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I know this is sadly seen as a heated topic in the ROV fandom and community so I assure and promise that I ask this genuinely out of curiosity and because I want to understand things better but has Ikeda made any comments regarding the scene where Andre assaults Oscar? I have interpreted it as an old unfortunate trope of its time (plus we see similar stuff even in modern stories today, for example there is this whole genre known as Dark romance) where the man assaulting or almost forcing himself on the woman is seen as romantic or passionate, like "oh, he loves and wants her so much that he wasn't able to control himself anymore!". Plus I also thought that Ikeda was trying to showcase the desperation Andre feels and the tragicness of his situation. Like, he loves Oscar but cannot marry her due to him being lower social class than her and he is losing his eyesight which means soon he won't ever be able to see the woman he loves so all of that drives him to make a poor decision and lapse in reasoning and thus he ends up assaulting Oscar. So I wondered if Ikeda has every commented why she wrote that scene or why she wrote Andre the way she did in that scene?
My grievance with that scene is that it is never brought up again after it happens and Oscar and Andre never discuss it afterwards. I also find it unfortunate that Oscar starts to see Andre as a man after he assaulted her. I want to clarify that I am not against characters doing problematic things because even in real life people sometimes make problematic choices in good and loving relationships. If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts about that scene? It's fine if you don't want to answer that but I would be interested to heard (well, read) your thoughts and opinions about it. Do you think it is fine as it is or do you wish it had been handled differently?
Sorry about this essay and thank you so much in advance and thank you so much for all your hard work for the ROV fandom!
No, she hasnât. I have never seen her speak on it in anything I have read anyway.
What I think about it.
I have been a RoV fan for over 24 years and honestly only in recent years have I seen this be such a HUGE issue. This is pretty par for the course in historical fiction and with Ikeda. If people are this bothered they should go away. This is not for them.
I get the discomfort, but I also understand that it does have a narrative purpose and it pushes the characters forward and I am honestly not mad at it, I don't think it is nearly as bad as people make it out to be and I donât think we need to âpretendâ it didnât happen. Yes, I would say it is an outdated trope but I think it still works today, for a piece of historical fiction, for what its being used for. But people lack the capacity to look at it properly and past their kneejerk reaction to it. I also don't see it as, "dark romance" or romance at all. Its dramatic, tragic and emotional.
People focus so much on the Andre half of this scene so letâs start with Oscar and what this does for her character.
To start. People give Oscar far too much credit. She isnât the most considerate person or the most emotionally intelligent. Throughout the story she is shown to overlook peoples feelings and is very slow in learning about herself and others.
It takes being hit over the head or her experiencing the same things to fully understand people, especially when it comes to emotions. She was built for a specific role and doesn't really think about much outside of that.
She disregards Marie Antoinetteâs loneliness and desire to be loved, then realizes she isnât immune to that either (even falls for the same guy). She is extremely dismissive and kinda mean to Rosalie, then she herself experiences unrequited love and finally understands and empathizes with her (the very misinterpreted marriage line scene). We have Fersen ask her if she is lonely living her life they way she does, which she answers 'no'. Only for Girodelle to ask her again later and she hesitates, because yes, by age 33 she is and also has a better understanding of love. Oscar and Marie Antoinette never really understand each other and there is always a disconnect, until their final meeting where Oscar, through her love for Andre finally understands Antoinette as a woman.
Her treatment of Andre is also not great..
Top of Oscar's crimes list here is the whole Black Knight fiasco. While the scene is played out comedically, Andre is forced by her into this very stupid plan. Forced to cut his hair, risk his life and belittled the whole time by Oscar and nanny. This is quite an abuse of power by Oscar as his master and also of his feelings, as he thinks the only reason he is doing it is because it is for her. Then of course he looses his eye, we see Oscar's guilt and a bit of her sense of possession over him with the first "my Andre". This could be read as hidden feelings coming to light in the heat of the moment or as the more nefarious "you broke my property". I think its a bit of both.
