Yes, I am *that* red_xera from LJ. Multi-Fandom. Latest inductee to the Tony Stark Defense Squad. I have *options* about Star Wars. MCU Steve Rogers can fuck right off too.
Honestly the fact the Bruce is so fucking hypocritical. Idk if this is just fanon or also canon, but,
Telling Jason that being a vigilante isn't a game, while also treating it like a game himself. Like, he says he (as one of his reasons for not killing the joker) that killing the joker would be playing into what he wants, how he shouldn't let joker win the game, but like ???
Who fucking cares if Joker wins? He'd no longer be able to harm anyone else, he'd no longer create thousands of victims.
And if you say "Oh but Bruce would never be able to come back from it!" Or smth like that, stfu. I don't care if it's Bruce who does it or anyone else.
Bruce refuses to let anyone else kill the Joker, and at this point, he's not only letting people become victims, but he's choosing to make them victims.
And then he has the audacity to say they can't be Judge, jury, and executioner, when that's exactly what he's doing? He's judging criminals to be worth rehabilitation and therefore, are essentially more important than the fucking victims??? He somewhat chooses who is guilty or not guilty, he literally made it so that the Joker couldn't be held accountable for the death of Jason Todd (by removing any evidence that would convict the Joker), he beats up goons and criminals before handing them to the GCPD yes, but he's also essentially killed someone intentionally (KGBeast), he fully did that of his own free will.
And the audacity to push his morals onto others.
Like no, it's not enough to understand his morals and accept that he has his own set of morals. Instead, he has to push them on to others, condemning them when they don't follow it and idk if just... If DC wanted to make Batman like this, and least have him hold accountability, have him be faced with the consequences of his actions, show that his actions have caused X, y, and z.
honest to god we've got to start naming the elderly as a vulnerable group & calling their disabilities, disabilities. we sugarcoat and distance these things by only calling them "elderly," "old & frail," etc. most of them are disabled.
too many people completely separate disability from themselves in their mind. it's something that happens to other people. other sad people i don't want to think about. are they really even people, it's too much to bear thinking about that happening to a person... those background characters over there. it would never be me, i can't cope with thinking about that possibility.
this mass denialism of the fragility of the human body (YOUR human body) has created a whole category separate from the disabled - the "elderly." since anyone can join it if they live long enough.. no they can't be disabled. that's scary, and worse it's political. so they are just "old." so what they lost their hearing, their mobility, their heart function? that's just how it goes for old people. as if that's not a person as real as you. as if you wouldn't be devastated if that happened to you today (and it can btw). as if you won't be when it's your turn to be old, and disabled.
simultaneously the disabled are dehumanized as not people, and the elderly are dehumanized as not disabled. so the illusion of disability as separate can be upheld.
My grandparents lived to 98 and 103. Read that again— 98 and 103. My grandmother died 5 months ago and was born in 1923.
She was extremely wealthy. My grandfather left her millions. She paid about 13,000 a month for her care.
And her nurses abused her. She could do nothing. She could not speak for herself, feed herself, clothe herself, and the humiliation they made her endure was disgusting. When she tried to express discomfort, they gave her drugs to “keep her calm” (keep their shift easy). We fought like HELL to hold that fucking place accountable. The only reason we were aware is because we hired a private nurse on her behalf, too.
The elderly are a massive, extremely vulnerable, and disabled group. You cannot leave them out of your advocacy, you cannot leave them out of the conversation. “They’re loud, they smell, they’re opinionated, they’re rude, they make me uncomfortable”. I don’t care. I don’t care! They need your advocacy too! I want you to think, if my grandmother— who was in the best retirement home she could afford, with a personally hired third-party nurse to step in where the other carers failed, had such abhorrent care… what about everyone else? What about all the elderly who don’t have a support system?
it exists to divide the working class. All labour is skilled labour. Yes including that one. Yes, including that one too.
Do you know what's unskilled labour? Owning capital. There's no labour involved, thus requires no skill. And you can tell because people can be born into owning capital.
please please please. learn to use the built-in tumblr content filtering systems. they work based on tags and/or words in the post itself. xkit rewritten has a feature to hide filtered posts entirely instead of just covering them with a "this post contains filtered content" label. if something is annoying you then you just don't have to see it, you don't have to let it keep bugging you until you spontaneously become the joker. please god.
I hate that the "x reader" or "x Y/N" style of fanfic has become sooooo popular, partially because it's just not for me and partially because they clog general non-fic related tags and those authors seem allergic to the "read more" function on this website, but ALSO because I believe that you should have to go through the trouble of creating an absolutely batshit self-insert character, with a backstory that makes no sense and a name that doesn't really gel with the aesthetics of the universe. Legolas and Aragorn should be in a love triangle with Kylie, the angsty sixteen year old half-human half-elf and inexplicable tenth member of the Fellowship. Do the WORK. If everyone was doing "Y/N" nonsense back in the day, there would be no Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way, or probably Bella Swan. These are important women. They deserve to be named, confusingly and with no regard for the fictional world they inhabit.
