"In what country is there a place for people like me?"

AN INDEPENDENT MULTI - MUSE ROLEPLAYING BLOG for Andrew - and Anatoli Ryan,  and Jack Jolene from the Bioshock franchise. OC / AU - friendly,  open to crossovers,  multi - ship and multi - verse. Please,  check my pinned post before interacting.

[ryanindustrymen]

I’m in the effort of moving the boys over to @ryanindustrxs​!

[ryanindustrymen]

I got an anon that came off as kind of accusatory and the gist of it was that I never really let things go / know when to stop.  I’m pretty sure it was a response to the entire Sander - debacle,  even though Deco explicitly asked people not to sent me stuff.

I’m not going to be answering it,  but I do want to explain my actions,  because I think that there’s some general miscommunication that often happens when people interact with me.

As soon as people tell me to step away,  I will.  (As you can see,  I did.)

And I generally only respond the people that reply to my initial response to a post if they either;  used information I feel is incorrect or questioned me / asked me questions.

This includes questioning statements that call for an explanation like  ‘I don’t understand why you say / do / think XYZ.’  or even statements of antagonism;  because I genuinely feel like engaging in informative debate with people is always better than simply arguing them.

[ryanindustrymen]

@deco-devolution:

It does align with canon though. For better or worse, the things we know about Sander Cohen are this unsettling. He’s a human trafficker (Burial At Sea) he regularly kills and plasters human corpses (BioShock) he is implied to have forced the disciples into unwarranted criminal and/or sexual situations thru in game dialogue (BioShock) had his competition murdered (BioShock) and of course forces Jack to hunt down his followers (BioShock) as a last art piece. All of this happens without the aforementioned content of the books which as far as I’m concerned, fits with his trend of violent and abusive behavior. Interestingly enough, there’s no implication he’s legit interested in the boy (though I can see your thought process) as in the game Cohen has a strange obsession with human suffering as art. And you’re right, Sander IS written as the classic homophobic “gay male predator” trope (as I’ve said before).

TL;DR: His entire characterization is what strikes me as problematic but this octopus incident/erotic performances isn’t too unusual when compared to his established pattern of violent and (implied) sexually abusive behavior.

We can definitely agree to disagree here if you’d like to drop the conversation after this,  but there’s some things that you say that somewhat confuse me.

A lot of the things you list here is regular Bioshock villain  (or,  dare I say,  Bioshock character)  behavior.  Like killing people,  being violent,  and doing disturbing things while under the influence of ADAM.  Because of this I don’t really see these particular things as a proof for possible predatory behavior.

I haven’t really touched Burial at Sea for a while,  and I am not really planning to  (in my mind it’s not canon),  but I do hate his actions there.  I see how they can be perceived as confirming this  ‘pattern’  as well,  but this game was also made after the release of the book.

When you talk about disciple dialogue,  I know which ones you mean,  because I know pretty much all Fort Frolic dialogue like the back of my hand  (mostly because of @fxrtfrxlic​)  and none of it implies something unwanted going on.

“You wanna lock us in, old man?  Oh,  that’s fine with me.  I used to love you.  I used to think you were a musical genius.  You know why?  Because you paid my rent!”

This is an excerpt from the Audio diary from Silas.  As you see;  there’s obvious signs of relationships,  and how far they went are mostly kept up to interpretation…  which is definitely problematic as he is their boss,  but it’s not nearly to the same extend as what is portrayed within the book.

The only thing that could hint to anything sexually forceful going on is this dialogue from Hector

“The things that man had me do…  FUCK YOU!”

but since we know that Fort Frolic wasn’t always the most legal of places when it came to the criminal industry,  it could very likely refer to that as well.

There’s also these somewhat suggestive and / or flirty Radio messages

“Come down now,  little moth.  Life…  death…  the burden of the artist is to capture!”

“I know why you’ve come,  little moth.  You’ve your own canvas.  One you’ll paint with the blood of a man I once loved.

Yes,  I’ll send you to Ryan.  But first you must be part of my masterpiece.  Go to the atrium.  Hurry now.  My muse is a fickle bitch with a very short attention span.”

“You’ll find Finnegan in cold storage.  I discovered him in Marseilles in 1937.  He admired my painting,  I admired his…  carriage.  He was the first of my disciples to bite the hand.  Kill him any way you fancy,  but I’d prefer it if you could involve burning in some fashion.”

