may basically be hedging, she can't (or won't) commit to writing the necessary confrontations/revelations. So, the story feels anticlimactic.

Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Su-Won was dying, and Hak was an active threat to his life. Lili? Well, she's a friend of Yona, but Su-Won and Judo also knew she was alive.

I agree sending her away was more dangerous technically, but Lili also made it clear to Su-Won in front of Kye-sook that she did not want to threaten his reign, since Su-Won was her savior as well.

But yeah. Really, what was with Kye-Sook's reaction when Geun-tae suggested he was going to marry Lili lmao? Seems like another wasted opportunity for tension.

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc

Yeah. What was the actual point of that in hindsight lmao?

right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there (probably checked out by Su-Won, yes... I wish they'd actually shown us that, as well as both of their reactions). It's pretty annoying how Su-Won was constantly confining Lili ngl...

One thing I never liked about the castle arc was that it never showed Lili actually trying to get into the castle to see Yona and Su-Won after the tournament, especially considering Yona was quarantined and everything.

so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted

Thing is, she never went back to the Water Tribe capital like Kye-Sook wanted. She stayed in Kuuto.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

For some weird reason, Mei-nyan was given more screentime than Lili in these arcs. Lili seriously was robbed! Justice for Lili!

[matcha-chai-latte]

At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her?

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively?

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on, and I’m pretty sure Kusanagi didn’t intend him to stay king from start. So Lili never would’ve joined the royal family really.

But as the story ended Lili is not getting together with anyone, and even if I imagine she did, I’m not sure where would it take her. Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one, maybe they could’ve united them or smth to rule them. Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Like literally her future is so undetermined at the moment, I have no idea where would anything lead her. I don’t see Lili being a lonely woman her whole life as she’s quite romantic the story showed.

she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute. Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Well like I’ve been saying their friendship was never that deep to begin with, they only were friends through “actions” ever since they were children, cared for each other throughout “actions” after the betrayal and now coexist through “actions” and common work. No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father

That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately. By being Yona’s friend, accepting Soo-won’s reign and seeing him as a friend should’ve already been a taboo for Lili too but wasn’t, she was kinda on both sides from start and didn’t want anything bad happen to either of them.

So with that position of Lili already there while Soo-won was Yona’s enemy, the romance could’ve been a challenge before Yona forgave Soo-won, now tho they’re on good terms again so I see no issue other than Soo-won being ace lmao. Another problem is that indeed such a romance is complicated and would need a longer story to develop it well, there would be lots of nuance for it too (like Yona learning and being wary of the idea for Lili’s sake).

But yeah, what pains me is that we didn’t see even this “friendship” of their in action either unfortunately, I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends.

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too. And when Yona appeared it seems her access there was denied (like Hak’s at the beginning) because I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status. Like, she doesn't just exist to be Su-Won's wife, or Joon-gi's daughter. Or Kurif's wife. Or Yona's friend. It'd be cool if she got with someone, but Lili shouldn't elevate her position only in relation to others.

Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Well, Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals... but it would have been interesting if Su-Won ever left his position and started living in the Water Tribe... although, rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute.

Yep, this is so ironic, with all the focus on SuHak we got.

Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Yeah, she didn't. The story builds up a lot of internal rage/grief from her, even with her political growth. But there's a fundamental lack of true payoff where she made Su-Won truly face the consequences of his actions.

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate"

"yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now"

"yessir"

what's this customer service to govt group project pipeline?? 😭

No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su! I still feel like this dynamic deserved better, especially considering Hak is implied to be the most important person to Su-Won rn...

I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends. That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately

Yep, it could have really developed Lili's character. Yona never learned that Lili was hanging out at the castle either.

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too.

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair. I would have liked to see her pass through Yona's room, or wonder where ll was assasinated, where she was staying, etc.

I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder

I'd have liked to see that tbh. Both right before the castle arc, if we saw Kye-sook check her out, or during the castle arc, if she tried to get into the castle to question Su-Won and Yona and was prevented. She needed more involvement.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me. Joon-gi didn’t show himself as a good tribe leader even, he resembled Il in his passivity and pacifism. Honestly it’s a surprise he supported Yuhon and Soo-won with that approach.

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc, the rest I’m not sure why we kept seeing her for as it never paid off. But Tae-jun like I once said had good closure, he stayed in his tribe, became a good leader and activist, is doing stuff there. Lili though? What was she doing in the capital when she should’ve been working in the water tribe I’m not quite sure. Now she’s kind of in the middle of nowhere, not important to the castle, not visibly leading anything in the water tribe. I don’t understand her character’s purpose then🤷‍♀️

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore. So to me it’s seems that the only “royalty” aka royal family will from now on be Yona and her future husband/children (bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then). So to me Soo-won is no more than related to the royal family but not part of it. But idk that’s for the author to specify.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status

Another thing is I’m not sure it would even in any way elevate her status. Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe at the moment but not like we saw her working there like Yona is in the capital

Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals

Geez but if not the water tribe’s next general, then who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

Yep for now he for sure is staying the counselor, I wish we at least saw him be one, not being a spider locked up in his room

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate / "yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now" /"yessir"

Lmao accurate

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su!

