Have you ever thought to yourself or any antis thought to themselves that it’s okay to like toxic ships in fiction?
Mashima never said a day in his life that his ships weren’t toxic and were healthy so idk why yall be so upset that people like these things?
Toxic ships in exist in fiction and real life. I love reading toxic relationships in fiction. I eat it up but I understand that’s not okay for real life.
If you truly want to see toxic relationships in fiction read Korean comics. They have some extremely toxic relationships in their stories and I love them all because it’s only fiction. It’s a reason why things like this exist because people like me exist to read it.
Is It Okay to Like Toxic Ships in Fiction?
Oh, this is a fantastic question, Anon.
I have never said that no one is allowed to like toxic ships in fiction. Ever. In fact, I've said the contrary, where, yeah, even I like some toxic ships (excluding things like p*doph*lia etc.) where people clearly aren't good for each other but it's an entertaining ship regardless as long as you know it is immoral in real life. If you know you'd never support certain toxic relationships in real life, but still like certain toxic characters together, there's not much harm to it.
My biggest issue with the Pro gr///via fandom?
It's that seemingly most of them deny that gr///via is a toxic ship in the first place. That, and some of them will attack anyone who says otherwise.
That's part of the reason why I've dedicated this blog to parsing gr///via's toxicity, to show why so many Antis have issues with it and because there are so many people who refuse to believe that gr///via is toxic in any way, shape, or form.
I've actually talked to Pros who acknowledge that gr///via is a toxic ship, but that they just like it for some reason or another, and I totally respect that because they realize it's a toxic ship. While I hate the "it's just fiction" argument because it's a dreadful slippery slope, all in all, gr///via really is just a fictional ship between two people of the same age.
You say Mashima has never said his ships were healthy, but that doesn't matter, and that's never been an argument that I've made, that Mashima said he'd make healthy ships (which of course he didn't). Most authors don't go around explicitly saying that anyway, so that's another reason why that is a straw man argument.
However, another part of my issue with gr///via is that it's a canon ship, one that Mashima pushes heavily, and it is portrayed as something to be desired.
There are plenty of toxic ships people make up on their own, fanon, where the author never intended for it to be a thing, in which case it's the fans' fault for making up such a thing, but the fact that the author of FT makes juvia a complete scumbag but makes it so that she ultimately gets the object of her desires teaches the very wrong lesson. He also tries to make her pass as a "good person", having everyone love her and cheer her on no matter what she does to them.
If you make a character do very toxic things, but also make them appear good to other people in the show and make it so they never face any consequences for their actions (the worst consequence juvia ever gets from her sick behavior is some sweatdrops from other characters, but no one ever stops her and many in fact encourage her), readers/viewers might get the impression that that character really is a good person, and that their actions should be emulated to get their desired results. Mashima has even apparently said in an interview that Gray is somewhat of a self-insert, so the fact that he gave Gray juvia as his love interest says a lot about what Mashima desires or fetishizes.
"If you truly want to see toxic relationships in fiction read Korean comics."
I have, and that has nothing to do with this conversation. "If I truly want to see toxic relationships", all I have to do is watch Fairy Tail and suffer through every gr///via/juvia scene.
The jealous j*v*a gag was never funny but girl really got jealous over a CAT and Gray dancing for fun with his child teammate. Do people really find this endearing? funny? She makes every interaction Gray has into something gross. Don't get me wrong it isn't funny when she does it with Lucy either (this is an extremely toxic relationship and I don't like to see it portrayed as cute or funny), but her acting like he's into Frosch or Wendy disgusts me (idk if it makes sense haha)
juvia Believes in the Worst of Gray, and she Couldn't Care Less
Oh, you make perfect sense to me, Anon, and you make such a good, damning point against juvia.
I love how you phrase it because it's just so accurate:
"she makes every interaction Gray has into something gross".
The fact that in juvia's mind, Gray could be a p*dophile or someone who practices b*stiality, is just beyond disturbing, for multiple reasons.
A, if she really thinks Gray is capable of those things, and still "loves" him, then what does that make her? Someone who supports those things too. Jail. Jail right now.
