#askboxery

[eisforeidolon]

Robbie Thompson once revealed that after Jensen got the script for the 200th episode he flew to LA to talk with Robbie and Carver, which Robbie admitted he was worried he was gonna get fired. It's obvious what Jensen found issue with and wanted to be sure what the show was implying or not implying with the Destiel stuff.

Yeah. This is the thing. Unlike someone else who bends whichever way the wind blows, Jensen's stance has not changed from the time he became aware that the ship was a thing in fandom. The one time he questioned what the writers were doing by bringing it up in episode 200 among other things? He went straight to LA to confront them over it and came out of it reassured that it was about celebrating the fans and their creativity, not changing the canon to match anyone's fanfic [X][X]. Hell, that is spelled out pretty blatantly in the episode, beyond Jensen's fourth wall breaking look to camera. Not only does Dean say directly, "I have my version and you have yours" but D/C is included in the fan's self-written second act - along with robots and aliens and such.

When they aren't saying gross shit about forcing him, hellers often desperately want to present D/C as something Jensen has just not fully considered. If he would only just do that, obviously he would inevitably see it's real and in there!!! Except that's just not true.

Jensen is well aware it's a thing in fandom but that it was not something he put in or that was in the minds of the showrunners and writers he talked to. Even their queerbaiting hero Bobo the Assclown clearly put Dean couldn't reciprocate into his cringe-worthy script. Depending on how much credit he's attempting to take or evade, Misha admits half the time that it was never a thing on the table to even be seriously hinted at with the writers before Bobo presented the angel exit plan. Imagine being upset a storyline that doesn't exist ... doesn't exist.

Similarly, as much as they try to insist it's some inevitability that watching the show would make anyone ship it? Plenty of people have watched the show - a hell of a lot more of it than a lot of them who directly admit they didn't bother to tune in when Misha wasn't in it for therefore, you know, the majority of the show- and come away without ever seeing the ship as a thing. Not in small part, I suspect, because people who watched the whole show saw all the supposed D/C moments within the damning actual context and therefore did not attribute undue ~*significance*~ or ~*meaning*~ to them.

[eisforeidolon]

The frustrating thing about hellers (ONE of the many) is how they sexualize the most mundane and normal interactions between men and then scream at you for being too obtuse to notice the sexual tension. It’s exhausting trying to exist in fandom spaces when people will hunt you down with a stake if you don’t sexualize every look that passes between the chosen ship’s characters. It’s so regressive and hypocritical and truly homophobic. Dean misses Cas? That means they want to bone! Def not that he misses a friend that meant a lot to him. Dean looks in Cas’s direction while Dean looks handsome? Omg they’re in love! Not just… that he is looking at a friend that is literally speaking to him. Therein lies the proof this is fetish and not about representation. If you have to sexualize EVERYTHING that means that nothing romantic is actually there. Here’s what this really is. They wanted to sexualize Jensen as Dean- but they couldn’t do icky wincest because they’re morally superior- so in comes Cas the angel and BOOM! Ship that out toxics all other ships is born.

Absolutely. There are so many things to choose from in a competition of most frustrating, but that one is definitely on the list.

They really talk as if they've never interacted with another person before in their lives, let alone had a close friend - and then claim that's proof the ship is real. It is weird and creepy and, yes, it is more homophobic and toxic than anything they scream at the rest of the fandom for. At the end of the day, it makes it look like they genuinely believe a man can't care about or be invested in anyone but family members or a woman he is in/wants to be in a relationship with or its gay. But crucially, this only applies where they think the idea is hot.

Again, it'd be one thing if they were just doing this confined within fandom and fanon shipping for their own doll smushing purposes. Like, oh, I could totally see them in lurve in that scene where they were talking about the VotW because I want to read it that way. Sure, whatever. It's that they genuinely refuse to leave it at that and demand everyone else agree the random cherry picked nothingburgers they fixate on are PROOF. It can only mean sexual interest/romance because any and every interaction which isn't hostility (and most that are, too) is actually some inherent giveaway of homosexuality. How can Dean act like that and not want to be fucked by dudes? How can Jensen look like that and not want to be fucked by dudes?