A lot of people, use the âOscar started to see him as a manâ phrase for this scene. While true, maybe it gives the wrong impression. This isn't a dark romance, sexual sexy moment, for either of them. So Iâll try this one.
Oscar never saw Andre as being any different from her.
She didnât see him as a man. She didnât think he had any desires that she didnât. Needs that she didnât. Feelings that she didnât. I sometimes don't think she even saw him as his own person. He was more an extension of herself, a third arm, always there to do what she need. So when this happens, its unexpected and she is forced to see him as his own person and THAT is what is scary.
So not only does Oscar now have to think about Andre's desires, needs and feelings...She has to think about hers, because that is how she works.
When it is said that this the start of her "sexual awakening" its not "oh that turned me on" *wink wink dark romance* its "oh that is a thing, I never thought about that, Andre feels that thing, do have those feelings too then?"
Answer is yes, we see from here on that she is extremely sexually attracted to Andre. (and is almost seduced by Girodelle) But it isn't because of that scene being physically sexual or arousing, its about the idea planted in her head that she now has to confront within herself.
The scene is after she has her talk with Fersen and he tells her
"Welp sorry I thought you were dude, maybe if you were more girl looking I'd have liked you back, duces" So she is feeling a certain sort of way and Andre senses this.
She is sitting it the dark (it is dark, no one can see, I think people forget this, for what its worth) feeling sad. As the conversation progresses Andre knows something happened with Fersen, and of course he knows Fersen doesn't return Oscar's feelings. He askes what happened and Oscar refuses to tell him and he gets mad that she is keeping things from him. So he one ups her with his insane confession. Worst possible moment to do so.
I agree with your assessment on Andre. I think he is desperate, his situation is bleak, and he has a moment of crazed weakness. This is also meant to shock us all, audience, Oscar and Andre himself as this scene is very uncharacteristic for him from what we have seen so far. There is also the fact that they are master and servant to add to the mix.
I think it is important to note that his main goal throughout this whole scene is to get her to listen to him (I imagine she doesn't do that often) and he is doing so by holding onto her. He also keeps saying he would rather die and be killed, he is baiting her to call her father and have him shot. (Her father, just come in and shoot him? Does this say something about anything? That he could just do that?) So he is a bit suicidal too. What is being said is much more disturbing then what is being done.
A large part of this scene is also to highlight his "great passion and restraint" and at the time it was considered very admirable and people liked this scene for that reason. Here is "the times" and outdated trope. It is an assault though, I don't think anyone would deny that but the point of this scene isn't that it is an assault. The point isn't the physical act but the emotional repercussions, which get so largely ignored it becomes not worth even talking about this scene.
I know Oscar and Andre never talk about what happened and I understand the disappointment with that. But it doesn't go unresolved or without follow up. We see Oscar realize she is very selfish when it comes to Andre, that she makes his life difficult, that she wouldn't be able to live her life the way she does if not for him and her whole female sexuality thing which is also an out of story achievement as it showed women as subjects of desire as opposed to just being objects.
Everything ties into her realization of equality and living her life on her own terms, which enables her to open herself up to returning Andre's feelings and breaking from the nobility. I think a lot of this gets ignored because people don't look at how this scene contributes to Oscar's growth via her relationship to Andre. For god sake its a story about class and he is our one commoner, the main characters' servant. Everything between has weight and importance to that main theme as well. People are too busy seeing Oscar as a victim to notice the growth she gets out of this. Granted I know most of the people who feel that way don't like the Oscar/Andre relationship or really Oscar either, if we are being honest, so it would be easy to miss.
Controversial opinion. I think for the short form serialized medium that The Rose of Versailles is, the scene is fine. I'm not really sure what else could have been done at this point in the story to get the characters moving to where they needed to be while also beating Aim for the Ace in the polls, so..? I think If it was adapted into some other longer "for TV" format it could be handled differently, It would look differently, staged differently. I mean look at the anime, it completely changed the context and made it 10 times worse! But I don't think the bones are bad, its supposed to be uncomfortable shocking drama:
Two friends of 20 years sitting in the dark talking about their past, the woman is hiding something form the other and won't tell, the man knows its about his rival for her love, they start to argue, he tells her to call out for help but she doesn't, the man confesses his impossible love to the woman not caring if it means his death and kisses her, poetic word vomit, she is in shock, he is ready to die by the hand of her father, finally she calls for help in the name of the other man she is in love with, in the struggle the man rips her shirt, everyone in shock, he immediately stops and apologizes.