When the topic becomes about racism between children you very quickly realise children of colour aren't seen as children but as some other thing that should just take the abuse and then forgive the Real White Children because they didn't know better. They don't understand it but children of colour can and will very early in their youth.
I think the absolute worst term to come out of this age of pseudo-scientific puritanical bullshit has got to be “dopamine addiction”. “You’re addicted to feeling good and having fun” bitch yeah???? What else are we on this earth to do??
Getting up on my gay little soapbox again to remind everyone that prev is correct. Dopamine is not a chemical that is only released when you are overstimulated by Media Consumption or whatever. You can get a dopamine hit from sitting calmly in the dark and watching the rain. It is a pleasure chemical, not a Capitalism Chemical. Stop conflating “pleasure” with “being constantly busy and unable to tear yourself away from scrolling social media”. I hate social media and I love being alone with my thoughts. If you’re unable to experience joy in everyday life you probably need to be on antidepressants. That’s not me trying to be dismissive I’m speaking from experience.
i don't think i'll ever understand or agree with the whole “batman needs a robin” statement that tim drake and dc was trying to sell. like i dont know how he could have known all about the whole situation that jason died, then saw that batman became depressed and aggressive and he just came up with that idea that “oh that’s because he doesn’t have a robin! that’s too bad, he needs one.” his son died because of a psychopath and he was there holding his dead body of course he’s gonna be depressed he’s grieving for fuck sake. “batman needs a robin!” no i think that guy needs therapy and not putting another children in danger letting them go out on the street and fight crimes in traffic light colors costume.
it’s just that when i tried to put that whole situation in phrase and it’s just “i figured out your secret identity, i knew what happened with jason, then i saw batman became more aggressive and violent and i immediately knew that was because of batman was without a robin and batman needs a robin.” what? no, it’s not that?? how did he came up with that conclusion from that?? how did he get from “batman became too aggressive because of robin’s death/ since robin died” to “batman needs another robin” like like dick said the robin career should have end with jason.
If you've been here long enough you've probably seen or heard of this moment, which is super hilarious and iconic. It's mostly discussed in reference to Dick and Cass' relationship. However, in my opinion Cass throwing Dick out a window had very little to do with her opinion of him, or even of Barbara; it has more to do with her understanding of romance and love. I briefly touched on this in my gender/sexuality post, but I'm going to explain more in depth my interpretation of how Dick functions in Batgirl (2000) as a whole. (This moment is very open to interpretation though, this is just my opinion!). So let's try to answer Dick's question: what was that all about?
Love, Language, and DickBabs
While Puckett's run is notable for not having Cass date anyone, romantic love does play a role in Cass' early understanding of the world. It's the impetus that spurs her to write: in issue 2, she sees a wife read a letter from her deceased husband, and her reaction affects Cass so strongly she immediately starts trying to write. (She also kisses the husband on the cheek earlier, which may or may not be a crush). Romance, and the ability to communicate your love, is a fundamental part of Cass' desire to learn language.
So we have Cass, who has experienced neither love nor language, living with Babs, who's in a relationship with Dick. This telephone conversation in #4 (the issue where a metahuman changes Cass' brain into understanding language) again links romance to communication. Dick and Babs are talking on the phone, unable to see each other but understanding each other perfectly; Cass and Babs, on the other hand, live together and can't understand each other at all.
"She can't talk, so it's not all that different [to living alone]." Babs is telling an eavesdropping Cass that her inability to speak prevents her from love and connection - a love and connection symbolised by one of the first romantic relationships Cass is consistently around, Dick and Barbara.
Dick as an Ideal
There's a debate whether Cass likes Dick or not because half the time they're friendly, and half the time she's punching him or throwing him out windows. This disparity makes sense if you consider that Cass strongly associates DickBabs with communication, understanding, love - very idealised notions - but she does not associate Dick as a person with them. Her interactions with Dick (sans Babs) are cute and normal - Batgirl #29 and Nightwing #81 feature some very adorable Dick-Cass moments, with no real tension whatsoever.
It's only when Cass sees Dick in a romantic light (as in associated with Babs) that she makes him into a symbol.
Cass often tries to copy Babs, thinking it's the 'correct' thing to do - in DC First: Batgirl/Joker, she goes after Joker because that's what Barbara did; later in Horrocks' run she'll wear Barbara's outfit. In a way, Cass' affairs with Tai'Darshan and Kon - as much as I do think Tai'Darshan was genuine attraction - is another way to 'copy' Barbara. In #42, Cass stares at a picture of Dick and Babs while asking if Babs likes boys. Obviously Cass knows the answer is yes, but see what she asks next, and how Barbara responds:
She shifts from 'like' to 'love', and Babs responds that she 'care[s]' about him. For Cass, whose arc in Horrocks' run is about parsing out the nuances of attraction, understanding the difference between like, love, and care is incredibly difficult. She struggles to separate familial from romantic (Bruce in #50) or romantic from platonic (Kon, and in somewhat the reverse way Steph). In this conversation, Cass comes to associate Dick with like, love, and care - DickBabs becomes not just a symbol of romantic love, but of any connection whatsoever.