That's ... really fucked up, actually!

[eisforeidolon]

what did jensen actually say (as in his actual words)? im seeing a lot of hellers freak iut everywhere but no actual quotes or videos

So I've been informed this convention has a no video policy, which is going to make it less likely for us to get recordings period, let alone complete recordings. We may still get some illicit ones, but we'll have to see what trickles in over the next few days.

At this point, the only source we have is one basically anon user posting a transcript of one particular question and a subsequent link to a soundcloud audio [X] that sounds legit and matches up to some of the heller whining.

[eisforeidolon]

Not to mention, Kripke was directly asked about Destiel and straight went LOL nope. Didn’t even cross his mind.

Right? Yeah, they are so fixated on their dumb ship as the center of the universe to the point they assume everyone else is, too, and it's just not true. Like, in SPN for starters, but even more so when it comes to a literal unconnected canon featuring the same actors (for a given value of "actor" in a certain case) in other roles. FFS.

Kripke not only talked about it solely because someone once again tried to make it a thing by bringing it up to him apropos of nothing but obsessed fans being fucking weirdos? But in answering, as others have notedt, Kripke pointedly referred to the D/C obsessives as an entirely separate, distinct category from SPN fans. We know Kripke is entirely aware of fanfic, so yeah, he knows it can often be wildly divorced from reality and the show, but it's fans having fun from his perspective (which is what it should be if they weren't so goddamn weird and cult-y and obsessed with the idea of someone forcing the actors to simulate it on screen for them). So totes keep doing what your doing if it keeps you tuning in, everything's up for interpretation, yadda yadda. That's the diplomatic showrunner answer. At the end of the day, when it comes to the actual canon and what was realistically ever going to happen? 'No, obviously nobody in the room even considered that nonsense.' [X]

[eisforeidolon]

TV shows have their set visual styles / looks. Directors coming in on SPN aren’t going through lighting set ups, outside maybe wanting more moody look / shadows in a scene. They aren’t coming in and saying “but then I-flag colors in the background of this scene.”

Serge was cinematographer on all but 8 episodes. He wasn’t sneaking “Dean is bi” subtext into the show with the lighting. He used shadows and darkness to convey the horror, and colors to convey mood / passage of time.

He’s a French Canadian and was like in his 60’s when the episode aired. He didn’t give two shits about “bi-lighting”.

Right. That's part of it, when you're considering whether the lighting has any significance beyond just allowing you to see shit on screen or setting a general mood? One of many things you need to consider is who is making the choices and in what context.

Assuming a sixty something cinematographer in a heterosexual marriage since 1990 was trying to signal bisexuality in Supernatural in 2013? When it doesn't seem to have even really been A Thing with even conspiracy shippers on tumblr before 2014 and definitely doesn't seem to have seen any kind of real use by creators prior to 2017 for signalling bisexuality [X]? When the combo of colors has had other associations?

There's an extent to which it obviously comes from the same place as their fanfic that depicts Dean and Castiel as edgy tweens - they really don't seem to be able to comprehend that their personal experience and frames of reference are not universal.

[eisforeidolon]

I’ve actually spoken to some SPN writers years ago, and can confirm, they don’t care about shippers or shipping. They are aware of the Destiel and Wincest of it all, and how fandom wank can misinterpret scenes and intentions. Unless it was a literal joke about Sam and Dean being like a married couple or sarcastically calling Dean and Cass boyfriends (which probably hasn’t been done since like S6). They weren’t thinking about any dumb shipping. Unless like I said, it was gonna be a punchline.

Even taking Castiel’s “testimonial” into account. It’s practically the same speech he gave in S12’s “Stuck in the Middle (With You)”, right down to saying how knowing the Winchesters changed him, and he loved them. And then the last two episodes completely ignore it, and Jensen having had control as a producer on an entire spin-off, never has Dean mention Cass even once.

What I’m basically saying is, Berens and Misha may have approached it as a romantic love confession. But that is not how the show played it.

Right. And obviously that's not verifiable, but it's in line with everything that both was consistently said publicly by most of the people associated with the show and with what the show actually chose to do.

