Character duo where one *remembers I don’t like fitting characters into trope boxes* is a completely fleshed out and realised person *remembers treating characters as real people and not story devices written with intent is bad* who is written by the author and *remembers death of the author* uh. And *fumbles and drops my pile of queue cards* ah fuck wait no *the menacing horse* what was that.
is it true that at one point dick saw batman when does with fear toxin? i think he said something about fearing him in a god fearing way but that might’ve been a fic lol
It is indeed true. Dick has a massive fear of failing Bruce.
Batman & Robin Eternal #2
The god-fearing thing is also canon. Can't think of the issue it's from atm.
Do you think we can have your thoughts on Dick and Roy's friendship?
Please and Thank You 😄
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Of course Hummingbird!
This post has a little bit of detail but they sooo need to be explored.
The story begins as...
Off-screen narrator: "The four nations lived together in harmony... Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked."
Dick, Donna, Wally, and Garth: IT WAS ROY!
Roy, smirking: heh. You losers. I made you cool ;p
And it so was like that! Especially with Dick and Roy because Dick was the leader of the team at that time. Dick thought he was having the time of life, everything was going perfectly according to plan, life was beautiful- then Roy happened.
Roy and his chaotic, unfiltered opinions, and his general "rules are suggestions" vibe.
And life was never the same for him again.
Roy and Dick's friendship is so funny because it's like introducing a private-schooled, straight A, class leader, well-behaved academy prep student to a rebel in a black leather jacket, public-school skipping punk but about as 1940s as you can make it.
Wait, okay, so for everyone missing the joke- Roy wasn't part of the original teen titans when they were formed. When they were FIRST formed, it was Dick, Donna, Wally, and Garth.
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 1 page 58)
And they had a couple adventures and life was just swell. It was on one innocuous day that Dick and the rest of the Titan's lives changed forever.
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 2 page 65)
And they solve a case together and they start teaming up more frequently
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 4 page 34)
And so the fab four...became the fab five(some). I don't why the writers felt like writing "fivesome" instead of five. Maybe different sayings back then?
Anyway, all of them were best friends and got along fantastically but Dick and Roy's relationship was so fun to read because it was INFUSED with bits back and forth dialogue.
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 4 page 44)
And they had some good times but remember what I said in the beginning about bad boy rebel meeting a straight A prep kid? This is where it really takes off between them-
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 2 page 81)
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 2 page 98)
AND THIS, THIS IS WHERE THEIR STORY BEGINS
This is the dynamic comics writer choose to continue on which is a competitive back and forth between Dick and Roy. Or rather, a dynamic in which Roy competes with Dick in the form of both a mini-rebellion and yet one of the best partnerships.
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 2 page 100)
Teen Titans: The Silver Age TPB 1 (part 1 page 1)
Haha!
And so this dynamic has continued. They fight, they have fun and they often do both at the same time. They've been doing this since they were kids so as time went on, theis just kept evolving and growing deeper which is the reason why Dick and Roy are so close - it's because they're fighting marks their relationship and it's wholly respectable because it's done entirely out of love and affection and a deep trust in each other.
Of course it's weird to see two grown men fighting like kids - even Kori says it-
Outsiders (2003) Issue #20
Well, yeah. They act exactly like that because that's how they acted since they were 12 years old! Nothing's changed! Honestly we should be the ones getting a best friend like that. Some people get all the luck in the world (Aka Dick and Roy)
They found each and clicked in a way that says "I love you but we're men and I'm gonna show you how men love"
Gosh Dick and Roy are so much fun. The two of them are like two grown men coparenting a group of kids but have no idea how to do it because both of them are too stubborn.
They love the heck out of each other but they also drive each other up a wall and it's freaking funny to watch because here's the thing-
Roy loves Dick. He loves the man like crazy and it bothers the hell out of him when Dick defers to Bruce because Roy idolizes Dick.
Take this moment for example
Arsenal Issue #2
Roy had a fight, he won but he sort of lost and got locked up and Connor comes to save him. Roy's first thoughts?
Arsenal Issue #2
ITS LITERALLY DICK!! LIKE DICK ISN'T EVEN HERE AND ROY IS LOSING HIS MIND OVER DICK!
He just obsesses over Dick sometimes. Not in the weird intense kind of way that Bruce does, but they both just have him on their minds all the time for no freaking reason.