“He was a nasty one…  and my favorite.  But I think I like him better this way.  Take his damn photo,  chop chop!”

“You flutter all around the Fort, taking life as you go.  You’re not a moth,  you’re an angel.  I’ve never painted an angel…  maybe I should.”

(For full transparency;  I actually did look these up just to make sure I got them right.)

As much as I understand your discomfort with his character and how he is portrayed even within the first game,  that does not mean that his portrayal was as damaging as it is today from the start.

He was violent,  off putting,  and somewhat strange…  but all Bioshock enemies were!  But he wasn’t predatory in the way that the book makes him out to be.  And none of his negative character traits came from the fact that he is gay;  it came from the fact that he was a mad artist with a personal vendetta against his past lovers.

And,  as a villain,  he was pretty cool before he got negatively tokenized.

[deco-devolution]

I understand what you mean but… Burial At Sea IS canon. It’s part of the official releases, it’s the final entry into the current series and doesn’t do much do dissuade the trajectory of Cohen’s characterization. In my mind, BAS is canon, so human trafficker Cohen is canon, as well as murderer Cohen and assassin-hiring Cohen, etc. He watches Jack kill for him, makes the party goers dance to death, and keeps corpses around in his own depiction of art. Even if we sanitize it in the way you propose, someone could easily argue that him making the boy penetrate an octopus was just more of that same fascination with suffering, not sexually motivated, and the erotic stage shows are just ways to fuel Cohen’s ego in the laissez-faire environment of Rapture. Either way, I really don’t see why these two particular acts would be such a boundary for such a character to cross and I’m legitimately struggling to see any reason these would be out of line for you given his other antics.

[ryanindustrymen]

I'm not sure if I have expressed well enough that I am more coming at this from a writing perspective than an ethical point of view.

I'm not trying to say which crime is  'worse'  than the other;  I'm simply dividing the canon typical violence that every villain portrays and the actions that seem exclusive to Sander as a character.

So I am not saying  'Sander  (the character)  has crossed a line he would never cross.'  but I am saying  'The writers have crossed a line they should have never crossed.'  when they decided to take the step to develop him from a slightly problematic villain into an actual predator.  

Burial at Sea might have continued this trend,  but it started at the book.

When I initially replied to your post,  I was simply hoping for people to be more mindful of this information and the harmful ideas the book portrays before spreading them,  and I did not expect you to double down instead.

I’m honestly a bit taken aback.

[ryanindustrymen]

@deco-devolution:

It does align with canon though. For better or worse, the things we know about Sander Cohen are this unsettling. He’s a human trafficker (Burial At Sea) he regularly kills and plasters human corpses (BioShock) he is implied to have forced the disciples into unwarranted criminal and/or sexual situations thru in game dialogue (BioShock) had his competition murdered (BioShock) and of course forces Jack to hunt down his followers (BioShock) as a last art piece. All of this happens without the aforementioned content of the books which as far as I’m concerned, fits with his trend of violent and abusive behavior. Interestingly enough, there’s no implication he’s legit interested in the boy (though I can see your thought process) as in the game Cohen has a strange obsession with human suffering as art. And you’re right, Sander IS written as the classic homophobic “gay male predator” trope (as I’ve said before).

TL;DR: His entire characterization is what strikes me as problematic but this octopus incident/erotic performances isn’t too unusual when compared to his established pattern of violent and (implied) sexually abusive behavior.

We can definitely agree to disagree here if you’d like to drop the conversation after this,  but there’s some things that you say that somewhat confuse me.

A lot of the things you list here is regular Bioshock villain  (or,  dare I say,  Bioshock character)  behavior.  Like killing people,  being violent,  and doing disturbing things while under the influence of ADAM.  Because of this I don’t really see these particular things as a proof for possible predatory behavior.

I haven’t really touched Burial at Sea for a while,  and I am not really planning to  (in my mind it’s not canon),  but I do hate his actions there.  I see how they can be perceived as confirming this  ‘pattern’  as well,  but this game was also made after the release of the book.

When you talk about disciple dialogue,  I know which ones you mean,  because I know pretty much all Fort Frolic dialogue like the back of my hand  (mostly because of @fxrtfrxlic​)  and none of it implies something unwanted going on.