B, despite thinking those things about Gray, there's no acknowledgement from juvia that that's so very wrong, there's just, as you say, jealousy. Instead of putrid disgust, juvia feels jealous over a child and a cat. That's revolting, immoral, and just downright pathetic.
C, it just shows how juvia does not know Gray at all, what his values are, whom he loves, what kind of a person he is. And nor does she care. And yet this is the woman we're supposed to want to be with him. Right. That checks out.
D, what's more, Gray can do no wrong in her eyes (clearly), so if Gray likes Wendy or Frosch, guess what, it's not Gray who's the problem here- it's the child and the animal. They're her love rivals, they're whom she must conquer in a battle of love. The two who would be victims to Gray if this deluded insanity juvia believed about him was true are the very ones juvia points her gnarled finger at and declares war on. (Hypothetical) Victim-blaming/abuse at its finest.
You're right, Anon, that this jealous gag isn't funny even when inflicted on women of Gray's age and species. It's just uncomfortable, cringe, toxic, malicious, and sad. But it's infinitely more despicable when juvia's delusions and fantasies paint such a horrid picture of Gray and those around him, where his morals are misrepresented, his reputation tarnished, where such evil, perverse things are presented as if we're supposed to laugh at it.
This point doesn't get talked about enough (by myself included), but it truly is one of the most damning pieces of evidence of why juvia is a loathsome, detestable human being, and why she should never be with Gray.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me, Anon! This is truly a very important point to be made, and I am very grateful to you that this could be addressed very carefully on my blog.
why do gr*via shippers always say that us graylu shippers always ship nali out of spite when they litterally ship n*lu out of spite????? Like, i'm not a nali shipper (i personally ship bixanna) but it's infinity times waaaaayyyy better than gr*via
Honestly, I haven't really heard of the spite shipping argument before, but I've been absent for a while off of Tumblr and all things gr///via for a few good months, so maybe I just missed something!
I can definitely see gr///vians shipping Lucy with Natsu just to keep Lucy away from Gray though, which is a big eyeroll. People should ship characters together because they like them together, not to make sure other they don't compete with a different ship lol; they're not real people, there's just no need.
I don't ship NaLi personally. I'm not a Lisanna fan, I find her to be sort of annoying, but I don't really hate her anymore.
Need all my ire for juvia!
Kidding (sort of) aside, NaLi is still much, much healthier than gr///via, like most normal ships in Fairy Tail. Lisanna may be annoying to me, but she's still a kind person, something juvia isn’t and cannot be.
Anyway, thank you for the ask, Anon! Sorry to take so long! And Bixanna sounds like a fun ship!
Genuine question - do you dislike the gruvia ship to the point where say hypothetically if she were to get major development in the future you’d still hate it ? Would you be neutral to it ? Or do you think her character is irredeemable to the point of no return ?
Is gr///via Truly Irredeemable?
First of all, sorry for the extended hiatus!
Second of all, that's a fantastic question!
I actually have a similar post where I talk about something like this, where the question essentially was "how would you write juvia's character in a way that you would actually like?"
It's a pretty short post so I recommend checking that out too, but as for your question:
Hypothetically, and I mean very hypothetically, juvia could redeem herself as a character (but that would require loads and loads of sincere apologies and repentance and trying to make things right by people, which we all know juvia is too selfish to do), but even still, it would not be good enough to the point where gr///via would be healthy.
You can think about it this way.
Let's say a guy sexually harasses this girl, stalks her, creates merch of this girl to get himself off to, inflicts damaging emotional manipulation on her mind, ignores her consent and discomfort, makes something as deep as her father's death all about himself instead of her grief, and cusses out any guy who gets close to her, essentially trying to isolate her from any of her close guy friends.
Now switch out guy with juvia and girl with Gray. (Switching genders tends to help put the immense toxicity of this ship into perspective for people, which is unfortunate, but it's how our society operates right now.)
Even if this "guy" would be able to apologize and mend his ways, the damage has been done. The trust has been broken. Trauma has been inflicted.
