third city fifth moon

artist & writer here to be a nerd and make connections / SEE MY ABOUT

[re-l]

hi i am re-l / ede. read my about for the long version.

i love trigun maximum and discussing canon and being annoying. i'm warning you... i'm, like, really unapologetically annoying.

i am the #1 chronica fan and postcanon trimax enjoyer.

my art-only blog is @tometen

your last warning i am very annoying

i have huge stinky onions you should just follow the art blog

[re-l]

does watching industrial machinery move and do its job make anybody else emotional and start to tear up. i am watching an angel that eats rubber and turn it into glass ampules and it has an eye outside its body that a council of high beings judges how u interact with it. it has 5 hearts and its veins are made of silicone and it has 15 arms. you can collect its blood to heal the sick. its guts are transparent and you talk to it in italian through a decades old interface

yes i was on the filling machine for my entire shift yesterday yes it was boring af

[nefertvrivivi]

[alspezz]

big big trigun dump !!

[re-l]

ive had geraniums on my dumbass fursoña for more than fifteen years and stampgaze makes me feel like a poser. did they rly have to take one meaningful scene and cram it down the viewers throat 😭 😭 AAA the embarrassment

[atanerrum]

hey what's up you guys yes. been a while since I've posted a vashwood dump for @tometen's and my au. under the cut you may find a few sketches that can be considered a bit more risqué

I was so tempted to put a stupid meme or a rickroll gif here but no. you can totally trust me. im so honest. im absolutely not planning to do it next time

[tometen]

st. chronica slaying the dragon

[re-l]

im so tired i miss trigun and drawing and doing anything at all.

today the vial filling machine broke for five hours so i had to stand aseptically while my coworker troubleshooted cuz im technically just there to verify his paperwork. pls understand i am standing in Surgeon Hands Up position while not being allowed to stretch or fidget or sway. i am dressed in full space suit. i am hot n sweaty as hell.

my job is to meditate while being uncomfortable. for hours. cuz srsly all i do is wait 💀 I WISH I COULD WAIT AND DRAW OR SOMETHING..... dont work in pharmaceuticals theres no fun allowed

[carrotssss]

[re-l]

ppl only ever write chronica to be a headcanon expositor for vash's plant medical problems. same with luida. plssss im begging u... just a crumb of interiority

[re-l]

and this is why my au is about chronica giving vash medical problems instead. a gift that she gave him, if u will. support womens wrongs

[re-l]

update i read a doujinshi where ludia had a sperm bank

[re-l]

why does everyone want postcanon vash to be a tradwife homesteader. or a gardener. i am here to ask the real questions

[re-l]

its not just a trans bioessentialism thing either. i see it in cis m/f. ive seen it twice in vashmeryl since making this post my mind is boggled with this desire to make vash tend flowers or some shit

[silkdusk]

VASHWOOD

[infriga]

Something I've always thought was interesting is how Vash knew about final runs and the black hair phenomenon before Knives did.

On the ark Vash says he's seen the black hair on dead plants before, many times, and understood what it meant. What's interesting about this is that while Knives is always depicted as knowing more about his and Vash's own bodies and powers, Vash ironically seems to know more about their sisters. Arguably the only things Vash is shown knowing about and being experienced with in regards to Plants is related to his sisters, such as him knowing not only how to calm them down and sync with them, but knowing exactly how long he can do it for as shown on the sandsteamer, implying he's done that multiple times in the past. Even the way he talks about his sister on the sand steamer comes across as familiar. The translated line about babysitting in that scene comes across as a bit harsh in English, but in Japanese if you're aware of the fact that the plant is his sibling the line comes across as more playful and teasing in Japanese because it's the kind of way he might speak about a family member or close friend. What he said and the way he said it would certainly be rude and condescending IF she was a stranger, but not as much if she's someone he's familiar with, and we know she definitely isn't what he'd consider a stranger. So it serves to hint at his familiarity with plants before their actual relationship is revealed.

