#*joffrey baratheon

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

Joffery is from both Lannister and Baratheon houses? Though it was meant to be just Baratheon?

Hi anon!

Well Joffrey is a Lannister by his mother’s side, and a Baratheon by his father’s side. For appearances’ sake of course. And the Lannisters continuously tried to make themselves noticeable and take credit for their own House, but Joffrey should have always been just a Baratheon (Though the funny thing there is that he is pure Lannister. Both his mother an his real father are Lannisters. He’s the result of Cersei and Jaime’s incestuous relationship). I should add the show plays that side a lot more than the books. The books were more subtle there, the show most of the time identifies Joffrey as a Lannister, maybe because they think the viewers might forget that he’s not a Baratheon and the storyline that has been developed since season 1. But again the books too even early in the story (AGOT) mentioned Lannisters’ banners during Robert, Cersei and Joffrey’s visit to Winterfell.

Thanks!

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

When I was first introduced to Joffery, in TV show, he talks about a centralized army and from then on I felt that his character would be far better if he was a modernizer of the kingdoms but a douche who nobody liked from a personal stance as well as fearing the change in status quo. I feel that petulant child character was too simple and martin could have done better to a degree. Putting that out there to see if anyone agrees with my weird idea

Hi anon.

I disagree. The purpose of Joffrey as a character is to show he's a child with power with no idea how to handle it. It’s in fact his need to show he has it that leads to all of his abuses. He’s a capricious little kid, who knows nothing about ruling the seven kingdoms, or even how to keep his people happy and loyal to him. The purpose of him as a character is to show failure and capriciousness (and that even in that case power would still allow him to sit on the throne).  Joffrey wouldn’t have ever had a political plan to modernize or even rule the kingdoms, because he was never taught to do anything else but to show his privilege and status. He was never taught about the importance of ruling, the needs of the people, how to win wars and how to take care of his kingdom. He couldn’t have ever set up an idea of how to change things because he had no interest in changing them. If GRRM had made him what you wanted there would be a real disconnect between where the character comes from, has been, or lived, to where he is going. The writer has to "realistically" set up situations that have explanation in past lived moments. How can he write that Joffrey wanted to modernize the 7 kingdoms if his father was more than happy to "rule" things as they were. His father wanted order and his Hands provided that. The Hands ruled the 7 kingdoms, not the King, and Robert knew that. Robert didn't care to do more. And where else would have Joffrey gotten those ideas? From his mother? I don't think so. She just taught him he could do what he wanted, and sheltered him. For me, you have to have something that explains why the character wants to go in a certain direction. For example, Daenerys' ideas to free slaves and ban all sorts of slavery finds an explanation and is the result of her own experiences when she was sold, raped and used.

Joffrey's kingship was never about ruling, it was about domination. He has power and he wants them to bend the knee. Nothing more. Joffrey is there to prove to the reader (whether that comes across in the show is another thing), an heir, no matter how much or how little right he has to rule, is not necessarily the best choice for his people. At some point Joffrey is aware of the dangers his crown is facing, and all he wants is to do is defeat the rebels, and sit back an enjoy. He even questions his grandfather’s actions in that sense. But all in all, his purpose as a character is showing nothing new but to cause the needed riots in order to allow the arise of other Kings and other forces. Of course the main issue with his ruling is his lack of right to sit on the throne, but as time passes he not only wins the hate of the North and others, but as well the hate of his own people, that don’t even respect him no matter how much they might fear his capricious ways.

If Joffrey had been in any way trying to rule, or like you say modernize the kingdom, then Renly and Robb would have been more of the same in a different package, and with slight different ideas (even if their ideas weren't necessarily about "modernizing" still it would have been repetitive).