That bell cannot be unrung.
So, while I'm all for forgiveness, I do not believe that forgiveness means a second chance at having a relationship with someone who has literally abused you. They had their chance, and they blew it and you up.
Just think of a different scenario of a toxic relationship. What if the guy had cheated on this girl before? Even if he genuinely feels bad and apologizes, how can you trust him to not cheat again? Why did he ever think it was okay to cheat in the first place?
You could ask those same questions of juvia.
So, to answer your question, I would still hate it even if juvia repented. she doesn't get to abuse and hurt and manipulate and come out on top with Gray remaining in her clutches. Any good their relationship could have been is merely fruit from a poisonous tree- poisoned by juvia's past abuse.
See, even if Gray were to stay with her after she admitted to her wrongdoings, who's to say that he isn't too far gone, too deceived, too Stockholm Syndromed, to know what's best for him, aka running from that "relationship" as fast as he possible could? He might not even believe her that she'd done anything wrong.
So, if juvia really and truly regretted what she did to Gray, then she would let Gray go and not try to keep her claws in his heart. Therefore, there would be no gr///via in the world where juvia is redeemed as a character.
Anyway, thank you so much for your ask and your patience! It was a really fun question to answer!
being a Graylu shipper am i the only one that doesn't like the idea of Lucy or anyone else being a Gruvia Shipper?
About Fairy Tail members being either complicit or enablers of juvia abusing Gray
You're definitely not alone, my friend! I personally am a Gralu shipper, but I don't necessarily agree just because of that.
I've said it in a post before, but I became an Anti gr///vian first and a Gralu shipper second. I totally understand people who don't like a certain ship just because they ship those individuals with other people, and I think that's a perfectly valid reason to hate a ship, as we can hate ships for mostly any reason. So, yes, being a Gralu shipper gives me another reason to not like it if Lucy were to ship gr///via because that basically just reconfirms that they don't like each other.
However, for me personally, I hate it whenever Lucy (whom I don't remember supporting gr///via very much if at all, but she definitely didn't actively oppose it to the best of my knowledge), Erza, or anyone in Fairy Tail/the FT universe supports gr///via mostly because that makes them, at best, complicit in juvia's abuse of Gray, and, at worst, enablers of this abuse.
I refuse to believe that manipulative and toxic affection was the true moral of Mashima's Fairy Tail, even if his characters actively advocate for it. I think he lost sight somewhere along the line of what it truly means to be a Fairy Tail member, and that means to be a loyal, compassionate, brave friend who always looks out for each other and love one another. juvia is none of those things, not even loyal to Gray, because what she does is a detriment to him, and she's really just loyal to herself and her "love" for him. Yet, Mashima promotes her behavior by giving her what she so desperately coveted in the end and by forcing his characters to be completely OOC and back up juvia, the slobbering, nasty, selfish pig, and not their loving, stalwart brother-in-arms and victim here, Gray.
That is despicable.
What's more, beyond how awful it is that FT people would rather back juvia than Gray, it's just bad, lazy writing. In no world would juvia be able to abuse other people and manipulate them and bully women and yet also be praised and protected and loved by those same people. Erza should have never sided with juvia over the 413 days matter or berated Gray for "not being clear enough" when he's been plenty clear. The other FT members shouldn't have ever blasted Gray for "leading juvia on". No one should even like juvia or want to be her friend because of what a b*tch she is.
Yet of course, everyone loves her for NO REASON. There are so many reasons to hate her (and honestly not one good reason to love her in my opinion), but does Mashima care? Absolutely not. juvia is his self-proclaimed self-insert's waifu, after all.
Anyway, true FT fans should be enraged that juvia lockser is one of the main people we are encouraged to be like in this show. They should be indignant that juvia has been made a poster child for this anime, when she embodies none of its values. They should refuse to accept this as healthy and desirable. They should balk at the fact that their beloved characters endorse juvia's actions and life choices, which are wholly unacceptable and unhealthy not only to herself but most importantly to others.