(Personally I wouldn't have gone with what the DH translation went with in that scene, which was a line that went unchanged in the OH version iirc, because I feel like it doesn't properly capture that sense of "seems kind of rude until you realize he's saying it teasingly about a sibling, then it seems more playful" and instead it comes across as just rude or even mean regardless of the relationship he has with her. Also Nightow loves to use meaningful repetition, which often gets lost in translation, and that can mean just as much when there is repetition as when there isn't. It's noteworthy that the term Knives uses when referring to Wolfwood as Vash's babysitter in a different scene is not the same as the term Vash uses for keeping an eye on his sister on the sandsteamer, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a deliberate difference. The one Vash uses for his sister is 面倒が見る, which means to take care of someone in a general sense. It's a phrase you might see used in reference to taking care of a child, but it's also one you'd see used for taking care of a distressed/sick/injured person, or elderly parents, or someone under your command, a pet, etc. Basically it's not a particularly belittling term to use for someone in this context. Whereas the term Knives uses is "子守" which is the more direct parallel to the English term "babysitter", similar to "nanny", and is used in reference to young children in particular. So Knives uses a term that is more directly infantilizing and belittling, while Vash doesn't, and this difference in how they refer to their own siblings is a great contrast between their characters and intentions that gets lost if the English word "babysit/babysitter" is used as a translation in both scenes imo. Also the idea of Vash playfully referring to his sisters as "お嬢ちゃん" aka ojouchan is actually kinda cute imo, but "little girl" doesn't come across the same way in English. I think the way Wolfwood uses "little lady" for Meryl in the Stampede dub is closer in both tone and meaning. But that's neither here nor there).

That scene plus Vash already knowing about the final run and black hair stuff, as well as the memory we see in the finale of Vash sitting with one of his sisters and casually hanging out with her while drinking and presumably chatting, indicates that Vash not only visited his sisters, but did so quite often. And not only to help them or because he needed something from them, but also to just spend time with them as well. It's too bad that Nightow didn't show him doing it on screen more often, because I feel like some fans don't notice the more subtle references and hints at Vash's relationship with his sisters. I occasionally see people who think he doesn't visit them or even think he avoids them when all signs point to the opposite.

After Knives learns about the black hair phenomenon himself, that's around the time when the dynamic between the twins regarding Vash's powers finally flips, where Vash becomes the one solely in control of them and Knives is trying and failing to stop him from using them. It feels like it ties in well thematically with the reveal of something plant related that Vash knew more about than Knives did. A big aspect of Knives' character is his hypocrisy and how it's woven into his actions and motivations, and this is another faucet of that. His self righteous anger about something he doesn't actually seem to know much about. Unlike Knives, Vash has been there himself and experienced the same desperation and suffering as those he seeks to help. Knives acts like Vash doesn't know or care about their struggle and is just ignorant or naive, when by all accounts Vash would understand what they're going through better than anyone else and has known more about it for longer than Knives has. Unlike with Vash, it's never implied that Knives spent much time with their sisters until he started fusing with them, unless you count him being incubated inside one to recover from July, which resulted in him ripping his way out of her in a way that looked pretty painful, so not exactly a nice visit from her perspective I suspect. At the very least he hadn't spent enough time with any of them to learn about final runs or black hair over the course of 150 years, despite that stuff being treated as pretty commonplace by the human who explains the process. And yeah Conrad has been trying to keep that info from Knives, but he wouldn't have been able to stop Knives from seeing it happen at some point directly if they'd visited dependant plants on a regular basis. Visiting one of his sisters is, in fact, exactly how Knives does end up finding out.

