#al ghuls

[vampirlor]

talia canonically going to med school is so funny to me. she's involved in so many plots and schemes like girl your readings

[suffering-and-misery]

Does Ra’s have Tim’s Speen? A Deep Dive into Fandom Racism

The whole ‘Ra’s stole Tim’s spleen!!’ debacle is a very prevalent story in DC/batfam/tim drake fan spaces, with many people assuming its canon and creating even more content surrounding this narrative. This post intends to dive into the following topics:

The inherent orientalist writing of the al Ghuls

The canon events leading to Tim losing his spleen (spoiler alert: Ra’s doesn’t have it)

Why it is racist to parrot the idea of Ra’s having stole it

Common reasons people cite to defend this narrative

The inherent orientalist writing of the al Ghuls

First of all, what is Orientalism? Orientalism is a broad term describing the Western stereotype of Eastern cultures, or the Orient (particularly Asia and North Africa), as backwards and exotic. Coined by Edward Said, it describes the way Western civilization portrays itself as superior and rational, while portraying the Orient as irrational and wrong.  Common orientalist stereotypes include the assumptions that Eastern societies are misogynistic, barbaric/violent, sexual/perverted, and inherently behind societally.

When it comes to DC, the way the al Ghuls are portrayed is inherently orientalist. They are of mixed arab/chinese descent - you can find some more details about that in this post by @/daminette-56 (the post is about Damian's Chinese heritage in particulal, but it still applies). They fit into the racist trope of the ‘Asian Assassins’ - elite East Asian ninja assassins which use traditional/ancient combat forms to kill. Ra’s is the controlling man, Talia is the Dragon lady/Femme Fatale, and their overall concept can be attributed to oriental views. This is furthered by the existence of Damian’s character, since it caused Talia to be converted to a 2-dimensional villain to facilitate Damian’s white saviour story when he is sent to live with his white father to ‘learn to live normally’, or to be civilized. 

Despite this, the al Ghuls are interesting characters. Ra’s motive as an environmental terrorist (who used to be a doctor!) and Talia’s inner dilemma over her loyalty to her father make them complex characters. Damian’s love for animals stems from his upbringing with the al Ghuls. The fandom tends to ignore this, however, and keep them as boring background characters without much depth. 

When I analyze fandom racism surrounding the al Ghuls, it is important for me to distinguish between what is coming from DC and what is coming from the fandom. As such, it is vital to determine whether or not Ra’s having Tim’s spleen is canon.

2. Does Ra’s have Tim’s spleen?

The short answer is no.

Lets summarize the events which caused Tim to lose his spleen. Tim loses his spleen in his standalone Red Robin series. It happens in the second arc of the series (issues 5-8), called The Council of Spiders. There's a bunch of buildup, but Tim essentially teams up with Ra’s al Ghul to complete his current mission - finding Bruce, who is lost in the time stream. Tim agrees to work with Ra’s (after he kidnaps him and his coworker Tam), however he secretly plans to take down the League Of Assassins from the inside.

During this time, Tim survives an ambush by a group called the Council of Spiders. Later on, Ra’s tasks him with defeating this rival assassin group since he is the only one known to have survived an attack from them. Tim sets up a plan, however it backfires and they are attacked by the Spiders. In this attack, Tim is stabbed and resigns himself to death, however he is saved by White Ghost who stitches him up (presumably with the help of fellow assassins) and removes his spleen due to the damage it has sustained. When this happens, Ra’s is nowhere near. 

Tim’s spleen is never mentioned again. The arc concludes with Tim blowing up all LoA bases that currently exist, and Ra’s threatens to blow up Wayne Enterprises in retaliation. 

Ra’s is not shown to be nearby when Tim’s spleen is taken. He is not implied to have it. He is never shown in possession of it.

It is safe to conclude that Ra’s al Ghul is not in possession of Tim’s spleen.

3. Why is it racist to parrot the idea that Ra’s has Tim’s spleen?

The reason this fandom narrative is inherently racist is since it feeds into multiple orientalist stereotypes. As defined before, Orientalism is the idea that Western society paints itself as superior to Eastern society. Here are the two most harmful ideas it feeds into: 

Creepy Brown Man imagery: Brown men in media are often painted as inherently creepy, predatory, and dangerous. This is closely linked to the ‘othered foreigner’ trope, where writers focus on the otherness of characters of colour rather than any other trait. Now, I will not deny that Ra’s is dangerous. However, the way he is portrayed by the fandom as borderline obsessed with Tim, going as far as to keep his spleen as a trophy, clearly feeds into the ‘creep’ aspect of this stereotype. It also ignores the fact that Tim was kidnapped by Ra’s for this mission purely due to the tactical advantage - Tim was the only one to have survived a Spider attack, so it was logical to have him be part of the mission. Instead, it shifts the narrative to make Ra’s seem irrationally attached to Tim. 

Sacrificing characterization for propping up a white character: Ra’s is never portrayed as anything other than an evil tyrant within the Tim Drake fan space. His characterization as an eco-terrorist whose goal is to save the Earth from ecological destruction is sacrificed, and he is instead characterized as power hungry, obsessed (see above paragraph), or plain evil with no reasoning behind it (all of which contribute to the Evil Brown Character stereotype separately. Together? It's even worse). Once again, it ignores the logic that accompanies Ra’s decision in choosing Tim, and either paints him as a poor victim attacked by Ra’s, or a fighter so powerful that even Ra’s had to acknowledge him. Any logic Ra’s applied to the decision is ignored in favour of propping up the white character.