The Old Costume
I've discussed elsewhere that Cass wearing Babs' old costume in #45 is a representation of her desire to be 'girly', and how she associates girlhood with someone other than herself, discarding her own costume for Babs'. But putting on a costume is not the only prerequisite for being a 'girl'. In Babs' speech to Cass, she emphasises being sexually attractive to men, with her final comment being about this "particular look Dick used to give [her]". For Cass, visual language is incredibly important; putting on Babs' costume is not about being or feeling like a girl, but about being perceived as one. Dick is symbolic of the perceiver: the one who can essentially 'grant' women their femininity.
But Cass is disgusted when Tim calls her hot, which adds to her confusion - why should Dick being attracted to Babs make Babs happy, but Tim (who's not a sibling at this time) perceiving her like that grosses her out? Cass' inability to feel good - to feel 'feminine' - through the male gaze is another sign, to her, of her failure to be a woman.
Which finally brings us to issue 46...
That Ableist Kon Comment
Cass finds out Dick breaks Babs' heart and then starts hallucinating on a drug. One of the things she hallucinates is Kon saying "who wants to date a cripple? Ain't that right, Nightwing?" and Nightwing responding "not me--at least, not anymore."
For the first time, we get to the heart of why DickBabs mattered to Cass: it was an example of a disabled person in a loving, romantic relationship. It goes back to that phone call in #4, where Babs implies that Cass is hard to care about because she can't speak. The Kon comment suggests Cass has carried that with her all this time, trying to find proof that she can be loved, no matter her disability. DickBabs showed her it could be done - the break-up shows her now that it can't be done.
Dick's hallucination mocks her disability: "look at her--she can't even read!" Attributing this mockery to Dick (whose real-life counterpart, unlike the other hallucinations, has never said anything remotely like this) shows that this 'Dick-as-ideal' is intrinsically tied to Cass' self-worth.
Honestly this whole post stemmed from me thinking about this one panel. There is no real reason, from Cass' view of Dick as a person, for her to think he's brave and noble and kind (more so than anyone else). But it's in the DickBabs context - that Dick seemed to love, wholeheartedly, a disabled woman - that makes Cass think this way. And now that DickBabs is broken up, it shows that she, too, is rotten to the core; that someone like her cannot be loved.
And so when Dick shows up, she throws him out the window.
Conclusion
In this moment, Cass isn't just reacting to Dick breaking up with Barbara, she's reacting to what it means to her. If Dick can't stay with Barbara, then that means Cass, as another disabled woman, is also unable to be loved. This all leads up to #50, which features another Cass punch to Dick's face, but more importantly is when Bruce and Cass reconcile through Cass' first language. It's a confirmation that though her verbal skills may not be fully developed, she still can communicate, and she can love and be loved.
I don't think a lot of the ideas I touched on here are fully developed, or conclude cleanly. For example, how does Cass' 'failure' to be a woman relate to her inability to be loved? Is she able to have a stable romantic relationship? There are lots more questions, but the role Dick specifically plays in Cass' understanding of romance is probably not going to develop further. I just think it's interesting how Horrocks uses the Dick-Babs relationship to explore Cass' identity.
Bruce’s parents died when he was eight. Dicks parents died when he was eight. Bruce sees a little boy crying and thinks of himself.
It is only natural.
But Bruce’s parents die and Gotham give him a manor. Dick gets taken away from the only home he ever knew.
Gotham takes the Wayne and Batman names and elevates them, makes them cornerstones of the city. Gotham takes Dicks names away. Robin is taken as it had never belonged to him. Gotham redefines the Grayson name to a tool to be used.
Bruce falls into a narrative that priorities his grief as Dick's becomes muddled. As Dick's place is defined by a set of keys to a home he will never own, Bruce's has his in a W on a skyscraper.
To Bruce they are the same. He took Dick in because they have the same story. They channel the same grief into their mantles. But there are dimensions that spread far beyond that first fall that Bruce lets himself be blind to.
Sometimes I think about how Bruce needs to parallel Dicks story to his own to understand him, but he can never understand the inherent differences between him and Dick. In some ways Gotham takes from Dick in the same dimensions it gives to Bruce
The common assumption that the events of Under the Hood are "just" to get Bruce's attention has done irreparable damage to fandom's critical thinking skills.
No, Jason did not decapitate those lieutenants to get Bruce's attention. He DID blow up an empty building to mess with Bruce (Bruce evacuated the building first, but it WAS empty when it blew) and staged his own fake-death to traumatize him. (again)
I need you to understand that people's motives can be multifaceted and he said exactly what his motives were in very plain speech if you bother to actually read it.
"Who does Jason think he is to say who lives or dies?"
Who does BATMAN think he is to make those calls?
When he interfered with Joker's lawfully acquired sentence for execution (Joker: Devil's advocate)?
When he healed/saved Joker from dying in a Lazarus Pit and then restored the status quo by tossing him in the prison where Joker pointed out how many times Bruce had saved his life at that point, thus enabling his crimes (Legends of the Dark Knight #145)?