ÂŻ\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
That all being said I do think the poison scene does a lot of the same work and maybe even a little better, I think it is an easy replacement for this scene or the two could almost be mixed together. It almost feels like it was a late to arrive better idea that got missed the first time around. We will never know.
Iâm going to be blunt. I think most takes on this scene are really lazy, shallow cop outs "assault bad" like omg the sky is blue and the grass is green. Please don't waste our time. I think a lot of it is posturing or people being too scared to be judged by people on the internet and over correcting by talking to much about it as if they need to make sure EVERYONE knows they know its #BAD.
This is #1 bad faith topic and close to 99.9% of people who bring it up don't care about anything other then saying "I know assault bad, omg HIT TWEET" It is an argument that they see as being a 100% win because no one can argue against that.
Regarding the poison scene doing a lot of the same things: I completely agree with that, but I have to say that I think the poison scene would not work well if this scene had not come first.
Her that her happiness and comfort mean the most to him. More than his own self. His own afterlife. His eternity.
And even though she's too far mired to convince herself to fight for her own happiness, she can sure as hell fight for his. He needs her to. He cannot do it for himself; he does not have that power.
But he NEEDED HER to stand up for herself. He needed it because he could not do it himself; he did not have the right or the power to save or protect her.
It's an unpleasant scene but Oscar needed something to slap her out of that helplessness she was imagining for herself that wasn't even real.
Also, VERY UNDERRATED section of your post is that some of this was for the serialization factor. Cliffhangers and drama that won't be fully resolved each chapter is super exciting for readers and rating polls and the like, which was important for this series. I am sure if Ikeda had the chance to write the whole thing over again, knowing the ending of her story and how much space she had, we'd have a rather different story.
But I don't really want that, so I won't think too much about it. Despite its flaws, I love this series.
Love this. While there are probably different ways things could have been done or shifted around I really don't think they need to be. These two scenes are fine imo and do work well together. Both are needed to push Oscar at these different moments in the story (and are I believe a couple years apart?). I think she gets forgotten a lot in discussions about these two, as well as the more unpleasant aspects of her character. For something that was serialized things really do connect and pull together really well. Rov really is one of those stories that I am very satisfied with and don't feel the need for anything to change. Even everyone dying! đ
The emphasis he places on death, death as a form of freedom within a history of social classes, death does not distinguish ranks or medals or "purity of blood", This applies to everyone.
At that point, then, we see that only in death would they be so alike and free to love each other (which is why that post-mortem reunion scene is so important).It does not cater to a mere romantic discourse but to the thinking of the time, that is why The New Heloise also has weight here, it is a reflection of the thinking of the time.
A cyanotype blueprint, a map of who we are. In light and darkness, we become the contrast that defines the lines of our loveâan embrace, fingers interlaced, hands joined, and hearts forever connected.
------
This piece started as a simple sketch, but evolved into a play of white and blue contrasts to create a cold, atmospheric touch. From that chill, I wanted to rescue the warmth of the union between our beloved OA. The result is this ethereal monochrome.
Small, intimate moments where they could share their love. Those days when they were able to love each other, I would love to see more of that. I hope I can draw more moments like these.
Rosalie is a character loosely based on the historical figure Rosalie LamorliĂšre (1768â1848), the last servant to Marie Antoinette before her execution.
Rosalie was incorporated into The Rose of Versailles relatively early to highlight the contrast between Marie Antoinetteâs life at court and the lives of the people in Paris. She also functions as an audience surrogate and was meant to be a character younger readers could relate to.
