#apologist discourse

[dreamslesbian]

can i ask why you're a c!dream apologist? /genq :0 bc last i checked hes done lots of. extremely questionable things canonically, and a lot of c!dream antis actually think ccdream is lovely :D!

- please don't misconstrue this as hate or anything! i do just genuinely want to know :00

ok this is late and got long so its going to have a read more but lets give this a go !

first of all: "he's done extremely questionable things" yes he has ! and so has more than half the server !!

listen this isn't whataboutism, im not saying you can't criticize c!dream for x bc this other character did y, criticize him ! analyze him and tear him a new one !!

however we probably are going to disagree on what his wrongdoings are and if they are justified/necessary/understandable/etc, and i suppose thats where the 'apologist' comes in right? like as much as people want to argue that it means a person excuses everything and anything the character has done, that is hardly ever the case. mostly bc for that to happen you have to be defending the stalest most boring piece of wonder bread character to have ever graced the earth, you are severely misinterpreting the character OR youre lying to yourself and everyone else.

that being said, in my case for example i think exile was inexcusable, morally reprehensible and a particular low point for c!dream's character, i don't defend or excuse this. on the other hand his opposition of l'manburg and the deaths that it resulted in? not so much.

now of course ppl are going to disagree with this pov and thats okay ! if you think everything hes ever done is unjustifiable and evil more power to you, i passionately disagree with you, but you are entitled to your opinion. its when ppl get sanctimonious and hypocritical that i get upset. bc they'll curse c!dream apologists out and harass us then turn around and be an apologist for another character with just as long a war crime history like, lets be consistent at least.

this is a long winded way of saying im a c!dream apologist bc 1) it probably doesnt mean to me what it means to you 2) i am very passionate about his character and truly find him an interesting sympathetic character.

also to your last point ! i am aware a lot of c!dream antis like or are at least perfectly civil with cc!dream but the fact that you have to clarify that lets me know you are at least aware that it is a problem with c!dream antis to some extent so yeah.

[call-me-apple]

Okay I really feel the "fandom discourse feels like politics" thing because I had a conversation (argument) with a friend from a conservative household a few weeks ago about the death penalty and punitive justice. A lot of the stuff he said reminded me a LOT of discourse in fandom around "irredeemable" characters- specifically how he seemed to view people who did certain specific things as not people anymore and not "deserving of redemption" and how he equated redemption and forgiveness, and he used the same arguments that people use for the characters that they find irredeemable. That whole thing made it impossible for me to turn off my politics brain when engaging with that flavor of fan politics tbh, because they resemble real world politics way too closely to be comfortable.

Oh man SO MUCH DSMP DISCOURSE IS JUST STRAIGHT UP POLITICS IT'S NUTS. It's either politics or morality discourse and like... how did we get here half the people here are like 15 years old.

Like noooo I don't want to hear you talk about how someone can deserve torture and to be treated inhumanely coz that has IMPLICATIONS. GOD I HOPE YOU DON'T HAVE THESE SAME ATTITUDES TOWARDS REAL LIFE COZ HOLY SHIT

This is a political story. We've got nations and rulers and an anarchist and tales of how power corrupts and a god damn inhumane prison. The story touches upon real-world issues A LOT. But that's not really what I was referring to in the ask when saying the discourse reminds me of politics.

I meant that people straight up use the same tactics as people participating in political discourse. There's the same "labelling" to make your opponent seem worse and not worth listening to. Don't like what someone says about your mentally ill fave? Just call them ableist! Problem solved! Now their opinion isn't worth listening to!

There's also a lot of focus on labelling oneself. "Enjoyer", "enthusiast", "apologist", "sympathizer". "No I am not an apologist for this character." This reminds me of politics too where you have people yelling "no I'm not a commie!" when expressing similar ideas to communism because they're terrified of being associated with that political group.

Apologist discourse is like this weird vile mix of sports and politics. The absurdity of it all catches up to me sometimes and I'm just *head in hands*

[randomfansstuff]

I think the biggest issue in the whole twitter apologists discourse is that there are completely different moral beliefs being pushed against eachother.

like, the thing that's being argued about mostly isn't "c!dream is an abuser" because thats a fact. the thing thats being argued about is "is it morally okay to wish harm onto an abuser" or "are you able/allowed to feel sympathy for abusers"

I'll be honest i have no idea how it got to that point lmfao

[gabilunaar]

I don't dislike any character of the dsmp, i can dislike their actions but the character? I can't, everyone has their point of view, they have a reason for the decisions that they make, i think people in the fandom forget this a lot, is easy to despise a character being a viewer, knowing what is happening with everyone one

I love to follow at least one apologist os every character, i don't like the ideia of being apologists but it's fun to see their arguments and discutions, it really frustrates me that they all are right but want to prove the other wrong, making a morale grey character a villain just bc it makes your fav c! look good

I see this a lot with c! Tommy and c! Tecnho apologists, they both are my favorite characters and the discourse is just dumb, the miscommunication between them is huge and that's it, they clearly care about each other and both of them made mistakes

And that's why I love the dsmp, the characters make mistakes, they are not 100%, this make them more human, is why I never liked this "apologist" thing, their mistakes are important parts of them, when you take it from they it's just not them anymore

C! Dream is clearly made to be a villain, i love him for that, he is such a good character but apologists just twist the narrative to make him redeemable, which is dumb, is ok to like the villain and idk why ppl need to defend him in order to just enjoy and vibe with the character

Making c! Puffy a bad dad will not redeem your fav, making c! Techno a insensitive rock will not redeem your fav, ignoring how mentally fucked c! Sam was will not redeem your fav.