When he resuscitated Joker after Nightwing beat him to death (Joker: Last Laugh)?
When he prevented Jason from killing Joker? When he prevented Clownhunter/Bao Pham from killing Joker?
When he started going around interfering with the Lazarus Pits/possible locations for Lazarus Pits and causes Ra's al Ghul's death by preventing him access to them?
When he deliberately left KGBeast to die after he shot Dick?
What about all the maiming or maim-worthy bullshit that he and the other bats do to common criminals you think those medical debts aren't going to murder them just as surely if not slowly?
These aren't even the only examples of Bruce doing this and anyone is free to add more I just don't feel like going all the way through Bruce's list.
"Dick would have crashed out/killed himself if Bruce hadn't!"
So Bruce gets to decide that Dick has more of a right to live than the countless people that would be saved by letting Joker die? How is that not being an arbiter of who lives or dies?
Multiple people have tried to kill Joker and Bruce stopped them. Multiple people have argued that Bruce should have let him die or someone kill him. Bruce choosing to let someone live with the understanding that he will kill more people (because it's not a question of if, but when) is not playing god any less than Jason is when he personally does the killing, it just absolves him of direct culpability.
So, if Jason has some kind of arguable god complex about deciding who lives or dies? Well, frankly, some things you don't need to be related by blood to inherit.
A.K.A. apparently "defending" things I don't even like that much is becoming a trend with me. Now, I'm going to say outright: Pit Rage is not, in canon, the same as it's treated in fandom. This is... generally known by now I think. Still, I think it's worth it to take a look at what there is there so people aren't just saying "it's not real" without acknowledging the full breadth of it. I'm not expecting everyone to obsessively cover every nuance every time they post, I'm intimately familiar with the concept of generalization as hyperbole.
Before we get into it, I'd like to discuss the origins of the Pit a little. I'm going to make a brief mention of the somewhat-inconsistent, possibly mutually incompatible, and absolutely fucking stupid origins of the pit per "Prime Earth," and then discuss the vastly superior, thematically-relevant explanation that held true throughout Post Crisis. (Pre-crisis is a little bit muddier.)
In Prime, we have some slightly conflicting origins that may not be full on mutually-exclusive but feel like kind of a pain in the ass to reconcile together. The most recent addition being the one from Batman v3 #138: Their powers come from Dionysium* from the freaky magic meteors that made Vandal Savage immortal. Then also there was the one where in the 16th century Ji Ling sought a way to bring back his son Nehzha and eventually a magician helped him create an elixir of life from his blood and tears and other unknown ingredients that became the basis for the Lazarus Pits (Batman/Superman World's Finest 2022 #2-3 & Batman Vs Robin #2). And then there's Lobdell & Tynion's "Well of Sins" and all the other pits are just runoff from it. (RHATO 2011 #7 & 22)
*As a moderately relevant aside, I am NOT counting "Lazarus Resin" in this particular post. I can barely fit all the images I put in here as it is.
It was WAY more consistent back on New Earth and, in my personal opinion, made a hell of a lot more sense for Ra's to be using them in the first place. The most extensive exploration of the Pits' origin comes from Batman: Birth of the Demon (1992), which I have a bunch of cuts from. Ra's al Ghul (who did not go by that name at the time, but also whatever his original name was is never revealed) is a physician tasked with saving the Salib's son. All hope seems lost, but when he goes into the desert to meditate on what to do, he's struck with a vision.
Now, Ra's is fundamentally a man of science. He is not particularly fond of mysticism and has little faith in religion:
The "science" that created the Lazarus Pit however is something of pseudoscience - utilizing locations where ley lines cross and then a pit is dug and filled with various poisons, acids, and other toxic waste. Then, somehow the energy from the earth then converts it into something that heals:
And this is pretty consistent:
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #145 (This issue printed 2001)
Birds of Prey (1999) #34
Azrael (1995) #6
Robin (1993) #91
Batman (1940) #243 & 335
Now while it's more vague here, they do explicitly mention that it's some kind of chemical bath. In #335 Ra's mentions that he "discovered the pit and learned how to take it's life-giving liquids with [him] when [he] traveled." Granted, that's pre-crisis, so it's a bit wibbly on how canon we consider it.
Regardless, this is the superior origin. It's thematically appropriate for Ra's history and motivations. Now, of course, we get to the part where I discuss the matter int he title of the post: Side effects. Namely, we're discussing everyone's most controversial topic: Pit Madness.
Let's start with Birth of the Demon, well, mostly. Over the course of this oneshot, there are (arguably) five different instances of someone being submerged in the pit. So let's start with what's the first instance of someone (who stopped breathing immediately prior to him being placed into the pit):
He is temporarily crazed, and starts attacking everyone. In particular he fixates on the Ra's wife (who the Prince openly lusts after prior to all this), and then he is snapped out of it at roughly when his father steps in.