“You wanna lock us in, old man?  Oh,  that's fine with me.  I used to love you.  I used to think you were a musical genius.  You know why?  Because you paid my rent!”

This is an excerpt from the Audio diary from Silas.  As you see;  there’s obvious signs of relationships,  and how far they went are mostly kept up to interpretation...  which is definitely problematic as he is their boss,  but it’s not nearly to the same extend as what is portrayed within the book.

The only thing that could hint to anything sexually forceful going on is this dialogue from Hector

"The things that man had me do...  FUCK YOU!"

but since we know that Fort Frolic wasn’t always the most legal of places when it came to the criminal industry,  it could very likely refer to that as well.

There’s also these somewhat suggestive and / or flirty Radio messages

“Come down now,  little moth.  Life...  death...  the burden of the artist is to capture!”

“I know why you've come,  little moth.  You've your own canvas.  One you'll paint with the blood of a man I once loved.

Yes,  I'll send you to Ryan.  But first you must be part of my masterpiece.  Go to the atrium.  Hurry now.  My muse is a fickle bitch with a very short attention span.”

“You'll find Finnegan in cold storage.  I discovered him in Marseilles in 1937.  He admired my painting,  I admired his...  carriage.  He was the first of my disciples to bite the hand.  Kill him any way you fancy,  but I'd prefer it if you could involve burning in some fashion.”

“He was a nasty one...  and my favorite.  But I think I like him better this way.  Take his damn photo,  chop chop!”

“You flutter all around the Fort, taking life as you go.  You're not a moth,  you're an angel.  I've never painted an angel...  maybe I should.”

(For full transparency;  I actually did look these up just to make sure I got them right.)

As much as I understand your discomfort with his character and how he is portrayed even within the first game,  that does not mean that his portrayal was as damaging as it is today from the start.

He was violent,  off putting,  and somewhat strange...  but all Bioshock enemies were!  But he wasn’t predatory in the way that the book makes him out to be.  And none of his negative character traits came from the fact that he is gay;  it came from the fact that he was a mad artist with a personal vendetta against his past lovers.

And,  as a villain,  he was pretty cool before he got negatively tokenized.

[deco-devolution]

This is gonna be a weird ask but I saw someone say once that Cohen made a someone have sex with an octopus? Is that true and where the fuck was that made canon I'm scared

It’s mentioned in the BioShock: Rapture novel! More specifically on page 394. While the book is considered semi-canon, what we know of Cohen from the games aligns with this.

I have the full book for free on my pinned post!

[ryanindustrymen]

I’m sorry,  I don’t mean this as a call out to you personally  (I’m a big fan of your blog!)  but I do not see how  ‘what we know of Sander’  from the games aligns with the book at all.

Except for the fact that both are gay and outrageous,  and they share some dialogue that Shirley copy pasted from in - game dialogue,  there are very little resemblances to be found.

There might have been hints to him being somewhat promiscuous within the game;  but never to being sexually forceful with people!!  and none at all towards being into underage men.  

And I am honestly not even going to touch the octopus thing,  or how Shirley chose to portray Fort Frolic as some kind of sex dungeon.

His book portrayal is pretty much one of your standard  ‘predatory gay man’ - tropes,  while Sander is the only canonically gay character that the book has to offer.  And I personally don’t get why people seem to turn a blind eye to this and continue to perpetuate it.

It’s fine to consider certain parts of the book canon;  but seeing as to how liberal the fandom always is about which parts of the book,  I just wish they would take the rampant homophobic moments with a grain of salt as well.

[ryanindustrymen]

@nckviathn​​.  from here.

Where Atlas phases and circles him;  Andrew stands still.  Steadfast in his conviction.  His eyes remained focused on the man,  following his every move,  his mouth tensed into a thin line.

He lets the  ‘Voice of the People’  scream out his lungs at him,  twisting his words until they sound nothing like his own,  and waits a moment for the silence to settle.

Their public roars at first,  then jeers at the City’s Founder in anger at his refusal to answer,  until they eventually fall into a frustrated and discomforted silence;  exactly as Andrew wants.

“You assume that I consider you and any of these unfortunate people,”  he gestures around them  “The same,  but you are not.  They are not unwanted here!”  