It also makes Knives's explosive reaction to finding out about it and subsequent escalation in aggression make extra sense, not only has he been made aware of a very visceral time limit on his ability to enact his grand plans of human extermination, he's actually finally seen the depths of his sisters' suffering with his own eyes this time. Before that it may have been something he recognized in an abstract general sense, but not something he had actually seen much of in person. That would give him quite the emotional kick in the ass. Tesla's experience was something he had a more tangible grasp of from seeing it personally, and it informs a lot of his behaviour throughout the series, but that was more a result of her being an independent. The plight of dependent Plants would still be easy for him to care about and be enraged about and use as another reason for his stance towards humans, but it would also easier to compartmentalize if it was something he was aware of in a less intimate sense. Which is probably why he spent more time up until then focusing more on learning about his own body and abilities, gathering his human knife collection, trying to use what he'd learned to gain power over Vash, trying to sever Vash's ties with humanity, and trying to get Vash to come back to him by making his life with humans a living hell. After getting a more up front and personal view of what his sisters were going through, that's when he starts finally getting his plans to eradicate humans fully rolling, with or without Vash. On top of that he also has to reckon with the fact that Vash had started exhibiting black hair symptoms, which makes it extra real and personal in that sense as well. It's a harsh reminder that they're not invincible and their powers aren't limitless. And whether Knives wants to admit it to himself or not, HE is the one who forced Vash into starting his final run. I don't think it's by chance that Knives doesn't completely lose his shit and kill Conrad until AFTER it's confirmed that Vash's hair has started turning black. And of course, as a result of that loss of control, that's when he gets his own black streak. Karma is a bitch.

Anyways just another long-ass meta post about my obsession with Vash and his relationship with Knives and the plants, and the contrasts between the twins as characters. 🥴 I'm as normal about their parallels and perpendiculars as always.

[en-stama]

Hi! I do like your analysis of Vash’s relationship with his sisters — particularly the insight about him having casually spent time with them and the nuance of his “babysitting the selfish little girl” line. I also agree with what you have to say about Knives’ turning point post-black hair realization. But….. please bear with me because I’m also #supernormal about the twins and would like to inject some ambiguity into what’s implied about Knives and his sisters by (lightheartedly) arguing a few points.

So, I would like to challenge the idea that Knives spent very little time with his sisters; I especially don’t believe he spent less time with them compared with Vash. In fact, I think that Knives was very observant to their plight & likely visited with them frequently. Additionally, I don’t believe there’s evidence to prove that Vash did know everything about the Last Run practice and black run phenomenon.

Firstly, I would like to note that we have seen a Last Run only once, and they may not be especially common. While the narrator’s dialogue box does suggest that the “surge of energy” is common at plants’ end of life, it doesn’t indicate whether it’s a widespread practice to force the plant to initiate it. It’s also implied to be uncommon knowledge, given that that the person who casually describes it is, specifically, a facility worker, rather than a passer-by, and both Elendira and Knives are unknowledgeable of it.

Moreover, we know that plant engineers are highly valued professionals, based on Conrad’s success, and the desperation of April City for someone to fix their plant systems implies they provide somewhat rare and expensive services. Therefore, the majority of low-income towns most likely don’t even have highly skilled people that could initiate a Last Run; I believe it’s something limited to larger cities in specific facilities.

Given the progression of technology and need-for-survival circumstances on the planet, this also may be a relatively new practice, and not something that say, the immediate survivors of the Big Fall would’ve known to do.

Then, while Knives is definitely unknowledgeable about the implications of the black hair phenomenon — we can infer he’s seen and visited with many of his sisters, especially near death. He states: (OH, Trimax 8 Chapter 1) “150 years… have passed. Thanks to you, during that time, many of our sisters have been oppressed and murdered… Humans do nothing but suck the life out of you. I have seen them throw our spent corpses away like garbage.” This is shown over panels of an alive and dead plant, so he’s seemingly remembering these moments. If all dead plants do have black hair, then Knives must have observed that, at least — just not made the logical leap to “This is the cause of death.”

Plus, Knives’ actions right before witnessing the Last Run were to visit his sister whom he can sense is in pain, and ask Conrad to heal her. I honestly didn’t assume that this was an isolated incident. And when he’s shown asking his sisters if they’ll help him pre-merging, he’s shown to be surrounded by 10+ plant bulbs, and they all consent to helping him. It’s ambiguous whether this is at the same facility.

Onto Vash, his response to Knives’ statement is (OH, Trimax 8 Chapter 1) “Believe me, Knives, I have seen the dead plants. All of them had the black hair. They weren't the bodies of plants who had lived their natural lifespan. They were the bodies of plants who had been abused and pushed past their limits.” Honestly, since this is to refute Knives’ claim that Vash hadn’t seen any plant suffering, I don’t interpret this to mean Vash had observed more, just that he did have a lot of personal experience with it.