Bob Singer said it straight out during a convention panel of the writers' room in general that the ship did not ever seriously enter into their conversations of what would happen in the plot. Jokes and teases were not meaningful plot clues/developments. He was lying for reasons/that did or was gonna totally change later!

Episodes or scenes they tried to insist were or were originally meant to be legit ship developments were directly shot down by the writers who wrote them when hellers tried to dig for a ship-validating answer - Perez about Tombstone, Thompson about Goodbye Stranger, for examples. No, no, they're lying/they didn't actually say that/they have to lie for contractual reasons to avoid spoliers/etc.!

Even among his five million different conflicting stories, in one of them Misha admitted that the inclusion of even something as vague as his monologue in Despair (such as it was) surprised him because it was so out of line with the writers' general stance on the characters and the ship. Like. Even the guy whose myriad lies they cherry pick has admitted it wasn't actually a thing among the writers generally on even numbered full moon Tuesdays. Misha's always joking or being bullied into saying stuff he doesn't mean, unless it's stuff they want to believe!

And yeah, for the five millionth time, at the end of the day? As you say, if they wanted it to be a canonically romantic scene? It wouldn't have directly aped the same thing as Stuck in the Middle (With You). Castiel would have said "in love" or otherwise clarified romantic love in the scene. Dean would have responded in some way (even negative) that defined what kind of "love" was being discussed. There would have been something somewhere story-wise leading up to it outside of shipper's fevered imaginations about eye blinks/lighting/set dressing/conflict=love story. Hell, it would have made literally any impact on the following story or at least been discussed if it was some real, genuine, intentional, explicit character development. It'll be a thing in the finale prequel revival, you wait and see!

It was intentionally ambiguous, an offhanded bone thrown to shippers who were never gonna be satisfied with anything but the whole skeleton. Yet somehow the only ones they almost never accuse of queerbaiting? Are Misha and Berens, who purposefully worked together to create that scene - making the language vague, including no reciprocation or even acknowledgement from Dean, knowing Castiel had no place in the rest of the show's (or Dean's) story - but fully aware shippers would read into it like crazy and go buy the ship merch Misha's company put out before the finale made a further joke of their disproportionate expectations.

There's always some reason that what they don't want to hear doesn't count. It's real and the writers were/are going to make it fully explicitly reciprocated canon, dammit! Because because!

[eisforeidolon]

I wouldn’t be shocked if they left that scene being done to Jensen, and the only reason he OK’d it was because Dean didn’t reciprocate and it was written with ambiguity (its basically the same speech Cass gave in “Stuck in the Middle (With Gou)”, complete with telling the Winchesters how much they changed him and he loved them).

Misha's story was basically that he and Berens conspired to concoct that nonsense and then presented it all but fait accompli to Jensen who didn't say no.

I agree with you because my feeling has always been that Jensen didn't object because:

1. It is pointedly about only the angel's feelings rather than Dean's. Between the script note which may have been put in explicitly for Jensen and Jensen's choice to just blank face in reaction, that scene is all character assassination of Castiel.

2. Even what is there for Castiel is pointedly left ambiguous and very similar to that previous dying ILY to all three Winchesters. Just because hellers think anyone talking about love has to be romantic if it's something they ship doesn't make it true.

Also 3. If he DID say no? Misha would have inevitably told the batshit contingent about something shippy being cut by Jensen, probably making it sound significantly more salacious than it ever was pitched to be, leaving Jensen inundated with a renewed deluge of wackjobs screaming about his quote unquote hOmoPHobiA!!! for who knows how long.

All things considered, why object and deal with harassment for it just to save Misha from turning Castiel into a punchline?

[eisforeidolon]

I remember the finale broke Natalie Fisher’s brain, so she wrote some BS article about how Supernatural was always a romantic love story between Dean and Cass. Delusional confirmation bias. It’s all they have.

It really is. It's both kind of fascinating and quite sad.

Like of all the things in the world to fixate on, to choose a ship only very vaguely based on a CW television show and act like getting said show to validate their fanfic as real is some genuinely important cause ... it's so weird.

There really is no there there, yet here we are, five years later and so many are still convinced if they just say it was real enough times on the internet, that makes it true.