Andrew turned towards the public now,  somewhat uncomfortable in the spotlight;  but willing to talk  “Work and opportunities await for those eager enough to built up from nothing.  You were all told about the City’s only laws and ideals when you took this job.”  he clasped his hands together in front of him  “You took a big risk in coming here!  For that,  I am eternally grateful.  But I cannot provide for you in any meaningful way,  except for approving future business proposals.”

[ryanindustrymen]

atlas for the character meme :o

Send Me a Character and I will tell you my...

FIRST IMPRESSION   I always hold back from forming an opinion at the start,  and he didn’t make a super big impression on me at the start,  though I do remember going  ‘Huh...  that doesn’t sound right.’  at his accent at some points.

IMPRESSION NOW  Very conflicting,  to be honest!  I think he’s genuinely super interesting as a villain,  especially as he is in canon.  Or as you play him!  But uh...  (and I know you’ve been struggling with this,  so please don’t take it to heart!)  I’ve had quite some bad experiences with Atlas RP’ers and with the way the fandom tends to portray Atlas as a whole.

FAVORITE MOMENT  I really love the moment of Atlas’ big reveal!  Just...  the big and harrowing built - up from finding the  ‘Would You Kindly?’ - board,  to facing down your father,  pieces slowly falling into place...  and then Atlas finally dropping his façade.  It’s very well done!  A great second contender are the like...  taunts Fontaine will sling at you while you’re making your way to him.

IDEA FOR A STORY  When I have an idea for a story involving Atlas,  I generally always just...  go straight to you!  So I don’t think I have any ideas for a story that you do not know about at the moment.

UNPOPULAT OPINION  I do not like  ‘Atlas is Real’ / Atlas is not Fontaine AUs,  unless they are done in a very particular way,  at all.

FAVORITE RELATIONSHIP  Jack / Atlas

FAVORITE HEADCANON  Alright,  I’m...  going to slightly cheat,  because it’s one that applies to your Atlas specifically.  I like the fact that he’s always hiding snacks and trinkets away in his pockets.  I also just still can’t get the entire conversation / headcanon exchange where you told me about that one out of my head,  it was such fun!

[ryanindustrymen]

@nckviathn​​​​.  from here.

The text  ‘Andrew Ryan is typing...’  had been flashing in and out of existence on the bottom of their chat log between 9:05 PM all the way through 9:12 PM as Rapture’s Founder attempted to come up with the best way forward.

All clear thought were out the window,  however,  once the photos started to load in.  Andrew forgot how to breathe,  like someone was forcing all air from his lungs,  and tears sprung to his eyes.  He wasn’t quite sure why,  though.

She had made her choice.  Let her rot with him.

[9:28 PM]  Why would yiu say that?

Oh.  Could you undo sending something?  Andrew would do anything to take that message back.  To sent in something more angry,  and less...  pathetic.

[9:28 PM]  It does not matetr.

[ryanindustrymen]

As a white Jewish person I don't see how being called white is offensive. Like I think non white Jewish people might take offense if I claimed to be a poc like them. I have to deal with antisemitism but as a white person I don't face the racism like poc do.

There i lot of different reasons why,  and I will definitely take your word for it.  Especially as a gentile,  I am not here to speak over people who are actually Jewish themselves.

I just know  (though this is second - hand knowledge from Jewish acquaintances)  that there are also a lot of people who are not comfortable with being considered white.

Personally,  I feel that it is worth it for both of these perspectives to be heard.  But there is a big history behind it that should not be ignored,  either,  especially since using their  ‘whiteness’  against Jewish people has been an ever - growing issue to excuse antisemitism.

I think that,  for people who do not know much about these issues,  the most helpful thing I found is asking Jewish people in your direct environment, or reading articles written by Jewish people themselves  (I included articles from both perspectives here at the end)!  <3

White privilege and Judaism.

Are Jews White?  Yes.  And No.

How calling people  ‘White Jews’  became an insidious slander.

[ryanindustrymen]

make your muse!

in order, from left to right:  Jack Jolene,  Jack Ryan  (raised in Rapture AU),  Anatoli Ryan,  Andrew Ryan.

tagged by:  @nckviathn tagging:  @fxrtfrxlic,  @sanctamater,  @nctalibxrator!

