PinappleWalls

[dank-pro-life-memes]

[noblogurlisavailable]

I really hope one day we look back on abortion like we do slavery and wonder "how was anyone for that"

The pro-choicers fail to see how similiar they are to pro-slavery people

[eternal-echoes]

The more I study about abortion, the more I believe that Christians should prioritize stopping it than any other political issue.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes.

[cheerfullycatholic]

Another pro choice argument I hate; "it's better to abort a baby than make them live in a house where they're unwanted". Killing people based off of the possibility of someone else's opinion of them being negative is one of the most appalling, dystopian, dehumanizing things I've heard

[starless-planet]

It’s literally cartoon villain logic

[glowsticks-and-jesus-deactivate]

Holy crap this is perfect

[noblogurlisavailable]

Everyone has the potential to suffer so we should just mass genocide the entire human race /s

[pinapplewalls]

"No one should die for an opinion," until someone dies for an opinion you disagree with.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Just scroll up to where we literally just had this conversation.

[pinapplewalls]

You said "they become individuals with human rights when they are born."

So, like I just asked, what makes them undeserving of rights before birth? You said yourself they are human. Why do they only get human rights after birth? Why is it okay to murder preborn babies if you see them as an inconvenience to you?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Not if they're an inconvenience to ME, just if the person pregnant with them doesn't want to carry that pregnancy to term.

What makes a fetus, embryo, or zygote "undeserving of rights before birth" is that prior to birth they are not individuals, and it's unreasonable to assert coercive control over a pregnant individual and what they do with their body.

Look, you believe an embryo is a person, and I don't. This isn't something we're going to change eachothers' minds on.

But statistics show that when abortions are illegal, just as many abortions happen, they just happen under much more dangerous circumstances. If you want to discourage abortion, distribute free birth control and advocate for comprehensive sex ed; those are the things that actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions.

[pinapplewalls]

But it's not her body. The baby has their own body, they just are dependent on their mother. That doesn't mean they aren't a separate individual human. I'm sorry, but a mother doesn't get the right to murder her child in the womb.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Did you want to respond to the part about how abortion rates can actually be reduced?

[pinapplewalls]

Sure.

Sex ed and all that stuff is fine and there are ways you can do sex with a lower possibility of a baby, but that's not what im arguing for.

I'm fighting for babies in the womb who can't be heard. That stuff is good, and I encourage it (although there are some problems with birth control, but that's for another day), but right now, I'm fighting for the unborn babies.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yeah, it's NOT what you're arguing for. You're just saying over and over again that abortion is murder and saying that it shouldn't be allowed won't have any impact on abortion rates. You're not talking at all about the things that COULD help with that. And now you're saying you have a problem with birth control too?

If abortion is literally murder, why do you care more about hassling people who choose it than about doing things that will actually prevent it from being needed? Preventing actual abortions? How could your "problems with birth control" possibly matter more than preventing what you think is literal murder?

[pinapplewalls]

I never said it wouldn't have any impact on abortion rates, not once. I never meant to disregard the things that can help lower abortion rates. Those things are good salutations, but there is nothing wrong with debating about abortion either. That's all I meant.

I do try to prevent abortions. I talk to mom's going into clinics. And with birth control, it is not as big as an issue as abortion. That's actually the reason I didn't expand on it and said, "That's for another day" because you're exactly right, birth control isn't as a big of a problem as murdering babies. My problems with birth control does not in any way matter more than babies being murdered.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Just scroll up to where we literally just had this conversation.

[pinapplewalls]

You said "they become individuals with human rights when they are born."

So, like I just asked, what makes them undeserving of rights before birth? You said yourself they are human. Why do they only get human rights after birth? Why is it okay to murder preborn babies if you see them as an inconvenience to you?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Not if they're an inconvenience to ME, just if the person pregnant with them doesn't want to carry that pregnancy to term.

What makes a fetus, embryo, or zygote "undeserving of rights before birth" is that prior to birth they are not individuals, and it's unreasonable to assert coercive control over a pregnant individual and what they do with their body.

