#athenaeus

[katerinaaqu]

Did Argynnus of Boetia and Agamemnon of Mycenae have a healthy relationship? Or am I making up that fact. Also where can I read anything about Argynnus?

Once again...it depends on the source! Hahaha there are only a handful of sources mentioning Argynnus (of much later years in fact) and even one or two of them barely mention the relationship as anything else but the typical erastes-eromenos which could even be seen from the social perspective however given that the generally accepted solution is to interpret the rites of passage with the sexual meaning too, is hard to tell if the relationship goes both ways or if it is a one-way thing

Anyways most of the mentions of Argynnus come from post-Augustean times which also has its cultural meaning plus of course the hint of the legend existing in Alexandrian times too.

Stephanus of Byzantium for instance in 6th century AD in his "Ethica" barely calls Argynnus: ἐρώμενος Ἀγαμέμνονος (eromenos/lover of Agamemnon). It doesn't mention either side's feelings over such relationship but we can assume it was consensual or at least not dysfunctional

Clement of Alexandria in the late-2nd century AD, in his work "Exhortations" he quotes the older poet Phanocles (an elegian poet probably of the Alexandrian times) who mentions in a work Clemens calls "Loves or On Fair Youths" that Argynnus was the favorite of Agamemnon and that "Agamemnon loved him" or rather that again Agrynnus was his eromenos (Ἀργύννιω τω ἐρωμένω) or simply that "he desired him" and that he dedicated a temple to him or rather to Aphrodite and gave her Argynnus's name as an epithet (ironically the same source claims that there is a temple of Zeus Agememnon haha but I shall comment on that in a little)

Athenaeus and his Deipnosophists in 3rd century AD mentions the tragic story of Argynnus drowning in the river Cephesus. Athenaeus mentions that Agamemnon fell for Argynnus when he saw him bathing in that said river and that Argynnus died in an accident after one of his many times he bathed. That left Agamemnon devastated

The elegian poet Propertius mentions in his 3rd book 7th poem that the fleet could not sail from Aulis because Agamemnon was devastated by the death of Agrynnus leading to the sacrifice of Iphigenia as a delay (Agamemnonias testantia litova curas, qua notat Argynni poena Mimantis aquas. hoc iuvene amisso classem non solvit Atrides, pro qua mactata est Ipliigenia mora) Now that version is both bizarre but also interesting twist to the usual myth of Agamemnon's hubris with the deer. It seems that the elegy tries to symbolize this grief as so distracting that even a powerful leader like Agamemnon would leave his duty (like...is Propertius trying to present Agamemnon as Achilles or what?! Hahaha) once again the emotions of Agrynnus are rather kept aside

I will make the full on commentary later but these sources do not mention the union between Argynnus and Agamemnon as bad. Argynnus's feelings are not commented but the relationship is depicted through the lenses of the custom of pederasty of mature antiquity and sometimes it includes Agamemnon's apparent intense feelings for him. But overall the texts seem positive on the mutual relationship

Except for one...

Plutarch of course had to add a different thing to the streak hahaha in his work "Beasts are Rational" (Περὶ τοῦ τὰ ἄλογα λόγῳ χρῆσθαι) he added the story of Agrynnus and Agamemnon to a series of stories of men pursuing unwilling youths and one of them was of course this. According to Plutarch Agamemnon basically combed the entire area of Boetia but Agrynnus didn't want him at all. In fact the source goes as such

ὁ δ´ Ἀγαμέμνων τὴν Βοιωτίαν ἐπῆλθε κυνηγετῶν τὸν Ἄργυννον ὑποφεύγοντα καὶ καταψευδόμενος τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ τῶν πνευμάτων, εἶτα καλὸν καλῶς ἑαυτὸν βαπτίζων εἰς τὴν Κωπαΐδα λίμνην, ὡς αὐτόθι κατασβέσων τὸν ἔρωτα καὶ τῆς ἐπιθυμίας ἀπαλλαξόμενος· However Agamemnon after searching all over Boetia for Argynnus who was fleeing from him. After wrongly accusing the sea and the winds, because he was moral of nature, he acted correctly when he decided to jump into the waters of lake Copais so that he would put himself out and get rid of his erotic desire

(Translation by me)

So Plutarch seems to give us a different story here. It doesn't show any relationship at all but rather that Agamemnon was taken over by strong desire to the point of searching Boetia to find Argynnus who was rejecting him. Eventually Agamemnon seems to....give himself a cold shower to come back to his senses hahaha

So Plutarch seems to give us a totally negative reaction by Argynnus (literally running away from Agamemnon - Ἄργυννον ὑποφεύγοντα) but also Agamemnon catching up with his behavior and eventually stopping his pursue and trying to heal himself (αὐτόθι κατασβέσων τὸν ἔρωτα)