No joke, Roy'll be having a completely normal conversation with someone and then-OUT OF NOWHERE- he'll just name drop Dick! The arsenal comic is one example but another
Green Arrow (2001) Issue #32
Arsenal Issue #4
Dick, Dick, Dick.
But this kind of love is strong. Because even when they've fought, Dick has been with Roy through EVERYTHING. He didn't abandon Roy for one second.
He put Roy in rehab when Ollie left him and he was struggling with drugs, he was there for Lian when roy was a single father, he was there for Roy when Roy asked Dick to come with him to fight Jade-
Action Comics (1938) Issue #613
He was there for Roy when Roy was struggling mentally, he was there for Roy when Lian was taken by a s*x trafficker-
Really, Dick was there with Roy through everything.
And Roy has been there with him all along too
Roy was there when Dick was losing his mind during the Titans, he was there when Donna died and Dick was falling apart, He was there when Dick was settling into Bludhaven-
These two have been through the toughest of hells together. Dick and roy struggle because they love each other but they refuse to let the other suffer alone and they fight because they don't want to bring anyone else into their suffering. But that doesn't mean they'd want anyone else by their side
Outsiders (2003) Issue #11
They have a reallyyy good relationship
The New Teen Titans (1980) Issue #27
And hey no matter how much they fight or what crisis they're in-
would you be interested one day to write your thoughts on dick and his other relationship/dynamic with other characters (like the one you did bruce for that anon)? esp the batfam 😲
ofcourse!
so you've already read about Bruce
And here's the one I wrote about Alfred
Onto Jason
Before I talk about Jason, I want to ask you a hypothetical question. Do you ever have those days where everything you do is going wrong? You woke up late, you burned your breakfast, and then your parents yelled at you for being late and for burning the kitchenware. At school you get a bad grade on a test, you get irritated with people, you go online only to find out stuff that’s really annoying, your club gets delayed, your tired, irritated, hunger and frustrated with everything in your life?
You're now wondering what you should’ve done to be better or why things ended up like this. But despite all that, you still have one, small thing to look forward to. A new episode is coming out for your favorite show, you saved up money to buy the game you want, your going to a new restaurant with your friends, or something special?
That was Dick to Jason.
Jason did not have an easy life and that is putting it lightly. But once he was taken in by Bruce, he got food, clothing, shelter, and an emotionally distant guardian who constantly put him down. It wasn’t until Jason met Dick that he found something to look forward to and that’s the basis behind why they are such great brothers.
That leads me into my first segue: contrary to popular belief, in the comics robin Jason and Dick had a good relationship.
Dick and Jason first met when Dick found out through the newspaper that Batman had gotten a new Robin. No word
So Bruce and Dick have been fueding after Bruce has fired Dick and Dick was staying with the titans when he recieves a call from Alfred
I'm going to make another post about Dick and Alfred because ALFRED LOVES DICK SO MUCH!! He's literally staring at picture of him, Bruce, and little Dick because he misses so, incredibly much.
Anyway Dick comes over and he finds Jason upstairs angrily gaming in his room. He's not on good terms with Bruce because Bruce basically ignores his presence when he's not needed for robin so Dick steps up to be the best big brother ever.
Bruce constantly tries to drive a rift between them by forcing Jason to meet Dick's level of expertise as Robin and punishes him when he is unable to. This drives me nuts. Like, WTF BRUCE? Why would you try to set your own children against each other?? Are you really that petty?
Yes. Yes. He is and this is another reason why Dick ironically became so important to Jason.
Also people need to stop excusing Bruce's behavior and shifting the blame on Dick. Bruce was NOT a good parent to Jason. But Dick was there to be a big brother anyways.
Let me clarify why these two scenes are so important and why this makes them the strongest brothers. Bruce consistently interfered with Jason and Dick's relationship. While most parents would want their kids to get along, Bruce was spited by Dick's absence. The fact that Dick left him behind to start a new life and took in Jason.
Dick's intention was never to be seen as a competitor to Jason. He's always wanted to be a big brother but Bruce for some reason is twisted and horrible. I don't understand why he keeps doing this. There are four comics where Dick's like "Hey, no, buddy you're doing great." And Bruce is just like "No, Jason. You need to do better. Need to be like Dick." ?! WHY BRUCE?
Okay, enough about that.