But lots of fans delude themselves, and the fans drive Mashima, so unfortunately, here we are, with a whole cast of characters who promote and affirm juvia, the least deserving of the Fairy Tail members.
For the record, I am not really talking about the fans who acknowledge juvia's toxicity but still like her and the ship because of a sort of suspension of disbelief. Honestly, there are many problematic or evil characters that many people like, and I usually see no problem with it if you are able to separate your fictional fantasies with reality. (Some deeply problematic things I do not excuse though). For example, I like Sukuna from JJK. Do I think he's a good person? Aaaaabsolutely not. He's a completely awful person. But still, I think he's cool and his power is sick, so I like him.
My issue lies within the area of the FT community who refuse to accept that juvia's behavior is deplorable and who attack anyone who tells them otherwise. These are the rabid fans who'd go for Mashima's throat if he dared to not make gr///via canon. I don't believe the fans who know juvia is a bad person but still ship gr///via would be so up in arms about it because this sort of self-awareness indicates maturity to me.
[Sidenote, the really aggravating and only thing that sets juvia apart from the characters who are literal villains and douches is that juvia isn't treated like a bad guy within the story. Sans some uncomfortable stares and sweat drops, she is largely treated like family, and everyone loves her. When even the canon material itself won't acknowledge a character's toxicity and awfulness to itself, of course there'll be people who don't think she's toxic. I hate that Fairy Tail lies to itself in this way. It just helps to turn the deluded fans against well-meaning Antis who speak literal objective truth, that the way juvia acts is not okay in real life.]
Anyway, those are my two cents, thank you for your patience and ask!
I wish Juvia never existed, she's so creepy , ever since I saw her as a child I couldn't help but hate her especially in the scenes with Gray though with the continuation of the series I started to become indifferent towards her except during the scenes where she harassed Gray and even cried a little bit at her death but I have been away from the fandom for 5 years because I couldn't like ft anymore, I was really nostalgic though and heavily missing ft so I wanted to start it from the beginning but I don't know if I can anymore . I came to know that Gray has lost all personality in 100 years quest and becomes mushy for Juvia just at the mention of her name. I can't watch or read a series only to know that a character I loved has gone through "utter character assassination" . What's more insufferable is that during the ending of ft when I read it 5 years ago I myself couldn't see Gray with anyone but Juvia no matter how much I hated this pairing , Mashima forced this pairing so much that now I feel like I have no choice but to ship them, but this much of annihilation of Gray , I just can't take it anymore.
When Mashima already killed Juvia , there was no need to revive her , her death was heartwrenching for the kid me during that time even though I never liked her but his revival of all the dead characters ruined the series for me. Natsu and Gray's fight was also utterly ridiculous. And there were a whole lot of reasons.
Atleast Gray would have been single and hadn't gotten his brain been made into a mush or would have ended up with another character and honestly Gray can be shipped with so many characters whether male or female in the series, his dynamics were so interesting with so many characters but ,no, Mashima had to force him with Juvia out of all the characters.
If Juvia was an ugly character or a male character nobody would have shipped her with Gray , just because she's attractive she is shipped with him even though she is literally a stalker who sexually harasses him physically and mentally all the time. She treats him as an object of her perverted desires rather than a human being. She's obsessed with him and not in love with him. If she loved him even a little or even cared she wouldn't have crossed his boundaries all the time and neither would she have been so jealous of other characters having healthy interactions with him. I honestly think that if she never existed atleast Gray's life would have been a lot happier. Atleast after suffering so much , Gray deserved to be happy instead of being with his creepy stalker.
Ft is only successful because of fanservice now atleast in the beginning the series was actually good, the series has given me so many great memories only for them to get muddied because of the direction this series took.
Your blog is a breath of fresh air , really good work!!
Miscellaneous Thoughts on gr///via
First of all, thank you so much for your patience! I'm sorry it's taken so long to get to your ask!
And secondly, I love how much effort you put into your ask! Honestly, my thoughts aren't even needed here; you really hit so many good points about gr///via. And thank you for sharing your experiences with FT with me. I agree with practically everything you said!
Despite this, as always, I'll run my mouth down below.