So to conclude this; The whole Argynnus business seems to be a later invention or addition to the myths, if anything some of the earliest examples we have so far from indirect sources being of Alexandrian times on and the story seems to be heavily inspired by Zeus and Ganymedes or stories involving Heracles. Knowing that already in Homer there is the tendency of people comparing Agamemnon side by side with the king of Gods (one who made that comparison was Thetis for example to persuade Zeus to honor her son) I find it normal that some thematic from Zeus's overall lore would find itself within the stories involving Agamemnon In fact Clement seems to even hint that Agamemnon was worshiped alongside with Zeus at some essence or something of the sort (I will need to look it up deeper on Agamemnon's heroic cult) which does seem to confirm this hypothesis Now for most part Agamemnon is not abusive. On the contrary either we speak on a relationship in essence of rite of passage between a youth and an older man or a relationship of erotic nature. Usually Agamemnon's feelings are the ones to be seen but the text doesn't imply that Argynnus was being forced or unhappy and many times over we see that his death was an accident and that it was devastating for Agamemnon Plutarch seems to mention Argynnus being unwilling and that Agamemnon was very persistent to continue his pursue but eventually Agamemnon realizes that he was acting no different than a beast so he stopped immediately and dips himself in the lake Copais so that he will come back to his senses with its cold water after having a small streak of...blaming the elements for his unfulfilled desire XD

Overall no I wouldn't say you make it up. In fact I think we shouldn't immediately assume that the average relationship in Greek myth in general and in regards to Agamemnon in particular is necessarily a monstrous man that forces others do stuff. Now do you call that "healthy"? For modern standards that is hard to define but yes I would say that if you take it that they are in a relationship that it was not a forced one. Even in Plutarch it is assumed that Agamemnon didn't force Argynnus after all.

Anyways do I think of Argynnus and Agamemnon relationship as a potential? Sometimes yes I admit it has plenty of potential to explore (like imagine a younger Agamemnon and all hahaha) not always but sometimes I do hehe now the rest is up to you.

[glossahortensia]

DEAD MEN'S FOOD

LETTUCE Lactuca sativa L. (1753). Period English: lettuce. Period French: laitue f. Period German: Laktuk; Lattich m.; Salat m. L. sativa: Garten-Salat m. (’garden lettuce’). Sentiments: Refroidissement (‘Cooling, chilling’) Cold-hearted Let us forget Coldness

Ah, Lettuce.

Truly, what can one say? There it is, the humble lettuce. The bread of the salad. The leaf of the ground. The only reason I can pretend a fast food chicken wrap is ‘healthy’. The favourite sport of chewing pests in my garden. Not my favourite of the leafs (that would be tea, followed by spinach, I think). But certainly: a leaf.

When we speak of floriography in the modern day, there is a tendency to sell it as a ‘secret code’ delivered through careful sending of bouquets, and for that matter conducted all in flowers. People should generally be forgiven for thinking this - after all, it’s in the name, and many of these handbooks contain instructions for the hand delivery of flowers and how this affects their meaning - but it is largely untrue. I’m happy to be proven wrong about this, but I have yet to come across any work of fiction or documentary writing from the period depicting the practice, as the most condemning evidence. Another reason to think this is untrue is purely that these handbooks vary so wildly, and intentions could easily become confused. Perhaps one could send a bouquet with a book to be referenced by the receiver, but books were not cheap and that seems to be an outside possibility. And the last reason is, quite simply, that it’s not all flowers within.

There are those entries that are just unlikely or unpleasant inclusions for a bouquet - many will make mention of various fungi, toadstools, champignons, truffles and the like, and even the stinking land algae Nostoc, also known as ‘witch’s butter’ and infamous for growing in high-nitrogen environments such as graveyards (although in other traditions, such as in China, it is recognised for its nutritious culinary potential). Then we have entries that would cause harm to one receiving them, such as stinging nettles and poison ivy. Other entries are indeed flowers but would be impossible to integrate into a cut flower industry: wild arums (including those which smell like horse carcasses!), night blooming cacti, spring crocuses, belle de nuit, all flowers that fade after a single day, and sometimes do not even survive that. Last, there are entries that would be physically impossible to include in a bouquet, including giant flowers like Agave americana, with flower spikes up to 8 metres in height, and broad entries like ‘rose bush on a lawn’, all of which make it clear that the intent of floriography is more symbolic - to be integrated into poems, illustrations, decorations - than it is a literal guide to bouquet sending.

The lettuce strikes me as one of these entries. For one thing, it isn’t about lettuce flowers, which are quite lovely on their own, as lazy gardeners who have been given the mercy of the slugs will know.

It is hard to imagine receiving a bouquet with leaves of lettuce in it, but perhaps not harder than what that would signify: cold-heartedness. ‘To hell with you, have a limp shred of lettuce.’ Brutal. But all this is probably because lettuce as an emblem well predates the floriography handbooks of Glossa Hortensia.

Read about why the goddess of love and her slain paramour give this garden favourite a chilly reception in the language of flowers, this week on the Glossa Hortensia Substack and Patreon.

Dead Men's Food (Lettuce)

The goddess of love and her slain paramour give this garden favourite a chilly reception in the language of flowers.