Look, you believe an embryo is a person, and I don't. This isn't something we're going to change eachothers' minds on.

But statistics show that when abortions are illegal, just as many abortions happen, they just happen under much more dangerous circumstances. If you want to discourage abortion, distribute free birth control and advocate for comprehensive sex ed; those are the things that actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions.

[pinapplewalls]

But it's not her body. The baby has their own body, they just are dependent on their mother. That doesn't mean they aren't a separate individual human. I'm sorry, but a mother doesn't get the right to murder her child in the womb.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Did you want to respond to the part about how abortion rates can actually be reduced?

[katjohnadams]

@pinapplewalls Fun thought exercise!

A fertility clinic is on fire, oh no! There is a freezer full of 1500 embryos, and a crib with one (1) baby in it, but you only have time to save one - which do you grab?

[pinapplewalls]

Reminds me of this meme:

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Just scroll up to where we literally just had this conversation.

[pinapplewalls]

You said "they become individuals with human rights when they are born."

So, like I just asked, what makes them undeserving of rights before birth? You said yourself they are human. Why do they only get human rights after birth? Why is it okay to murder preborn babies if you see them as an inconvenience to you?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Not if they're an inconvenience to ME, just if the person pregnant with them doesn't want to carry that pregnancy to term.

What makes a fetus, embryo, or zygote "undeserving of rights before birth" is that prior to birth they are not individuals, and it's unreasonable to assert coercive control over a pregnant individual and what they do with their body.

Look, you believe an embryo is a person, and I don't. This isn't something we're going to change eachothers' minds on.

But statistics show that when abortions are illegal, just as many abortions happen, they just happen under much more dangerous circumstances. If you want to discourage abortion, distribute free birth control and advocate for comprehensive sex ed; those are the things that actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions.

[pinapplewalls]

But it's not her body. The baby has their own body, they just are dependent on their mother. That doesn't mean they aren't a separate individual human. I'm sorry, but a mother doesn't get the right to murder her child in the womb.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Did you want to respond to the part about how abortion rates can actually be reduced?

[pinapplewalls]

Sure.

Sex ed and all that stuff is fine and there are ways you can do sex with a lower possibility of a baby, but that's not what im arguing for.

I'm fighting for babies in the womb who can't be heard. That stuff is good, and I encourage it (although there are some problems with birth control, but that's for another day), but right now, I'm fighting for the unborn babies.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Just scroll up to where we literally just had this conversation.

[pinapplewalls]

You said "they become individuals with human rights when they are born."

So, like I just asked, what makes them undeserving of rights before birth? You said yourself they are human. Why do they only get human rights after birth? Why is it okay to murder preborn babies if you see them as an inconvenience to you?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Not if they're an inconvenience to ME, just if the person pregnant with them doesn't want to carry that pregnancy to term.

What makes a fetus, embryo, or zygote "undeserving of rights before birth" is that prior to birth they are not individuals, and it's unreasonable to assert coercive control over a pregnant individual and what they do with their body.

Look, you believe an embryo is a person, and I don't. This isn't something we're going to change eachothers' minds on.

But statistics show that when abortions are illegal, just as many abortions happen, they just happen under much more dangerous circumstances. If you want to discourage abortion, distribute free birth control and advocate for comprehensive sex ed; those are the things that actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions.

[pinapplewalls]

But it's not her body. The baby has their own body, they just are dependent on their mother. That doesn't mean they aren't a separate individual human. I'm sorry, but a mother doesn't get the right to murder her child in the womb.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Just scroll up to where we literally just had this conversation.

[pinapplewalls]

You said "they become individuals with human rights when they are born."

So, like I just asked, what makes them undeserving of rights before birth? You said yourself they are human. Why do they only get human rights after birth? Why is it okay to murder preborn babies if you see them as an inconvenience to you?

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

You're just reiterating what I said. Fetuses are not the same as individual humans and the rights of a pregnant person take precedence.

[pinapplewalls]

Tell me what makes them not the same.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Yes, fetuses are meaningfully different from humans who are not fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

So, being a human being isn't enough to have human rights. As you said, you have to be born to have the right of not being murdered.