I meant more their trio friendship not Hak/Soo-won specifically. But if we compare then of course in comparison to the shallow Soo-won/Yona friendship, Soo-won and Hak’s was always way deeper, they understand each other’s behavior and way of thinking very well. But by deep talks I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect, Yona never did about either of them (before betrayal).

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair

Yeah I know but from Soo-won’s words remarks I understood that she was.

She had a room of her own there. I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright? Urgh so many weird unanswered things

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc

Yep this sucks 😭 Tae-jun was harassing Yona for years, Lili was her first and best female friend, why do they get the same treatment?? Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me.

Yes, though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious. Lili was impulsive and willing to act, so she took more initiative. But again, she had the hallmarks of a leader.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore.

In Japanese, "lord" is simply the English substitute for the "-sama" honorific suffix, so it's not very informative. Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

(bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then).

....Gosh I don't want to know, that'll be a bigger asspull than Yona being queen. Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

Yep, she's likely staying in the Water Tribe. I don't know what she'll be doing there though if not general either 🫠

not being a spider locked up in his room

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last 🤣

I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect

Yep, Hak reflected on Su-Won and so the fallout of their relationship in particular should be discussed. All they talked about is the country or betrayal. But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

I "think" the ribbon he wears in his ponytail is a keepsake of hers, worn in honor. Like that's speculation because we don't know shit.

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe. Who, what relatives?? The crimson illness clan?? Hyu-ri's family lmao?? Apparently he didn't read Yonhi's diary until after he killed Il, and the way he spoke to Mei-nyan in ch 204 implied that he hadn't known he was a Hiryuu descendant until after he read it.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

What's Su-Won's interior life?? Where's his POV?? Again we did not learn enough about this character. Su's POV arc was needed.

She had a room of her own there.

Yes, I agree. I would have liked to see where she stayed, etc.

I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright?

LMAO, would have loved to see that. Doubt she would have if so.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Her relevance ended there, though she does make good cameos in the Xing arc (too intermittent though, but I thought she'd return in the castle arc...)

Yes, loved her in Xing too but after that I’m not sure what she stayed for. What were reflections about Soo-won, taking the hairpin and her constant presence with Ogi for I’m not sure. Nothing played out.

though Su-Won said Joon-gi did care, he just had more responsibilities and considerations so he was cautious

Yeah I don’t think he’s hopeless, he has that inner strength in him but his cautiousness was more passivity, he was for some reason shown waiting for Soo-won to sort things out for him. Though to be fair we weren’t shown if he was doing something independently.

Even while Yona was the actual Princess, Su-Won was still a part of the royal family.

We lack info on it but I think having royal blood doesn’t necessarily equal to being officially part of the royal family. And as Kusanagi mentioned Joon-gi wanting Lili in the royal family, it’s about the benefit it brings. By marrying Soo-won the king, Lili would’ve become royalty herself, as would her children, that’s why Joon-gi wished for it. Now that Soo-won’s not king his royal blood doesn’t really mean anything, we can see it as Joon-gi doesn’t want Lili to marry Soo-won anymore, because even if she does, nothing will change for her status. So it makes me think Soo-won is not considered royalty by anyone, in any case it means nothing.

Hak showed even less desire than Yona to rule shit!

That’s why I’m curious. They’ll marry someday eventually, it’s inevitable (unless they stay in their long-distance situationship forever lol). Marrying the queen means Hak will be king, whether they want it or not, that’s how it works, no? It wasn’t shown so that Yona gets her showtime as queen, so I’m guessing they’ll get married only years later now, I understand it but what next? Will Hak become king or the royal concubine? Or some new role they make up for him? Can’t help but wonder.

On one hand I like that Hak is finally not glued to Yona, has a “dream” of his own, to travel, to see things, so on. It’s great. But again this point of his life feels intermediary, he won’t be doing it forever, so to end the story on that…idk feels so weird.

hey we did see the spider crawl out for his city boyfriend at last

Lmao true. But I was also curious to see Soo-won the counselor in action too, his tandem with Yona and Keishuk on meetings, diplomatic missions, etc.

But how they could have been a good team, how Su-Won refused to trust him, the hairpin, etc. is never openly confronted.

Exactly, I feel like it was too important to never discuss but whatever, Hak just waved it off and left into the sunset. Bro tired.

This is what angers and baffles me as well. Why tf do we not know shit about his mother's death??? How did Su-Won keep it secret, why did he, who buried her?? Like shit, if Su-Won had buried her alone, that's not a footnote, that's an essential to his character, show that shit!