Later, after some absolutely horrific cruelty on the part of the Salib and his son, especially given his wife's murder, Ra's gets his vengeance. He arranges for the prince to be exposed to the same thing that nearly killed him the first time, then allows them to get a hold of him a second time to repeat his "cure"... except he pointedly has them build it on the wrong spot, so instead it kills him. Then kills him and lays siege to the city/kingdom and effectively genocides his own people by ensuring none of their history or language would survive. Of course, he wasn't the only actual survivor as his uncle and loyal friend who helped him with all of this (despite some hesitation) did end up actually writing it down and it's from those texts that Bruce learns this history and then goes to where he fights Ra's at the new Pit he had Talia dig.
Before that, however, we have Ra's first dip in the same pit:
Ra's was not dead when he went into the pit, though he was dying of the same thing that killed the prince before. Similarly to the first man, he notably has a special interest in attacking this woman who'd been making moon eyes at him for a while. He does find her attractive but he is still mourning his wife an the horrors the Salib put him through.
Later still in this same issue, Bruce gets a dip in the Pit himself, though whether or not he was affected by the rage is difficult to say, given, well:
We don't know how long Bruce was buried, and it's very possible he could have snapped out of it in his system on his way back up to the surface. There's also not really anyone for him to target since it appears Talia already left, and Bruce is filled with "savage joy" about Ra's probable death. One could argue that that's related to the Pit madness.
I don't remember which issue it is but there's also one from later that Ra's was shown having a brief fit of madness, and a number of incidents people have already pointed out (or at least claimed) where no madness occurred at all.... Except. Let's see, who is it that is usually said to not have Pit Madness? Cass... Dinah... Kate?
Batgirl #73 (2000)
Well, here's Shiva actively coaching Cass out of her Pit Madness. It's brief, yes, but very notably outright stated to be something Cass is experiencing, that her unique training via Shiva is helping her through. And even then, it's only after Shiva points it out that forces her to acknowledge and deal with the problem.
Birds of Prey #34-35 (1999)
Dinah very much has Pit Madness and tries to kill them. It's a much "cooler" Pit Madness, yes, complete with haughty villain-speech and throwing around insults in a way that's particularly unusual given most other incidents involve mostly inarticulate rage, but maybe we can argue that this is an alternative interaction due to her being the only explicit meta on this list.
We don't see how long Dinah was affected, as Babs manages to knock her out and then we see her what is ostensibly a week later, totally fine (though Babs still seems concerned about possible lingering effects):
(This is also from #35)
Barbara, of course, doesn't have as extensive of knowledge as Ra's would, so we can take some of her misgivings with a grain of salt.
Azrael #6 (1995)
It's interesting that Ra's says here that the madness lasts for 24 hours, though in the previous incidents they were both snapped out of it sooner.
"But, you know, that means that Pit Madness only lasts a short ti-" Bzzt.
Detective Comics #438 (1937)
Ubu was, presumably, not injured or near death prior to his exposure to the Pit's explosion, or maybe he was. Either way, he continues to be significantly affected for days after. Who knows how long it would have continued, because he died, lmao. His exposure is a particularly unique incident in that the Pit chemicals lingered excessively and even somewhat re-shaped his body. This is, not really explained tbh.
Notably, this comic was published in 1974, so like, some twenty years prior to the other two. You can argue that it's also wibbly like the previous Pre-Crisis comics, but we have something else to suggest that lengthier episode are possible... or even Delayed.
(Drum roll please)
Before we get to the Delayed stuff, let's talk Notable Exceptions to the rule. As in, people who don't display pit Madness right after coming out. First of all, let's talk Jason himself. As mentioned above, he doesn't come out of the pit with any signs of this typical symptom:
Grr, arg. Batman Annual #25
Lost days does not show us his immediate aftermath just Talia dragging him away. In either case, he's fairly composed of all his mental faculties, but other than briefly shouting when he comes out of the Pit, he doesn't display any symptoms, which probably wasn't intentional but does set us up pretty well for what we DO have in Lost Days.
Secondly, Talia herself:
Batman (1940) #335
This is Pre-Crisis, so my disclaimers apply here as well. It is stated that they douse Talia for a much shorter time than Ra's himself. And Ra's doesn't usually come up swinging from the Pits most of the time, but his eyes are notably drawn like he's Affected. Next, Kate:
Batman & Robin (2003) #9
Kate's is particularly notable to me because literally one issue prior to it they put Clone Bruce in there, and he very much comes out Pit Mad (though he had been dead for a while, yes). So why doesn't she? Is it because it was used right before her? Generally, most of the Pits are one-use-only. The first pit Ra's made, the one that Jason gets dunked into (at the same time as Ra's goes in himself), and this are pretty notable for this actually. So it could be argued that the milder effects might have come from more than one use. However, I have another theory.
Kate died, specifically, by intentionally overdosing herself on Morphine. And this is interesting to me because of this incident here:
Robin (1993) #91
Morphine's no anti-psychotic, and while arguably the pit should drain the morphine from her system in the healing process... it might only drain enough to be survivable, or perhaps up your tolerance or something. Maybe it's a combination of the two factors. I am FASCINATED by the implications that pit madness can be treated with anti-psychotics though.
