#astarion discourse

[luna-lamia]

"talking him out of ascending is violating his consent"

So now we're infantilizing him? As early as right after Araj he reaches a point he's comfortable telling you to fuck off. Then if you fail the persuasion check he also tells you to fuck off and leaves the party. Mind you, talking him out of it he gives approval and he thanks you after. He does neither of those things if he ascends.

Fuck out of here.

I'm an aa enjoyer too but yall are fucking pathetic.

[luna-lamia]

ftr

In case it's unclear, I do love AA. I prefer AA. But I don't prefer him "the right way" according to some, because I'm at peace with what he is in the canon, and I don't need my personal preferences to be reflected in canon to enjoy him. I also don't need other people to share them.

If you need other people to button their lips in order to enjoy a thing, that is a you problem.

[bananasfosterparent]

But the Ascendant IS written as a villain, as it's clearly pointed to by the authors. Like it's not even a discussion at this point in terms of canon. Every character has their "bad" and "good" endings, I don't think there's a way to avoid ascendant to be interpreted and portrayed that way

Yes. Ascended Astarion is a villain. That is why my Tav (and the Tavs/Durges of most other AA fans) romancing him is a POS and they do evil/morally questionable things together. That's the fun of it. Getting to be the baddies that get away with murder is a fun fantasy to explore and despite popular assumption, you don't have to "justify" it with any gotcha or moment of consequence for the characters because it's all in good fun and not real life.

That said, even (especially?) in a video game like this, "evil" ≠ "bad" and "morally kind" ≠ "good". At least, not inherently. You're looking at this game black and white without any form of nuance if you just see one "good" ending and one "bad" ending for him (or for any companion). There is a lot of bittersweet in the endings for each character. Some endings are more bitter than sweet, some are more sweet than bitter. But it all really depends and hinges on what your roleplay is in that playthrough. What feels like a sugary sweet good ending for one of your Tavs, might be a pure bitter nightmare for someone else's. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Edit to add::

I just realized this might be a response to my post about my fears toward the BG3 TV show and how, if Astarion appears they may portray him as a villain. If THAT'S what you're talking about, I'm sorry for the confusion. What I meant was, I'm afraid they will not treat him as a villain in a fun "let the baddies win" kind of way. I'm afraid they will treat him as an obstacle to be taken down and defeated by the main characters. To the point, us as the views are "supposed" to be against him too. That would be such a disservice to Astarion as a character overall. I just fear they will oversimplify him as "the villain". That is all lol

[corgiteatime]

Me, every time I see the same three discourse topics about Astarion:

[bananasfosterparent]

Like most, I'm not super excited about the new BG3 related TV show. I know we know next to nothing about it, but just the concept of having a TV show about it at all is not great.

While I love delving into more media about the origin characters, setting the TV show AFTER the game events is the worst idea IMHO. The game is so personal to each individual player and their characters, and the TV show will have to set a specific "canon" for itself.

I mean, that's conceptually not that big of an issue, if the fandom as a whole could see it as the game universe vs the cinematic universe (the way people look at Marvel and DC stuff) but knowing this fandom, I know that won't be the case.

I have to admit, a lot of my fear is grounded in what they'll do with Astarion, if he appears. If they choose to keep him a spawn I doubt it will be treated as a "it's just canon for the TV show" situation and I feel like people will use it to say "See! Spawn is his true self and true canon ending!"

But if they choose to have him Ascended in the show, I fear they will treat him as a villain and he will just be some obstacle or something for the heroes. Idk maybe I'm just being paranoid and making up problems in my head that wouldn't actually be an issue.

Maybe I'm just cynical lmao

Maybe the fandom is actually mature and respectful enough to keep game and TV show canon separate, no matter what they choose for the show.

Maybe the show will get cancelled and we won't have to worry about any of that 🫣

[ikilledgods]

To the BG3 community, specifically to the Astarion fanbase, we need to come up with a new shorthand for Spawn Astarion.

I saw a youtube comment the other day that started with "I'm a fan of SA, but" and i was completely jumpscared until I realized what they meant.

So, yeah. New shorthand please.

[mrhrns]

Just remembered a few things that were flooding my mind for quite some time.

I never actually understood of why people were so surprised and taken aback of Ascended Astarion not accepting his partner fully transformed into illithid. Like... were everybody really expecting him, now being free from fearing opinions of other surrounding him and their judgement, to accept the very thing he despised from the very beginning, even before Ascending? There were so many times said personally by himself throughout the game that he hates mind flayers, he *isn't* a fan of tendrils, he sees them as monsters and has no desire to become one himself (of course, only Minthara out of all group eagerly accepts the astral tadpoles and dgaf, but the way Astarion tried to defend himself that he doesn't want to do something against his own will once more... I will never even look at that persuasion option in answer to make him change his mind).

Consider it more of my personal opinion, as always, or even my projection, but when I see spawn Astarion behaving right the opposite way, accepting illithid MC... I had been in toxic relationship where I had to accept the person's look just to stay together with them, fearing I will be left alone if I wouldn't. I can't view this as anything happy or even healthy. Of course, if I had therapy I could maybe have seen a different angle to it... But not now, obviously. (upd: my memory has twisted things a bit and it's better in game, skipping that part of my text wall.)

I don't think that this, however, has any real life associations, because it's not about something like losing your limb, your face, your mind etc, it's about turning into entirely different kind of creature, which is fantasy-only case. And seeing AA getting blamed as abuser for all of that is wild, as always.

Perhaps people stick to that "will you still love me if I was a worm (in this case, a squid)" too much, I don't know. AA definitely won't, not in the same way as before; nevertheless he still saves the connection between himself and MC. And I don't see a problem here. He doesn't have to pretend and he has all the freedom to say "no".

[romantic-bloodless-nights]

Regarding the Anti-AA stuff, and I'm going to be blunt:

If fans of Astarion have to admit that he's toxic, manipulative, blah, blah, blah, then anyone who pushes for people to acknowledge it must acknowledge that they are control freaks who have nothing better to do with their time.

Seriously, you claim to be an Astarion fan, but you're here arguing with people about what they are doing with fantasy and their PERSONAL interpretations? In a medium with multiple endings and dialogue and allows you some freedom in how you play your character? You can't "debunk misinformation" with your perspective or interpretation. We are already fighting misinformation in reality, don't bring that in over a damn video game.

There's absolutely nothing else you'd rather be doing with that time? Like... playing another run-through or being creative with him and your Tav? Oogling the spicy scenes with the vampire? Nothing at all comes to mind?

Agree to disagree with your interpretations and move along. It literally doesn't matter if you disagree. If you can't do that, you deserve to be blocked for wasting others' creative energy while defending themselves from this BS. (that being said, don't interact with people looking to distract you from more important things, guys. Astarion needs your full attention or he gets cranky)

Also, you can't go, "I'm all for fans liking AA/support AA fans BUUUUT," and try to invalidate them with some BS excuse. You either support them or you don't. Anything you're "tired of seeing" stems from personal interpretations and headcanons that don't include you. It isn't for you. It's for them. It's their escapism and trying to use reality to excuse your criticism of that is ridiculous. It's why I refer to anyone who "shows concern" for fans who are delving into escapism while not knowing them personally as "Helen Lovejoys." Trying to use "concern" as a keyword toward people who are trying to distract themselves from the shit going on in reality is pretty shitty.