Yeah sorry but how can the death of the infamous Lord Yuhon’s wife be kept a secret, why was no one aware. I think Soo-won was stunned and maybe didn’t even want to talk about it but really how come it was not a big news and a fact everyone knew about. It’s kind of a huge thing no, so how?😅

Also, in the New Year's special, Su-Won told Hak that he has to go see some relatives instead of the Wind Tribe.

At this point I think this was a blatant lie and Soo-won was just meeting up with people for the future coup planning. He read the diary only after his coronation so it wasn’t the clan, and he has no other relatives so it’s the only thing that comes to my mind.

We also never saw Hak and Yona's reactions to Yu-Hon's death and Su-Won's entire thought process in hiding the truth.

Yeah we only saw them comfort Yona but already months (or even one month) later Yuhon died. I think Soo-won was behaving like he did with Yong-hi, continued smiling and all, so they expressed condolences but it was pretty much it I think, Soo-won wouldn’t open up to them about anything as he hated Il with his whole heart and already wanted him dead (lol).

[rainie-is-seasonchange]

"Her favourite place on earth"

Okinawa, Japan.

[die-rosastrasse]

Witchy woods 🐞🍄

My photography, Spring 2026

[maureen2musings]

Somerset, Southwest England

ola_monola

[matcha-chai-latte]

What’s funny is that with this gaiden Yona probably has the worst ending out of all the other characters.

She’s left now all alone with all those people that betrayed her and wanted her dead not so long ago. Most of her friends left to be free and happy, Soo-won got rid of the throne’s burden, Hak it seems will be traveling a lot now, she’s still not even engaged to him, will be now working her ass off until the end of her days or until they come up with a new government system.

Kinda dubious but hey it ended😅

[rollzerox]

Let's break down the people Hak left her with:

Zeno: Betrayed them in the end and caused a ton of shit, nearly got them all killed.

Soo-won: Murdered her father

Kye-sook: Has ordered her death twice and Hak's once

Mei-nyan: FRAMED YONA FOR MURDER OF AN INNOCENT MAN SHE POISONED, betrayed the dragons and nearly got Yona executed

Val: The above dumbass's boyfriend

Creepy Soo-won guard (I forgot his name) :THE GUY THAT MURDERED HER MOTHER

Joo-doh: One of the people in on the coop and chose to be in on Il's death and ousting her from the castle

REMIND ME AGAIN WHY THIS IS A GOOD THING???

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

I don't even remember Hyu-ri (creepy Su-Won guard) making an appearance this chapter. He literally existed to end Kashi and dip.

And yeah, like, at least leave Lili with her?? If Lili's willing to stay around Su-Won for some weird reason and nothing romantic came out of that, she can stay with Yona.

[matcha-chai-latte]

I don’t think Lili is willing in any way to stay around Soo-won, she called him her friend and vanished into thin air for months, leaving him waiting for her lol.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah, apparently she has no interest in being around Su-Won. So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? (Which she never does BTW LMAO)

Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him?

Why did it show her noticing when someone was emotionally off with him?

Why did it have her questioning him?

Why did she want him to talk to her?

Why is there ZERO followup to any of this? It's baffling that she still doesn't know he was seriously ill and almost died by the end of the series.

And yeah, I guess Su-Won really is gonna stay asexual and never tell her anything lol. I guess she will never know of his circumstances, even though she said she wanted to.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Amazing. Great build up, ZERO payoff. AOT's ending is better than Yona's. At least we got some actual resolutions. This feels like a story cut in half.

[matcha-chai-latte]

So why did the story waste so many chapters of her thinking that he's not her enemy, and she wants to learn of his circumstances? Why show her following him around Hiryuu Castle to understand him? Why did it have her questioning him?

Big question mark.

For what Lili had to stay in the capital after Sei arc I can’t even imagine. Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that. She stayed around Soo-won for that to never lead to even good friendship or conversations, why was she curious about his bodyguards, about Ogi? Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

I actually still can't believe this is it. Like WTF. “i want to learn of his circumstances” proceeds to NEVER HAVE HER LEARN THEM.

Yep. I don’t know if Lili visiting him in gaiden 1 was even necessary. She called him a friend but what for, to never become his friend in fact? All we saw is that she called him that, then disappeared and never came back to visit, leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too). I don’t know what to think.

And yeah the hairpin she took vanished, all her wants to learn about Soo-won were for nothing as she learnt nothing really, and what she was wanting that for I dunno either. Lili herself is a very wasted character unfortunately

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ngl, if Su-Won is going to stay an asexual character working himself to death, then... why not have him just stay king? I don't say this in a biased way either, I truly don't mind Yona being the queen, it just had to be built in a way that makes it clear the throne is what she aims for herself, which we lacked. Su-Won had the alliances, kingdom reformation, etc. he was building up, all for it become irrelevant in less than a year.