Joffrey as a character is there to show a child is the result of the life his parents have provided for him, the life they taught him, and the future they showed him he could get. Robert and Cersei failed him. They either didn't care or cared to much, but in the wrong way. You clearly see he was prepared to be a King in the wrong way  or wasn't even prepared (while his brother and sister were just kids, he was going to be a King someday). They gave him a responsibility without teaching him about responsibility and duty. I don't excuse Joffrey, I just think people forget sometimes he's a child with a big job, he knows nothing about because no one taught him. And even in the case of coping what his predecessor did, he did not have much of an example to know better. His tyrannic ruling is a more Mad King than Baratheon, and that's on him, not on his parents. But still he had no good example to follow and to change things like you want.

Thanks!

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

Hi ! That is not a submit, just a few words. I just wanted to say I really liked your interpretation about Joffrey and Robert. It's just so good !

I used to think Robert was only a drunk, fat king who never wanted power and lived in the past, but I discovered recently (I watch the show - where it's not strongly implied he is an abusive husband and father - and I'm only at book one of ASOIAF) the things he has done. Like you have said, Joffrey could have turned a lot better if he had had better role models (I think he would have had some sadistic urges, but he would have repressed or controlled them at least). But I think that Cersei is the one who could have been totally different of what she is now, because she seemed to be so full of hope and dreams when she was young. With a decent husband, she could have been far more... stable than she is. But Robert's behavior towards her crushed them, and I think he played a big part in her paranoids tendencies and especially her desperate need to protect her children. So, even if I still don't like her for the things she has done (NEEDDD !!!), I understand her a little bit better.

Anyways, sorry for this long message. You probably didn't care, but I just wanted to let you know I found your analysis very deep and relevant !

I hope is ok to post this.

I agree about Robert. That was my interpretation too of him in the beginning. I actually pitied him. And it wasn't till my re-read when I started seeing a lot of things that bothered me about him. I think it is easy to get that idea of him, because mostly we get to know him through Ned's eyes. And Ned is not reliable when it comes to Robert. If we think about it, he really saw all the things his friend did, like fathering bastards, hardly ever caring for them, being abusive towards his wife, and drowning himself in wine, and yet he didn't really stopped seeing him as a good man grieving the love of his life, and having too much to handle as King. I think it's Ned's views on him what made me not look at all the things he had done, and that would have changed my feelings if it had been another character. Hardly ever Ned really allowed himself to see the flaws in his friend, yet he recognized there were problems there.

I think Joffrey would have been different if he had had different role models to guide him. I do think that there's something about his personality that drives him to be the way he is. But maybe he would have, like you said, controlled himself better, if at least one father figure would have paid some attention to him.

Really interesting what you point about Cersei. I haven't considered that in that way. I do think that the people who surrounds a person can definitely change that person for good or bad, but I can't really blame something like Cersei abandoning all her dreams and hopes because of the kind of husband Robert was. There's a big impact on it for sure, but ultimately I feel she would have kept a relationship on the side with Jaime anyway, and would have made her house prevail over the one resulting from the Baratheon-Lannister marriage. I can't just point at Robert and say because he was the way he was she has those paranoid tendencies. I think Robert did have a big impact in Cersei, for the wrong and not for the right. But it might have to do as well with a mix of that and her status in her own family, her father and the way he raised her and the way he treated her. I think many things come into place when it comes to Cersei's actions, paranoia, and struggles. Robert, his treatment towards her, and the way he was about his not legitimate children, is a factor on it, but I don't think it's majorly the cause of them. Mainly it comes from somewhere else, but since you are in book one, I don't want to spoil it. And maybe even when you finish the books, you could totally disagree about this one with me.

Thanks! Interesting topic to discuss. :)

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

Do you think Jack Gleeson should be given more credit as an actor because he plays a character so drastically different from him whereas Peter Dinklage plays a character who is quite similar to him personality-wise?

hmmm. Good point.

Yes. Many actors usually make a career based on their ability to use their personality as the trademark of their characters. I think is arguable whether they play the characters greatly, or they play themselves over and over again. In some cases, it does work, like RDJ in Iron Man, other times it just becomes too much, and they exhaust people with their gimmicks.