LOOK AT THEIR SMILES!!! I'M GRINNING SO HARD
So Dick uses Bruce's absence as a prime opportunity to bond with Jason. Actually most times Bruce is gone, Dick jumps to hang out with him.
My favorite interaction is Dick teaching Jason the meaning of Robin.
A key difference that made Jason love Dick as a brother is Dick never punished him for his mistakes:
This is vastly different from Jason's relationship with Bruce when it comes to his mistakes.
Now, I know I'm talking a lot about Jason and Bruce's relationship but the reason is Jason and Dick's relationship is built from Dick being the one person who made Jason happy when he was with Bruce.
Let me reel it back to the past
The first time Dick meets Jason, he sweet talks his way out of Jason's captors killing him for a failed drug bust and berates his reckless behavior. Dick had no idea there was even a new robin until recently so he goes and asks Bruce about it.
Bruce talks about how he met Jason, how he was troubled, and when Dick presses for answers...He says just about worst thing you can say about a boy you took in. Now Dick could've left things there and run off but instead he decides to step up to be the person Jason needed.
Jason's solemn face hurts so much when he says, "Thanks. Bruce is not much of a talker." Like damn, Bruce, stop.
I don't really want to talk more about Jason's robin days and his relationship with Bruce because it really brings down the vibe but let me just skip ahead to Dick giving Jason his number because he knew Bruce is going to play absent parent with him. Even though they don't know each other, Dick was so good to Jason.
Their relationship was also ugly when Jason returned as Red Hood. Yes they fought but Dick didn't fight him because Jason was killing people, necessarily. He fought him because Jason kept seeking him out or they crossed paths unlike Batman and Red Hood who sought each other out to tear into the other.
But Dick and Jason's relationship has improved significantly. Dick is the one Jason is the closest to in the batfamily because he actively calls on Dick to help him on missions, they just chat about what's going on in their lives both in and out of costume, and they help each other out.
But the real difference in their relationship is the amount of trust Dick has in Jason. He never gives up on him and Jason is so thankful and loves that about Dick.
At one point Red Hood goes around randomly killing people. He ends up killed FBI agents undercover, blows up cars, and it's just terrible.
But Dick doesn't turn on him.
And it goes on about how Dick refuses to believe Jason did this, he meets up with Jason, and Dick's basically like "c'mon, hands out. I know you didn't do it but I need to check anyway if you metaphorically pulled the fire alarm."
And Jason's like "yeah, it's all cool bro. I'll even take off my shirt if you want."
A bit of a convoluted analogy, that. But essentially when Jason's not actively going off into the deep end like he did during Under the Red Hood, Hush era, and Brothers in Blood, he and Dick have a good relationship. Dick's a good brother and Jason always admires him.
Fanon is under the misguided impression that Jason hates Dick or that he was a bad brother or something from some fanfic, but even in his darkest times, Jason is caught in the throes of hero worship when it comes to Dick.
Basically, if you want to understand Jason's attitude towards Dick, there are two sides:
1 - Omg Dick is the greatest thing in the world and everyone knows it and I hate that he's so great. (angry version)
2 - Omg Dick is the greatest thing in the world and everyone knows it and they're right. (normal version)
You know the saying like poles repel? In this aspect along with many others especially in their view of Dick, Bruce and Jason are the same.
They place Dick on a pedestal, worship him, and get angry when they can't reach him.
They are the same.
As for the others, I still have to make a post about Tim but here's Damian's -
💬 2 🔁 189 ❤️ 609 · Damian is Dick's son. · Hiii, I don't really know if you made a post about this or not, but can I ask what you think of
Also, to give a more comprehensive view, here's the Robin Jason Todd and Dick Grayson post -
💬 3 🔁 350 ❤️ 845 · But here's what it means in terms of Dick and Jason's relationship: · Was Dick ever mean to Jason when they first met?
Look at Rhodey. Look at that asshole. Look at him suuper casually curling his fist across his mouth. “Can you believe this guy?” His eyes try to say. “Can’t take anything seriously, so disrespectful, and I for one am so over his shenanigans.”
Motherfucker no one is fooled. There’s only one reason people purse their lips and jam they fist all up in their face; You are about fifteen seconds from busting a gut laughing in the middle of a Very Serious Senate Hearing about National Security. The thing you want most in the world at this moment is to high five your best bro and shout “BUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN” at the top of your lungs for the epically beautiful take down you just witnessed. You know it, I know it, Tony sure as FUCK knows it, and I literally have no idea how you are keeping it together right now, goddamn.