I also don't really buy that the timeskip scene was planned the way it ended up... in the scene, Yona was being called "Princess"... but 200 chapters later, the same vision she gets, that same line is corrected to "Queen". It just screams CHANGE to me, not some clever foreshadowing.

Why was she even there? Literally anyone could’ve put out the fire in the capital, I don’t think anything hinted at that being her purpose, and tbh she didn’t even get that much credit for that

I remember when I was waiting for Su-Won (or even Yona!) to acknowledge everything she had done. A thank you, some public recognition in front of the citizens or generals.

She became so irrelevant once the castle arc started (chapter 183ish) I think she should have marched straight into Hiryuu Castle to speak to Su-Won after the tournament set up the chairs that way at Yona's expense. Lili would have called him out on it (she would be the only one with the nerve and standing), and that would have been a perfect reentrance into the story. Not to mention, Kye-sook had already shown some signs of being unnerved by Lili, so what was the point in not utilizing that?

More Lili vs Kye-sook tension would have been interesting.

I really wish Yona and Lili had teamed up, like they had during the Xing arc against Su-Won's army and all those generals, that was the potential of two women going against a male-dominated society right there. We needed more!

Her only business there was hanging out with Ogi there and tell him about the “tofu face” joke? Lame.

Honestly idek if that scene with Ogi calling him that implied that he learned it from Lili. Maybe, maybe not, maybe both of them saw him that way. He just calls him "you nonchalant tofu bastard".

In any case, maybe it was chosen to not be addressed for the sake of ambiguity (or not), but I think this whole lack of closure wasn't it. It undermines payoff, rather than leave things open-ended in an actually intriguing way.

If you say a woman wants to learn about Su-Won's circumstances, show her learning them! Like goddamn, what did she even learn? That he's a good king? Everyone knew that! The most she was about to learn was when he thought about the hairpin right before shutting her down, like yes! That's what we fucking wanted to see! Not a sidenote in a fanbook!

leaving him waiting (for unknown reasons too)

At this point I'm taking the guy at face value. He says he wasn't waiting for her, so... okay. That's the answer. And who knows, he might be gay too lmao 💀, what am I supposed to conclude from those cryptic-ass words to Hak? At this point I'm just gonna assume he told Hak he was in love with him and the manga couldn't print it because of the time period (Kidding... mostly)

I genuinely don't care anymore because this ending is so absurd. This man bluntly rejects Lili, doesn't give a single personal detail about himself, yet has a hush hush moment with Hak alone that might have been the most repressed confession ever.

The ethereal lighting, the hollowed look, the "privacy"... Seriously, what the fuck did he say to Hak privately, for Hak to go O.O like that??

"DUDE YOU'RE GAY???" Forever one of this manga's greatest mysteries.

And besides, that new Earth Tribe general (younger Geun-tae 2.0) appeared and was getting well along with her, so who knows, Lili could end up with Geun-tae 2.0 too.

At this point, my only hope is an anime-only ending.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging and then Lili wondering where Yona is as usual in the final arc.

Saving their whole capital from burning and from being completely destroyed by Chagol with his dromos

Yeah, saving a capital from burning to ash deserves a whole award! Lili deserved better.

I think it came from her honestly, comparing Soo-won’s face to tofu is too specific for both Ogi and Lili to have formed this comparison separately I think. Lili has been hanging out with Ogi all the time, surely talked about Soo-won a lot.

Well, it's possible. It's also possible that she could have bought the pin too after making sure Su-Won was okay and reporting to Ogi... we don't see a thing! This cutoff.... was it intentional for the sake of ambiguity?

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Fine, but at least answer the questions about the pin?? Lili can at least learn about Su-Won too, like she was being set up to?? Concrete answers can still be given even if they don't end up!

Omg I liked the Keishuk - Lili confrontations too, Keishuk hated Lili so much he didn’t even want Soo-won to marry her in the end He looked pissed at the idea here. He even wanted to get rid of her at all as she created disturbances.

Yes! I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back. In canon Yona called out but Lili could have too. It also genuinely felt like it was being set up for Lili to learn more about the coup, how it was planned, how Yona was tracked down, hunted and ordered by Kye-Sook to be killed.

What's the point of Lili wanting to know more about the assassination details if she never learns them??

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

Another thing we never learned, how the coup was carried out! The mechanics of it, who Su-Won approached first, how he got the guards to stand down, what he offered. His mother didn't know shit about it. Plus the aftermath, the guilt Su-Won faced for letting Yona see the crime, we should have gotten that from Su-Won's own mouth!

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV of his own past, how did he grieve his father's death, his mother's death, what that looked like for him day to day. We don't even know why he's so invested in democracy now, what's shifted, etc. etc.

