#ovid

[surelyangelic]

if you hate on ovid on my dash you're getting blocked btw ovid is my close personal friend

[surelyangelic]

something else i'm obsessed with: how incredibly sympathetic ovid can be towards victims of sexual assault. he gets a ton of undue slander online from people i suspect have not read any of his work, certainly not meaningfully, and within that he gets accused of misogyny n awful lot. both "misogyny" and "feminism" are modern concepts that rely on an understanding of gender quite different to that of imperial rome, but i'll entertain it nonetheless because the hate does irk me a lot.

a great example of this is the sabine women. it's a part of roman foundational legend, in which after the city is founded, they need women to continue the line, and basically steal them from a neighbouring settlement. it is not a positive tradition at all, and i think a lot of roman writers were very aware of that. in his ab urbe condita, livy presents it (ickkkk) as a necessary evil:

and now the roman state was become so powerful, that it was a match for any of the neighbouring nations in war, but, from the paucity of women, its greatness could only last for one age of man; for they had no hope of issue at home, nor had they any intermarriages with their neighbours. therefore, by the advice of the fathers, romulus sent ambassadors to the neighbouring states to solicit an alliance and the privilege of intermarriage for his new subjects. "that cities, like every thing else, rose from very humble beginnings. that those which the gods and their own merit aided, gained great power and high renown." (ab urbe condita 9)

it gets presented as something that is normal and necessary for the foundation of rome. romulus is presented as the righteous and pious one, while those who reject the notion are a rabble of youths who don't know better yet. the women are barely present and are presented even as willing because of the renown of the romans.

ovid, on the other hand, is far more concerned with the suffering of the women. the way that marriage and relationships are treated by the state is the very crux of his gripes with augustus, and that is most clearly represented in the wonderfully colourful ars amatoria. here's what he says in there about the sabine women:

amongst the applause (applause that was never artful then) the king gave the watched-for signal for the rape. they sprang up straightaway, showing their intent by shouting, and eagerly took possession of the women. as doves flee the eagle, in a frightened crowd, as the new-born lamb runs from the hostile wolf: so they fled in panic from the lawless men, and not one showed the colour she had before. (ars amatoria 1)

it goes on way past this with more of the same, but you get the gist. ovid is focused entirely on the suffering and unwillingness of the women, giving them agency and not allowing patriotism to cloud his judgement. most interestingly, he refers to his own countrymen as "sine more", translated by kline here as "lawless" but literally "without restraint". it's worlds away from livy's and it's quite unique in that way.

this is your timely reminder to take ovid more seriously, he's amazing. top 10 poets of all time anywhere and i will not allow you all to deny yourself such an incredible catalogue over a misguided tumblr post you read.

[astrodarlings]

Not enough people are aware that Orpheus becomes a pedophile post-Eurydice and I just think that should be discussed more

[surelyangelic]

vati parete perito; vera canam: coeptis, mater Amoris, ades!

" submit to the expert poet; i sing true: mother of love, support my endeavour! "

- ovid, ars amatoria 1

[shadesofc001]

[apollon-emos]

Without limit the greedy flames devour his vitals; the dark sweat pours from his whole body; his burnt sinews crackle and, while his very marrow melts with the hidden, deadly fire, he stretches suppliant hands to heaven and cries: “Come, feast, Saturnia, upon my destruction; feast, I say; look down, thou cruel one, from thy lofty seat, behold my miserable end, and glut thy savage heart! Or, if I merit pity even from my enemy—that is, from thee—take hence this hateful life, sick with its cruel sufferings and born for toil. Death will be a boon to me, surely a fitting boon for a stepmother to bestow! Was it for this I slew Busiris, who defiled his temples with strangers’ blood? that I deprived the dread Antaeus of his mother’s strength? that I did not fear the Spanish shepherd’s1 triple form, nor thy triple form, O Cerberus? Was it for this, O hands, that you broke the strong bull’s horns? that Elis knows your toil, the waves of Stymphalus, the Parthenian woods? that by your prowess the gold-wrought girdle of Thermodon was secured, and that fruit guarded by the dragon’s sleepless eyes? Was it for this that the centaurs could not prevail against me, nor the boar that wasted Arcady? that it did not avail the hydra to grow by loss and gain redoubled strength? What, when I saw the Thracian’s horses fat with human blood and those mangers full of mangled corpses and, seeing, threw them down and slew the master and the steeds themselves? By these arms the monster of Nemea lies crushed; upon this neck I upheld the sky! The cruel wife of Jove is weary of imposing toils; but I am not yet weary of performing them. But now a strange and deadly thing is at me, which neither by strength can I resist, nor yet by weapons nor by arms. Deep through my lungs steals the devouring fire, and feeds through all my frame. But Eurystheus is alive and well! And are there those who can believe that there are gods?”

Ovid, Metamorphoses tr. Frank Justus Miller. Book 9 lines 175-204.

[evilios]

"Ferte deae flores: gaudet florentibus herbis haec dea" is still the prettiest thing I've read about Juno (Lucina).

[giggling-joyously]

all of you are making one big mistake when discussing the iphis and ianthe story from ovid’s metamorphoses and that is assuming it has to be either a lesbian story or a trans man story. I see people talk about it like it has to be either one or the other and theres no room for nuance or an in between. this is a really complicated story, especially considering the context of when and who it was written by. there is no correct, definitive answer. we’ll never know what ovid intended. there is valid arguments for iphis being a lesbian. there is valid arguments for iphis being a trans man. there is valid arguments for iphis being something else entirely. there is no one, correct, black and white answer, and if you discuss it like there is, you won’t get anywhere.