Feb 17, 2021
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What's your opinion on the Fëanorians? They're a contentious bunch in the fandom, so I'm interested what you think of them.
I don’t think I have an answer that will really satisfy you. I’m very torn when it comes to them. A lot of their fans have written really passionate defenses that made me a lot more sympathetic to their misfortunes and circumstances, but as much as I try, I cannot forget all the monstrosities they have committed. I can’t forget Alqualondë, I can’t forget Amrod burnt in the Burning of the Ships by his own father, I can’t forget the taking of Luthien, nor the Slaying of Doriath. I know, I know in my heart they had cause for what they’ve done. But the only thing I keep thinking of is what if it was me. What if I were an elf of Alqualondë or Doriath just living my life peacefully, and then suddenly my own kin came and killed me. Over what? A stupid jewel? No object on this earth ever excuses murder.
The Noldor really aren’t my cup of tea. I prefer my characters to be of the lawful and neutral kind rather than outright morally grey. I don’t dislike the Fëanorians, but neither do I like them. For me who usually has her mind in the Third Age, they just feel like long passed legends.
Your post about Arwen's life in Gondor being difficult made me so sad. Everything Tolkien wrote indicated she was happy there and that the people accepted Aragorn and her. They accepted their children as heirs after Aragorn passed.
I wrote that post after I got into asoiaf and honestly, I think that’s at fault. My mind got so enraptured in the way GRRM’s world works and how cruel its people can be to each other that when I came back to Tolkien that short essay is what I wrote. I think I was too harsh on the people of Gondor. Like you say, they accepted Aragorn, Arwen and their kids and their rule and were quite happy “the king” finally returned to rule. But still I can’t help but feel that not everyone was happy with the idea of Aragorn and Arwen as rulers. Even Tolkien in the unfinished LOTR sequel stated that not even 200 years after Aragorn died, some of the people of Gondor started a cult worshiping Sauron. I can’t help but interpret that, that even during Aragorn’s rule there must have been some voices, albeit quickly silenced that opposed his rule. As for Arwen, in my mind I have this never-ending debate with myself as to how elves are truly seen in Tolkien’s world. I can’t help but feel that what he wrote isn’t the whole truth. It just can’t be. That’s not how history works. That’s not how we as human beings work. Elves are supposed to be these near perfect beings, more beautiful, stronger, smarter than what any human could ever be. And instead of using these gifts to the betterment of all races, by the Third Age all elven communities live strictly in isolation. The people of Rohan call Galadriel “the White Witch” and have legends about her bewitching any of the Rohirrim who step into Lothlorien. That couldn’t have come from nowhere. I am sure if the elves or Lorien had a less isolationist policy and oriented more towards talking with their neighbors there would be something like “the Red Arrow” or The Beacons on the Mountains inbetween Rohan-Gondor, between Rohan-Lorien as well.
I truly hope from my heart that Arwen was happy as queen and felt fulfilled in her role. But she was queen of a massive kingdom. Her husband also campaigned very hard towards expansion to the east and south. If I was random Harradrim farmer or random Easterling merchant and the form of government my country had just fell, because it was conquered by a massive expanding kingdom, I too would be cautious about who rules that kingdom. But at the same time I guess both Rhun and Harad kinda allied with Sauron against Gondor so that’s that.
I guess from my whole blabbing around my point is that I interpret Tolkien’s world not as pure and fair as he makes it out to be, but not as grim and violent as GRRM’s. Somewhere in between both with good and bad. Of course people are free to disagree with my statement but I can’t help but feel that a world where a character like Grima Wormtongue exists, is a world where there is a chance that more people of similar alignment exist.
What are your favourite HCs regarding the Avari? I know you've got an Avari OC and I'm curious since I feel they're kind of overlooked in favour of the other Elves in canon.
I consider the Avari to be such an untapped source of meta and fanon. But happily, a lot of the gaps left empty by the narrative are filled in by MERP. In the case of my avari oc, I took MERP as a base and started building from there.