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

I genuinely don't think we understood who Su-Won is as a person by the end of this. Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss! (Although who knows, he might just deflect and keep certain things from Ogi too, wouldn't be surprised, he never told Lili about his illness). Ogi said Su-Won never talked about himself. Will that ever change? Guess we'll never know.

I think it was Soo-won’s final farewell to Hak, a certainty from him they won’t see each other again. Soo-won said “I even said my goodbyes to Hak”

The thing is though, if it was just "goodbye", why was it so important to hash out the text?? Like that would have gotten the message across, and would have hit harder if he contradicted himself later and lived. It's just weird. Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"? Considering Su-Won is a private person whatever he told Hak could have hit really hard or been unusual.

But who knows. This chapter we saw Soo-won running like crazy after Gulfan to see if Hak returned, in any case it shows he cares about Hak more than about anyone else (not the Griffith/Guts parallels). So idk and idc really anymore either

Yeah, although probably not as much as his father (who he was implied to love very unhealthily). That relationship shaped everything about him, for better or worse.

But honestly, at this point, if not asexual, he's probably more in love with Hak than any woman. He flat out said he wasn't waiting for Lili, yet will run across a city for Hak in canon. This is Griffith -> Guts behavior. And yet somehow, THAT relationship, the one that matters most to Su-Won, gets less closure than the other relationships in the story? Hilarious really.

Not to mention, we never even saw Su-Won's reaction to Hak and Yona being romantically involved, that too was just offhandedly in a fanbook footnote instead of an actual moment in the story. The same goes for whether he viewed Yona like a younger sister or woman. His sexuality was never explored in any depth from start to end.

Yeah, I mean she argues with literally everyone so idk what’s their vibe yet (and won’t know it seems). I’m still mad Lili is left all alone, even Meinyan’s got a bf bruh

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

[matcha-chai-latte]

When did Yona thank her? I remember them hugging

Ah then my memory’s failing me. Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

I remember the mangaka answered in an interview, "I'm not sure if that (Lili and Su-Won being romantically together) will happen either..." Maybe she wanted that open-ended, never confirmed?

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn. Why couldn’t we get more romance in a romantic manga tho. It’s like that thing with Soo-won admitting his mistakes I guess, last minute change. Maybe the author wanted for them to get together but then made up her mind idk.

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

I also think Lili could have been the perfect person to call Su-Won out on allowing Kye-sook to act on his own without ever pushing back.

Lili is better at it than even Yona as Lili is very direct and “straight to the point”. She would for sure ask Soo-won and fight Keishuk somehow. Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much.

In fact I was thinking that Kye-sook, might have even plotted to get rid of/kill off Lili if she kept involving herself! Wasted opportunity.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her, it could mean exactly that too coming from Keishuk. In any case that’s exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

And Su-Won's thought process too. We know almost nothing about his POV

Yep, that I regret not seeing too

The one moment where we see something personally revealing for Su-Won is when Lili brings up his memories of the pin; even then we're denied his face entirely. No reaction shot, nothing. He quite literally has to cut her off mid-sentence like he can't stand to hear another word about the subject. I refuse to believe that he and Hak would not treat that object like a grenade if they saw it even now.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment.

No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Now Ogi forced him to tag along... that is NOT a talk we should miss!

Yeees I would’ve loved to see that.

Plus the guard said it was privately told to Hak and no one else, which is weirdly notable. But what's so notable about just saying "goodbye"?

The guard was talking about the whole Yona the successor thing there, I mean Hak and Soo-won were completely alone hiding from guards so technically correct. Plus I remember how Hak remembered Soo-won and the blurred message when someone mentioned “returning”. So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

What implied it to me was when the Geuntae 2.0 said that he and Lili get along well, then told Lili to not treat him like a greenhorn, because of her rule that all men are greenhorns until they're 35. They continued bantering, ignoring Yona. I guess it was left in limbo too (a will-they-won't-they) because maybe the author may lack interest or burned out.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. If the author was super burnt out I don’t think she’d add new characters at all. I’d bet she’s exhausted though so idk. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Shit so no thanks at all? Wow

...Yeah. Lili was hyped up for so much more than this.

Oh wow she even talked about it? If she wasn’t sure then it was at least a possibility in canon too god damn

It was regarding a question about whether Lili's husband would be the Water Tribe general or if she would be the general, and how generals are picked. The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

What pisses me off most is that they’re not even good friends, that even their friendly dynamic was abandoned and that the hairpin trope was left unattended, those are my main complaints first and foremost.

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her. Now if she learned he was sick, then yeah. But no.

Bro literally almost ran over a toddler, Lili can’t like him too much

Exactly, Lili would be better than Yona at it. I needed more tension where Kye-sook may even consider killing her and Lili has to pick up on the signs, that would be so peak.