[dante-heller]

Okay did not know that character was Jewish. My bad.

[ryanindustrymen]

Yeahh,  uh...  the problem here doesn’t exactly come from the fact that you didn’t know about his heritage,  but more in the fact that you even made that joke to begin with.  Especially without even considering the possibility of anyone getting hurt by it.

To be clear,  we’re talking about this to which I replied this.

(I made a slight  ‘mistake’  in calling Gilbert Alexander Jewish,  because I initially thought they were referring to either Sander Cohen or Andrew Ryan himself,  but my point still stands.)

Also,  responding to someone asking for you to tag your shitty Hit//er jokes by saying  ‘WWII is a thing that happened,  and I doubt people affected by it are on Tumblr of all places.’  is really insensitive and belittling to how much suffering WWII has caused and is still actively causing people.

Acting like WWII is just  ‘a thing from the past’,  and the people who are alive right now aren’t affected by it in any way anymore,  is one of the most privileged things I’ve ever heard.

Even when not taking into account how much generational trauma wars cause;  a lot of us aren’t even one generation separated from the people who have been in the war yet.  

To put this into perspective;  I am only 25 years old,  and a lot of my aunts and uncles were there during WWII.

     [EDIT]  They responded,  and we had a short back - and - forth,  and I think things are pretty alright now.  (Not going to delete the post,  because my standpoint still very much stands,  though.)

[ryanindustrymen]

WHICH TWO GREEK GODS ARE YOUR PARENTS? INSPIRED BY HADES (2018)

JACK

Atlas  &  Harmonia.  Oh,  sweet child of penance and harmony!  Your father eternally holds up the skies,  and your mother turned serpentine for love.  A life of greatness stands before you dictated by endurance,  contentment,  and serenity.  No man can tell you what realm you preside over,  but look to themes of forgiveness and freedom as you grow into your power.

ANDREW RYAN

Ares  &  Eris.  Oh,  sweet child of battle and strife!  Your father is the untamed idol of war,  and your mother the vengeful sewer of discord.  A life of greatness stands before you dictated by power,  bellicosity,  and chaos.  No man can tell you what realm you preside over,  but look to themes of wrath,  destruction,  and revenge as you grow into your power.

ANATOLI RYAN

Dionysus  &  Persephone.  Oh,  sweet child of wine and flowers!  Your father stands of pleasure and madness,  and your mother the Queen of the Underworld.  A life of greatness stands before you dictated by revelry,  happiness,  and compassion.  No man can tell you what realm you preside over,  but look to themes of honey and art as you grow into your power.

TAGGED:  @nckviathn TAGGING:  @fxrtfrxlic  &  @svperposition

[atlaslies-deactivated20220428]

ATLAS : Mummy’s a bit of a sore spot, is she? Yeah, I expect she was used to that. JACK, literally throwing himself from the opposite balcony to throttle him :

[ryanindustrymen]

God...  despite never having had the chance to meet her  (or maybe because of this)  Jack is so protective of his mother;  he will throw hands with anyone who has anything bad to say about her.

And because I love that RP of ours,  have some small snippets and Jack being a momma’s boy here under the cut:

Jack just has so much unresolved pain  (and a feeling of duty)  towards his biological family,  and also just a lot of familial love that he has never been able to truly act upon  (because he finds out that his topside  ‘family’  has been fake all along).

And he projects that onto Jasmine a lot;  even taking up her last name;  despite never meeting her before her death,  and knowing very little about her.

[atlaslies-deactivated20220428]

@ryanindustrymen & me talking about poor jack :(

[ryanindustrymen]

Often I let myself forget how BIG Jack actually is,  and then I’m reminded.

The poor guy has so little feeling of object permanence,  and functions on muscle memory alone when it comes to these things,  so like --  the blanket - challenge would definitely work on him.

[cardboard-aliens]

can I get a tldr for the bioshock thing

It’s nothing new- but Ken Levine did a recent interview with TheBioshockHub where he restated all his trash takes on BioShock, saying that BaS was his way to ‘neatly tie up the series’ and capture "what the series is all about” which according to him is that abuse is an inescapable cycle that gets passed on and on (which is like the complete OPPOSITE of what BS1 and BS2 are about, and only BaS has this theme, but Ken will say Elizabeth is the only example of a BioShock character escaping their abuse when he wrote the opposite). Along with saying dumb stuff like that he didn’t know Ayn Rand was politically relevant.

and implying some more Lutecest because IDK why, this man is wild for incest.