I was the same as you, Anon, where I hated her immediately when she met Gray when I was a kid first watching FT. I'm glad you could also tell how awful her character so soon as well. I personally never became indifferent to her and dreaded seeing her whenever she was onscreen, since even the super rare parts of the anime where she supposedly isn't thinking about Gray are still tainted by her mean-spiritedness and disingenuousness.
I also never fully read or watched juvia's death because I dropped the very end of the series thanks to gr///via and it just not being very good or intriguing, so I can't say I've cried at her death, but I think that shows how compassionate you are if you felt sad for such a disgusting individual! I've seen panels and I've heard what happened, and it is absolutely awful. The whole fight is shoehorned in just to ship gr///via and guilt-trip Gray into taking juvia's completely insane and gross advances seriously for once, when literally any of his other guildmates would have killed themselves for him too and have tried to before, and he'd never fall in love with them, but nooo gr///via must be forced down our throats to appease the fans and fulfill Mashima's weird fantasy.
As for nostalgia, I totally get you, because after a while I always find myself drifting back to rewatch it eventually. I used to watch every scene with her in it, but on my last watch-through, I basically skipped most of her scenes. That's how I survived it, Anon, so maybe you could try the same! Though, I feel like for my next watch-through, I'll sort of have to watch her scenes and make something like a mega masterlist of how she sucks every time she's on screen lol. That sounds so painful but perhaps that's a necessary project for my blog.
I so agree with you, Anon, that I can't bear to see Gray's character assassination in 100yq, which is why a very kind Anon created a masterlist of every gr///via moment so I could read it and avoid gr///via entirely. I'll link it right here for you if you ever desire to take a gander at the admittedly apparently terrible 100yq except for Lucy's new empowerment.
I agree that juvia should've stayed dead as well. Besides me just hating her and wanting her to be gone from Gray forever, her death (and the other characters who died for that matter) really should've never been revived because it just cheapens the sacrifice they made from a story standpoint. For juvia at least, it's like "oh well i didn't lose anything in the end but now i seem like a good person! Woopdidoo". Plus, it just makes none of their deaths have any real impact. It was just for shock factor, and we all know that Mashima really doesn't like to make lasting changes. He did the same thing all the way back in the Edolas arc when he made it so that Lisanna never died, which was a terrible decision. @perfectlyimperfectcharacterfan actually gave a much better suggestion, where Lisanna actually died and the Lisanna in Edolas was in fact Edolas Lisanna, and then Natsu would get to talk with her and learn to let her go and heal. Honestly gives me goosebumps just to think about it; it's so much more mature and moving than pulling a psych on everyone.
Gray being single would've been so much better than this gr///via garbage, Anon, you're so right! Even as an avid GraLu shipper myself, I would be perfectly fine with shipping them without it being canon (as I am now), but nooo, now I have to do my best to blot such an ugly, toxic ship out of my mind.
I really have nothing to say about your 4th paragraph because I hold those opinions completely. I call out the double standard of how people treat juvia's behavior all the time, and she definitely has "pretty privilege", though personally I do not find her pretty. Gray is an object for her to obtain indeed, and I concur, he would've been infinitely happier without juvia.
And yeah, I agree that unfortunately Fairy Tail has fallen off in terms of quality hard, with the criminal pushing of gr///via going off the rails in 100yq and the lack of good story telling in general. Even the end of the main story was unravelling. Sometimes, Mashima, it's better to end and preserve your legacy. Right now, you're beating a dead horse.
Thank you so much for your kind words! So sorry I took so long to get to your ask: it was a delight to read and so very insightful!
Am I the only one that wants Gray and Lucy to kill juvia and finally end her existence?
I definitely wish juvia had stayed dead.
Oh, how I wish it!
But Gray and Lucy are too kind-hearted to ever kill a fellow Fairy Tail member, even if she deserves everlasting punishment for what she's done to Gray and any female within Gray's vicinity. They'd never do such a thing.
However, if a villain (who would really be doing us all a favor) happened to end juvia's existence (again), I would be eternally grateful!