I thought that’s exactly what he meant when asking Soo-won if they should “remove” her,

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

But of course, if she got too involved with Yona once she returned to the palace and started actively threatening the crown... then Kye-sook may act, yeah.

exactly why Soo-won got Lili removed from the castle right before Yona came, he knew she’d create commotion here as the situation would be tense, Keishuk would for sure not tolerate that any more being already on edge.

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament, and then... the castle arc just never shows the outside world for a while, because Yona is too busy reading Yon-hi's diary. We only see Lili again later on just before Chagol sets the castle on fire and people are out for war, when she meets Mei-nyan.

Yep, and that memory flash of Yona’s smiling face comes right after Hak wondering why he gave Yona that hairpin, I remember Hak wondering if Soo-won didn’t feel anything when he gave it to her. Seems he did since he remembered her face specifically in that moment. No one can ever convince me that hairpin is not important anymore.

Yep. Hak wondered why, thinks he felt nothing, yet a ch later, Su-Won's mind went straight to her smiling face and pin. That pin 100% had relevance in Su-Won's arc, yet it's been abandoned (unless the author plans to make a sequel, idk).

So I guess whatever Soo-won said had something negative about seeing each other again or coming back. Maybe he said don’t come back? Or we won’t meet again? Hak also looked stunned when Soo-won said “it’s my last duty as king”. So I think it was more about losing Soo-won to death or whatever.

Maybe... I just wish we'd actually found out or Hak had addressed it with him.

I’d loved to see more either way, be it a pure Lili/earth tribe guy thing or the Soo-won/Lili/Kurif thing lmao. We’ll see. I don’t like the ending but I’ve accepted it, if we ever got anything else would be great. But for now it’s what we have, yeah.

Yep, my stance as well. If Su is really ace, I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

[matcha-chai-latte]

The answer was like, "no, it's not hereditary, so her husband won't necessarily be on the course to being the general, neither does it mean Lili will become a general. Besides, at the moment, Joon-gi wants Lili be a bride of the royal family... I'm not sure if that will happen either"

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yeah, not enough of an emotional connection by the end. Su-Won doesn't confide enough with her.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I thought it was more like, they don't want her in the palace because she only caused problems, she should go back to the Water Tribe. That's what Kye-sook told her anyway. Killing her while Joon-gi sent her there is only going to cause tribal issues, so I don't think that was it.

Yeah though I’d say killing a person that agitates troops by loud speeches would’ve been a more effective solution from a person like Keishuk, sending her away was even more dangerous than having her right there imo. Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Er, I don't remember him removing her from the castle right before Yona's arrival ever happening, Lili quite literally was at the tournament,

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc, then right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. I remember how Soo-won didn’t allow Lili to go to Ogi’s place so that she doesn’t get in trouble/arguments there, then she created huge commotion because of Yona. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted.

I'll take Lili/earth tribe guy even, my girl Lili is pretty af and deserves to have a few admirers.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Ooh I see. Interesting info. Never gets pay-off either though as Lili is alone af

Yep. At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her? Is her legacy just going to be, 'the previous general's daughter' and nothing more? What does she have in her own right?

Not to mention, Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively? For a character with such leadership and vitality, Lili deserved more prominence! She's sharp, proactive, presence... and her efforts literally saved the Sky capital! She should be super popular with them. What's her arc building her towards?

But I guess the story would rather focus on an exposition device like Mei-nyan...... sad really. In another world, Mei-nyan could have been a great female anti-hero/antagonist.

Not at all I’d say, she doesn’t know anything about him and he didn’t tell her anything either. Like she only judged him by watching his actions, not learning anything important sadly

I wonder why. The author has tended to abandon confrontations between the trio almost intentionally (she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father (also the man her friend used to love) off limits. By making sure Lili never gets too close to Su-Won, the whole issue of confronting that controversy gets buried. So Kusanagi may basically be hedging, she can't (or won't) commit to writing the necessary confrontations/revelations. So, the story feels anticlimactic.

Keishuk didn’t think twice and got Hak imprisoned as soon as he acquired knowledge that could endanger Soo-won’s reign as far as I remember (it was Keishuk right?)

Su-Won was dying, and Hak was an active threat to his life. Lili? Well, she's a friend of Yona, but Su-Won and Judo also knew she was alive.

I agree sending her away was more dangerous technically, but Lili also made it clear to Su-Won in front of Kye-sook that she did not want to threaten his reign, since Su-Won was her savior as well.

But yeah. Really, what was with Kye-Sook's reaction when Geun-tae suggested he was going to marry Lili lmao? Seems like another wasted opportunity for tension.

Lili was living in the castle up till Kuelbo arc

Yeah. What was the actual point of that in hindsight lmao?

right after it before Yona returned she stopped appearing there, at the tournament she entered already from the outside (for some reason with all common folk though she’s a noble lady). So I do think she was checked out from the castle right before Yona came. Logically I think he thought she’d get in arguments because of Yona or smth

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there (probably checked out by Su-Won, yes... I wish they'd actually shown us that, as well as both of their reactions). It's pretty annoying how Su-Won was constantly confining Lili ngl...