We also have the meta problem, that I 100% agree with, that it feels like Ken went to a small time youtuber who couldn’t ask him any tough questions to get some favor with fans- While claiming to have watched some of the interviewers videos, specifically ones about how BioShock helped them with recovering from their abuse, and giving them (an abuse survivor!) his crap about how ‘the abused become abusers’ which is NOT GOOD KEN-

MOST of this is old stuff Ken has said, but we haven’t heard from him in a while so all the sleeping BioShock fans woke up and are angry (which is valid, honestly). But the context of the interview feels very sleazy on Ken’s end.

@ryanindustrymen went over most this stuff in their post [x] and its not too long of a read, its basically a better TLDR

[ryanindustrymen]

Thank you for tagging me in this,  I’m still going absolutely feral over the fact that Ken Levine really said that.  (The only reason I’m not throwing more of a public fit is because Erik is really happy with the interview,  but I’m personally still frothing at the mouth over it.)

What the fuck --

[deco-devolution]

TheBioshockHub

HUGE thank you to Ken Levine, his assistant Lizzie, and the rest of the Ghost Story Games teams for allowing me to conduct this interview. Also, a HUGE thank you to all of you who have supported me throughout the years… Without you, this wouldn’t have been possible. From the bottom of my heart, thank you so much. With all of that being said, I do hope you enjoy the Interview with Ken Levine (2020). Also, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday season!

[ryanindustrymen]

I would normally not shill out my own posts on someone else’s,  but I do think that this post I just made has some much - needed context for before you go into this interview.

Erik is a really sweet guy,  and he hit his first - ever professional interview out of the park imho,  even though many people here on Tumblr would argue his questions weren’t hard - hitting enough.

[ryanindustrymen]

Highlights of an interview with Ken Levine my friend just did incoming.  It’s paraphrased and I might sound slightly delirious,  because I’m tired,  and I just made myself listen to this guy’s bullshit for hours.

Keep reading

[ryanindustrymen]

Under the cut are some more points I hadn’t pointed out in the previous post,  because I hadn’t had the full time to process,  and this is more of a personal beef than anything else.

is it just me or is the fact that he chose Erik to interview him out of all people pretty...  weird ??

like...  do not get me wrong;  Erik did an amazing job,  he truly knocked it out of the park  (especially for this being his first ever professional interview)  and I am so proud of him !!

but also...  he is a fairly small YouTuber,  who is an open fan of all of Ken Levine works and I can’t shake the feeling that they knew that going to him for an interview would give them a lot of brownie points  (because there’s quite some people (including me) who would root for someone like Erik to get a fair shot at life)

and there’s no way Erik could’ve gotten away with asking too hard - hitting questions and have his channel actually survive it

am I insinuating that Levine and his studio took advantage of my friend ??

maybe

I don’t know

and I don’t want to think about it too long,  because Erik is just...  such a sweetheart,  and the opportunity made him so happy,  and it breaks my heart

Levine also has some nerve trying to sell his piss poor  ‘cycle of abuse’ - take towards my friend,  while they literally started their contact over an heartfelt video where my friend opened up about his past  (dealing with abuse)  and what Bioshock meant for his recovery

I thought you claimed you had watched it,  Levine ?!

care to explain to me in what world that was appropriate ?!

I will meet you at Denny’s parking lot

Because I have seen some people  (not these people in particular)  criticize Erik as an interviewer,  I’m @ing some of the people who have reblogged this post,  because I feel like it adds some very important context to the interview.

@catjoxter,  @littlebunnysander,  @jazzmine-jolene,  @idkjustsomegames,  @augustussinclairofficial,  @cardboard-aliens.  

The TL;DR is that Ken Levine sat right there;  telling my friend  (who is an abuse survivor)  his  ‘abuse is an unstoppable circle’ - spiel  (unprompted!)  right to his face,  without blinking.  (Also he most probably cherry picked him for the interview for whatever reason.)

And I’m like...  not saying that you should all join me in a personal vendetta against Levine because of any of this...  just asking everyone not to be too harsh on my friend.