From here, I'll move on to Delayed Pit Madness. Them apparently not coming out of the Pit affected by it, but displaying symptoms at a later time.
@glitter-stained makes a really good point over on this post about Winick implying the idea of "Delayed Pit Madness" in Lost Days in order to potentially excuse the characterization that he doesn't like that came out of BftC. And here are the exact panels mentioning that:
Red Hood: Lost Days #2 (2010)
As I recall, Talia never actually mentions the idea of pit madness to Jason at any point, just kind of wonders and suspects to herself/others about it. If Jason knows about pit madness, then he learned about it from Bruce like Tim did.
Additionally, here's another post with a fascinating breakdown of the factors that could lead to a more sustained Pit Madness using some real-world concepts - notably the second option of the Pit having to reconstruct portions of Jason's neural pathways have some really interesting implications... and interestingly aren't much of a factor of concern in the other incidents above.
The Salib's son and Ra's had taken ill from a foreign bacteria. Bruce was both incredibly ill from weeks of neglecting himself to hunt Ra's, was burned severely during his fight with Ra's, and was stabbed in the chest with a shovel.
Cass was stabbed in the chest.
Dinah was strangled, her back broken, punctured lung.
Brian Bryan falls from a window and suffers fractured vertebrae and ribs, but Ra's does not mention head trauma as a factor - what killed the man was cardiac arrest. And even if he had, it would not have been a TBI as severe as we know Jason suffered given his condition when he comes back.
Talia was shot.
Kate OD'd.
King Snake wasn't even dying he just wanted to heal his eyes.
Ubu it's hard to say. They've got him in full body bandages so it could very well be a factor.
But you know, maybe this isn't enough evidence of it as a theoretical possibility. I'd like to present one more, hypothetical piece of evidence. and for this we're going to go back to the beginning, by which I mean Birth of the Demon. Scroll back up, look at the eyes of the Salib's son not in the first page after emerging but the two after that are still green and there's redness around his eyes. This pattern somewhat continues with Ra's in his dip, though he gets a hold of himself much faster.
And much, much later. It's been centuries, he and his uncle and loyal companion have lived very long lives and even changed names to adapt to the new world, and then Ra's discovered that his friend has disobeyed him, has recorded history of their people in the language he wanted destroyed. And he gets very, very angry.
Look at that last panel. You could argue it's lighting, or, we can acknowledge that the red in his eyes so starkly as that have almost exclusively been used to associate with Pit Madness in this comic. Even as he burned his homeland or even immediately prior to this when he says that he was displeased by his friend's disobedience, his eyes don't take that coloration and the artist largely relies on the shapes and the rest of the expression to convey that anger. And, at this point, it's been a long while since Ra's last took a dip. (Though he does go back right after to heal the burns.)
So... what does this mean? Well, generally Pit Rage is only within 24 hours of submersion to the Lazarus Pits, but could extend beyond that in extreme circumstances, and a significant enough trigger could, maybe, cause it to reemerge again. So, honestly, writers just have a shorthand excuse to do whatever they want with it or try to retroactively claim bullshit, lol. Which is pretty much what the Pit is used for in the first place.
Is it an excuse for all of Jason's crimes? No, of course not. Most of those were very calculated and intentional - only* BftC has sufficiently, uh, gestures above. That kind of behavior that would really seem to apply to that.
*Glitter mentioned something about Task Force Z and I don't recall what exactly that would have been referring to. Also, might be Lazarus Resin related and I did explicitly choose not to cover that. <- it was a misunderstanding but I'm still leaving it open that it's possible for other things to apply.
Sighs, with all of that said, a dishonorable mention of Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #145's little "gotcha" where the Lazarus Pit made Joker temporarily """""""Sane"""""""""
I don't personally ascribe to the idea that he's as clinical as he pretends to be because a) I don't think he'd genuinely be capable of everything he does if that was true, & b) I'm kind of sick of the rampant psychophobia and it really doesn't help.
Ugh.
In conclusion: please someone write a fic where Cass has fanon Pit Madness I would love to see her struggle with it that would be so fascinatingly dynamic. It's Shiva's fault she's like that, it's Shiva's training that helps her control it. It further proves she's a horrible murderer, it's something that she knows is not from her and she is told she's not responsible for those urges because it alters her mind against her will. She's not sure if she believes that. She wants to.
Belatedly I realized that I forgot to include Riddler, because the panels were on my phone but, to be fair, we don't actually see his Pit Madness & it's all discussed in retrospect as something that helped him realize Batman’s secret identity:
This is the post about Damian Wayne being whitewashed that will probably go ignored because it dives deeper than pointing at a Damian Wayne and urging DC to draw him darker. I don’t particularly care about likes but I feel like we should emphasize whitewashing in detail and not just pointing at Damian and being like “he should be darker than this!”
What is whitewashing?
Whitewashing is deeper than the color of someones skin, it boils down to the way they act, are perceived and is portayed over all. If you take away a character’s cultural roots in any way then you are whitewashing them.