Ok so I’ve been thinking about Forever Evil a lot, and especially focusing on this panel
It’s implied that Earth 3’s Dick Grayson was Owlman’s partner, and most likely has died. Now, I’ve been caught up in thinking about how that could have come to be, considering Owlman is not Bruce:
As shown here, Owlman is Thomas, and considering my background knowledge of him, that would make him Thomas Wayne Jr.
Now, we’ve seen Thomas Jr. in the New 52, too:
Thomas Wayne Jr. was raised as a Talon (I think? I’m fuzzy on the details) for the Court of Owls. Emphasis on the owl.
Dick himself was also destined to be a Talon for the Court, had it not been for Bruce.
So in a world with no Bruce…
I believe that the night Dick lost his parents, he was taken to the court and began his training. Thomas Jr. was already a member of the court/a Talon at the time. And he found a way to conquer the court, taking Dick as his sidekick.
He calls himself Owlman as a reference back to the court that trained him. And as a warning (think Diana wearing Mera’s crown in The Flashpoint Paradox).
The Crime Syndicate is a group of conquerors, so it would make sense for Owlman to first conquer the Court, and then with an army of undead owl assassins at his command, he could take Gotham City, and attract the attention of other conquerors to form the syndicate.
Also.
Bruce wears the symbol of the bat because bats frighten him, so he becomes what he fears to frighten criminals. Embracing what he fears is also his way of overcoming that fear.
I believe Thomas takes on the symbol of the owl as his own way of overcoming a fear of bats, but he conquers his fear by taking on the natural predator of a bat; an owl.
Do you ever think that Bruce might have complicated feelings about the Graysons?
Of course he respects them for raising Dick and being kind and loving parents who Dick thinks highly of even almost 15- 20 years after their deaths.
But does he ever feel jealous of them, in particular of John Grayson? Because while Dick is Bruce's son he still not really "Dad" to Dick. To Dick that'll always be John Grayson and he'll always be Bruce.
Does he ever have fears or nightmares of the Graysons berating him for not raising their son right? Or worse nightmares where they come back to life somehow and Dick leaves with them forever and he never loses Dick forever?
Well actually canonically in an issue of Gotham Knights, in a dream Bruce had, he was visited by the spirits of not just John and Mary but also his own parents and even Jason. With said dream, he does indeed try to talk to John about what has happened to Dick under his custody and once he left, on how he grew up into his own man, a good man. Though it can be also Bruce’s fears of failing Dick manifesting in what’s disapproval from John and Mary within this dream which can explain their stand off ish tone with him
It’s certainly plausible that had they still been alive and yet most of the events of Dick’s life post-Performance still transpired and the Graysons did find out about Dick’s role as crime fighter, John could voice his and his wife’s concerns and all Bruce can really do is being silent in stoic fashion, drowning himself in internal guilt whether it’s what John is saying to him or not
Mary and Dick though can read that emotion within Bruce and they snap him out of his thoughts, allowing him to speak on his behalf about everything
Ultimately though, despite their concern as parents and in spite of how dangerous the life of a superhero can be, Mary and John make it perfectly clear to Bruce that what ultimately happened was Dick’s decision and choice at the end and no matter what all three parents, Birth and Adoptive, are there for him in their unique ways. Thats what truly matters.
Besides, Dick even as a kid was relatively mature for his age. Even back then at the Circus, once he perfects his acts, he was more or less a third voice of authority in their quaint household so if he makes a decision that’s not too reckless or he feels confident of pulling it off, they have to trust him on it.
So yeah a lot of emotions one can read from ALL of that, and Dick can feel at as he’s the very center of it all
oh boy this explores a very specific nuance in Bruce's relationship with Dick
Batman: Gotham Knights Issue #16
Something that caught my attention was after Bruce asks "What do you want?" John Grayson responds with "same thing as always--"
This is a recurring nightmare for Bruce. Even though we as the reader are seeing it for the first time, Bruce probably experiences the fear of failing Dick through the anger of John Grayson every. Single. Time.
The ghost of worst fear literally haunts him so much that in his mind conjures his own parents to "protect him" because of how often and how devasted he feels about his feelings toward Dick. In this way his mind created a way to keep himself from breaking down.