One thing I never liked about the castle arc was that it never showed Lili actually trying to get into the castle to see Yona and Su-Won after the tournament, especially considering Yona was quarantined and everything.

so they “removed her” like Keishuk wanted

Thing is, she never went back to the Water Tribe capital like Kye-Sook wanted. She stayed in Kuuto.

Right? To me the fact that Yona has like 10 men in love with her while Lili has no one is no less than an insult. Even Meinyan had men thinking she’s pretty, stuff with Val, Chagol, Judoh and even Jae-ha, Kouren and Tao have guys in love with them, yet Lili is somehow unattractive to anyone? Only had that embarrassing crush on Geun-tae, I can’t believe that.

For some weird reason, Mei-nyan was given more screentime than Lili in these arcs. Lili seriously was robbed! Justice for Lili!

[matcha-chai-latte]

At least, she could've been given the role of general, but the interview implied that she may not, which sucks... cause if she doesn't get that title, what does her character actually have going for her?

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Kusanagi said she wasn't sure Lili would join the royal family by marrying Su-Won either, so if neither path is for her.... what's left for her narratively?

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on, and I’m pretty sure Kusanagi didn’t intend him to stay king from start. So Lili never would’ve joined the royal family really.

But as the story ended Lili is not getting together with anyone, and even if I imagine she did, I’m not sure where would it take her. Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one, maybe they could’ve united them or smth to rule them. Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Like literally her future is so undetermined at the moment, I have no idea where would anything lead her. I don’t see Lili being a lonely woman her whole life as she’s quite romantic the story showed.

she's apparently said that Hak and Su-Won would never again have the same kind of talk as they did on the rooftop, their communication going forward will only be through actions, not words). She unfortunately may not think the trio needs real, direct confrontations OR she feels she is incapable of pulling it off. Which means: lots of emotional depth and tension gets ZERO payoff. And lost opportunities for character growth or actual accountability.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute. Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Well like I’ve been saying their friendship was never that deep to begin with, they only were friends through “actions” ever since they were children, cared for each other throughout “actions” after the betrayal and now coexist through “actions” and common work. No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

The same logic may apply to Lili and Su-Won because she is still Yona's friend, and so, to the author, that friendship may make marrying the guy who killed her best friend's father

That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately. By being Yona’s friend, accepting Soo-won’s reign and seeing him as a friend should’ve already been a taboo for Lili too but wasn’t, she was kinda on both sides from start and didn’t want anything bad happen to either of them.

So with that position of Lili already there while Soo-won was Yona’s enemy, the romance could’ve been a challenge before Yona forgave Soo-won, now tho they’re on good terms again so I see no issue other than Soo-won being ace lmao. Another problem is that indeed such a romance is complicated and would need a longer story to develop it well, there would be lots of nuance for it too (like Yona learning and being wary of the idea for Lili’s sake).

But yeah, what pains me is that we didn’t see even this “friendship” of their in action either unfortunately, I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends.

Well, her bodyguards did say that they'd be staying in Kuuto initially until she got an audience with the king, so I imagine they had a place to stay in the castle town and went back there

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too. And when Yona appeared it seems her access there was denied (like Hak’s at the beginning) because I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder.

[thoughtfulstudentsalad23]

Yeah…Lili showed so much love and devotion to her tribe that I did see her as its future leader or at least Joon-gi’s official successor for that role but at the moment not much hint for that either, Joon-gi didn’t introduce Lili as his heir like Geun-tae did with Kurif soo…

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Well the “royal family” Lili really wouldn’t ever join even if she did get together with Soo-won in the future as he’s king no more, he’s “lord” Soo-won from now on Getting together with Kurif could mean good relations between the earth tribe and the water one

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status. Like, she doesn't just exist to be Su-Won's wife, or Joon-gi's daughter. Or Kurif's wife. Or Yona's friend. It'd be cool if she got with someone, but Lili shouldn't elevate her position only in relation to others.

Getting together with Soo-won I have no idea what would lead to now. Would he leave his counselor post to live with her in the water tribe and rule it together? Or would she leave the water tribe to have a role in the capital?

Well, Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals... but it would have been interesting if Su-Won ever left his position and started living in the Water Tribe... although, rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

So basically they’ll only coexist now but never talk. Cute.

Yep, this is so ironic, with all the focus on SuHak we got.

Yona does talk to Soo-won casually now but actually I’m not sure I like that she never directed anger at him like Hak did, not even once. Doesn’t hit off well to me at least, the whole anger/pain drama was building up to just perish and turn into casual talks as if nothing happened.

Yeah, she didn't. The story builds up a lot of internal rage/grief from her, even with her political growth. But there's a fundamental lack of true payoff where she made Su-Won truly face the consequences of his actions.