These are my humble thoughts but when I think about the Avari I can only imagine an elven culture completely opposite to that of the Noldor. The Avari never had the chance of seeing the light in Aman or have the Valar as mentors. Also since MERP places Avari geographically in the east and south of Middle Earth (in the Orocarni Mountains, east of Rhun and in the jungles south of Harad), I do very well expect that they do not share the same sentiments or behaviors as the Noldor.
One point I would like to make is their relationship to dwarves. The Avari had no Silmaril or Nauglamir, and they live far away from Beleriand, so them having a strained relationship with dwarves like the Noldor or Sindar do makes absolutely no sense to me. On the contrary, I think the Avari and the eastern clans of dwarves (Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots) must have quite excellent diplomatic ties. Diplomacy between an elven kingdom and a dwarven kingdom is not unheard of, since Eregion and Khazad-dum were practicing this, so I expect my theory to be fully applicable to canon.
I also do believe that the Avari must have good relation with their Nandor kindred as well, since they pretty much stem from the same branch. There must have been many Avarin messengers coming to Thranduil’s court bringing tides from the east. And probably to Lorien too before Galadriel became its Lady. I do imagine that hearing remotely about all the destruction and wars the Noldor brought upon Beleriand, would make the Avari extremely cautious when dealing with the Noldor.
The humans of Rhun are very much based on Mongolian people and/or a central and west Asian aesthetic. so I do believe it’s not out of the realm of possibility to develop the Avari with a more south and east Asian aesthetic.
I do hope I’ve answered your question.
Today I went to Rivendell
After grabbing breakfast in the Swiss town of Interlaken and a disappointing stop in Grindelwald, we decided to head to the valley of Lauterbrunnen. I had never heard of it, but the map said there were waterfalls which sounded pleasant enough. Lauterbrunnen itself turned out to be a beautiful quiet town. Houses on narrow roads crowded around the river which, cold and crystal blue, roared down from the mountains.Through the green valley, the glacial river tumbled over dark boulders throwing the water up in white spray. The valley was bounded on both sides by steep cliffs over which narrow waterfalls fell, turning to mist on the way down. We set off on a hiking trail to one of the waterfalls. After leaving the road that wound around high farm houses, the trail disappeared into the forested slopes.
Fortunately, along the winding trail, we missed our turn. Thoroughly lost but not yet knowing it, we climbed ever higher, until the green valley disappeared bellow and the white mountains came fully into view. Three, massive, glacier covered peaks sat silently over the mist. Looking up at those peaks, the tingling familiarity I had been feeling hit me like a blow. My heart ached because suddenly this place, the trail, the valley hidden below, that clear, tumbling river, and those mountains, I knew them. ‘Caradhras’ my mind whispered. I don’t think I was the only one. A voice called back asking me whether Tolkien actually ever used the term glacier.
The trail eventually leveled out and came out of the trees into high pastures of wildflowers. Thunder rumbled, and rain began to fall. By the time we made our way to the cable car/train station, the mountains were completely hidden in cloud.
All of the above are my photos from the hike. But let me show you a professional photo of Lauterbrunnen (source):
The path I hiked up was just where that main cliff tappers down of the the right past the edge of the photo. Here is Tolkien’s watercolor of Rivendell, and the path taken down into the valley in The Hobbit:
None of this is a coincidence. While on holiday in 1911, Tolkien himself walked from Interlaken to Lauterbrunnen, and the valley became his inspiration for Rivendell. Some of you linguistics nerds might have even noticed that the two names given to the river in Revendell, the Loudwater and Bruinen, sound an awful lot like Lauterbrunnen when put together. Like its fictional counterpart, the Weisse Lütschine flows down from the mountains. The three peaks; Eiger, Mönch and Jungfrau are, most viscerally, Celebdil, Fanuidhol, and Caradhras in all of their majesty. I didn’t know any of this until, walking down the main street later, I did a double take at the information building:
If you ever find yourself in Switzerland, visit Lauterbrunnen.
Do we know anything at all about Tolkien's Avarin languages; what they would sound like, how they'd name themselves etc? We read quite a bit of Sindarin and Quenya words, but I can't seem to recall a single mention of what tongue the Avari would speak?