I definitely agree with what you said pd65, "Besides, Dick even as a kid was relatively mature for his age. Even back then at the Circus, once he perfects his acts, he was more or less a third voice of authority in their quaint household so if he makes a decision that’s not too reckless or he feels confident of pulling it off, they have to trust him on it." This is 100% true.
Dick's parents undoubtedly trust him to make his own choices because Dick is very mature. He's actually insanely mature and well-adjusted to the point that it's almost a meta skill.
Like how cass has perfected reading opponents' body language to the point that it's a meta skill, Dick's ability to understand and adjust to onerous situations thus enabling him to make rapid, calculated decisions is a meta skill of his own.
John's words when he says "I want to know what the hell you're doing to my son" is a direct reflection of Bruce's true fears.
Batman: Hush Issue #8
His greatest fear is that he stopped Dick from reaching his full potential. He's scared that by taking him in and forcing him into a life of secrecy, he forced Dick away from a life of recognition, fame, and success. Everything Dick would've been and could've achieved to greater heights if he'd stayed with the circus.
Bruce struggles deeply with the feeling he's locked Dick away from the world when Dick could've been so much more than what Bruce gave him. This fear is reflected in his mind conjuring up John Grayson yelling at him over this. Given the number of times and how familiar the exchange is in the panel, it's clear that he's struggled with this for a long time and most definitely continue commiserating this in the future.
It also involves Bruce's need for control over Dick's life vs his acknowledgement that Dick is his own person. The two sides are represented by Bruce's parents vs Dick's where Bruce's defend his actions whereas Dick's condemn. They both represent two sides of himself.
Back to what Confusedhummingbird said, "But does he ever feel jealous of them, in particular of John Grayson? Because while Dick is Bruce's son he still not really "Dad" to Dick. To Dick that'll always be John Grayson and he'll always be Bruce."
YES!! Actually there was another moment in the Superman/Batman comic where Bruce is hit with fear toxin and he gets his dream life before the fear part kicks in because there's no greater way to experience fear than to understand what you have only for it to then be taken away from you-
Batman/Superman (2003) Issue #65
In his perfect world he's married to Selina, his parents are alive, Dick is his son, and everyone's so happy.
But look at how Dick refers to Bruce - "Dad...there's something wrong with your eggs."
HE CALLS HIM DAD!! I don't think Dick has ever called Bruce dad. Except for that one time he was a ghost in Injustice or something and Dick sees Bruce as a father figure at times but he never calls him that. Or at least not this casually.
But in his dream Dick calls him "dad" like he does it every day and in Bruce's perfect world Dick probably does. I do think Bruce would get insanely jealous of John Grayson. Because if Bruce truly cared about Dick's parents and was indifferent about their family relationship then John and Mary Grayson would be sitting with Selina, Dick, and Thomas and Martha Wayne. But they're not. Which means on some level, maybe subconsciously, Bruce is jealous. Or maybe he's aware of it, the guilt is crushing him, and it's too dark of a thought for DC to write explicitly. And here’s another food for thought: in this world, Bruce has erased John and Mary’s existence to make Dick his and Selina’s biological son.
Either way I do believe there's a certain amount of jealousy Bruce feels toward John Grayson because of Dick's love and adoration.
What you said here regarding Bruce's complicated thoughts about the Graysons also gets into how Bruce and Thomas Wayne Jr, his brother, are mirror images of each other. Thomas Wayne Jr was supposed to be Bruce's dark reflection but the way DC mirrored their actions while writing their interactions with Dick - they showed that although Bruce was supposed to be "better" and "good" he's the exact same as his brother in every way.
Justice League (2011) TPB #5
Considering that Thomas Wayne Jr killed Dick's parents to get Dick and Bruce is a mirror of him who's supposedly better but still commits the same faults, it's very reasonable to say that it's highly likely Bruce would feel jealousy however he would feel equally guilty about it whereas Owlman would not.
Most horror films show your teenage years as this powerful time where all those possibilities enable you to fight against a threat from outside. I saw the TV glow does the exact opposite. It shows the emptiness, the endless existence of adolescents. Knowing that something is wrong, the need to change while being absolutely terrified of change. Growing up queer, autistic, depressed, trans and/or with strict parents, realising that you do not belong but a part of you tries to conform so fucking bad. This movie was able to show the horror of surviving instead of living.
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