4. Common justifications given for this narrative/storyline

It's literally canon! → as I've already broken down, it isn’t. 

But Ra’s is obsessed with Tim!! He calls him Detective and respects him and his fighting! → Ra’s also refers to both Bruce and Dick as ‘detective’. This title is not exclusive to Tim and does not prove anything. Additionally, respecting someone as a fighter and stealing their body parts as a trophy for beating them are two very different things.

But Ra's wants Tim to be his heir!!! -> what does this have to do with his spleen

But Ra's is a creep!! -> he kills people, but hes not a creep. See above, he cares about Tim purely for his skills and nothing else

It is not out of character for Ra’s to take his spleen! He’s a cult leader and taking trophies from people isn’t uncommon !!! → Ra’s is an ecoterrorist. He has no use for anyone’s spleen. Although he is sometimes depicted taking trophies, they are in the form of land or material items, not body parts. (The assumption that Ra’s takes human body parts as trophies is also orientalist, by the way. Goes back to the original ‘Asian Assassins’ trope, as well as the ‘Barbaric Brown People’ ideal.)

But its a common story in fanon!! -> Commonality does not make something less racist

But I don't mean for it to be racist, I don't write it that way!! -> Intent does not make something less racist

In short:

[ameeraljinn]

What… is Talia even wearing here?? 😭

This is supposed to be Talia al Ghul in disguise btw.

But look at it face veil, head covering, exposed midriff, tight dancer outfit. This is not a real outfit 😭

It’s basically veil + belly dancer costume + “desert princess” aesthetic.

A Western fantasy of Arab womanhood.

And this comes from something called Orientalism.

Orientalism turns “the East” into exotic, sensual, mysterious instead of specific, real, lived cultures.

So instead of representation, you get “vibes.” And those vibes are almost always sexy, dangerous and other.

And it matters because Talia is supposed to be a politically aware strategist, controlled and powerful but visually she’s framed as seductive, exotic, not a person but a fantasy.

They want her to be intelligent and dangerous, but they present her through a stereotype.

That contradiction happens constantly with Arab characters.

Also I’m crying because Batman recognizes her through lines like:

“her movements… unmistakably graceful…”

Sir. She is dressed like a walking stereotype 😭

And this isn’t just about Talia either.

Arab characters in media repeatedly get reduced to assassin, terrorist, or exotic figures. This is done over and over again.

Media scholar Jack Shaheen talked about how Arabs in Western media are often reduced to variations of the “bomber, belly dancer, or billionaire” stereotype.

And the wild part is… the Al Ghuls basically hit all three.

billionaire -> global elite, controlling resources

bomber → League of Assassins / terrorism-coded violence

belly dancer → Talia dressed like… this

So even when you think you’re getting a “complex” Arab character, they’re often still built from the same stereotypes.

Arab identity is not a costume. It’s cultural, historical, regional, linguistic, and deeply diverse. And it absolutely does not look like a belly dancer outfit from a 70s comic.

You can write Talia as powerful without turning her into an Orientalist fantasy. We deserve Arab characters who feel like actual people.

And even the dialogue reinforces the framing:

“serving girl” “fluid as quicksilver… unmistakably graceful”

Even the narration objectifies her.

Her body = visual spectacle Her movement = sensual performance Her identity = secondary to fantasy

[missmidc]

"Oh, it's okay for this portrayal because Ra's is inherently evil and his daughter is just like him—"

MOTHERFUCKER, YOU JUST DIDN'T.....

Sure Ra's is evil, but the twat still has morals that DC has wiped out to fit him into fully fledged terrorist imagery instead of an eco-terrorist that actually cares about the Earth and good hard-working people.

And Talia? Sure, she does some things that may come off as bad or extreme, but the woman is still morally ambiguous and has ethics and morals too; she's another ethnic woman of colour with a complex character DC has fucked sideways.

So unless you've actually read the ORIGINAL comics *(cough cough* the BLUEPRINT comics) for these characters, you can fuck right off because they're not inherently evil, they're not fanatical, they're not fucking raging terrorists. They're two people with insane power, moral codes, a kill rule, AND ECO-TERRORISTS OMFFF.

They love the planet; these mfs are going to be the biggest global warming bullshit campaigners if they were real. Fuck, they'd probably be friends with Poison Ivy with her love for nature.

I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ITTTTTT.

Like, just because they're supposed to be complex characters does not mean you can be racist and wash them out. I'm going to fucking KILL absolute Superman comics because why the FUCKKKKKK? I'm going to fight someone, ya'll. DC has got to stop reinforcing racist caricatures and themes and blasphemy and all that other rubbish before i actually fight them.

Goodnight.

[strokercrunchwrapsupreme]

talia and ra's

[francesfereshteh]

screaming crying throwing up are we still doing muslim LoA?? are we still spewing islamophobia and racism for absolutely no reason?????

[metis-iphigenia]

AL GHUL FAMILY TEXT POSTS PART THREE!!!

i got carried away and made too much so im abt to post part 4 in a sec😭😭

[urfavkhaleeji]

talia al ghul is saudi idc argue with the wall