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Let’s start with The Brave & The Bold. No one talks about this but this is a perfect example of whitewashing. In the Brave & The Bold writers took Damian Wayne and just emphasized the Wayne in his name. Damian’s culture did not fit their narrative so they entirely erased it.
Bruce Wayne married Selina Kyle and after had a baby, no, that baby was not Helena. It was Damian. Damian Wayne and only Wayne. He had no connection to Talia whatsoever. They erased Talia and the Al Ghuls entirely from Damian’s story.
This is an example of how his whitewashing goes deeper than skin. He’s now entirely white, drawn as white and lives as a white kid. They changed the way he acted, was perceived and portrayed.
Then because that’s not enough. His identity was a very blatant copy of Tim Drake. He takes Tim Drake’s suit, he takes Tim Drake’s backstory and he takes Tim Drake’s iconic catchphrases, its extremely jarring. This is another example of whitewashing, taking away his personality and to fit a white character.
The Tim Drake curse.
Another example of whitewashing would be the continuous attempt to make Damian Wayne more relatable by watering down his personality and making him reflect Tim Drake. Tim Drake was Robin for so long and so loved that it has a lasting effect on other characters as well. As long as Damian wears that “R” that was celebrated at its highest when the character wearing it was fair skinned then I doubt he’ll ever escape this. This is whitewashing because erasing his personality is also erasing his roots on the most basic level. In his stories, he becomes an average highschool student, pursues romances, indulges in feel good family fun, gets bullied, and wears suits and changes his hair once again to reflect Tim Drake. I don’t even have to mention how light he is.
The Three Horsemen of The Pale-skinned Apocalypse.
On the left we have a portrayel of Damian Wayne with light skin and blue eyes. Not only that but in this comic, they didn’t even get his culture right… the writer must had thought he was japanese… he’s not… he’s part Arab and Chinese but genetically dominant and visually POC.
In the middle we have a Damian Wayne called “Ian.” It’s just Ian. This is an example of whitewashing because if you didn’t know; Talia named Damian after the word “Damianos” which means ‘to tame’. To erase his cultural roots in his name then you are whitewashing him. And Jonathan Kent, a visually and socially white character regardless of the immigrant-kryptonian allegory, did not get this treatment. Those characters seem to never get this treatment as we know.
On the right, we have Damian’s newest installation, the one DC twisted their comically large spoon into their Witch’s caucasian cauldron and used their magic to zap Damian with that Tim Drake curse. Damian’s eyes are green, not grey or blue and his hair is thicker than that, not straight and thin. Nor does he act like this. This is an example of whitewashing. You are changing how he acts, is perceived and portayed.
How to avoid this?
It’s simple actually, just exercise the way he was originally portayed which sadly has never been wrote exactly right since he was first introduced but as you can see:
This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne flaunts his culture in the way he dresses and acts. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne speaks his native languages when it’s convenient to him. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne is connected to Talia and grew up in the league of Assassins. This Damian Al Ghul-Wayne made his own Robin suit.
He has brown skin, he has soft green eyes, and look at his monolids, his hair is also thick and his face is dinstinctly shaped as well. The easiest way is just to portay Damian as he is; An Arab-Chinese kid.
For example, this artist made a conscious decision to study the way Damian Wayne looks before drawing him. Even adding distinct features like a nose bump which we never get to really see from him.
Why does whitewashing happen?
The idea that a person of colors’ features and culture are not appealing to the audience and needs to be altered to fit the norm in order to be palatable.
In fandom.
If you portray Selina Kyle as Damian’s mother then you are whitewashing him. If you change the way he acts in fanfiction because you don’t like it then you are whitewashing him. If you draw Damian Wayne lighter than what he’s supposed to be than you are whitewashing him. If you demonize the Al Ghuls and put the batboys in place of them then you are whitewashing him. If you change the meaning of Robin for him then you are whitewashing him (this does not include reverse robin AU’s for example) and if you make him do any action that’d align him with what an American kid is supposed to be doing then you are whitewashing him. But let’s say you make a AU where the point is his personality is different or his upbringing is different, this is not whitewashing, this is having fun. To have an initial subconscious mental bias when it comes to a POC character is different, entirely different.
And about other races… Damian Wayne is one of the few Arab-chinese portrayels in Media, please do not alter this, even if its to make him any other variant of POC. Damian Wayne is Damian Wayne and if that’s not interesting enough for you then use a different character that is that race. <- do not fight me on this.
We as a collective should focus on portaying Damian Wayne. It’s deeper than skin. It’s crazy because its really not that complex…
In conclusion, be mindful of why you were invited to this Damian Wayne function…
I find it funny how many people love primehood and makes jokes about primes 4th wall awareness but people don’t focus enough on the fact that Jason is super meta as well.
Like there is a panel where Jason talks about turning 53 (which would be his real world age given his 80s continuity). Like there are so many small bizarre instances of Jason alluding to his real world characterization and impacts but like done in almost the same way I would expect a seer or conduit might.
Bro basically does a soliloquy to the audience like in a Shakespeare play. Only he doesn’t know there is an audience.
I think it would be super funny if Jason said some meta shit unprompted and it throws Prime off.