Vash doesn’t indicate that he does know what a Last Run is, or even that he had realized the exact significance of the black hair — just that he observed it, and now, since Knives has already told him that the black hair is the “blackness of decay,” he knows that it’s relevant to bring up in this conversation. It is possible that he did know more about it than Knives, but I don’t believe that’s an explicit implication in the text.

Ultimately, we really don’t see enough of Knives’ day-to-day proceedings to know very much about his relationships with their sisters, especially since the majority of his screen time is post-merge. It is notable that he was only just learning about the forced Last Run practice, but we at least know that that’s not common knowledge, and we can be fairly sure he’s still observed many of his sick, dying, and dead sisters otherwise.

……… Yay! Honestly, I think that you can also reasonably read that Knives was less observant than he should have been, as you put in your post, but I also think if he’s too ignorant about his sisters, then his crusade completely falls apart for me as a reader, so I like to take a more sympathetic reading. The one thing we know he’s absolutely right about is that plant exploitation is a massive issue, and we know that his sisters supported him in their rebellion on the Ark. So, I’d like to believe he paid attention to them and spent time with them pre-merge, and I think this is fairly well supported, or at least quite possible.

[infriga]

This got a bit long so bear with me lol.

I don't personally think that Knives's line in the scene you mentioned indicates that he's seen any black haired plants before the one we see him witness in the manga.

His line in that scene in Japanese is

"150年.… かかりすぎだ… おまえのお陰で足踏みのすえ更に多くの同胞が食い潰された搾るだけ搾り取られて最後はゴミ同然に殺され続けた仲間たちの姿"

If I were to translate it with more of the original meaning in tact I'd put it as:

"150 years... It has been too long... Because of you, and the time you spent stagnating/standing still, more and more of our brethren have been consumed, every last drop squeezed out of them. And in the end they were killed as if they were nothing more than garbage."

I think OH and DH use sight/seeing here because of the term "sugata" which can mean a variety of things depending on context such as form, figure, state, image, presence, role, character, etc. But usually if it was something specific that he actually saw with his own eyes and is describing he would say 姿を見た (sugata wo mita) or something along those lines. In this sense what he says comes across as a more general description of their state when they're killed rather than him recounting a specific event or events directly (though I'm sure he's thinking about the one he did see himself while describing it, I just think that informs his description of what the plants have been going through this entire time rather than it being what he is describing specifically).

Interestingly while OH translates the next line as "you don't get it Vash", in Japanese it's not explicitly clear if it's Knives talking or Vash. No one's name is stated, it just says "...それをおまえは知らない" or "that is something you don't know/don't know about". Dark horse even originally translated it as Vash saying "you have no idea".

If I were to translate it as Knives saying it, I'd say it comes across more as him saying that Vash doesn't care about what's been happening, or maybe that Vash is unaware, in which case Vash answers by expressing how he does know/care. If I were to translate it as Vash saying it, then Dark horse's translation as "you have no idea" fits well enough. And in that case he'd be following up by expressing his own experiences. Now it could go other way, if it was just the dialogue alone I'd say it's probably Knives saying it, but it being placed in a panel over Vash makes it less clear. Nightow's allergy to tails on speech bubbles isn't helping. So if I were to try to keep the neutrality, I'd simply translate it as "... you don't know anything." or somewhere along those lines, that way it could come from either of them and retain the same meaning regardless of who says it. But ultimately it doesn't change much about what's being said, just who is accusing who of being ignorant on the topic. I just think it's a funny bit of translation shenaniganery and wanted to mention it lol.

Vash's following reply is "亡くなったプラントは何度も見た「黒髮」だったよ寿命でなくなっていっただけじゃないんだな... 「能力」を限界まで使った証か... だけど... この砂の惑星で人間が生きていくのにほかにどんな方法があるんだろうプラントに...僕達に頼るしか方法はない..."

Which I would translate to "I have seen dead plants with black hair countless times. It's not the result of them reaching the end of their lifespan, it's a sign of their power being used to their limit... But... How else would humans be able to survive on this desert planet? They have no choice but to rely on plants... On our kind..."