I think Dinklage’s strong suit is the comical side of Tyrion, and a certain part of his wits. Dinklage himself seems to have those traits, as well as a certain sarcastic tactic, that goes well with the character. The other parts of the role, are not so easy for him, and he has given a sub-par performance when he hasn’t had the chance to use his personal traits.

Gleeson seems completely different from his character, and basically yeah, he is acting. He does his job properly, and exceeds the expectations.

There’s definitely something there to be said. So, great point.

Thanks!

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

sansmerci said: He did kill kittens! He cut a pregnant cat open to see the kittens inside and showed Robert—that’s when Robert was like, wtf, how are we related?

you are right! completely forgot. remembered it wrong, thought it was a puppy. not that that makes it any better.

"that’s when Robert was like, wtf, how are we related?" More like Robert knocked a tooth out of him (if I remember correctly).

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

It could just be me, but several of the changes to Cersei in the show bother me. Her apparently having a son with Robert and loosing him in infancy bothered me since she proudly declares in AFFC that she would never allow herself to give him a child. And then her relationship with Joffrey is ten shades of messed up. It only bothers me because I feel they are trying hard to make her look more sympathetic when that isn't how I interpret her in the books.

I agree.

And I just hate he whole idea of trying to make some characters more “sympathetic”. Why is there need to do that? Why try to make every character black or white, then in fact it is their "greyness" that it is so appealing. 

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

All replies in one:

Replies about Clarke's singing:

lavender-and-creme said: To be honest if she had a past as a singer then I’d expect her yelling to sound better. I think some people are good at yelling and some just aren’t. She’s in the second category.

LOL!

Replies about Joffrey:

black-sister said: Aside for shock value, they want to paint him like another Ramsay. Book!Joff was pretty asexual to me, the whore comment in the book was just to make Sansa scared, IMHO

That's my take on it as well

  pixolith said: I thought it was because he’s been aged up in the show. In the books he’s barely entering puberty so the sexual element isn’t there yet, but he still kills people with the crossbow.

  lavender-and-creme said: I don’t know if book!Joffrey would go after prostitutes, but I remember him making references to how past kings had mistresses and how he will do the same. But obviously the two aren’t mutually exclusive. The show just does this for shock value.

I remember that too, and that was basically because he wanted to emulate Robert. The show could have done that, instead of making him shoot and torture prostitutes <<<< That it is not about sex at all.

[the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting]

The show is trying to convince us that Joffery would go around abusing and killing whores. But would Joffery really want anything to do with whores, and if he did choose to torture them, would he really be doing it because it as a fetish? He spent his life being ignored by his father while Robert went off and got whores pregnant, his other father figure, Sandor probs never spoke that highly of prostitues either. I can't imagine Joffery, even show!Joffery really being sexually fond of them

Hi anon.

I find book!Joffrey not even interested in sex in general, or -to the extreme-, getting sexual pleasure by killing or torturing the girls. I guess the sex issue had to be addressed since they aged the character, but showing interest in sex, doesn’t mean he has to develop some sort of brutal and sick way to express it. The sexual violence he displayed in this season, and the previous one, shows me they are changing a lot about the character. Even for show!Joffrey I find it out of character (They were adamant in showing Joffrey at battle pretending to be a brave King, and yet when they were about to lose, he rushed to his chambers using his mother’s needs as an excuse). Joff is a coward, if he wants someone dead, he will make it happen, but not by himself, he will get anyone to do it for him. What he wants to show is power, and if he has to be cruel to show it, he will do it. But he’s not about to torture people for a fetish.

It’s hard to “defend” a character like Joffrey. I don’t mean to make excuses for his behavior, but the show is not representing the real Joffrey. That was completely out of character, and as the scene with the crossbow and both prostitutes, I would like to pretend that didn’t happen. (same goes for Doreah killing Irri on the deleted scenes).

thanks