[chicagoissootwoyearsago]

scalding take: c!dream apologists are quite a bit better at analysing c!tommy than c!tommy apologists themselves.

At least they acknowledge all aspects of his character and don’t just reduce him to what happened in exile. I’m not diminishing the importance of exile in any way just saying tho. Of course this doesn’t mean everyone but I feel safe in saying the majority from what I’ve seen.

[melo-efcarist]

Why perspective and empathy matter SO MUCH in the DreamSMP: A post that I felt the need to make.

// dsmp , rp , the festival , doomsday 

Perspective changes a lot of things we know about characters and the plotline. What could look like an act of protection to one looks like an act of cruelty to the other. Outside perspectives are good for looking at events, but never good for looking at character depth. It doesn’t show what the character felt and went through compared to actually watching their point of view. With a biased point of view, or viewing things from an unreliable narrator, you could have a warped perception of a character. I think a good example of this is C!Tommy fans that didn’t watch C!Techno’s perspective. In the doomsday war, C!Tommy labeled C!Techno as a tyrant. However, if you view it from C!Techno’s point of view - or anyone else’s point of view for that matter - that moment was almost laughable.  Anyone that knows C!Techno would not agree with C!Tommy. That is because C!Techno was hurt. He gave the government a chance to live already, but due to all the things that the government did to the people he cared about, he just couldn’t sit idly anymore. “It’s clear that the government and I can’t coexist in this world, Tommy.” And so, he destroyed the country, along with Dream. Now, you see, even after this, some people who viewed it from C!Tommy’s point of view didn’t notice something. C!Techno was also mad for C!Tommy. I was watching Ranboo’s POV, and I thought it was obvious but I don’t think it was obvious for other people. C!Techno doesn’t hate C!Tommy, he never has, never did (annoyed at most because he kept stealing his stuff but he could get over that). C!Techno has known that C!Tubbo exiled C!Tommy, and he was really upset about it. Power corrupts people, is his belief, and what better situation to see it other than this? And yet, C!Tommy went back to C!Tubbo and forgave him. C!Techno thought C!Tommy deserved better than to forgive C!Tubbo. Now, I’m not saying C!Tommy is in the wrong. I just know very well that a large part of this fandom sees things from C!Tommy’s point of view, so I’m explaining it from C!Techno’s POV. However, from C!Tommy’s POV, you can very much see how he viewed C!Techno. His POV is self-centric (more self-centric than others imo), so you think that C!Techno was in the wrong because C!Tommy made a decision he thought was right, and then C!Techno just got mad at him for seemingly no reason (there was a reason btw, as explained above).  C!Tommy tried to tell C!Techno that he could just leave them alone and be happy, but he doesn’t know how C!Techno felt when the butcher army sent for his execution. So he called him a tyrant, because he thinks C!Techno wants things his way and doesn’t have any compassion for the actual people who wanted to live in there. In the end, both C!Techno and C!Tommy ended up hurt. So, C!Tommy’s decision was reasonable. C!Techno’s decision was also reasonable. Well, who’s in the right now? Both of them! Both of them are in the right! Or neither! Maybe both of them are wrong! That’s the beauty of this SMP. All the decisions the characters make can be labeled as right decisions. They hurt people, even if they don’t want to, even if they don’t mean to. It’s relatable because it’s an accurate representation of the problems people encounter in real life. Most harm caused by people are unintentional, or if is intentional, they think it’s the only thing they can do or the right thing that they have to do.

So, with this in mind, enter C!Dream. No one ever knows his perspective, so c!dream enthusiasts/apologists try to empathize and understand his perspective the best way they can. You can’t understand his perspective without empathizing with him in some way (gentle reminder that empathy =/= sympathy). If you try and understand his point of view without using empathy, then you’re viewing him from an outside perspective. Which, again, is good for understanding events, but not good for understanding a character.  What most C!Dream enthusiasts do is that they try and view it from C!Dream’s point of view. He has a perspective, just not one that’s available to us.  Try to look at it this way: characters are like puzzle sets. Each action they do drops a piece of the puzzle. In other characters’ POVs, they drop pieces of them is very much clear and clean. But seeing it from another person’s POV, it is very dirty and tainted, making your view on that character different from what they actually are. C!Dream’s puzzle pieces are almost never clear. Upon dropping them, it’s at least a little tainted and at most covered with grime. Putting them all together, you get a very different view from what his character actually is. Empathizing with C!Dream makes the piece cleaner, and at least just a tad bit shinier, forming a better view on his character. Sometimes we can put the pieces in the wrong place, which causes this character to be woobified. So we go and interact with other people who have the same pieces, but whoops looks like some of the pieces are dirty. When brought the idea of giving C!Dream empathy, others think it won’t help, with their pieces remaining dirty.  Also, this doesn’t only apply to C!Dream, but to other characters as well. Remember to empathize with other characters if you are going to talk about them. If you have an available POV for that character, please do watch it. Don’t just go by with what you know from that specific person, because they might be an unreliable narrator. Anyway, with all that done, thank you for reading. I usually don’t step to apologism territory and I do usually encourage having different takes, but this has just been on my mind for a while, and I miss writing really long tumblr posts. So thank you for reading :D