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate"

"yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now"

"yessir"

what's this customer service to govt group project pipeline?? 😭

No deep talks ever took place with them and never will so it’s pretty ic.

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su! I still feel like this dynamic deserved better, especially considering Hak is implied to be the most important person to Su-Won rn...

I don’t see them as true friends at the point we ended. And I hate Yona doesn’t know they’re friends. That was the utter beautiful complexity of Lili which never got developed into anything unfortunately

Yep, it could have really developed Lili's character. Yona never learned that Lili was hanging out at the castle either.

Yeah I know but Lili did apparently live in the castle as Soo-won asked her “how long are you staying in the castle”, by the times she appeared there I’d say she literally lived there too.

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair. I would have liked to see her pass through Yona's room, or wonder where ll was assasinated, where she was staying, etc.

I can’t imagine Lili not wanting to see Yona and talk to Soo-won about the whole tournament dirty situation. So apparently she got checked out of there by Soo-won or Keishuk right before Yona came, most likely Keishuk as he was the one who feared she’d cause agitation again like that time in Xing. Soo-won tried saying she has no influence but Keishuk believed otherwise and acted against Soo-won’s words multiple times so no wonder

I'd have liked to see that tbh. Both right before the castle arc, if we saw Kye-sook check her out, or during the castle arc, if she tried to get into the castle to question Su-Won and Yona and was prevented. She needed more involvement.

[matcha-chai-latte]

Sad... it's like she only loved it because she was her father's daughter? What happened to her stating several times that she is not like Joon-gi? And with such love for her tribepeople and burning desire to save them from Nadai... this character deserves merit.

Joon-gi didn’t even love the tribe as much as Lili did, she seemed way more passionate about it to me. Joon-gi didn’t show himself as a good tribe leader even, he resembled Il in his passivity and pacifism. Honestly it’s a surprise he supported Yuhon and Soo-won with that approach.

Lili turned out to be a Tae-jun 2.0 as her relevance ends in Sei arc, the rest I’m not sure why we kept seeing her for as it never paid off. But Tae-jun like I once said had good closure, he stayed in his tribe, became a good leader and activist, is doing stuff there. Lili though? What was she doing in the capital when she should’ve been working in the water tribe I’m not quite sure. Now she’s kind of in the middle of nowhere, not important to the castle, not visibly leading anything in the water tribe. I don’t understand her character’s purpose then🤷‍♀️

He's still a member of the royal family because he has royal blood. So, Lili still would join the royal family by marriage, just not the queen.

Depends what does “royal family” mean in Kouka. Yuhon lost his prince status forever when Il became king, he became lord/general only. Same for Soo-won, lord Soo-won now makes the statement he’s not considered royalty anymore. So to me it’s seems that the only “royalty” aka royal family will from now on be Yona and her future husband/children (bruh I wonder if Hak even ever becomes king officially like Il predicted or was it all bullshit then). So to me Soo-won is no more than related to the royal family but not part of it. But idk that’s for the author to specify.

Thing is, though... even if she marries Su-Won, I personally don't like this idea that it would be the only thing that would elevate her status

Another thing is I’m not sure it would even in any way elevate her status. Who would she be with Soo-won? The counselor’s wife? Or another counselor? I don’t see Lili anywhere but in the water tribe at the moment but not like we saw her working there like Yona is in the capital

Kusanagi said that it isn't guaranteed Lili or her hypothetical husband would become generals

Geez but if not the water tribe’s next general, then who on earth could Lili become, I’m at loss then🫠

rn at least he seems too star-eyed about making Kouka a democracy to stop advising.

Yep for now he for sure is staying the counselor, I wish we at least saw him be one, not being a spider locked up in his room

Like I said, their "resolution" was basically "i get why you did it, no hate / "yep. too bad about ruining-your-life part... anyway go rule now" /"yessir"

Lmao accurate

No deep talks?? But there were! esp between Hak and Su!

I meant more their trio friendship not Hak/Soo-won specifically. But if we compare then of course in comparison to the shallow Soo-won/Yona friendship, Soo-won and Hak’s was always way deeper, they understand each other’s behavior and way of thinking very well. But by deep talks I meant personal knowledge, as people they don’t know that much about one another. But to be fair we saw Hak try figure it out and reflect, Yona never did about either of them (before betrayal).

Actually off topic but it baffles me that neither Hak nor Yona even knew Soo-won’s mother died. I wonder how’s that possible, she died while Il was alive, there was no funeral for the wife of the king’s brother? Tf? Did Soo-won bury her with his own hands in a forest or what?😅

It didn't show Lili living there, to be fair

Yeah I know but from Soo-won’s words remarks I understood that she was.

She had a room of her own there. I wonder how her “check-out” even went lol, Keishuk be like fcking finally! GTFO!🤣. She took that alright? Urgh so many weird unanswered things

[thcartierrug]