[jeannereames]

"Nothing in the ancient sources says Alexander was gay!"

Oh? How about this?

φιλόπαις δ᾽ ἦν ἐκμανῶς καὶ Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ βασιλεύς.

"King Alexander was a quite mad boy-lover."

Probably better rendered, "King Alexander was exceptionally infatuated (mania) with boys."

*cough*

(Athen. 603a/13.80, as the preface before recounting one story from Dikaiarchos, a student of Aristotle, and another from Karystios of Pergamon, 2nd century BCE)

No, I wasn't out looking, but I've been reading through Athenaeus as part of the Hephastion-Krateros monograph research, and that was right there.

Yeah, Athenaeus isn't always trustworthy, a late author, but he's one of our major sources for a lot of fragments from earlier (especially Greek) historians now lost. For you Bagoas fans, btw, the first story mentions ATG's affection for Bagoas. The second story, from Karystios, related an incident at a banquet thrown by Krateros. The point of that story is to underscore Alexander's self-control with regard to sex and propriety. He could have demanded a kiss from the boy in question, but knew it would hurt the boy's lover (erastes), so turned it down.

The one issue with Athenaeus, even when he's "quoting" other historians--he's rarely-to-never ACTUALLY quoting them as we understand it. He's paraphrasing to suit the narrative he's telling at the moment. All of Book 13 is about eros.

The nuts who want the proof-texting neither understand nor care about the finer points of historiography. I doubt they've ever even HEARD of Athenaeus, although some have read the highly sanitized/moralizing of Plutarch on ATG's sexuality.

If you want to read the whole little section: Athenaeus 13.80 on Perseus

[red-moon-at-night]

Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 7.53 - ca. 228 CE 

This doesn't have any right to be as funny as it is, and yet here I am, laughing.

[the-puffinry]

sicilian pigeon migration festival? The smell of butter as a sign of a goddess? Jupiter changed into a pigeon?? More sicilian (sacred) dove favoritism?? this is so much fun to read about.

"And at Eryx in Sicily, there is a certain time which the Sicilians call The Departure, at which time they say that the Goddess is departing into Africa: and at this time all the pigeons about the place disappear, as if they had accompanied the Goddess on her journey. And after nine days, when the festival called καταγώγια, that is to say The Return, is celebrated, after one pigeon has first arrived, flying across the sea like an avant-courier, and has flown into the temple, the rest follow speedily. And on this, all the inhabitants around, who are comfortably off, feast; and the rest clap their hands for joy. And at that time the whole place smells of butter, which they use as a sort of token of the return of the Goddess. But Autocrates, in his history of Achaia, says that Jupiter once changed his form into that of a pigeon, when he was in love with a maiden in Aegium, whose name was Phthia. But the Attic writers use the word also in the masculine gender, περιστερός. Alexis, in his People Running together, says—

For I am the white pigeon (περιστερὸς) of Venus; But as for Bacchus, he knows nothing more Than how to get well drunk; and nothing cares Whether 'tis new wine that he drinks or old.

[p. 623] But in his play of the Rhodian, or the Woman Caressing, he uses the word in the feminine gender; and says in that passage that the Sicilian pigeons are superior to all others—

Breeding within some pigeons from Sicily, The fairest shaped of all their species.

[...]

And Nicander, in the second book of his Georgics, mentions the Sicilian doves and pigeons, and says,—

And do you in your hall preserve a flock Of fruitful doves from Sicily or Dracontium, For it is said that neither kites nor hawks Incline to hurt those choice and sacred birds.

from The Deipnosophists by Athenaeus (late 2nd to early 3rd century CE).

[blackswaneuroparedux]

τρεῖς γὰρ μόνους κρατῆρας ἐγκεραννύω τοῖς εὖ φρονοῦσι· τὸν μὲν ὑγιείας ἕνα, ὃν πρῶτον ἐκπίνουσι

- Athenaeus

I prescribe only three bowls of wine For people of good sense. One is for health, to drink first.

[jeannereames]

Part 2 of “How Do You Know That (About Alexander the Great)?!” An ancient historian talks about where we get our information on the conqueror, and whether or not to trust it. #alexanderthegreat #ancientgreece #ancientmacedonia #classicstok #classics #ancienthistory #alexanderofmacedon #alexanderthegreatsources #jeannereames #alexanderthemakingofagod

The second of two Tiktok posts wherein I discuss the ancient sources on Alexander the Great. In this one, I discuss the extant (still existing) sources, the biographies/histories and a few other places we find him such as Polyaenus, Athenaeus, Plutarch's Moralia essays.

[ronnydeschepper]

Twintig jaar geleden: artikel over Sotades, de eerste pornograaf

Twintig jaar geleden verscheen voor het eerst een artikel over Sotades, de eerste pornograaf, in the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology. Continue reading Twintig jaar geleden: artikel over Sotades, de eerste pornograaf

Twintig jaar geleden: artikel over Sotades, de eerste pornograaf