[lyllicoris]

lets talk about the term "apologist" in the context of the dsmp fandom

let me explain. it's the same thing as the term "stans" case

stans originally means and is defined as "obsessive fans" or super fans in a negative light. stans are extreme fans going major lengths that are often disturbing to others.

BUT, as we all know, its not That Deep.

stans literally just mean super fans for a certain cc, show, celebrity, etc.

take another example: simp

"simp" originally means something derogatory or insulting but now its been normalized as a replacement for crushing on someone.

so what's my point here?

the term "apologist" doesn't mean someone excuses or justifies ALL of a certain fictional character's actions, good or bad. im just a tired of all this apologist discourse c!dream apologist has to go through over symphatizing a mc rp villain. being called "abuse apologists" over mc rp is (1) perfomative activism (2) and hurts victims of actual abuse and manipulation that likes c!dream or any other character.

so next time you mfers go after c!dream apologist or any other villain stan, dont bring in ur irl morals to judge their fictional preferences. you just look like an attention seeking asshole. its unnecessary.

[ruby-whistler]

Am I the only one annoyed by the overall attitude in this fandom and the way it's become normalized to invalidate other people's feelings about certain characters just because you don't feel the same way?

The fact that someone else feels a certain way about or is biased towards a character is fine.

It's none of your business!

Feel free to point out logical errors in people's analyses! Feel free to be critical of a character you don't like, and express your opinion! Feel free to be concerned about many people misinterpreting things!

But I feel like whenever someone says they like or dislike a fictional character from the Dream SMP, they are immediately expected to explain themselves and defend their stance, as if their feelings were any less valid because other people disagree with them. And you know what? I'm gonna say it.

You don't get to decide whether someone else's emotions are justified or not!

You can't even scroll through the character tags without them being filled with untagged hate towards a character you might relate to or like on a personal level; and to top it all off, people constantly make posts mocking people's "justification" or whatever for simply liking someone!

It's tiring, being expected to provide objective and rational indisputable evidence to be allowed by the fandom to like a character. It's also just extremely stupid.

You don't owe anyone an explanation, and no one owes you one! Of course, you can respectfully ask someone to talk about why they like a character if you're confused, I'm sure most fans would enjoy talking about them - but don't attack people because you think they're "wrong" for literally being emotional over a fictional storyline that is meant to induce emotions towards the characters?

Getting attached to the cast is a sign of something being well-written! Being sad about someone's mistreatment by others despite their bad actions is normal, it's called being empathetic!

None of us are the same, and so we're not all going to like the same characters, but don't invalidate other people's feelings because of it!

Apologist discourse wouldn't be so bad for people's mental health, hell, it probably wouldn't exist if people didn't feel forced to apologize for feeling a certain way in the first place!

c!Dream, c!Tommy, c!Sam- every single character on the SMP has had struggles and has been through a lot, and sometimes people may relate to those things! I do! Just because you don't, that doesn't make it ok for you to say that someone else isn't "right" in doing so.

Everyone is allowed to have opinions and discuss opinions. But I feel like apologists often forget the people who they're talking with have emotions and attachment towards their favourite characters.

And I think mocking that is not only hypocritical and stupid, but also extremely harmful?

You shouldn't have to feel like you're in the "wrong" for feeling the way you do just because you don't have "logical proof" that would make it "justified" in the eyes of the rest. I can't believe I have to say this, but here we are.

And not to speak on behalf of the CCs, but no author would want this to happen in their community!

Art and storylines are all about having emotions and opinions. People having strong feelings because of their story is the end goal of every writer! Someone might perceive the story differently, watch from a different perspective, or focus on different characters more for one reason or another, and that's just fine!

The fans of literally every character are absolutely valid in liking them. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, and DON'T INVALIDATE OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY DON'T HAVE SUFFICIENT "REASONS" IN YOUR EYES.

We're biased and that's alright! We're biased and that's how it should be! Spreading misinformation based on said bias is what is concerning and we should try to avoid, as well as being a prick to people who don't agree, but that doesn't make the bias itself wrong?

The Dream SMP fandom threads a very thin line between not wanting to understand the other side at all and then condemning them for opinions they don't even fully understand.

If you want to understand and to learn more about the SMP from different POVs, good on you! If you come onto someone's post expecting to change their opinions or simply to tell them how "wrong" they are in liking a character, piss off!

Just accept the fact that other people have different opinions about a Minecraft roleplay. And you- feel the way you want to, make art, make analyses, have fun with it, because it's entertainment and NO ONE gets to tell you you're wrong for enjoying it the way you do.