Rosalie is eight years younger than Oscar and meets her when she is twelve years old. Oscar takes her in, gives her a home, and decides to teach her how to read, fight, and blend into society so that Rosalie can eventually search for her birth mother.
Many readers were enamored with Oscar, and Ikeda, already influenced by the Class S stories popular during her motherâs generation gave Rosalie a one-sided âonee-samaâ admiration/crush. This further increased Rosalieâs relatability for younger readers.
Common Fandom Misinformation
Rosalieâs age
Eight years younger than Oscar and twelve when they meet:
This information has existed since early in the manga's run and in official materials. Her age was also part of her appeal as an audience surrogate as the story focus shifted to the now adult Oscar.
âRosalieâs age was retconnedâ
False.
Her age was revealed early in serialization, included in Margaret Q&A sections, and has been known within the fandom from the beginning. Her portrayal, how she is drawn, how she behaves, and how other characters treat her also makes her age obvious.
âHer age is different in the animeâ
False.
It is very clear that Rosalie is a child. People do not hold fellow adults on their laps the way Oscar does with Rosalie that would be strange and inappropriate. Very obvious tell.
âOscar was in love with Rosalie (canon)â
False.
Oscar consistently refers to Rosalie as a younger sister figure. The frequently circulated âmarriageâ line is taken out of context: it is actually about Oscarâs feelings for Fersen. The sceneâs purpose is to show that Oscar now understands unrequited love and is empathizing with Rosalie, not confessing romantic feelings toward her.
âRosalie was Oscarâs original love interestâ
"In the end, it naturally stuck to Andre. Thatâs a strong character, someone who is always by your side"
Totally forced.
âRosalie was written outâ
False.
Rosalie is never written out. How people think this? I don't know. Her main character arc concludes, but she reappears multiple times, including the sequel and ALL major spin-off works. Claims otherwise usually come from people who have not read the manga closely or engaged with the greater Rose of Versailles IP.
âRosalie was hated by fansâ
False.
Was she the MOST popular character? No. Did her chapters perform as well as Oscarâs or Marie Antoinetteâs? No. Some fans were jealous of her closeness to Oscar, but there was no widespread hatred or backlash. Rosalie consistently ranks among the seriesâ most notable characters. Currently ranking number 3.
This misconception comes from a comment in the 30th Anniversary Encyclopedia, where Ikeda mentions that she based the character Caroline in The Black Countess side story on the negative feelings some fans had toward Rosalie.
Loving each other without freedom...Marie Antoinette and Fersen loved each other, of course they loved each other, but fate was cruel, it was farcical, His love could not be even if it were, it would not be even if it existed, no not only because it was a hidden, clandestine love, but because the weight of obligations was heavy.It was so heavy, so suffocating, the protocol, the etiquette, the role assigned to them from birth, no The answer to everything was no, a sea of negations, where that glimmer of affirmation foundered in the mishap of history, The barrier existed, and yet the love persisted.
The second scene by the fountain takes place nineteen years later. I got very emotional watching these two scenes back-to-back, especially once I realized that they intentionally paralleled one another.
Indeed, when we see Oscar again in the next shot, she has steadied herself. The worst of the storm has passed. She wipes away her tears, resolve returning to her features, and gives the order: âTo the Bastille!â
This is my attempt at imitating oil painting on a digital canvas. This fan art is inspired by the final arc of the fanfic "As long as you're still Breathing" by my friend BĂĄrbara Gallegos, which you can find on FanFiction, Wattpad, and other platforms. The song is called "Je te promets" by Johnny Hallyday.
Just as in life he extended his hand to his beloved, in death, too, the refuge of her soul awaited.
And the moment arrived, perhaps sooner, perhaps later. In that place there was no time, no space, only eternity. She was there, ready to take his hand, he, ready to embrace her forever... Life and death were finally united.
Eternity... What is greater than the union of the earthly and the divine? For them, death was simply the power to shatter all that in life bound them to their fears... In death, forever, like stars in the sky, forming constellations, shining resplendently.