I’m no Stephen Colbert or @askmiddlearth but to give my thoughts on this I’d like to start with the fact that the Avari themselves as elves are the least talked about or mentioned in all of Tolkien’s Legendarium. Which is quite a bit of shame since I find them absolutely fascinating.
In canon we are told that the Avari live far and wide throughout Arda and from my immediate memory I remember mentions of them living in the forests south of Harad, from where the Mumakil come, in the far east where the Orocarni mountains are, in Taur Romen and to the north of the Forochel Bay. But the last one is demi-canon since it comes from MERP. Also in Nan Elmoth during the First Age. But that’s a separate case altogether since Beleriand is long under the sea by the Third Age.
Since Tolkien was so fond of comparing Middle-earth to an early version of our own world and many of the people have attributes similar to real life cultures - such as the Rohirrim being Scandinavian and using runes, the Dunlending being Celts, the Easterlings being Mongolian, the Hobbits being 18th century England and so on. Based on the geographic locations of the Orocarni I would not rule out Avarin, or at least some dialects of it to be a Middle-earth equivalent of Arabic or Hindi. To my shame I am not familiar with the many languages spoken in Central or South Africa, so I cannot give my thoughts on how well it would translate to Harad Avarin. Wikipedia tells us that there are three branches of Avari, so I would definitely not rule out a more varied net of languages than can be used.
As a final note, Parf Edhellen an excellent dictionary for Tolkien languages gives us small clues for how Avarin may sound like or at least where it started from. I have searched for the word “night” and from all the results the closest I imagine Avari elves would use is the Primitive Elvish “dōmē“.
Hey, can we all just take a sec to talk about how much Tolkien was artistically influenced by Blake?? because I care about it a lot.
Okay so here are my two cents on the Amazon news. Anyone who has followed me for a while is probably aware of my general skepticism of film/TV adaptations of the Legendarium. We all know the old animated movies were lame and I personally think that the Hobbit movies were GOT pandering--CGI abominations. On the other hand, the Legendarium is a living body of myth. The Professor did say:
“I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.” -J.R.R Tolkien
Tolkien’s success in doing just that is evidenced by the fandom (though I hesitate to call it that). The quality of work, community, and dedication of Tolkien scholars, enthusiasts, artists, writers, etc. are unparalleled. This is what we do as fans, and ideally movies can also contribute to this ongoing subcreative act. I certainly think the New Line Cinema LotR trilogy did this with its beautiful sets and landscapes and music. The good thing about having a plethora of interpretations and adaptions is that you can take what you like and leave what you don’t. That being said, a TV series has more global popular impact than a fan film or music album.
Here are what I see as the three key risks:
1) They try to use stories and characters that they don’t have full rights to and botch them. I think it’s pretty obvious how this would play out. The best thing for them to do will be to stay squarely in the second age. There is lots of room for other minds and hands to work with the Last Alliance, for example. 2) Sex. I think this is something we are all worried about. The Legendarium is explicitly “High” in the sense that it’s purged of the gross. Now you can argue about why or what that means and you can write all the fanfiction you want, but a Legendarium adaption in any way lowering itself to Game of Thrones would be a real tragedy. It’s not about sex just like it’s not about resource economics. If you try to force reality on it, it doesn’t work. You have to let it stand on its own apart from all that. All I can say about this is if anyone knows anyone involved at Amazon, let them know that that’s NOT what we want. @amazon 3) Setting fan creativity back a few decades by forcing certain actors into roles that up until now have been ambiguous. This is personally my biggest worry. It has taken a long time for fan art of LotR to even begin to stop looking like the movies and it’s still no where near Silm art is or where LotR book illustration art was. The diversity and imagination of fandoms always take a hit when there are big, popular movies. But this is completely in our court. I see a lot of hope on this front from the Harry Potter fandom, which has done a lot of good work in moving past the movie castings etc. I do know that, given time, bad adaptions will just be noise.
We will survive. I am still rather concerned about the quality of whatever Amazon is plotting, but it might be okay. There is even a chance it will be good.