Jason: me and Bruce don’t work. Like him admitting he’s wrong would break the universe and that can’t happen.
Prime (squinting his eyes): yeah.. something like that.
Or
Jason: I had a dream that none of this was real. That no matter what I do I don’t have any control. I’m not the one writing my own story. I’m just a character for others amusement.
Prime (doing a double take): the $@&!
Jason: It’s probably nothing.
Prime: it’s definitely something!
And possibly
Prime: that’s what you get for crawling out of your coffin.
Jason: I’m not sure if that’s what happened. It’s all so muddled anymore. Who’s to say what actually brought me back.
Prime (Turing to the reader) you seeing this chat?
And of course
Jason: I feel like people are always hoping my down fall. Like if you put my life in the peoples hands the would vote to kill me off.
Primehood is the power couple in the most literal way ever. Jason is capable and Prime is strong, if they really want to achieve something and puts their mind into it, they surely would achieve it.
The people around them keep making contingency plans for them in case they turn evil because they already see Jason and Prime as nothing good.
But Jason, despite having the power of Prime in his hands just being his unbothered self and Prime is just enjoying himself around Jason.
Still, both of them are little shits and sometimes they act like they're gonna do something big just to mess around with people surveiling them.
It's always "stop harming yourself or we'll have to lock you up!!!" and never "what do you need to change to want to harm yourself less and how can we help you make some of these changes?" and that's why we're not getting anywhere
I know a lot of people don’t read for Ra’s Al Ghul and understand because it is hard to find good characterization and solos for him period but if you need a reference here’s the complexity of Ra’s Al Ghul’s character, especially if you wish to write him.
Let’s extablish this: Ra’s Al Ghul is evil. He is a villian but not purposeless, he has motivations, ideations, as to why he does what he does. The Demon’s Head is a philosophy after all.
In the comic I’m going to talk about frequently, Ra’s aims to topple empires built upon the betterment of humans but to the destruction of animal health, habitation, ecosystem, and people who are a threat to the Earth itself, he then makes sure the next person who takes this Empire aims to either shut it down or improve it in a way that no longer allows said empire benefit from malicious means.
Batman: One Bad Day explains Ra’s Al Ghuls youth and loss of his home and family at the face of a siege, with nowhere to go and no protection, he was left defenseless until he was protected by the wolves in the wilderness which led him to believe that the forest itself protected him. This is why I have a hard time hating Ra’s personally, I could never hate someone who’s gone through every catastrophic event of our ancestory, I imagine he’s victim to a lot of historical tragedy and any attempts to find happiness in a pure, authentic way probably was snatched from him. He’s likely seen the worst of society and I couldn’t hate him for that.
It’s important to note that Ra’s Al Ghul can love within centuries of his life, then he can be abusive.
He believes all life to be just as worthy and precious as another. He believes all life is worth being saved though after all the hell that humans has put the Earth and it’s children through he has grown bitter and angry. He’s experienced the pit madness over and over, it’s likely simply a part of who he is.
Over spending hundreds of years alive, so much grief and death every single year for centries, he’s become traumatized. Now he attempts to save humanity from itself because of one bad day.
Ra’s Al Ghul has even said that Jason Todd’s unnecessary death caused him to grieve, so much so that he sought Jason’s body out and brought him back to life.
Here is Ra’s Al Ghul breaking down and tears for having to put his pet down so he’s very much not emotionless.
Here is Damian arguing with his father over whether Ra’s Al Ghul’s ideations are correct or not. Damian’s feelings toward Ra’s are likely extremely complicated but I am sure there is more bad than good but that doesn’t mean it’s all bad.
Here is Ra’s Al Ghul telling Damian that he is proud of him and has a deep respect for him. Also note that in Birth of the Demon, Ra’s Al Ghul has said that he prefers Bruce and him to be allies instead of enemies and even considers Bruce his son.
Ra’s still wishes he could be allies with Bruce and fantasizes about fighting alongside him to this day.
Ra’s threatens Damian’s life but immediately after admits that he was just bluffing, and he would not have hurt Damian.
When Ra’s mortally wounds Bruce, he lets Damian have a moment with his father given that he’s the one who fatally wounded Bruce in the first place.
Ra’s says explicitly that he was doing what he is doing for Damian’s future. He states again that he does not believe one life is more important than the other, even humans.
I think it's very important that what Ra's does is extremely traumatizing and would not make sense to a child. He functions in a way where he thinks he is right and what he is doing comes from a place of love and compassion, including the things he does to Damian.
Whether you agree with his philosophy or not is up to you, but he truly believes he's doing what he is doing for the bettering and benefit of his family.
In conclusion, he is somewhat human, he's somewhat of a madman, he believes human life is valuable but as valuable as a healthy bird soaring through the sky, his actions come from a place of love though sometimes (often) he may be abusive. He would not kill a man without reason, he would not kill an animal without reason, he says above that he thinks killing to survive is different from killing for pleasure, he believes he's doing the same as killing to survive.
And finally, he has no interest in anyone or anything that does not fullfill his role as the demon’s head.