So what changes when the human is born verses when the human is in the womb? What makes them undeserving of rights before birth?

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Fetuses are fetuses; they're not analogous to anything else. They are human, but they are not individuals with personal rights the way that a pregnant person is. They become individuals with human rights when they are born.

I'd love to know if your arguments apply specifically to fetuses or to embryos and zygotes as well.

[pinapplewalls]

So, not all human beings can have personal human rights? Only the ones that are born are allowed the right to not be killed?

And what changes from a fetus when they are born verses when they aren't?

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[moniquill]

Is this hypothetical toddler INSIDE OF HER BODY?

Because if so, I absolutely support her right to have it surgically extracted! Something has clearly gone WILDLY wrong with this pregnancy!

Also, for fun, look up the short film 'Her Only Living Son' Written and directed by Karyn Kusama (because this wild-ass scenario reminded me on that horror flick)

[pinapplewalls]

"Sergectly extracted" is a funny use of words for a baby being torn apart or suffocated and starved.

(Also, no, I meant a toddler out of the womb just to clarify)

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

Interesting to me that you asked what makes them different, and when I explained that they are different, you said the difference doesn't matter. Can I suggest that your belief that a fetus is in a meaningful way a distinct human is maybe based on a spiritual understanding of "souls" or something analogous? Rather than some objective fact that you can prove by comparing a fetus to a 2 year old, a comparison that really doesn't make sense? I ask because I think it will make the conversation a lot easier, if we can identify clearly where you're coming from. Or I could keep pointing out ways that 2 year olds differ from fetuses.

[pinapplewalls]

No, my belief that fetuses are human does not stem from souls or any of that stuff.

If you dont think they are human beings, what do you think they are? And if they aren't human, how do they magically become human?

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus

[sapphoandvanzetti]

The difference between a 2 year old child and a fetus is that a 2 year old child is a distinct individual, their care can be transferred to another person, and they will not be impacted by something their parent chooses to do to their own body, none of which is true of a fetus. Leave a 2 year old child alone in a room for a few hours and leave a fetus alone in a room for a few hours and I'm sure the distinction will become very clear to you. If you have any trouble distinguishing between any two other dissimilar things, just let me know.

[pinapplewalls]

Yes, a toddler can survive longer in a room than a human fetus since the fetus is less developed and can't survive without their mother. That doesn't mean its okay to murder them or make them any less of a human being deserving rights.

[noblogurlisavailable]

The right to refuse use of your body does not justify putting someone else in a position in which they can't survive without your body, and then killing them.

[moniquill]

You know that becoming pregnant is not a voluntary function, right? The embryo/fetus puts itself there. Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

My uterus has barbed wire and a 'trespassers will be shot on sight' sign (a copper IUD); any embryo/fetus that attempts to implant into my uterine lining should expect to be forcibly removed.

[sapphoandvanzetti]

True! And also, you have the right to an abortion even if you DECIDE to get pregnant, on purpose, and then change your mind. Maybe someone is in a relationship, has a great job and housing, and then loses all of that, and feels like they're not prepared to raise a baby on their own while unemployed and homeless? They too have the right to yeet the feet (us).

Maybe someone joyfully got pregnant excited to be a parent, then got a devasting health diagnosis and realized they won't live to see their child grow up, and they don't want to do that to themselves or a future child? I'm so sorry that happened, and I respect your decision. OR MAYBE someone was like hell yeah let's get pregnant, then a couple weeks later was like wait what was I thinking, hell no, for absolutely no reason they can define? Also a totally valid reason not to have a baby.

[pinapplewalls]

So if a mother has a 2 year old baby girl and she realizes she's not financially stable for a child, she should pay someone to rip the baby apart?

And that's perfectly normal and should be a "right?"

[sapphoandvanzetti]

What a fun false equivalency!

Things that are different from each other are different from each other, hope that helps.

[pinapplewalls]

What's the difference between an 2 year old and an fetus? They're both human, the only difference is how developed they are and their dependency on a mother. Murdering a 2 year old child is the same as murdering a fetus