And then it continues to him telling Knives that it's because of the great fall that they're all in this predicament, etc etc. Unlike Knives, Vash DOES use 見る here so he is talking specifically about something he directly saw over and over again. Knives' previous dialogue is more ambiguous and generalized. He has seen one dead plant in that state by then, but what he said doesn't particularly imply that it's something he's seen multiple times or seen before that point in the way that Vash's dialogue does.

To me this conversation comes across as Knives newly outraged over what he's recently found out that has been going on for 150 years while Vash sat around twiddling his thumbs (in Knives's opinion), whereas Vash has seen it many times before and thought about it in depth, even if he doesn't like the conclusion he's had to come to due to their circumstances (which are a result of Knives' actions). I think the subsequent lines where Vash talks about how only those who have actually experienced the suffering in question can talk about it and explain it to others, and say what needs to be said to stop it (paraphrased since I ran out of time to type out all the Japanese lol) seems to me like Vash is basically calling Knives out about how he doesn't get to tell Vash that he doesn't care and isn't doing anything and doesn't know what's happening when Vash is the one who has actually been in the trenches so to speak, seeing and experiencing this stuff and trying to bridge the gap between plants and humans. I think it also ties in well with Vash's "the reason you suck speech" in their final confrontation where he talks about how Knives loves to talk shit and jump to conclusions without ever bothering to try and learn about or understand where other people are coming from or what they're going through. Like with the village that he slaughtered in the scene where he cuts Vash's arm off. Knives takes refuge in ignorance while constantly talking down to Vash and accusing Vash of being the ignorant one. That's the impression I get from those scenes at least.

I'm not saying I don't think Knives ever visited his sisters, but I don't think he spent time with them or got to know them in the way Vash did, and I don't think he checked in on them consistently like Vash must have to have seen so many of the dead ones from final runs. I think Knives might have come swooping in whenever he sensed one in distress in his area, but I really don't think he had seen any of the black hair stuff before that point. He comes across as too shaken by it, like witnessing that happen was a wake-up call for him. If he had seen any dead ones with black hair in the past then he must not have thought about it or investigated the cause at the time, otherwise it wouldn't have blindsided him like that, but I don't think he would have dismissed it like that. Even if he hadn't gotten more involved before, he does still care about his own kind and would want to know what was going on with them of he noticed something off. So to me it makes more sense if he had never seen that stuff before and that's why he didn't think to investigate it before then.

I think it also fits the way he ramps things up so much so quickly, and why he acts so repentant when fusing with a plant for the first time. I think part of his anger, which he projects onto Vash, comes from guilt for not knowing about it sooner, for not being more involved because he was preoccupied with his own personal grievances towards humans. Another big aspect of his character that I think drives a lot of his actions is his isolation. Not only is he isolated from humanity but he's isolated from his own kind as well in a lot of ways. Even in the giant fusion he keeps himself separate, his sisters try to reach out to him in his dreams but he brushes them off. And the one person who was closest to him and who could understand him best had, in his eyes, chosen Humanity over him. Heck, the way his powers are presented visually is even different from others of his kind. I think in some ways he's lonely to a degree that even Vash has rarely if ever been, which only exacerbates his inability to cope with his fear and rage and feelings of betrayal.

I ran out of time before having to go to work, so I wasn't able to look through the Japanese version of the scene with the plant technician. But if you would like to talk about this sort of thing more then I'd be willing to go back to go over it when I get a chance if you're interested in that. But for now that's some of my thoughts on why I came to the conclusion in my original post.

[yuquiitas]

wolfwood wednesday or how i like to call it. sunday

[re-l]

im losin my touch... my mental prowess... i must reread trigun

[re-l]

nooooo. no no no idc nooo

[ilynpilled]

a character being a perpetrator does not negate their victimhood and neither does their victimhood negate being a perpetrator. u can accept and reckon w both dimensions in ur analysis

[ilynpilled]

there is nothing morally purifying about suffering or victimhood, it is not something that inculcates “goodness.”

one’s character has no impact on whether they were/are a victim or not, victim status is not something that is only afforded to the palatable.

it also does not = absolution.

[ilynpilled]

ppl cant handle this in cartoons made for teenagers lets not get ahead of ourselves